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Beis Din Ruling: Manhattan Menorah Is World’s Largest

A years-long dispute between two Chabad organizations over whose public Menorah claims the distinction as the world’s largest has ended up in front of the Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch, which issued a definitive ruling yesterday.

The dispute pitted the Lubavitch Youth Organization (LYO), headed by Rabbi Shmuel Butman, against the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish Education (NCFJE), headed by Rabbi Shimon Hecht.

The LYO maintains the giant public menorah on Manhattan’s Fifth Avenue adjacent to Central Park, which for many decades was the sole one to claim to be the world’s largest halachically kosher menorah. However, in more recent years, the NCFJE, which maintains a similarly large menorah in Brooklyn’s Grand Army Plaza adjacent to Prospect Park, began to bill its menorah as the world’s largest.

The dispute was picked up by several local media outlets and was seen by some as a good-natured spat between friends, however, this year the LYO called the NCFJE to Beis Din, claiming that they had been using the title first for many decades, and the attention the dispute was getting every year was creating a “Chilul Hashem.”

The dispute was heard by rabbis Moshe Bogomilsky, Efraim Piekarski, and Boruch Lesches of the Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch.

Yesterday, Rosh Chodesh Kislev, they issued their ruling, siding with the LYO and prohibiting the NCFJE from calling their menorah the world’s largest. Instead, the Rabbonim suggested, the Prospect Park Menorah should be billed as “the largest in Brooklyn.”

A source told CrownHeights.info that while both Menroahs’ eight candles are 31.5 feet above the ground – the maximum allowable amount for a menorah to be kosher according to Jewish law – the ‘Shamosh’ candle in the center of the Park Slope menorah rises to 33.5 feet, while the Manhattan menorah’s is “a mere” 32 feet high.

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94 Comments

  • I Am Shocked

    I’m so angry right now. Is this true? This is what these big Rabbis spend their time doing? Fighting over whose menorah is larger? It honestly sounds like a little childrens’ game. What horrible news. I am downright embarrassed. I am embarrassed of the childish behavior of these “respected” Chabad rabbis. I am embarrassed that they are Chabad. Yes I understand having the title of largest menorah is glorious and feels great, but. How old are we? Who do we represent? Let’s not lose focus here. Its about spreading the light of Chanukah, not about the inches.

    • Anonymous

      You assume it took them days, poring over books. It probably took them 5 minutes.

  • Ok

    Now we can focus on bringing Moshiach.

    It appears that some have plenty of free time on there hands.

  • Milhouse

    This so-called “psak din” is ridiculous. It is absolutely irrelevant how long Tzach has been using the name. The only relevant criterion is which menorah is actually taller. If Tzach’s menorah is still the tallest in the world then its right to say so rests on that fact, not on how long it’s been saying so. And if its no longer the tallest then it must stop saying it is, no matter how long it used to be true. If they’re both exactly the same height then neither of them have the right to the title.

    This so-called “beis din” would probably have claimed that since the Eiffel Tower was the tallest building in the world for over 40 years, and marketed itself with that title, it should still be able to do so, and the Empire State building had no right to take over the title, let alone the Johnny-come-lately Burj Khalifa, which has only been the world’s tallest building for less than 10 years!

    • Ezra

      Apparently Milhouse, who supposedly is smarter than all of the rabbanim involved in this, has failed to consider the elementary possibility that both menorahs are exactly the same height. A moment’s thought would suggest that indeed that’s so, since unlike a skyscraper, a menorah does have a maximum height.

    • K

      Both menorahs are of equal maximum height of 31.5 feet, the shaylah is Brooklyn has an extended shamosh rising 2 feet higher – is the shamosh part of the menorah or a separate entity?

    • Milhouse

      If they are exactly the same height then neither one is the tallest, but both are “one of the tallest”. Either both use the title or neither does.

      If the question is whether to count the shamosh (like the question of whether to count the antenna in a building’s height) then the “psak” should have focused on that. Instead it’s not even mentioned, and the “psak” is all about who used the name first, which is completely irrelevant.

    • Milhouse

      Apparently Ezra can’t read, because he failed to notice that I did consider the very thing that he imagines I didn’t. What part of “If they’re both exactly the same height then neither of them have the right to the title” did he not understand?

