by Anonymous

Op-Ed: Don’t Sign Your College Funds Away

I’m what you’d call an average older Chassidishe Bochur. I was never planning on going to college, but life threw me a curve ball and – with the green light from my Mashpia – I’m pursuing a degree in accounting.

My college is in New York City and has no dorms, because everyone is from the city. It is part online classes and part real classrooms. It is primarily a Frum atmosphere, with separate days for boys and girls, so it has none of the issues for which the Rebbe opposed out-of-town universities: Ta’aruvos of boys and girls, pressure to believe Apikursis, challenges in keeping kosher etc.

It is ultimately, however, L’mudey Chol, which I was told is permitted for me since I’m learning a trade. It seems this is becoming more and more common, even among chassidishe bochurim and girls, especially as Shlichus becomes less and less of an option.

I work hard to pay for my tuition. Dating is quite an expense too, and my parents are in no position to help. (Why the guy pays everything in the Frum world instead of splitting it 50/50 is beyond me, but that will have to be another Op-Ed.) The tuition costs really pile up, and sometimes I’m even late with my rent.

But it didn’t have to be this way. The Federal government pays thousands of dollars for any American who wants to go to college. All the Ba’al Teshuvas in my class who never went to Yeshiva didn’t pay a penny.

So why, you ask, am I not getting this money? It’s because when I was a young Yeshiva Bochur, without any intent of going to college in my wildest dreams, some guy from the administration came over to me with a form and said “Here, sign this.” I complied, not knowing the difference. Later, someone explained to me that the Yeshiva would get Federal money for my “rabbinical college” education (in addition to the tuition they charged my parents).

Boruch Hashem, for college I was able to get a little bit of money from NY State’s TAP fund (Thank G-d this institution isn’t yet approved for that funding), but I got no federal money – which is the bulk of governmental financial assistance.

So my advice to whoever is reading this is as follows: You never know where life will bring you. A college education is an option you should always hold on to in today’s world. Don’t sign your money away just because some guy told you to. It’s your money, and you should keep it saved until you really need it for its intended purpose – like getting an education to be able to support your family. Trust me.

64 Comments

  • Good luck

    Good point thanks for bringing up.
    My son went to Yeshiva and now has no fafsa money. Ganuvim they are.

  • ploni almoni

    It seems that the writer does not realize that the Yeshivah is a recognized school of higher education, and is entitled to get paid tution . these funds are there for the student who wishes to go to a yeshivah to help him pay his tuition and room and board.
    If the writer would after HS had decided to go to college to study accounting and graduate, he could of course use these funds to pay his tuition, but if afterwards he he decides to go to law school the funds would not be available since he paid his accounting school with it.\
    This Bochur reminds me of the bochur he did not want to give up his room in the Yeshivah dormitory after he got married because in 2 years around he may Chas v’sholom’ get divorced and need a place where to stay.

    • ploni, get the facts straight please

      I had to pay full tuition for my son to go to Beis Midrash.
      No, I wasn’t rich.
      Yes I qualified for the PELL grant. So why did I have to pay full tuition?
      The first year I was naive and signed the forms. But when I was notified that even though we qualified for a grant of several thousand dollars, I was still required to pay the full tuition, I balked.
      The administration told me that the money from the Pell grant had NOTHING TO DO with my son. It was my obligation to sign the papers and the yeshiva would use the scholarship funds to pay for the Israelis in kevutza.
      They also told my son to sign up for the work study program, and the bulk of the money would go to support kevutza, and he would get a pittance of it as pocket money.
      Well that was the last time I agreed to sign the forms. I was anyway paying full tuition. And it wasn’t going to help me. Yeshiva retaliated and wouldn’t release his transcripts,
      which was a blessing in disguise. Now, officially, my son didn’t have a college degree, even though he had smicha. So he was able to go to college with pell funding after all.

  • 100% right

    I agree 100 percent with the writer.
    Yes, you should choose where you “entitled” money goes.
    But please next time pay full tuition to the Yeshiva of at least 18,000 to cover all the expenses and salaries.

