Op-Ed: Degeneration of Society Due to Lack of Tznius
I was watching online the dedication of the new Chabad center in Kiryat Arbah named for the daughter of the shluchim there, Chaya Mushka Attiah, a”h. Besides shedding quite a few tears as I watched Chaya Mushka’s father dance with the sefer Torah and as I heard his voice break as he spoke a few words, suddenly a thought came to my mind: If a little girl could give up her life for the inyan of tznius, how much more so must we all make a huge effort to increase in tznius within ourselves, our children, our communities.
And suddenly I realized how everyone in the world is making a huge commotion about child abuse and other problems in the world……and rightfully so, of course. We have to fight against impurity and kelipa and unholiness. May Hashem heal every Jew and heal the generation collectively.
But let’s think for a moment: look how the society has degenerated and how the generation has fallen….and most of it is connected to a decline in tznius, in proper observance of taharas hamishpocha, and in general in the manner of dress, behavior etc. Let’s reclaim the innocence and purity of the world! And it starts with the inyan that little Chaya Mushka understood: the inyan of tznius! True tznius to the point of mesiras nefesh! (Chaya Mushka’s mesiras nefesh was full and complete, but mesiras nefesh can also be giving up the way you like to dress, or the movies you like to watch….this is also an aspect of mesiras nefesh and will surely bring nachas to Hashem).
Let’s reclaim our tznius. Let’s all make a hachlata to improve in tznius in thought, speech and deed. Let’s all make a decision not to watch untznius movies, or read untznius books, or listen to goyish music sung by impure singers….let’s not dress in fashions created by goyim who have no idea of tznius….let’s not walk around the streets of any community not dressed properly (meaning, hair should be covered fully, clothing should not be tight or revealing, length of skirt should be proper, length of sleeves should be proper etc. etc.). Let’s not look up to people who are not following a path of kedusha or tznius (let’s not idolize stars or others who are on a wrong path in life). And of course tznius is not only an outward inyan, but inside we have to think modestly, and we have to speak modestly. Let’s all unite on a campaign of tznius.
After all it says the yidden will be redeemed from galus bzechus nashim tzidkanius. So ladies and girls, let’s get moving! It is in our hands. We must each make the effort to increase and improve in tznius, to improve in our observance of taharas hamishpocha and to make sure our children go in the right path in life. We must work to affect an improvement in our communities and be an example to others, a light to the nations. I truly believe if we do this we will also see a sudden improvement in all aspects of society and a decrease in all the illnesses and problems plaguing society in general. Hashem will remove the diseases He put upon the Egyptians and heal each and every Jew… all of Klal YIsrael will merit light in our dwelling places. We can certainly each make an effort. We have nothing to lose an everything to gain!
May we merit mamash the geulah shleima with Moshiach tzidkenu and may we merit to go out of galus proudly, as tznius eidel yidden, who follow in the ways of our Rebbe and our Rebbetzin .
Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka was an example of total tznius and bitul to the Rebbe. Why was she specifically the Rebbetzin of our generation? Because that is the example our generation needs. This is the problem affecting our generation and it has become so widespread that it seems almost impossible to reverse, chasve shalom. We can see by the yetzer hara of the generation what it is that is most important for that generation to rectify. And it is never too late to change.
And it is certainly hashgocha protis that little Chaya Mushka Attiah a”h shared the same name as our Rebbetzin…..
Why does it say eyshis chayil miyimtza? Because to find a true tznius proper eyshis chayil is not easy. But every Jewish girl has the potential to be that eyshis chayil and I am sure a change in attitude and behavior in all communities would bring huge blessings, including easier shidduchim, better marriages, less divorces, purer children, and many, many other brachos. Just as Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai promises in his holy Zohar that by covering one’s hair properly a woman brings to her family the blessings of health, wealth, nachas from children and from grandchildren, so too by increasing in tznius and taharas hamishpocha, we will merit so many blessings from Above and below. If we all make this effort, surely Hashem will listen to our prayers and send us Moshiach tzidkenu bkarov mamash!
CH Resident
I gave a shudder when I saw the picture above. That’s how Chabad women should look! My wife is not as tznius as those women and honestly I appreciate that she’s not. But it’s not that I appreciate it because we are not satmar. Chabad demands FULL adherence to shulchan aruch and even the hiddurim. The reason why I appreciate it, is because I have a yetzer hara. Period. Not for righteous or half righteous reasons. It’s pure yetzer hara of mine that appreciates the provocative look.
I appeal to ALL non tznius woman and girls, as well as all husbands that tolerate/promote their wives dressing in a untznius manner, to admit that it’s the yetzer hara causing the untzniusness. I’m sure Boro Park, Williamsburg, Flatbush etc. can relate to the fact that we have a yetzer hara and be compassionate to our shortcoming in the tznius respect, BUT WHEN WE DENY that the CH tznius situation is a shortcoming of ours, THAT is what really makes the greatest chillul Lubavitch in the world.
I can’t think of a worse thing to say then, “the Rebbe didn’t want us to be satmar”, thus implying that the Rebbe wanted our girls and woman to dress prost. That is the greatest insult to the Rebbe, and anyone who implies that should go to the Ohel and ask mechila of the Rebbe for bringing shame upon his righteous name.
By all means if you have the fortitude to be 100% tznius, go for it and I’m sure the aibishter will reward you for your piety. If you don’t, at the very least, do not denigrate the inyan of tznius! It’s like being obese and instead of admitting that you have a difficulty in food consumption discipline, you go on to glorify the virtues of obesity.
Ich darf a Shluff
I just yawned after reading the title
MUSSAR or (TOUGH) LOVE
Those who feel that promoting Tsnius is not of significant public concern to saving lives & preventing tragedies, think again!!
a cursory look at the Rebbe’s own words & numerous sources in Chazal… quickly reveals some astonishing warnings to individuals & a community!!
the Rebbe typically refrained from Mussar, with ONLY TWO NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS!! (due to the pikuach nefesh nature of these situations)
1) SECURITY OF ISRAEL
2) TSNIUS
since the Rebbe wanted us to know the direct coloration between these & preventing REAL LIFE TRAGEDY in our midst!!
lets stop judging those who are not yet tsnius nor those who panic by its tragic affects on a community’s protection against harm!
we must share the Rebbe’s dyer warnings & positive blessings associated with “Vehayu Machanecha Kadosh” ….