    • Idyut

      Milestone what exactly did you go threw in life that you always have the most genius comments? NOT!

    • Crown Heighter

      The menorah is a machlokes in metzius….namely, who’s metzuis is bigger. LYO won.

  • Get out the measuring tape

    I don’t understand what this has to do with a beth din ruling. A simple measuring tape should resolve the issue.

  • Seriously???

    This is what you are busy with? Your egos? With all the shluchim having so many difficult challenges, trying to survive, losing donors, raising SN children, & you worry about who has the bigger Menorah?

    Both parties should be ashamed of themselves. How much did it cost – not just in $ but also in time & respect. Pathetic & quite frankly, a chilul Lubavitch. Time to grow up, boys.

  • crown heightser

    BH, we can all sleep peacefully now that we know which Menorah is larger.

  • Purim is not for another 3 months

    I can’t believe this is real I was sure it’s a purim joke!

  • kop Dr

    who cares ! lets see which org. does
    more chesed
    more mivtzaiem
    more naces to the Rebba
    more avat yisrole
    thats what counts not how big
    yr menora is
    come in on were are we going
    what will be with our children
    ????? hashem yeracaim

  • great

    Whee!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
    Now we can all sleep peacefully. This is really such an important issue that it superseeds all other issues that we have.

  • Call go help

    If this would be would be a joke it would be funny otherwise if this indeed true and is real then we have stooped to all new low at a completely new level a level that’s not just about money as that battle has been fought many times already but now a new front has been opened a battle and din torah exclusively about ego a battle that clearly shows that mission and purpose is being forgotten it’s a shame and embarrassment to the world that pettiness has taken charge over common good and common sense if rabbis can’t solve this and need to go to battle what hope is there for the common folk these leaders of both sides need to do self introspection and consider resigning from thier post as its now apparent they are deeply troubled and lost thier way and have thier vision at a complete loss with no sense of leadership perhaps it takes an event like this as a wake up call that we have now reached rocked bottom and perhaps we need to drain the swamp and seek new leadership
    Or have these rabbinical leaders take the 12 step program and seek help for ego addiction this is a serious problem they are evidently up against and need to seek help its now in the open if you seek help you will only gain respect rather the further deteriorate and take the rest of your institutions further down with you the question you need to answer is not who has the largest menorah but rather who has the largest ego I the world ?

    • Baal Tshuva Laughing at Them

      It’s still about money.
      With such a honorable title of the largest in the world (haha, who cares?) they can raise more money and fund such a stupid dispute.

  • To all you farmers

    Yes I would agree the argument is ridiculous but what they are really arguing about is who can “trademark” the title and bring in the donors. It is essentially a dispute about money as most other disputes shluchim have amongst eachother. Rabbanim accepted this din torah as they accept all dinei torah of similar nature.

    Sometimes u gotta think deeper

    • Milhouse

      And the answer should be that nobody can have a trademark on a statement of fact. Such a statement is either true or false, and those for whom it is true have the right to make it, even if it only became true yesterday.

    • Milhouse

      Don’t be sillier than you have to be, K. “World’s tallest leprechaun” is not a statement of fact. It’s a fanciful title adopted by an actor. Naturally if customers know him by this title it would confuse them for other people to use the same title. “World’s tallest menorah” is a statement of fact, which is either true or false, and cannot be protected as a trademark.

    • K

      I was told (from unofficial sources) that the Bais Din consulted with the people at Guinness World Records.

    • Milhouse

      The “psak” says it’s based entirely on who had the title first. How could Guinness have helped them with that? Even if it could, so what? It’s an irrelevant criterion. They should takeh have taken the dispute to Guinness, not to the “beis din”, which is not competent to decide a matter of objective fact.

    • K

      There is “torah she’bi’ksav” – the “official” written psak, and there is also “torah she’baal peh” – the unofficial verbal discussions of the bais din. Not everthing that was considered and discussed is in the psak (for reasons that the bais din knows). Much more was considered and investigated by the bais din than what was written in the psak! Do not judge them in haste – I am told that they are wise and intelligent rabbonim!

    • Crown Heighter

      K, you are right!