    • Yeshivas

      If the yeshivas give a quality religious education at the same level then they deserve the 18k. Last time I checked they don’t.

  • Lets get real

    Did the writer pay full tuition for Yeshiva??
    Gotta love these people who ask for every break possible, with yeshivas having them at a loss,, than complain when yeshiva asks them for their federal grants.

  • College Student

    100000% agree.
    The same goes for girls going to Seminary. While you can get some college credits from Seminary, many colleges will NOT accept them. You lose an entire years worth of college funding by using your Federal Financial Aid on Seminary.
    Often, the colleges Frum girls/boys decide to attend are in NY. Not all of us are from NY and this poses the challenge of living costs when we cannot stay with family.
    Great point! So glad you brought this up!
    Be financially wary. Invest in yourself carefully!

  • Been there

    I had the same issue but did not sign the last time, so I somehow had FAFSA help me through college. The yeshiva gets credit for not forging my signature.

  • Anonymous

    “so it has none of the issues for which the Rebbe opposed out-of-town universities”

    The Rebbe opposed all universaties!

  • someone who knew differently

    so true. do not sign away your pell grants for yeshiva. keep kodesh and chol separate. the yeshivos can badger your parents for tuition (everyone gets reduced tuition, yeshiva won’t deny you a seat based on how much u owe them COLLEGE WILL).

  • Israel

    Many yeshivas depend on that fafsa money. If you didnt sign it your parents would be charged more

  • And Now, For The Complete Story...

    I personally agree with the author that bochurim must keep an open mind about their future.

    However, having worked in adult education for a number of years, I can tell you the following:

    1) As the author correctly wrote, yeshivas have not been able to take NY TAP finds until recently.

    Even now that they can, very few do (for various reasons).

    Therefore, bochurim should not have ‘used up’ their TAP funds.

    2) There is a 6 year maximum allowance for PELL.

    Therefore, if a yeshiva took 2 years worth of PELL, the bochur should still be ok with PELL for 4 years of college.

    Of course, today there are top notch and very frum Accounting programs where you can complete your entire degree in just 2 years (-notably, Cope Institute in Boro Park which has many Chabad graduates who are now CPAs).

    Therefore, even if the yeshiva took 4 years of PELL, the remaining 2 years of Accounting school can still be covered.

    Having said that, the author should keep in mind that 770 does not charge tuition and relies on the PELL funds to cover costs.

    Bochurim choose how serious they spend their time in 770. Many take advantage of the staff that are there (both the mashpiim and shoel u’meishiv). Others also rely on 1414 for their meals etc etc.

    Of course, please keep in mind that 770 can issue you college credits (only if you apply for PELL!) which can decrease your college years!!

    I therefore do not think the yeshivas are unjustified in taking the PELL funds to cover your ‘tuition’ (which is exactly what PELL funds are for).

    • anon

      770 should straighten out their books, and also become more transparent, then they can start talking about paying their expenses.

    • And Now, For The Complete Story...

      True words. Because of 770’s credits I was able to shave off more than a year of college because of the credits I earned there.

      So, using this bocher’s own logic, quite the contrary! By signing the pell forms you ARE loking ahead and preparing for your future.

      And, my firends who went to cope’s accounting school all told me they had no issue of being max out because of yeshiva.

    • Wow

      Many Schools won’t take tour Pell grant after 4 years. For instance touro would only except Pell grant if you did not use it for two years.
      BTW many yeshiva’s take a year and a half worth of fafsa for one school year.

      Thanks

  • 2 points

    1. You applaud yourself for being a self-described “chassidisher bachur”, and point out not only that you consulted with your mashpiah before deciding that it’s okay to learn a trade, but you also provided a full accounting as to his reasoning, etc. If I may, I’m curious to know if this same mashpiah was consulted prior to the publishing of this uninformed op-ed, and if indeed he or she was, perhaps you can provide the same detailed accounting as to the reasoning.

