Third Beis Din Rules, You Don’t Need To Listen to Second Beis Din

In yet another twist, a third Beis Din just weighed in on the Rabbanite dispute in Crown Heights at the request of the Vaad Hakohol chairman Zaki Tamir, and his ruling states that a second Beis Din has no right to mix in. This ruling would seemingly clear the way for Rabbi Yosef Braun to take up his position on the Crown Heights Beis Din.

The ruling came out from the Beis Din Tzefek Orchois Mishpot and was signed by Rabbi Yehuda Yerachmiel Gruber.

36 Comments

  • 1. one sided wrote:

    The question is, was this a din torah of two sides or just zaki saying his side?

  • 2. dan wrote:

    they claim after the bes din of 5 ruled the problem is no bes din of 5 ruled it was just rabbi rosenberg who himself said he is not sure if brin is a real rov!!

  • 3. agree wrote:

    i agree with im only the bes din of 5 should rule so why did rosenberg put out his own psak without the other 4?

  • 5. Psak? wrote:

    The Beth Din of five never ruled.

    Is above Psak based on a Din Torah or only Zaki Tamirs account of things?

  • 6. missing rabonim wrote:

    Why didn’t all five Rabbis sign, didn’t each side pay $150,000 ($300,000 together), I think that would warrens that all five would make an effort to sign.

    Where are the five anyways?

  • 8. joe doe wrote:

    If the 2nd bais din can’t mix in. Then why is he mixing in? This whole thing is a purim shpil.

  • 9. A saddened member Anash wrote:

    Regardless, the “appointment” is STILL tainted. Mr. or Rabbi Braun (whatever he is) should realize this. Because there is simply a large segment of this community who will never accept him because of the circumstances. Go ahead, let him be part of our Beis Din (bring more shame to our Rebbe), and it will be the laughing stock of New York.

    Maybe in a few years, this community will have had enough, we’ll elect a new va’ad hakohol and maybe we’ll fire a couple of Rabbis.

  • 10. Kaker Tamir wrote:

    Nice
    The zaki aka kaki aka kaker tamir got the lyozner pots hiz brother in law to have the Williamsburg rabbi mix with him and his boss sam ther ganif chanin

  • 11. Milhouse wrote:

    This letter is mezuyaf mitocho. I don’t know what lies Tamir told this rabbi, but the representatives of each shul and beis medrash did NOT sign the shtar berurin. And the legal action taken by the plaintiffs in the beis din of Agudas Horabonim was initiated well BEFORE the so-called “coronation” and “installation” of the purported third rail, oops, I mean rabbi. If the writer is so ignorant of the facts, then his opinion means nothing.

  • 12. Wake Up wrote:

    He is a Rov, He isn’t a Rov. He has Smicha, He doesn’t Have Smicha.

    How does it make any deference for any of us bottom line? Was there a Purim Seuda this year? How many people did the CHJCC help in the last ten mounts?

    We are so busy with Zaki’s non-sense. Instead of doing what he was elected to do, and that is to HELP OUT THE RESIDENTS of Crown Heights literally, Zaki’s buddied up with the same people we threw out in the last election. Zaki’s is continuing their steak of Machlokes. Finding distractions instead of doing what needs to be done.

    Not Osdobo, Schwei and or Bruan make any difference to anybody’s bottom line. They cant help anybody financially. They cant get food on your table or the table of those who need it. They cant find the unemployed a job. They cant help anybody with any legal or law matters. ALL they can do is collect a pay check.

    People its time to start directing the criticisms on ones that need to get it, That is Zaki Tamir and his crew. Take you heads out of the sand or stop rolling in the mud. Zaki and His friends are enjoying accumulative grants of up to TEN million dollars a year.

    You have broken windows at home? need to winterize your house? The Community Council Gets money for that. Your family or a neighbors is in distress about to fall apart? The Community Council Gets money for that. Have a son or know a teen whose on drugs or alcohol and needs desperate help? The Community Council Gets money for that. Cant find a job; need job training? Cant pay rent and need help? Became a victim and need emotional help? You guessed it, the Community Council Gets money for that.