Enough already
Please stop. Take your diatribes and crawl back to the century you came from.
same old, different author
I’m the first person to say the level of tznius in Crown Heights is (pun intended) below the belt. My daughter who is overseas on Shlichus said she’s so glad she isn’t living here because she doesn’t know how she’d explain what we see on our streets to her daughters.
But that’s not the point. The author is wasting his or her time. IT DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. The people who are careful will continue to be so & those who aren’t will continue to look like korvas (with their husbands’ approval & encouragement.)
CrownHeights.info, why bother publishing this? To get many posters saying what they’ve said before? So we can all ooh & aah at the viciousness or justifications or “this is why I left Chabad, you judgmental hypocrites” etc?
It’s tiresome. I cluck with disapproval too, but I can’t change anyone else. Reading this, even though I agree, isn’t going to change anyone. The reasons are simple:
“You’re not talking to ME. You’re talking to YENEM. And it’s none of your bleep-bleep business what I do anyway, you old witch. You’re stuck in the shtetl. It’s 2012, live with the times….(didn’t the Rebbe say that? So I AM listening. See????)”
I don’t have a solution to the problem. I can think of a few possibilities but I’m not even going to bother writing them. I have better things to do with my time today and I don’t need the abuse. I applaud your sentiments but I’ve been living here a long time. It’s going downhill and getting worse every season. Good luck.
Andrea Schonberger
The tznius problem might be solved by ladies wearing burkas. Would that make the anonymous writer satisfied? Or better yet, ladies should remain indoors at all times and let their menfolk do all the outside chores like sheparding the kids around for various appointments/events, strolling the baby for a daily airing, food shopping, going to the laundromat,…etc.–then the tznius problem would be solved. I would have no arguement with that!
anonymous
Beautiful, true & moving, but in what way was this little girl moser nefesh for tznius? Please excuse my ignorance of the story.
michal
B”H
Thank you so much for this. What a kiddush Lubavitch, mamash!
tznius vs abuse
at least tznius does not harm anyone
children and women are being abused every day in CH and nobody is doing anything about it!
Its time the community come together to stop abuse from the thousands of kids (1 in 2 ) that is taking place on a daily basis
Chona Nosson Gewirtz
This op-ed is indicative of the problem, not the solution, because it is posted anonymously. Why is the writer, who writes well about a girl who gave up her life for the inyan of tznius, then afraid to also stand up publicly for tznius? The shuchan aruch tells us to be bold when it comes to serving Hashem.
David Hompes
So explain to me; why does your op-ed illustrate this article with the “backs” of four ladies?
from 770
agree we need tsinius in our streets
The real source of the lack in tznius
Unfortunately, I think that the problem goes way deeper than a lack of tznius.
I feel that the younger generation has missed out on creating a kesher to the Aibishter or even understanding why they do mitzvohs. As we say in the business — they need to “own” their Yiddishkeit/ their connection to Hashem
We have inadvertently recreated the shtetl in Europe, where many Yidden did mitzvos primarily because of social and family pressure. When people came to America and found that they weren’t struck by lightening when they ate non-Kosher food,they proceeded to leave everything else behind.
We need to rekindle the connection to Torah, Mitzvos, Hashem and the Rebbe; not criticize the young people on Kingston Avenue who are suffering more from apathy (mixed in with an unhealthy dose of the affect of the media) than rebellion.
more blah blah
good points perhaps, please reword it to inspire, not turn others away.
what i mean is that you, the author, have an interesting opinion and trying to shove it onto others. this usually has a very low effective rate.
Why always the women??!!
Why is it always the womens fault? Im still waiting to see an article that rebukes men not to be so grob and control their yetzer hara.
Wolfson
Dated this past 10 Elul, the Crown Heights Beis Din issued a public letter, in which they wrote:
“…we call upon all to lend financial support to all activities that are being undertaken to promote tznius in the community. Maaser money may, and should, be used to support these activities. We are of the opinion that currently one should give preference to this cause.. assisting in the publication of sefer Kevuda Bas Melech on the laws of tznius which has been out of print for many years. The Rebbe has written to the author, Rabbi Moshe Wiener, ”It is a pity [chaval] every day that the reading and study of this sefer is delayed .”
To facilitate the publication, the opportunity to print “dedications” (“hakdashos”) in the new sefer are now available.
To purchase a dedication, go to: http://kevudabasmelech.info.
uh oh
those who knew the rebbetzin, or saw the video of her, might argue with you as to her tznius. might be better to take out that paragraph so as not to get too much anti feedback
MIchali
Yasher Koach to whomever wrote this beautiful and very timely article. Tznius is a big problem in most Jewish communities, and it needs to be addressed. I also must add that Jewish sites must be viligent in avoiding posting pixs of women who are not properly dressed.
What does it mean to be Tzniut?
I agree with all that you say, but can’t help and feel that there is no support in this matter. WHY Tzniut? What are the Halachas? Is nail polish allowed? Open toe shoe allowed? There are no clear cut guide lines. Its not enough for a person to do what they think is OK. There are Halachic rulings. Yet looking in the street it would seem they are not mandatory. Neck lines are low, skirts are high up and with slits. Where are the Rabbais, the influencers, the encouragers. Women today need to know what they get out of it. Why should they sacrifice their personal style and comfort. Of course I believe that Halacha should be observed. But in this generation, we need to know the deeper reason and inspiration for being “Tsniut”.
Shmerel m-flatbush
B”mechilah, the author of this article… Hahckt in kup.
Start looking at the good.
You (the writer) sounds like a male. You have NO business noticing anything related to tznius anyways. So plz stop it. You and all the complainers who always find bad in every good thing.
Crown heights and Lubavitch deal with the same issues every other community deals with.
When our rabbis stop bickering and fighting between themselves… Only then will our community members start paying attention to, and respecting what is really important.
So stop it. Focus on “where our problem s really are”
An don’t look at other women. You shouldn’t even be noticing this.
R’shmerel.
Time for your anti-psychotic drugs
I’m hoping that this article was written sarcastically to highlight the growing cult-like tendencies in segments of chabad. If the author is serious then I have no words…
Realist Jew
Is the outside world really that scary to you, or would you rather we stay in our own little bubble? Paragraph 4 is full of self-righteous boasting. Seriously some of you people just love to weigh others down with your “frumkeit”.