    2. You bemoan the fact that it is incumbent on the boy/bachur to incur the costs of dating, etc. Firstly this is completely aligned with the halachic priciple of דרכו של איש לילך אחר אשה. Yet even more importantly, we must ask, is this movement to “do as they do” regarding this issue and so many more, not a blatant violation of לא תלכו בחוקת הגוי? Perhaps your mashpiah can help you gain some clarity here too. We can all benefit from such insight.

    Gut shabbos.

    • Milhouse is wrong

      You bemoan the fact that it is incumbent on the boy/bachur to incur the costs of dating, etc. Firstly this is completely aligned with the halachic priciple of דרכו של איש ל.

      ((Wow big lumdes so maybe every 15 of av we should gather all the woman in a field …))

      Yet even more importantly, we must ask, is this movement to “do as they do” regarding this issue and so many more, not a blatant violation of לא תלכו בחוקת הגוי?

      ((Or perhaps its bederch hahigoyon which just happens to be something the secular world caught on before you ))

      Perhaps your mashpiah can help you gain some clarity here too. We can all benefit from such insight

      ((did you consult your mashpia prior to writing this comment?))

      ((Gut vuch))

  • How can the Yeshivas survive?

    Dear Author,

    It’s seems you want to pursue a career in accounting but ask yourself an accounting question first. You say in your article that your parents can’t assist you financially that is why you got permission from your “Mashpia” to go to school ! Good for you!! If your parents can’t assist in paying tuition why then do you burden the Yeshiva to pay for you?? Yes! Every yid must be allowed and learn in a yeshiva environment but how do you expect the yeshiva to survive with out parents like your not paying for your Jewish Education??!!! All what the yeshiva is asking for is to provide them the necessary funds that are simply owed to them!!! So before you go on and complain about yeshivas asking for your PELL OR FAFSA just remember they too are a Educational system that must get paid!!!

    After you graduate imyh and need to enroll your future children to these schools I hope by then you would have a clear understanding of what our Moisdos go through to get funding to pay for children like you.

  • side note

    A gentleman pays for the woman on a date- across all cultures that is the proper way.

  • good points

    well made point, however many baalei tshuva save up and pay for college or take loans just like the general population

  • Great Article!

    My school charged me a 5,000.00 dollar bill at the end of my first year because my FAFSA was withdrawn by the government!

    And yes, thank G-d for TAP which the Yeshiva’s cannot touch!

  • Why Do You Love Socialism?

    Why does the government have to take care of you? Everybody complains that there is too much government involvement in people’s lives, government is too big, taxes are too high.
    But everybody wants a check from the government.
    Everybody says “I am against socialism” but everybody wants the government to give them Medicaid, Section 8, Food Stamps, and tuition money.
    So are you a socialist or a Republican? Make up your mind. Don’t take government money. Just because others do the same does not make it right.

    • Milhouse

      When a mugger empties your wallet, and then offers you a $20 so you can get home safely, do you turn it down?! The government should not be taxing us to give our money to other people; but so long as it is taxing us, we’d be stupid to turn down any money it offers us in return. How would it be any better if everyone else got that money and not us?

  • To Mr. Collage Professor

    I understand your frustration now a bit . I’d like you to do some research now. Please ask your parents if they paid full ttuition all the years that you went to elementary school and Mesivta? They may have Evan left a balance?? Did they pay full tuition when you attended post HS aka. Zaal ?? Fafsa is there to help your parents pay the tuition they could not!! Yeshivas cost money too, Evan if you were no thrilled to be there. The fact is , you were .

    • Because

      I did pay full tuition! And the pell grant didn’t help me one bit, because the yeshiva refused to credit my account with the thousands they received!

      Since I was being helped by various g’virim and loans, they said I had to collect and pay the full amount,
      and the money we received from PELL was going to be used to cover for boys whose parents wouldn’t or couldn’t go around collecting from g’virim to cover the costs.