    The individuals who have been raving up the Machlokes all these years, and been telling you look over there, its Rubashkin, Shomrim, and Fisher. They tell you cant eat this Hechsher or go to that Purim Seuda. Its this guy who stole its that guy whose making trouble. They find every distraction possible. They are the ones “Fighting for the Community” and fighting for “Achdus”. They tell you to look everywhere but at them.

    Residents of Crown Heights, it’s time to bring it to an end. Open your eyes and see what going on. 20 years they have been generating false controversy and fleeing with OUR money, money for every resident who might need it.

    Zaki Tamir got elected and just fell right in-line, right into their big picture of events and started doing all their biddings.

  • 13. Who else thinks this is a big joke wrote:

    I mean do they honestly expect us to take the “leadership” seriously when nobody can get their act together?

  • 14. Laaniyas Dayti wrote:

    Millhouse has it correctly analyzed.

    This is the personal psak of one Rov, on the stationary of a Beis Din, who paskened a shayla as if he was dan din le’amitasoy.

    Wait till:
    ……….Rosenberg sees this (he is praying for Kraus Beis Din to clear his name and/or access to Gan Eden;
    ……….Williamsburg finds out that one of their own is supporting the Meschichisten.

    It is time for someone to ask a Beis Din for permission to file suit in a Court of (secular) Law for Election Fraud in a Municipality (Crown Height)s. It may need to be a tort case rather than a statutory breach of law..

  • 15. sholom wrote:

    WHY SHOULD WE LISTEN RABBONIM AFTER ALL THIS SHTUSIM AND ARGUMENTS….???

  • 16. Tosahv wrote:

    The Ikul should be given to whomever wants to sign, we will have over 1500 if not more residents signing.

  • 17. logicimpaired wrote:

    So let me get this straight, an outside beis din rules that an outside beis din has no right to rule on crown heights matters … does anyone else see the flaw in this logic?

  • 18. Bein Gavrah wrote:

    Time for a mass rally downstairs, and a 1,000+ petition for a referendum and election.

  • 19. antimesira wrote:

    I don’t understand what Zaki Tamir and gang are worried about.

    If their man Braun has Smicha and hes a real Rov they should be more then excited to come to a Din Torah to prove their case.

    Imagine they have a full fledged Din Torah on the matters of Corruption and Fraud and it turns out that Braun is OK (a real Rov), who has not done any wrong.

    But that is not the case, for the obvious reason they are afraid of a full fledged Din Torah.

  • 20. elan wrote:

    lets asume rabbi broun was a rabbi would he not want for the sake of the rebbes comunity to just step down and give up his kovod that there should be peace in crown heights and that would show that he is worthy of being rov we really need moshiach now ad mosai !

  • 21. yossi wrote:

    the saddest part of all of this is that zaki runs to boropark to his brother n law Shaul Shimon Deutsch for advice and who in this comunity wants a guy that wrote a book against the rebbe giving advice on the rebbes comunity

  • 22. Nothing has changed wrote:

    If you try to bring the two sides together it won’t work or happen.
    You are waisting your time. There has been more than two sides for
    over 40 years that I can remember, but you just kept sweeping it
    under the carpet. Now it is out for the whole world to see. I tell
    all the people at farbrengens that I speak at or attend, GIMMEL
    TAMUZ didn’t change anything. Believers on one side, and anti’s
    on the other, thats just fine.

  • 24. old timer wrote:

    Es steit meir nit oun that williamsburg will rule on something for us. Would they ever come to us to rule for them? This is the reason williamsburg on purim laughed at lubavitch etc.
    please through everyone out start a new community council, new rabbonim and make a taalk in CH.
    braun should step away. he is not welcome so does he not have any pride?

  • 25. Comedy Central Skit wrote:

    Coming Soon:

    Fourth Bais Din Rules You Don’t Need to Listen tp Third Bais Din Which Ruled You Don’t Need To Listen to Second Beis Din Which Ruled You Don’t Need to Listen To Rosenberg

  • 26. This is how Community $$$ is squandered wrote:

    Guess who paid for this “psak”? WE DID!!! Out community money is being squandered on Tamir running around trying to get a psak – he is blowing OUR $$$$$$$

  • 27. yossi wrote:

    zakis adviser Shaul Shimon Deutsch did you know maybe channina went with him to ask the adviser

  • 28. wiliamsburg???? wrote:

    To all of you who are ‘troubled’ by the fact that Zaki turned to a Beis Din out of Crown Heights and Chabad,

    Did you have the same problem when the few disgruntled people who refuse to accept the Zablo’s Psak Din went to Kraus’s beis din. Is he Lubavitch? Additionally, in the past, he went to war against Rabbi Marlow z”k and yblch”t Rabbo Osdobo Shlito.