:)
nice article, truly from the heart.
we r all good people and mean well. everyone is on thier own level in yiddishkiet, frumkiet, chassidishkiet, mekiusherwise…while for one person not going out in a tichel anymore is a big step for another making sure the tichel is actally covering most of their hair…any step in the right direction big or small in man’s eyes is huge in front of Hashem!
let’s not judge anyone , just bless people and smile when u see them
no name
In our communities, it begins with the Rebbetzins. You need to get them to dress tzniusly and the rest of us will follow. But when a Rebbetzin comes to shul and has to put a shmatta over her lap because her skirt is too short, there is something wrong. We need guidance, we need the women we look up to to do the right thing. It doesn’t matter how much weight you lost, or how now you wear a smaller size than your daughter. That’s not humility, that’s a “hey, look at me” mentality, exactly opposite what the Rebbe wanted.
If you want us to take tznius seriously, then it needs to start at the top….
DeClasse- Intellectual
Just remember that often this decline in moral degeneration of society starts with the leadership at top. Was it not Obama who endorsed and protected gay marrage which the TORAH rejects; was it not the Democratic leadership in the state of New York that passed the pro gay marrage bill; while some states have a religious exception, in Democratic Massachusetts, the Democratic leadership refused to allow a religious exception and can jail a religious leader for refusing to perform gay marriage; When the founder of the chicken resturant chain stated he was a religious man who believed in the bible and did not accept the concept of gay marraige, was it not two Democratic mayors of major cities (Menino of Boston and Emmanual[a Jew] of Chicago) who threatened major illegal action in retaliation against Chick Filet because the owner of the chain stated he believed that marrage was between a man and a women. And, let us not forget the the attack the current admininstration has iniitiated against religious instuitutions over the birth control and abortion issues in the Obama health care act
And, when the top leadership practice hypocracy and lies, the effects trickle downs upon whole society.
It is the whole framework that makes tznis possible or impossible, and when we are dealing with a strong attack against morality and ethnics of which the issue of Tznis is only part, The question is and becomes–what good is tznis, if you behave like some of of our co-reliigionists in Israel or in the United States?
P.S. for your research, the issue of the Meheitzah came about in the Bais Hamedosh because they did not trust the men–they trusted the women. Do your research.
Rethink strategy.
We have been so intent on lecturing about Tznius, we forgot to instill the meaning behind it. Our voices about Tznius are so loud they drown out the underlying issues of True belief in Hashem and belief in his laws as well as an integral Ahavas Yisrael. In fact those that look down apon a person for not wearing stockings is actually hindered by superficial understanding of the person. If one is more excepting rather than condescending, suddenly the Tznius issue will improve.
moti
this article has a fundamental problem – it does not explain the story of Chaya Mushka Attias. If I understand correctly her dress caught fire and she wouldn’t take it off as it was not tzniusdik. The problem is whilst this is a great tragedy it is not a lechatchila and the article somehow implies we learn from her mesirus nefesh for tznius – but this is a case where you would be permitted to violate tznius laws to save a life so it makes no sense to preach. A very strange aricle IMHO.
There is no moral degeneration!!
I do not think there is a morality decline. I think morality has increased. Children do not work long hours in terrible conditions. They sit in school an learn Torah. Poor are taken care of – now more than ever. There are more organizations than ever before helping people. There are vibrant shluchim who are building bigger chabad houses. There is no moral degeneration, just because some people choose to wear shorter skirts. Please get your values straight and learn what true Ahavas Yisrael and humanity means.
Check it out
Tznius was a Bakasha Nafshis of the Rebbe ZY”A. Enough said!
Get it straight
I have a question and I would really like it addressed and answered. Everyone is on the Tznius bandwagon . That all our sorrows and ills and tzoros is because of lack of tznius . So i have to say that I fully agree the tznius has degenerated in the past 10 years. BUT it is a result of a different problem And the REAL problem is,,,, and the real reason we are still in golus is not because of tznius . It is the prevalent sinaas chinum and lack of ahavas yisroel. Our bais hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinnas chinum and we are back to that again. Dear reader, just take a minute to count how many people do you know where siblings do not speak to each other.? How were you treated by the administration of the yeshiva when you went to register your child? etc. etc. It goes on and on. Our children look around and they see the hypocricy of people who are held up as choshhive (important) people, michanchim, relatives fighting and then these same people preach to them about tznius? My dear readers …. the last sichas that we heard from our Rebbe was mostly stressing 2 points 1. ahavas yisroel and 2. moshiach…… The Rebbe did not want for us to stay in this golus one more minute and he gave us the instruction…ahavas yisroel and long and ask and live with Moshiach/ Instead everyone is fighting and trying to dress like Boro Park and Satmar. We must uphold our tznius …no question about it… but once you realize that it is a result of another problem….. Ahavas Yisroel…. Call up that person you dont talk to and make peace. You see a family fighting ,.. Get involved and make peace.And may we merit Kabolas Pnei Moshiach meetoch simcha v’tuv laivov. b’korov mamesh NOW…..PS… Why is the tznius bandwagon always against the women. I have yet to see article after article addressing shaved beards. Anyone?
puzzled and disappointed
The picture is definitely a picture of women from Williamsburg/ Boro Park, When did they become our “look up to and follow” people? It reminds me of a letter to editor that someone wrote in the Nshei Journal a while back where she writes that in Crown Heights there is no store where she can purchase stockings approriate for a Chabad woman and she has to go to Boro Park or Willliamsburg to buy stockings…. Well then take your husband to buy himself a shtreimel and knickers when you go. What has gotten into you people? No wonder many went the other way. no surprise
Herlot heights
I think most of these problems addressed in various op-ed are problems in a crown heights rather then the general Lubavitch community
ATT:to all those trying to knock tsnius!
To attack those who promote tsnius (& call attention to the problem to be publicly discussed)
1) Understand that the message is true & valid! even if it hurts!
2) Dont rush to judge all tsnius promoters as mean spirited or looking down at you!
3) Simply attacking the messenger does not refute the valid message!
4) Tsnius in our community has serious consequences on the “protection” & well being of the entire community! ChaZ“L teach!
5) I do not judge those who have this YH, its important to never judge the person! yet be able to still (clearly) know whats right & wrong Halachacaly!
6) We must teach those who are not yet sensitive to this… that indeed their personal attire has serious consequences on bringing Brachos to themselves, their families & neighbors!!