  • Yossi Ginzberg

    Yeshiva also have expenses, and when many if not most bochurim cannot pay tuition, it is the government that provides funding through these programs. Yes, in some cases that turns out to be unfair, but that’s the way it is, so deal with it.
    There is other funding available, as you can usually find out through the college financial aid office.
    For certification programs like COPE accounting courses, or dozens of other possible careers, I have funds to give away, as several hundred Crown Heights anash have found.
    I can be reached weekday working hours at 347.749.1042.

  • Yeshiva

    I did not qualify for the grants when my son finished yeshiva and smeicha and I asked for his transcripts they told me oh you have to pay for the transcripts not included in your tuition. That degree is May be one of higher learning it will not get you a real
    Job or anything piece of paper, I keep saying the system for boys does not prepare them for life , looks at our boys walking the streets spaced out from drugs , get them
    Into a real program early enough so they will be productive adults not depending on the welfare food stamps and rent subsidy program.

  • Classic Half-Empty Personality

    And once he’s an accountant he’ll probably complain that he accounts for everyone else’s money but doesn’t have enough of his own.

  • Yitzchok

    To 2 points,
    Why the cynicism? The sarcasm and the low blows have no place in Yiddishkeit. Uproot this bad Middoh.
    I do agree with your second point, but it would be a lot more Miskabel if you would say it nicely and with respect.

  • Anonymous

    I am a BT and have a university degree and received absolutely no govt aid! It’s not true that all BTs didn’t pay for college… It depends on your income bracket and an array of other things

    I also was raised in the secular world and males pay traditionally for the women.. It’s not just a frum thing…

  • your parents did this

    Fafsa is based on your parents income and they provided their tax forms to your yeshiva specifically for Pell money. So complain to them first.
    Next, the yeshiva makes up transcripts to show your college progress.
    Michigan Jewish Institute is in big legal troubles for this right now.
    If your yeshiva said you graduated, the government assumes you now have a B.A., so you aren’t entitled to money for graduate school. Pell is only for undergraduate school.

  • Anonymous

    When I was a bochur in 1414 they charged the Americans $200 rent each month. I paid it diligently, a few months after I moved in they started requesting that I come sign the Pell grant papers. I explained in a nice manner that for private reasons I am not able to register for the Pell grant. The office on Eastern Parkway was very disappointed. I continued to pay my monthly rent to the 1414 office… They started putting notices on my door that if I don’t sign the Pell grant papers I must move out… I explained my situation again but they refused and said it does not matter if you pay $200 each month if you don’t sign you must move out! A few days later I come into my room (it was during chanuka) and my mattress was taken away! The administrator of 1414 ordered the bochur who works for him to remove my bedding and take away the mattress! I was forced to move into a basement that evening….

    Now you would think the story ends there…
    The next month the Yeshiva continued to charge my credit card $200, I contacted them and they refused to refund me saying that really I owe the Yeshiva $5000+… I disputed the charge.

    Now just so you know, %75 of 1414 who are Israeli don’t even pay $200 they hardly pay anything…

    Basically they the money from all Americans to cover the Kvutzah costs…

  • My Experience

    As mentioned by a previous poster, 6 years of Pell grant are available. Most bochurim only attend yeshivos that can use the grant for two years of their Yeshivah career. This should leave 4 more years that can be used for further education down the line. Some semicha programs also take Pell but this should still leave 3 years worth of tuition available for further pursuits.

    The areas where OP’s message is appropriate is with regard to:
    1. Yeshiva’s that take Pell in addition to FULL tuition (ie. not “fully paid discounted fees” + Pell) – it is reasonable to refuse to sign.
    2. Yeshiva’s that take bochurim as Shluchim or dorm counselors and take their Pell grant – it is reasonable to refuse to sign
    3. Bochurim who are registered in 770 but do not stay in the dorm, eat the food or participate in any shiurim but do sit and learn – don’t sign up for 770 in the first place if you are receiving no benefit from doing so.

    In my personal experience, I was part of the old system where Pell was available for 8 years. I had two years of Pell left and had to pay the rest of my college fees out of pocket which was not easy. I fit in groups 2 and 3 listed above, and had I followed these steps I would have had my entire degree covered.