      The bais din used Guiness as a mokor for their psak din, but did not quote then in their marei mekomos:

      The Guinness World Records’ record for the largest menorah in the world was designed by Yaacov Agam and is 32 ft (9.7 m) tall, 28 ft (8.5 m)wide, weighs 4,000 lb (1,814 kg) and was unveiled on 29 December 2005 opposite Central park, New York, USA. The menorah was designed according to a hand drawing by Mimonides based on the original Menorah in the Holy Temple of Jerusalem and is the largest size permitted by Halacha-Jewish law.

    • Milhouse

      Whatever the “dayonim” allegedly discussed among themselves is irrelevant; there is only the written “psak”, and when that is invalid on its face there is nothing else to consider. The “psak” makes no mention of which menorah is in fact taller, which is the only valid criterion. It talks only of the utterly irrelevant question of who used the title first. Therefore it is not a psak at all, but a worthless piece of paper that deserves public scorn.

  • umbelievable

    my father is stronger than your father. Remember when we were 5 years old and this was important?
    It is embarrassing. I hope no non lubavitcher frum normal person sees this. why is it even posted? I am mortifyed by this whole issue

    • Anonymous

      I firmly disagree my father is a bodybuilder and a professional MMA fighter I would therefore totally disagree your dad is stronger

  • seriously

    this is about money. both sides raise money for “the largest menorah” so you cant have 2 largest menorahs. all the expenses for the menorah (advertise, helicopter, cherry picker etc. etc.) this is being fund raised. The slogan is “largest menorah in the world” that is what the fight is about. Always money

    • Milhouse

      Yes, it’s obvious why the dispute exists. What’s not clear is how this so-called “beis-din” came up with such an obviously invalid “psak”.

    • CR

      WADR, Milhouse, you did not see the micro-image of a kangaroo in the header of the “Central Committee” letter….

    • K

      If you disagree with a psak of bais din – it becomes “invalid”?

      If you do not understand how bais din came up with their psak – the bais din is “so called” possul?

      I sthat your attitude to torah and rabbonim?!

      Lo sossur min haderech, even if they tell you on yemin (what in your mindis yemin) that it is smol – isn’t THAT what the Torah tells us about bais din and piskei din???

    • Milhouse

      Yes, the “psak” is invalid, and the so-called “rabbonim” who came up with it have made fools of themselves and a mockery of halacha. This is not even טעה בדבר משנה, it’s inventing a non-existent mishneh. When a so-called “beis din” decides who has the right to make a factual statement without any attempt to inquire into its truth or falsity, but merely on the basis of who used it first, then it is not a beis din at all and deserves universal contempt.

    • K

      There is a remarkable psak is a unique sefer (that even Chabad respects the author) that says the following:
      כִּי יִפָּלֵא מִמְּךָ דָבָר לַמִּשְׁפָּט – בֵּין דָּם לְדָם, בֵּין דִּין לְדִין, וּבֵין נֶגַע לָנֶגַע, דִּבְרֵי רִיבֹת בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ – וְקַמְתָּ וְעָלִיתָ אֶל הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר ה’ אֱלֹהֶיךָ בּוֹ.
      וּבָאתָ אֶל הַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם וְאֶל הַשֹּׁפֵט אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם, וְדָרַשְׁתָּ וְהִגִּידוּ לְךָ אֵת דְּבַר הַמִּשְׁפָּט.
      וְעָשִׂיתָ עַל פִּי הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ מִן הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר ה’ וְשָׁמַרְתָּ לַעֲשׂוֹת כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ.
      עַל פִּי הַתּוֹרָה אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ וְעַל הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ תַּעֲשֶׂה, לֹא תָסוּר מִן הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל.

    • Milhouse

      a) Since when are these so-called rabbonim the sanhedrin?

      b) Even the Sanhedrin’s “psak” is invalid when it’s טעה בדבר משנה, let alone when it doesn’t even bother pretending to be interested in the truth. אתם אפילו מזידים applies only to kiddush hachodesh, not to any other topic. If a Sanhedrin tells you openly that pork is kosher because we’re the Sanhedrin and the law is whatever we say it is, that pronouncement is ultra vires and does not have the status of a psak at all. It is not הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ.

    • K

      Milhouse, Did you think the possuk only applies to the sanhedrin?! Oy! Oy!
      Kol haposel, b’mumop posel! You say that THEY were משנה טעה בדבר and then claim that this possuk applies only to a sanhedrin and not rabbonim!