7) for those kind people who dont yet know, we must sensitively share with them the dyer affects R”L of lack of tsnius! (no need to pin point specific tragedies surrounding us on a devastatingly excellerated pattern R”L!! all around us! – some not as well publicized as others ……
8) Dont find clever excuses why you need not follow halacha (bec its the leadership! im off the hook) no no no, lets all work on excepting the burden of improving ourselves one step up at a time! Hashem will surely assist us & make the YH easier & the Brachos plentiful!! Amen! (comment #3 continued)
so sad
what really hurts is that many think that since everyone is doing it then it must be ok.
only recently did it dawn on me that high heels, open toes esp. with nail polish toe nails, or when leggings are noticeably leggings are all very non tsnius. i am so sad that Lubavitch girls/women look so provocative. I feel this is just as bad in our times as it was when we sinned in midyan in those times. the yetzer hora for us now must be just as strong as they had then.
Hashem should have rachmonos and understand that if we don’t see getlichkeit clear enough this is going to happen.
Moshiach NOw!!
blaming the leadership is no excuse!
i am still responsible for my own actions & decisions even if all the Rabbis in the whole world are doing wrong!
……
we all (myself included) must grasp the Rebbe’s urgent plea (re tsnius) as in OUR-OWN best interest! as it increases Parnasa, Nachas, Health & protects against tragedies in our family & community
the solution
Stores shouls ban untznius women from shopping. this will compell the women to dress better, because they love shoping.
Milhouse
#25, “ in Democratic Massachusetts, the Democratic leadership refused to allow a religious exception and can jail a religious leader for refusing to perform gay marriage; ”
That is a blatant lie.
Milhouse
#28, “There is no moral degeneration, just because some people choose to wear shorter skirts. ” That is a contradiction in terms. You obviously have no idea what morality is.
its LOVING to SAVE someone from HARMSWAY
a real friend will not hesitate to tell you (in a sensitive way of course) if something you are doing is harmful & dangerous!
i for one trust the Rebbe that Tznius has a direct impact on preventing calamaties & tragedies & attracts Nachas, Parnasa & Health!
instead of blaming the handful of (yes noisy) machlokisin, lets pay attention to the %98 of (not so noisy) kind loving people who practice ahavas yisroel & achdus!
as for those who struggle with the YH for the wrong kind of attention…… we shall never judge how difficult this surely is for them to overcome! we each have our YH, some attack a women’s sense of innate value & dignity other YH are more complex & less open for all to see on the street, yet we all need to work on our respective YHs & help & support each-other to overcome each or own YH & thereby bring more & more prosperity & blessings to our-self, family & community!
Husbands have the power!
Dear Men, Fathers & Husbands, do not underestimate the power you have to mitigate untsnius attire by your wife or daughters!
a women or girl who feels truly loved, cherished & respected at home by her close male figures (Father/Husband) will be far less needy & desperate on the inside for seeking attention in a shallow degrading way
a women who is truly happy loved & living life with a sense of deep purpose & satisfaction, a women who views her life as on a mission to help teach inspire & elevate others, will not require superficial or self degrading ploys to feel good about herself!
#35 well said!
thank you
i agree!!
To #1
You stupid monkey – tell your wife to keep the provocative look for the bedroom – unless that is, you don’t mind other men with a yetzer horah ogling her.
You are a 100% idiot.
I Love It
I love how all the CAY-niks come out and all of a sudden become all holy, using their only defence – WHERE IS YOUR AHAVAS YISOREL!??
Clearly you area bunch of idiots. Chassidus teaches we are all one body and if the foot hurts so does the head as a result.
WHERE IS YOUR AHAVAS YISOREL?? You are bringing everyone down with your lack of tznius, I sit and cry for you (and write comments on the internet.)
Mommy
Why do u always put photos of the backs of women. I dont think they would appreciate u taking photos of their tznius behinds. Its very sad that the women dont care about tznius. The men/ bochurim are actually nowdays struggling with even bigger yetzer horahs on the internet – even beis moshiach just published a series of articles on this very widespread phenomina. My six year old daughter doesnt even know yet that those tight skirts her teachers wear (we r out of town) are not tznius she was showing me how she wants her skirt to be tight fitting like theirs and i had to tell her if its tight its not tznius. We need Moshiach
not bad
May be if the editorial of C.H.I. would post a brief and short Halacha daily about this. it probaly would help a lot (Remember the old Tzach list and the always Psak of the Tzemach Tzedek)
no one special
Simplistic view.
Rivkie
I do not see why everyone is attacking the author. The points being made are very relevant to today’s society. Just look around you and you will see. There is nothing wrong with improving the standards of tznius. Those who do not want to admit this is an area in need of improvement obviously have a problem in that area as well. The author never said this is the only problem in society. The point is simply being made that this is something that would help and heal many of society’s ills. Torah says the same! So why so many nasty comments??? Why cant we all just talk nicely to each other? Not only tznius needs improvement…I think speech as well…
To Moti
If a little girl could understand so deeply the importance of tznius and on a spiritual level she sacrificed so much not to violate that at her young age, sure we can learn from that. She is a neshomah, obviously a very high neshomah, and the way things happened was hashgocha protis and very possibly meant from Hashem to get this message across….why is that so strange??? I dont see anything strange about it. I think the author made very valid points.
fed up with the male attitude!
Oh please, gentlemen…….pick on the ladies in the photo all you want. They are in a group with some variance in hem length & leg covering, but no one is so outrageous that I would be uncomfortable walking or talking with them. Perhaps they used to dress in jeans & tees & are trying to become frum. It is a process for the non frum,you know. Or do you?
Perhaps when the pix’s of you “modest” men are posted, especially the bleary eyed ones with the hand on the booze bottle or glass or the ones dancing & apparently so happy to have their pix taken in compromising dance positions revealing more than a hint of certain body parts….we ladies should rise up & chastise you for it? Or do you think we are blind, or that we have no thoughts about male modesty, or lack thereof?
How about a little more modesty from you?
Look in the mirror, better yet at your videos & photos,to see if you, yourself, might not merit some improvement!
shomer ha lashon
Too bad you aren’t as worried or careful about what comes out of you mouths.
the sinas chinum and loshan hara that thrives in our communities is destructive.
I’d be equaly concerned about what you say, who you say it to and how you say things. Destroying reputations, businesses and shidduchim is rampant and unfortunaely accepted as a way of life.