    Also, in response to another poster, there is a limit to how much yeshivah credits can reduce the length of your degree. I received 23 credits – about 3/4 of a years worth – but still had to do a full 120 credits because my specific degree requirements were not satisfied by yeshivah credits.

  • I believe the author...

    I believe the author, was merely expressing, that Yeshivos thus far, don’t make the students or parents aware of the limited nature of the grants they are accepting (PEL, etc.). Because college wasn’t a very popular option in the Lubavitch world (“necessity is indeed the mother of invention”!), it never mattered and no one was the wiser. Times have changed (or maybe more accurately, “changed back”), and therefore, “buyer beware!”

    • Due to Lack of Education

      Mr #42,
      My question is posed:
      If you were able to afford full tuition, how could you qualify for financial aid?

  • Why?

    You don’t know what your talking about – but it was a nice attempt. Schools don’t manipulate you to sign anything they get funding bc they were inspected and approved and your parents payed half the amount of tuition bc this supplemented the rest.

    For someone as educated as you – before starting a revolution you should have inquired first and then you would not have needed this article.

    Hatzlacha in your studies and dating.

    • Because

      I paid FULL tuition. No Discount. I qualified for PELL, and was awarded thousands of dollars – all of which went to pay for OTHER people’s children. It did not help reduce my tuition by even 5 cents!

  • 770 gives a digree

    770 gives a degree and so does morristown. I use morristown’s digree which uses 770 credits to get into Grad school. Great Party Colleges!

    I agree the system gives 0 skills. Then at the dinners they claim the success of their alumni. The success of shluchim or any alumni is “despite” the the sub 0 education. Parents and students got to wise up.

    Congratulations for finally educating yourself.

    Hatslocha!

    • Wow degree

      I am sure in college they don’t teach how to spell.
      On the other hand, 770 won’t give a degree to someone who did not get semicha by rabbi labkowsky I was a student in 770 for 4 years and was not eligible for a degree

    • Touro

      The touro policy is not so simple, you only get 12 credits per YEAR. Also the classea must be in advanced Talmud or other specific classes

  • Yitzchok

    I have no problem with the Yeshiva taking in Pel Grant $ as Tuition. However if we are to cooperate with the Yeshiva and considering that this amounts to Millions of dollars yearly, we have a right to know, exactly where this money goes.

    The Yeshiva has been using the 770 Shull for decades without paying even one cent for rent for use of the shull. The Yeshiva doesn’t even pay for the Electric bill, during the summer which costs the shull $25,000 a month for the AC, which is why 770 is not Air Conditioned properly during the summer, because the Yeshiva refuses to pay even one cent for the AC.

    So what does the Yeshiva do with the Millions of $ in the Pel Grant?

    The Yeshiva doesn’t even pay any of their staff properly, nor on time. All Yeshiva staff of 770 are about 2 years behind in their salary. The check they get payed, this week, is what was owed to them from 2 years ago.

    Not even one Israeli Bochur gets in without paying top dollar for the dorm and food.

    So where do all the millions of $ go to?

    Even 10% of all the Pel grant money should be more than enough to pay for the 770 AC and for Salaries, on time.

    The public deserves to know exactly how much money they rake in and exactly where the money went to.

    The same goes not only for 770 but also for B.R. and O.T.

    • Due to Lack of Education

      Yitzchok,

      Your assertions are based on speculation and therefore not viable data points.
      If you have ever owned a business or even operated one, you should know that calculating overhead is never as simple as 1-2-3.
      Additionally, you seem to know how much money is in someone else’s pocket; not everything is as it seems.
      I can elaborate more, but I will let some others put in a word or two.

  • Point number x

    1. I know someone who was made to sign it too and is in a messed situation because of it..

    2. Guy pays for girl on a date! It costs but that’s called being a gentleman. It’s how it’s done. Show me you’re stingy, and I say bye bye

  • Ch resident

    The money is used for the following.
    1. Pay for all the fines the yeshiva recieves on 749 eastern parkway caused by kvutzah.
    For those who are uninformed there was an illegal kitchen/restaurant operated by the kvutzah besides for other fines. These are all violations caused by kvutzah.
    2. Pay for the crown heights public Mikveh operating out of 749 Eastern parkway. Expenses such as gas electricity ect.
    3. Paying for lawyers to defend the yeshiva on Kaporos charges that took place in front of 1414 president street.