      Although there is indeed such a MINORITY opinion (only these: ספר הכוזרי, מאמר ג, סימן לט and רמב”ם, הלכות ממרים, פרק א’ and השגת הרמב”ן על ספר המצוות לרמב”ם, שורש א, בפסקה “והנה” and also דרשות הר”ן, הדרוש השנים עשר ) still, that is NOT the accepted shitah of the MAJORITY of rishonim.

      Check out these rishonim: Raavad and בחידושי הריטב”א, מסכת שבת, דף קל עמוד א and also שו”ת הרשב”א, חלק ב, סימן שכב and also ספר החינוך, מצווה תצה (and MANY other rishonim!!) that this Mitzva Assay and Mitzva Lo Sa’Assay applies to all rabbonim!

    • K

      I am astounded when there is blatant am ha’aratuz of balie batiem who claim to be greater masters of Torah than rabbonim!! Incredible!!

    • Crown Heighter

      I just love it when K (the snag from BMG) quotes chapter and verse to prove Milhouse totally wrong. Good job! Kol Hakovod!

    • Milhouse

      Yes, it applies only to the Sanhedrin. That is what the Torah explicitly says. It certainly does not apply to our “rabbonim” who don’t even have a real smicha.

      And even in the case of the sanhedrin it does not apply to a “psak” that is invalid on its face, as this one is.

    • K

      So you Milhouse disagree with the Raavad, Ritvah, Rashba, Sefer Hachinuch and a majority of Rishonim and poskim. There is a name for someone who disagrees with Torah…Kofer.

      Also, you consider a “psak” only what is written on paper…I guess Torah shebaal peh was worthless till it was written down…a name that comes to mind is Tzedukim and Baysusim.

  • And we wonder

    Why our youth is not inspired ??? How can these “Rabbis” show their faces ?
    Feh.

  • Just think what could be accompliched

    If these Rabbis put the same energy into helping a family in need, freeing an agunah, paying for special needs education, in other words: doing SOMETHING / ANYTHING that would actually help a fellow Jew ?

  • wow i like to attend both but

    these news upset me and i will probably look into another place to go with my kids ….mahlokes on the title who is bigger on CHanukah ? the only yom tov that spread lights all over the world … chabad ? where you are real chabad , where is the real hessed ???? money money money rule the wold ….sick of u guys

  • Yes

    Yes, it sure says a lot, about both of these marginal organizationa. They may, at one point have been relevant, but their ship has long sailed, hence the need for such pettiness.

  • LYO called NCFJE to Beis Din

    Lets get it straight who is being a baby here. LYO needs to have their title, even though they are not the largest!
    Rabbi Butman, please get a real job

  • Who Has the Biggest

    who has the biggest beard, Who has the biggest Mikveh, Who has the biggest Gartel, Who has the biggest Sukkeh,
    WHO HAS THE BIGGEST EGO !!!!

  • Concered

    I would not be drawn to their method of operating but you should deeply respect teo people who work full time for many dacades running many important operations and yes something like this title brings infinitely more media attention which gives them access to much more donors and audiences which helps many thousands directly. So all I see is a affective structure for resolving disputes allowing the holy work to continue. All who want angels and heavenly community workers should probably get involved themselves and devote more time to community work

  • Anonymous

    What a Chilul Lubavitch!! I can’t imagine for one second that the Rebbe would get Nachas over this pathetic fight!! And to air out dirty laundry as well, in addition to the sad fact that this even occurred in the first place!

  • not being fair

    the only one that may have understood is number 33.
    it clearly states that LYO is the one who took the NCFJE to Beis Din.
    LYO was upset that NCFJE billed their Menorah as the largest and the little guy ran to Beis Din.

    It does not state that NCFJE did anything other than claim their menorah is the largest… SO WHAT????!!!!

    WHY CAN’T THEY BOTH CLAIM THE SAME THING???
    WHO CARES???????
    WHY CARE????????

    KINDER ESS IZ UNZ BITTER.
    When a little man gets all bent out of shape when someone claims something taller then it’s time he gets a referral for a really good shrink!