To the author...
If you believe in the cause so much, why would you not attach your name to the article. You must not truly believe that a change must be made.
eidel
There is something wrong in the chinuch (school and homes). For some reason the mechanchim do not connect with the students and they do not explain or even maybe are not a dugmo chayo to the girls (including dressing, talking behaving etc). Its missing some eidelkeit and awareness whay all these issues are so important. Tznius is not only bein odom lamokom like many think “it’s my cheshbon with hashem”. Tzius is part of our bein odom lachaveiroi. Women should think what they are doing to others by dressing untzniusdik or not acting eidel.
Beinani
Lubavitch, and CH in particular have major Tznius issues. And it doesn’t seem to bother lubavitchers that even misnagdim (Lakewood) dress more Tzniusdik then them.
with the old breed
why?
so many of our children are going off and you care more about what you may be called? are you happy with the way things are? do you care? how much more has to happen before everyone says It is time to take a stand?
Yossel
There is no question that Tznius is a problem. It is not an easy problem to solve, but barking and yelling at people to be more tznius will NOT solve it.
We learn in Torah that our leaders influence the general level of observance in the community. Many young people gave up respecting both the secular (e.g. vaad hakohol) and Torah leadership (e.g. the Rabbonim) with all the fights about MONEY POWER and MORE MONEY. So that’s why I think it boils down to. When you don’t respect your leadership, whom do you look up to? Hashem took the Rebbe away, so what does He want from us? I really can’t blame people for getting disenchanted, it is a story that repeats itself over and over and over throughout 4,000 years of Jewish history…
How many single people give up Yiddishkeit and Tznius because they can’t find a Shidduch?
Our priorities need to be straightened out. We need sincere unbiased leadership and gentle loving guidance back toward Yiddishkeit. That is sorely missing in Crown Heights. How many of us can find a Mashpia or a Rov that will give us the time and guidance?? How many of us are willing to invest the time and effort to be Mashpia on others??
We also need dedicated Shadchanim who are competent and willing to put the effort into getting our young people connected with their basherte.
Someone who has brains
Beautiful article! For all those talking about the picture on the article that clearly is something crownheights.info put up NOT the author! Wow some people are just so ignorant!
Now when it comes to tznius yes we have a problem and sometimes reading articles such as these can wake people up an put things in perspective.
I believe people in crown heights alot are living on a very materialistic level where they are so involved with such nonsense on a daily basis it’s very sad….
May all those that are ‘sleeping’ wake up and live the way the Rebbe would like his children to live!
Rebecca Cohen
To #3 please write sources. Where and what did the Rebbe say that tznius affects the safety of Israel and where did he speak sharply about tznius and its related issues?
Can i make a suggestion?
Hi, I’m a young woman in my 20s who is a health professional. I was religious (modern orthodox) when i moved to crown heights however a few years ago due in part to personal reasons as well as feeling way too much pressure to keep the laws in crown heights i became not religious. To all those who are Lubavitcher that’s great. Continue to be and love every second. However, it is not good to push the laws on others when they are not comfortable following them. Give them space and instead show them the beauty of Judaism. Instead of ostracizing them for the things they don’t follow
RE:#3 URGENT! URGENT! STOP THE TRAGEDIES
YOU WROTE:
MUSSAR or (TOUGH) LOVE wrote:
Those who feel that promoting Tsnius is not of significant public concern to saving lives & preventing tragedies, think again!!
a cursory look at the Rebbe’s own words & numerous sources in Chazal… quickly reveals some astonishing warnings to individuals & a community!!
the Rebbe typically refrained from Mussar, with ONLY TWO NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS!! (due to the pikuach nefesh nature of these situations)
1) SECURITY OF ISRAEL
2) TSNIUS
since the Rebbe wanted us to know the direct correlation between these & preventing REAL LIFE TRAGEDY in our midst!!
lets stop judging those who are not yet tsnius nor those who panic by its tragic affects on a community’s protection against harm!
we must share the Rebbe’s dyer warnings & positive blessings associated with “Vehayu Machanecha Kadosh” ….
TRUE, PLEASE WRITE AN OP-ED with footnotes sources in chazal & sichos so that the public can see the “Correlation” between “Mageifos” Calamities & Modesty!
i know many friends who would never harm others if only they knew chazal’s warnings of harm to one’s self, family & community
how many tragedies could have been avoided???
please promote thisinfoat once!!
#39 & #40 is the same auther
i appreciate your point of view ty!
Read well
I see so many nasty comments here…I dont understand why. What does the author’s name have to do with the validity of points raised? and why do people think that one should not speak about the tznius issue…nobody is barking at anyone. the author wrote respectfully and is simply suggesting we ALL work on improving tznius…why do people get so threatened by that idea??? Yes, galus is hard. Yes, kids get disenchanted…but when it comes down to the bottom line, we still need to keep Torah and mitzvahs. Tznius is just as much a part of Torah as keeping kosher, Shabbos etc. People write so many articles about abuse and many problems. in the communities…maybe it is time to look at possible spiritual reasons that could positively improve things…why is that so hard for people to accept?? I think the author wrote very well and the article makes sense.
if ppl knew this.....
if untznius ppl knew how cruel their YH really is, if they knew how much preventable tragedy this YH brings to our community, they would be ashamed to publicly be seen on the street as willing to hurt others for the sake of personal perverse satisfaction
yes the YH is using “untznius” women as a powerful tool in his arsenal to rid our community of Hashem’s protection & bring Tragedies upon our loved ones Ch“V
extreme sounding indeed!! yes but this is never the less the TRUTH!
since meforshei hatorah explain the verse ”Vehoyu Machanech Kadosh“ & many Tzadikim besides our Rebbeh have warned of the painful curses that shower down on a family & community that modesty is lost
if what they are teaching us is TRUTH & FACT then even if you have this YH please resist your temptation for the sake of all the people around you who you impose on Ch”V bad fortune R”L
its the hight of selfishness to ignor the negative impact untznius has on others for selfish issues
i know first hand of many tragic disasters on the rise over the last 10 years ever since the decline in tznius manifested by more week women who fell into this downward unhealthy addiction to cheap street attention
lets not judge anyone, but realize that if judaism is true, than we must improve our collective tznius to stop the flow of tragedies bombarding us more than ever before
Who r we
I live in C.H. For 43 years now. When our family moved here the world seemed like nothing it is today. From the way people dress, talk and behave it is almost like seeing a different species of people.