    None of these expenses are from income generated to the yeshiva however the yeshiva needs to finance each project. Now is the time to have the people responsible to pay for their own costs the yeshiva will have enough income from federal money.

  • Dovid

    Kuddos the the writer of this article.

    Dating and tuition are two separate discussions and are not connected.

    My comments are regarding the Pell Grant section.

    To all the commenters who are saying that the Yeshivas need the money.

    Morristown took my Pell Grant when I was on Shlichus, even though I did not sign the form. When I asked them to give me a BA, they said that according to the rules I had to learn two years in Mo-town to get the BA. They were happy to illegally steal my Pell Grant for an extra year, but when it came to give the credits, they didn’t consider that extra year ‘learning in Morristown’.

    In addition, plenty of Yeshivas in the U.S. send money to Israeli Yeshivas and split the Pell Grant with the Israeli Yeshivas, even though the Bochur is not learning in the U.S. Yeshiva. A U.S. bochur learning in Israel with the Pell Grant will pay close to the same amount as a UK bochur.

    More so, the price difference between a U.S. bochur and a non-U.S. bochur in an American yeshiva does not take the Pell Grant in account.

    In most of these cases the price is almost the same.

    Another point:

    Yeshivas will skirt the law to receive these grants, but do not easily give out degrees. They also create systems to ensure that the bochur needs to stay in the system as long as possible to receive the degree.

    770 requires 5 years of studying in Yeshiva.

    Mo-town requires at least 2 years in Mo-town, not counting shlichus (this was a few years ago, I do believe Mo-town is even stricter now).

    Other Yeshivas do the same.

    Although Universities also have minimum guidelines, let’s face it. The Yeshiva system allows students to move from one Yeshiva to another and Halacha demands it if a student is not getting the right education at one Yeshiva, he MUST move to another Yeshiva. So, there is no excuse for those guidelines in a Yeshiva system.

    The reason for this is that the heads of Yeshivas do not believe in college, and therefore do not make a system that enables a bochur to go to college afterwards.

    The result in all this, is that many Bochurim who could have skipped a BA and gone straight to a Masters (i.e. many law degrees can use a Yeshiva BA), sit extra time in college.

    In addition to the time this wastes, an extra few years in college can completely change a Bochurs belief system.

    Unfortunately, in todays age, college is often a necessary evil, but is it necessary to make it even worse???? Are Yeshivas ready to take responsibility for Bochurim breaking Torah???? Are our Yeshivas even mature enough to realize the result of the actions that they take????

    Unfortunately, I know the answer to that……

  • As if

    You make as if yeshiva are so expensive in the first place that now they come along and stral your pell grant as well go compare the prices to any private most private colleges then stop complaining. Also wait until your in the shoes of a mosid and have to run a chabad house or school or any mosid for that matter they’re definitly not rolling in the money from it trust me

    • Running a business

      When you run a business you can’t just charge someone full price in cash, and than charge their credit card for double the amount just because they have a credit card

    • Milhouse

      They are not charging full price. If they got full price from people they wouldn’t need this money.

    • @ running a business

      Like millhouse said most yeshivos arent charging that much in the first place even if you pay full tuition

  • Even worse

    We paid full tuition in sfas. My son without our knowledge was forced to sign a paper.
    We found out later the yeshiva forged papers and sent to Masa. Got money from them and never told us. Stealing?

    • @ even worse

      Forging papers is a whole different story. I’d have to beleive that mist yeshivos dont do that

  • TAP

    Yeshivas now CAN access TAP funds as well. Just making you aware. ( since last year)

  • Ch resident wrote

    What justifies 770 for them to take 50% of my Pell grant money and only credit my local Yeshiva half the money with the justification it goes for the administrative work in getting the grant?