  • 29. Rosenberg wrote:

    I wrote to Tamir in the name of the Zabla, that he should pay attention to the Kraus Din Torah.
    Now he runs to Williamsburgh, tells Gruber half the story, and has a psak saying only I (we, the zabla) can change things? We have already given the Kraus beis din our approval to investigate the new items and questions that have come up.

    As an experienced Dayan I can see that Rabbi YY Gruber acted very wisely. He listened; took the money (probably made sure it was cash or similar); then wrote a psak with all the information, mis-information, and without the missing information. All he now has to do, is to say (if and when asked):
    “ Oh. Rabbi Rosnberg gave an OK to Rabbi Kraus? Oh. Then my whole psak is botul? Oh. The Netzigim did not sign the zabla? Oh. Then my whole psak is botul umevutal. Oh, Kraus is looking into issues that were raised after Rosenberg’s psak (or just before and not included)? Oh, then there is nothing in what I wrote to say is botul umevutal. It was a different case I must have been asked about.”

  • 30. Din Torah? wrote:

    By the way: what is to goal with ANY Din Torah? To “resolve” a dispute! Once a Din Torah was already held, and the Psak was issued, if a “new” Din Torah would begin in front of a different Beis Din – the “only” result would be the exact opposite! It would perpetuate machlokes!

    Do you think that just because you don’t like the results of a Din Torah – you can suddenly jump ship and to a different Beis Din for a 2nd chance???

    (or if you signed in advance that under no circumstance will you go to another Beis Din – can you send your friend to re-start the “exact same” din torah in “another” beis din??? This logic is utterly absurd! This I believe is Rabbi Gruber’s point).

  • 31. Let us be crystal clear: wrote:

    Harav Gruber states clearly, that once all the relevant parties committed and agreed to a Zabl”o Beis Din, and the Din Torah was already held where they heard and deliberated about all the Taanos – at this point, you do not need to accept and listened to ANY other Beis Din for a REAPEAT Din Torah.

    The Din Torah was ALREADY held! ALL of these arguments brout to Kraus was ALREADY dealt with by the Zabl”o Beis Din!

    Harav Gruber is simply saying that in this type of situation, should there arize any new arguments etc, the only valid place to present these arguments is to the SAME beis din (zabl”o).

    I believe that before Rabbi Gruber wrote his Psak, he read the Piskey Dinim and correspondences es from the Zablo Beis Din, and also spoke with Rabbi’s Kraus and Rosenberg.

  • 32. mendel wrote:

    since when are you allowed to go to a 2. beis din after the 1. one already paskend?in my opinion anyone involved in this business is making a big chilul h'(and then you’ll ask why in CH called the town of clowns)

  • 33. a gruber ferd wrote:

    So this shows Zaki is a Gruber ferd! Send him off to the Lasagna shtibl and be done with the meguluch already. He is an embarrassment and a joke.

  • 34. Chad Gadya wrote:

    To comedy central skit,#27
    you don’t understand!If the fourth Bei din says you don’t have to listen to the third Beis din then ther’e establishing the second Beisdin who says that you don’t have to listen to the first Beisdin. Now! when the fifth Beisdin comes along and says that you don’t have to listen to the fourth whosays you don’t have to listen to the third who says you don’t hve to listen to the second who sys you don’t have to listen to the first. Then the fifth Beisdin have established the authority of the third and the first. But then of course there is always the possibility of the sixth Beis din who might nullify the fifth. You figure out the rest.

  • 36. Old Williamsburgh wrote:

    Gentlemen!
    So much for thinking that if you elect a “Liar/Lawyer with a small trimmed beard he will act like a ”Mentch”.

    Obviously you were mistaken, its just a comedy show that Zaki stuck his LONG NOSE into Williamsburgh where he doesnt belong (on other issues) and he cant let go, so he runs to this Gruber guy.

    SHAME ON YOU ZAKI! SHAME ON LUBAVICH! SHAME ON CROWN HEIGHTS!

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