The last 40 years or so I never would have dreamt to do the things I do today. I dress differently talk differently and my thoughts are totally not the same thoughts of the innocent 13 year old that moved here from Hicksville U.S.
The reason u may ask is watching the deterioration of people. There is no respect nor boundaries , everyone feels they can express themselves in anyway they feel. Today it’s all about what makes THEM feel GOOD and who cares about anything else or anyone else’s feelings who they will hurt or who they are disrespecting.
Nobody feels anymore nobody cares anymore it’s just about “how will I look and how will it make me feel”
I look at myself sometimes and wonder who am I why don’t I care anymore? And the answer is because nobody cares anymore. It’s very sad but I think things will get much worse . The husbands want their wives to look a certain way and the woman comply because they r afraid what will and can happen if they don’t.
It is a very sad and disturbing situation with really no resolution at all.
Milhouse
#49, what are you talking about? The women in the picture are dressed with perfect tznius; they’re being held up as examples.
Milhouse
#58, they are *laws*, not suggestions. Do you feel pressured to keep traffic laws? Are you OK with that pressure?
to #57 Rebecca Cohen
pls read #3 carefully again!
“a cursory look at the Rebbe’s own words as well as numerous sources in Chazal… quickly reveals some astonishing warnings to untznius individuals & a communities!!”
that is to say, the protection of Hashem is g“f removed leaving the people in harmsway vulnerable to all types of Tragedy 7 Calamity g”f!!
i’m not accusing untznius ppl of knowingly causing harm to their own family & community, rather that many women need to be taught this info! as they may have not studied in a proper jewish school when they were younger & simply dont know the dangers etc
as for those untznius women who do know the affect their behavior imposes on their fellow neighbors, we need to help them feel better about themselves so that they are less needy emotionally for the wrong type of self esteem! yes loving someone will go a long way to building up their self esteem & remedying their sense of worthlessness on the inside!
aretz yisrael yid
our girls in chsbad school were told this story.i was very upset that the teachers praised her act of giving up her life in order to stay modest.i thought pikuach nefesh in this situation pushes away the mitzvah of modesty.it reminds me of the story of the chassid who sees a drowning woman and decides not to save her because of modesty.let us not give our daughters ideas and stories that might confuse them and put themselves in dangerous situations
to 67
The idea given over to girls in school is not to put oneself in a dangerous position for tznius…but the fact that a little girl felt so strongly about tznius that she was UNABLE to do differently, is an example worthy of mentioning! And probably on a subconcious level, her neshomah came to the world for this purpose. That is why the author is saying that we must change our collective conscoiusness to all improve in tznius and rectiy this portion of the world so such sacrifices are not necessary, Hashem yirachem.
Esther
If the sequence of events suggested by commenter #27 is correct, a little girl’s tznius clothing was ON FIRE and she, with a child’s understanding and desire to be good, burned to death rather than remove burning clothing. Why are we celebrating this? And why are we interpreting this as a call to admonish women whose skirts are a little too tight? There are two issues here. There is a very valid point to be made about respecting oneself, community values, and halacha by not seeking negative or superficial attention. (A point that holds true for both men and women…) But to misread a truly horrific tragedy and decide that pikuach nefesh should no longer come first is misguided and arrogant. If anything, should we not take this opportunity to discuss fire safety with our children?
(Ironically, the most trusted approach to this scenario is to stop, drop, and roll, which doesn’t involve undressing. The victim should stay as still as possible so as not to fan the flames, drop to the ground, cover their face, and roll on the ground so that the fire will be deprived of oxygen.)
It is very natural and very human to try to create a sense of order and assign meaning to events that would otherwise seem senseless and cruel. Naturally no one wants this to happen to another child. But there is more to preventing another tragedy than declaring exposed knees to be a curse upon us all. Jewish wisdom is often incredibly and beautifully pragmatic. And it is rooted in an understanding that human life is sacred above all else.
Milhouse
#67, the difference is that you have no right to be moser someone else’s life, but you do have the right to be moser your own life. Rabbi Akiva risked his life for netilas yodayim; the Frierdiker Rebbe risked his life for tefillin, and the Rebbe risked his life just for the name “Jew”. Mesirus nefesh for a mitzvah is admirable and should be praised; not that everyone is expected to have the same level of mesirus nefesh themselves, but that they should take at least a little of that in their daily lives, when the danger is not that big and the consequences not that dire.
DONT ATTACK THE MESSENGER
if u r from those who r afflicted with this urge to seek self esteem from showing the world ur lack of self respect on the street,
then admit it!
instead of getting all defensive & trying to vilify the “messenger” or blame others for ur poor choices of how u choose to dress in public,
…..
remember this, dressing in the street in a undignified manner without standards nor inner dignity, simply advertises to the world how lacking u feel about ur self on the inside,
dressing this way u will not help your self esteem at all, on the contrary this will further cheapen u in the eyes of others & ur own self as well!
Rachel
I was deeply haunted by this story, so deeply haunted that I researched it further. Chaya Mushka (OBM) was seven years old at the time of her death. She was playing with matches near a sukkah in her back yard. When her dress caught on fire, her younger brother cried for her to take it off, and Mushka responded by saying something along the lines of “I’ll not be immodest.” I agree wholeheartedly with the commenters here who argue that this narrative is deeply problematic. Children should absolutely be taught about fire safety, and surely we’ve gone off the deep end when we ignore pikuach nefesh. Online, I found harsh indictments of religious fundamentalism based on the above story. Other writers thought that surely the quote about modestly was made up after the fact to paint Orthodox Jews as extremists who couldn’t see the forest for the trees.
And then I found an interview with Chaya Mushka’s father. He is a deeply religious man who has faced a deep and unfathomable sort of pain that most of us will, G-d willing, never be able to imagine. He struggled to make sense of the loss of his precocious and sensitive little daughter. I never got the impression that Chaya Mushka made the conscious decision to die in the name of modesty or that her parents wanted to turn her story into a fable for schoolchildren about tznius clothing. The story Victor Attiah told is deeply inspiring, but in a wholly different way. The night before her death, Mushka cleaned the first floor of her family’s home all by herself because she knew something her mother didn’t- many visitors would come the next day, and Mushka wanted to make this easier for her mother. Mushka was adamant that her parents not put covers on her schoolbooks because she believed they would belong to someone else. Her parents did end up giving them to another student. As her family grieved and struggled to heal, Chaya Mushka’s aunt dreamed that she was fighting to take the girl from the arms of her late grandmother, who said, “No, she is ours.” In other words, Chaya Mushka knew and accepted that her time had come when she refused to take off her dress. She understood that there is a greater plan for all of us.