  • Looking at a bright side

    1st of all I think this is pathetic. With the said. Just to look at some bright side of this, at least they did not go to a secular court. That probably would have been a bigger chillul hashem.
    2nd, why do we need to know about everyone’s little/big fights? I think when such stories are advertised, it makes things worse..

  • Mitzvah Menorah

    THE BIGGEST MENORAH IS THE ONE THAT INSPIRES ANOTHER YID TO LIGHT ONE!!!!!!!!!

  • who cares???!!!!

    and why does something like this have to end up in court… .crazy…. and stupid.

  • Mm

    Rabbi Butman and the rest of the lyo should get a life and stop creating chillul hashems.
    And anyways the Brooklyn menorah is known to be taller.

  • TL

    Two important points

    1) the one at grand army plaza is taller.

    2) Butman called them to din torah.

    P.s.
    Butman does not listen to bais din anyhow, so not sure why he calls other to a din torah.

    TL

  • observer

    answer to 34: exactly… the Beis Din ruled who has the biggest EGO … i wonder what they get out of all their Tanya learning … seemingly nothing …

  • My 2 cents

    The teach one is larger. The NCFJE one is taller. I think that Tzach is right to insist they are the largest as it is easily composed of largest mass of metal. Tzach one just has a tall base but is structurally scrawny. Now everyone can live happily ever after

  • CR

    Seriously, the “Central Committee…of the US And Canada” has time for this? Even the Central Rabbinic Congress (v’chulu) is laughing.

  • THin Matzah

    I hear there is now a Din Torah between CH Matzah bakery and BP Matzah Bakery who has the worlds thinnest matzah

  • People please...

    it’s not the size of the Menorah that counts, it’s how you use it. How many people will be inspired to light this Chanukah because of your Mivtzoim, Pirsum Haness?

    Measure: how many Chanukia were given to Yidden; how many donuts a Brocha was made on; how many times has someone shared a dvar Torah on the meaning of all this… but with confidence and chayus with proud Yiddishkeit to a Jew thirsty for answers who is waiting for the Rebbe’s Shliach?

  • Sources?

    Maybe it’s just me, but I’m always at a loss to understand how rabbanim can issue a psak din without giving any references at all to dinim. I don’t see a single reference to the Gemara or to Shulchan Aruch in this ruling. Do they just listen to both sides and then pasken based on their personal opinions? Does Torah have anything to do with it?

  • Yes

    Both (LYO and NCFJE) are babies!

    LYO – For calling NCFJE to a Din Torah for this Shtus.

    NCFJE – For acting like babies and insisting on antagonizing LYO by calling there Menorah the tallest

    Both deserve the title of BABIES!

  • It's Not about Money

    Anybody that gives money doesn’t give a hoot about who’s Menorah is taller .

    They would however very much care if they where to find out that their money went to fund a silly din Torah like this.

  • LYO

    LYO is a wonderful organization ….

    when they are not going to bais din to help rabbi Butman’s son avoid giving his wife a get by concocting all kinds of “policies ” they are busy with this very important litigation.

  • Yiddishkeit

    What is Yiddishkeit? It’s saying, Wow, I’m so Glad that YOU ALSO Have the Tallest Menorah!

    But now it’s sadly about who can get the RICHEST Hedge Fund Managers to give the most money for Lighting a Candle on THE TALLEST, THE REAL TALLEST, THE MOST TALLEST, Menorah.

    Need to send more Chabad Sons to College Courses to be Accountants, Lawyers, Doctors- so that they don’t need to scrounge around for Hedge Fund Managers to support them buy Lighting the TALLEST Menorahs and going to Din over it.

  • Crown Heighter

    Everybody, I have the world’s largest latkeh. It’s mine and no one has a right to claim their latkeh is larger than mine.

  • Chilull Shem Lubavitch

    The Chilul shem Lubavitch that this “Psak” was supposedly trying to prevent is all over.

    Just google Butman / Chabad menorah and see what comes up its horrible.

    Butman should get a life , and the Rabonim that participated in this “Din Torah” should grow heads on their shoulders.

    very embarrassing!

    • Crown Heighter

      Rules of DT are that BOTH sides pay. In court, the loser pays costs. That is fair and how it should be in DT!! Someone with deep pockets can bankrupt a poor fellow with frivolous claims at DT.