Was Chaya Mushka Attiah a wise and beautiful little girl, a special neshama? Absolutely. Far more special than this article lets us know. Let’s not reduce her legacy to squabbles over hemlines.
Untznius brings tragedies r l
people are simply reckless!!
lets elevate this discussion
the proper way to frame this discussion is to educate the public with Torah sources
Milhouse
#69, Human life is NOT sacred above all else. There are things for which one must give up ones life. Avoda zara is one. Giluy arayos (of which tznius is a part) is another. The gemara records a case in which a man was so infatuated with a woman that the doctors said that if he was not allowed to at least talk to her from behind a fence he would die, and the psak was that he should be allowed to die rather than breach her tznius. That doesn’t mean every case is like that, but it shows that there are things more important than human life.
shocked by comments
I dont understand what is everyone’s problem!! The author made a simple statement that a little girl was an example of someone with such deep felt feelings for tznius…there is no need to argue if that was right or wrong! Nor did the author say the child consciously was moser nefesh for tznius…you all seem to have difficulty understanding the article. Teh point it that we can learn something positive from the little girl’s feeling for tznius. And we can take that as an example to improve in our own tznius. The Rebbe often connected lo lanu tragedies with lack of tznius…why do people feel so threatened by that??? Look inward and everyone work to improve themselves. I think that would be the proper response rather than all these comments that bring out nothing positive….
#75
Millhouse, I copy-pasted this from Chabad.org,
“With regards to the three cardinal sins—idolatry, murder, and sexual sins (such as adultery, incest and homosexuality) —we are obligated to allow our lives to be sacrificed rather than transgress them. Regarding these sins, it makes no difference who is the one (or ones) compelling the Jew to transgress, or in the presence of how many people it is done…. With regards to all other commandments, we are required to transgress rather than die.”
Remember this was a seven year old in the backyard with her even younger brother, who could have covered his eyes. If you honestly think that this is sexual impropriety, or a slippery slope into sexual impropriety, I will pray for you.
Wondering
Would this be considered suicide?
Sad
How backwards and sickening it is to attach sexuality via modesty to a 7 year old girl to influence women.
Hemlines bring calamity?
A lack of love and respect toward other humans does.
The usually Rebbeh Refrained from Mussar
bec the physical harm to ppl is soo great! The Rebbe often connected lo lanu tragedies with lack of tznius…why do people feel so threatened by that???
……
dont be selfish, before you dress untznius consider the good & safety of ur fellow neighbors u endanger!
Milhouse
“With regards to all other commandments, we are required to transgress rather than die.”
That is absolutely not true. For other commandments, when we are not being compelled to break them *because* they’re commandments, we *may* break them and preserve our lives, or we may choose to give up our lives to keep them. I cite again the examples of Rabbi Akiva, the Frierdiker Rebbe, and the Rebbe.
Milhouse
“ Hemlines bring calamity? ”
Yes, absolutely they do.
Sad
If hemlines were surely the cause of calamity, you would not have such barbaric events happening in the Middle East, little girls getting acid thrown at them, women having their noses sliced off.
Where is the modesty of men when they commit acts of war, rape and pillage? Where is the modesty of men when they cheat on their families? Who runs this world and corrupts it so much?
Women are not the cause of YOUR shortcomings.
Sad
I’m all for modesty but not for blaming women for the obvious lack of responsibility some men take for their actions.
It’s sickening that you keep focusing on the physical aspects of women but what about men’s behavior? Where is the denouncing of adultery or drunkenness and bad habits? You won’t touch that!
Milhouse
#83, so you’re smarter than the Nevi’im who said that lack of tznius *does* cause calamities?
Attacking the bad men... cheap excuse
Attacking the bad apples amongst the men (cheaters, ear cutters in the middle east) does not in any way JUSTIFY untnius or the curses (torah sources & our sages say) it brings to a community!
DONT KNOCK THE REBBEH! (his words)
The Rebbeh attributed unexpected calamities in our midst SPECIFICALLY TO lack of Tsnius!!
yes as uncharacteristic of the Rebbeh to attribute specific causes to Calamity & tragedy, re Tsnius the Rebbeh took no chances & MADE THESE CONNECTIONS VERY VERY CLEAR – in the interest of protecting our community from harmsway!!!
THE REBBE BLAMED TSNIUS!!
dont pull out the Politically correct card & say “Dont blame calamities on women”
the Rebbeh attributed GREAT POWER to women!!
power for good & power for the Opposite R”L!!
The Rebbeh emphasized the disproportionate impact women have on Chinuch, the home environment & Saving lives via Tsnius!!
…… similarly Noshim Tidkoniyos will bring the Geulah!!
Sad
Milhouse, so you think hemlines cause tsunamis and earthquakes?
How convenient to avoid acknowledging the atrocities and behavior of men.
2 separate issues
It seems to me that there are 2 separate issues here-
1. Children’s lack of safety knowledge
2. the general disregard for tznius in most places (I live out of town in a frum community, I can attest that this is NOT just a Lubavitch/ crown heights issue), there is a lack of tznius EVERYWHERE (even the satmar community near me has begun wearing clothes which show a lack tznius).
There is the halachos of tznius (covering elbows, knees, collarbone, etc.) and there is also the spirit of tznius -take for ex: a woman wearing a long, long skirt, long sleeves (in a tight shirt which accentuates all her curves), red, red nail polish and a long sheitel till the middle of her back- while she may be adhering to the HALACHOS of tznius, she is definitely not dressed within the spirit of tznius…
to #89 ur arguing with the Rebbeh!
it was the Rebbeh who linked unexpected tragic events to lack of Tsnius!!
the Rebbeh knows……
TY #88
ur 100% correct! the Rebbeh did empower women & reveal that they do posses disproportionate power (for the good & ch”v the opposite)
we must all appreciate the power we have!
to 90
its quite correct to start referring to the Tsnius issue as a safety concern
……
perhaps this way people with good considerate hearts will dress tsniusly NOT out of concern for Halacha but at least for the safety of those around them & to attract the Brachos the Rebbeh promised will shower down on families who’s members dress Tsnius & Have a Mashpia
out of love, the Rebbeh gave us the the tips to make our lives happier, healthier & more prosperous!
1) Check Tfilin & Meuos Annually
2) tznius
3) Aseh Lecha Rav, (choose a mentor for yourself) to regularly review where your at in life & how to improve, the Rebbeh promised his answer & blessings will come through via Mentor (whhen followed properly as laid out in the sichos of Aseh Lecha Rav)
Let-s Each Do Our Part
Firstly I’d like to commend Crown Heights. Info for posting the op-ed, as I’m impressed that such a website would post it.
Secondly, while yes it’s true that sinas chinom brings catastrophe, I for one am seeing the majority of the nasty comments here being posted by those who disagree with the article, NOT by those supporting it.
Hamaseh Hu Haikar: let’s take action: I think that crownheights.info can do a lot to help improve things. Maybe it would help if crownheights.info wouldn’t post pictures of females at all (like other lubavitch websites). There were some good suggestions made in the comments- maybe crownheights.info can begin posting a daily halacha and inspirational thought on tznius. Maybe even someone like Milhouse can volunteer to write it for them?
Maybe also crownheights.info can help to improve the ahavas yisroel situation and instead of posting every comment made, be a little more careful and only post comments that don’t use name calling, foul language, etc.?
oh pohleeez ! so now im a selfish dob?
first u attack me as dressing lite bec im needing other mens attention that ive got self esteem issues & no romance at home
now u say im hurting mii neighbors causing wows of the world bec my private biz how i choose to dress????
thats the whole problem with blindly believing everything ur told
maybe ur Rebbi makes some claims that need not be taken literally??use some common sense pholeeeeez
modesty nd mezoozot have noting todo with harm or preventing harm!!!
wen will yall grow up out of ur caves!!
ive went to beth rivka nd yall blind
RE: post 90
for those who trust the Rebbe know that he has not a selfish bone in his body!
the Rebbe’s track record which has been proven many times as superior to top Doctors & Scientists,
those who follow the Rebbe are doing so reasonably not blindly!
his track record of supernatural knowledge & supernatural healing is beyond refute
see what Sharon said re the very first plane hijacking in the world, the Rebbeh warned him & saved his life! there are countless examples proving that the Rebbeh is a credible trustworthy source to follow!
if the Rebbeh told people this will protect you from harm than you are wise to take him seriously!!
95
for someone who believes the Rebbeh & dresses untsnius, Yes they are being reckless & inconsiderate to their neighbors!
unfortunately!
not to mention the blessings they forfeit to their own family!
to: 95 - no hard feelings intended
the Rebbeh would encourage all people believers & non believes to take a step up in their growth
so pls consider taking a step up at what ever level you are currently at!
put it to the test, you will g-d willing see its worth while! Amen!
who is millhouse?
who is millhouse?
just bec you studied in BR doesnt mean..
just bec you studied in BR doesnt mean you’ve gotten an accurate representation of Chabad chasidus!!
as surprising as it sounds, some of the very basic fundamentals of Chasidic teachings have not been taught or emphasized whatsoever in the “beth rivka” i attended!
unconditional love & tolerance for another even those who are not wealthy or gesheh! Yes teachers many of them lack the refined character & chasidic integrated principles worthy of teaching children!!
few teachers are role models of Tznius or Unconditional ahavas yisroel, many teachers look the other-way when they see one click ganging up & bullying a BT or Foreign fellow student!
many teachers have been selected based on connections Not based on worthiness or Dugma Chaya (a living example of implementing chasidic ideals)
in many so called chabad schools chasiic teachings have been unfortunately usurp by a unchasidic emphasis on memorization & knowledge rather than the main principles of chasidic teachings
namely, Avoda, Refining one’s charactor, Middos tovos, Kindness & Generosity as the most important value in educating young people! & true Yiras Shomayim, where G-d is real & relevant
instead what comes through all to often is emphasis on academics & superficial achievements & an environment that perpetuates the very unchasidic status quoa of social hierarchy, where instead of Middos Tovos being supreme, Gesheh & Money is whats popular & the teachers for the most part perpetuate reinforce this culture
…..
so, no you need not assume that you know yet what chassidus teaches or what chabad really is, even if you were ostensibly raised in “chabad” schools
perhaps a good Baal Tshuva school for beginners such as Machon Chana or Maayanot will present a more authentic picture of what chasidus chabad realty is & how beautiful life is enhanced by this life style properly implemented
Milhouse
#95: “thats the whole problem with blindly believing everything ur told maybe ur Rebbi makes some claims that need not be taken literally??use some common sense pholeeeeez”
Aha! “ur Rebbi”. If you are not a Lubavitcher what are you doing here?
And immediately we see that the rot goes further: “modesty nd mezoozot have noting todo with harm or preventing harm!!!”
This is outright kefirah. The Torah says mezuzah protects and you say otherwise. So you are not even a believing Jew. What are you, an atheist? A Christian? In any case, such views have no place here.
Milhouse
#99, who are you?
#99
I’m a traditional shliach working in chinuch in a frum community, out of NY. Traditional being I do the “traditinal” things that were once part and parcel of being a chossid- i.e. following halacha and chassishe minhagim, trying to do what the Rebbe wants, etc. I also happen to be a curious person who has seen ur comments come up quite often and like the way u clarify halacha,etc. :)
Hoo hah!
Here’s the thing—- I know women who don’t always present themselves with perfect tznius but are so kind and really spiritually connected. I know women who are always tznius but are often mean-spirited, unkind, and nasty to others. So I opt for behavior from the inside, not from the outside. The inside is from the heart, while the outside is from , well…., the skin. Now if you do both, then…..hoo hah….you must be something!
Who are you, #101 Millhouse?
May I ask who YOU are to state that such-and-such a view does not belong on this site? No one is blocked from this site, as far as I know, unless some blasphemous, horrible comment is a totally evil one. I can say the grass is pink when the lake freezes in Hawaii tomorrow!!!! This is a free public site, regardless of the opinion you have that appears to think otherwise.
stargazer
Everyone keeps saying that the Rebbe said the safety of Eretz Yisroel is affected by the tznius of the women and also various tragedies were as a result of lack of tznius. PLEASE WRITE WHICH SICHA AND WHAT CHELEK AND PARSHA? Women would like to see the quotes.