When you walk into a typical Lubavitch yeshivah gedolah, you see bochurim sitting over seforim and conversing. They are presumably discussing whatever is inside the sefer open in front of them. It looks pretty good.
Op-Ed: The Decline of Tomchei Temimim
When you walk into a typical Lubavitch yeshivah gedolah, you see bochurim sitting over seforim and conversing. They are presumably discussing whatever is inside the sefer open in front of them. It looks pretty good.
What you don’t see, and you cannot see, is what they are actually discussing, and how many bochurim didn’t even show up in the first place. In short, a disturbingly large amount of bochurim don’t really do anything productive for much of their day. If you would like to know what the average Lubavitcher Bochur does most of the day, the answer is… sleeping and socializing!
Now, this contemporary Lubavitcher bochur doesn’t really do anything wrong per se. He hardly ever gets into any trouble; he davens, farbrengs, goes on mivtzoim, acts like a mensch, and sits in front of a sefer most of the day. What more can you ask of him?
The problem is that there isn’t really anything ensuring that he’s actually doing something productive. It is very, very easy to sit in yeshivah for three or four years and not get anything substantial done. Why? Because yeshivah gives you a certain complacency; it’s a very comfortable place. You have everything you need, begashmius, and beruchnius. You have friends, farbrengens, mashpiim, and besides, there’s nowhere else to go for a good bochur. In such an atmosphere, chassidishkeit and yiddishkeit can easily become a comfortable routine. You’ve arrived, you’re a good bochur and that’s it.
If you think about it, this attitude is so far from what chassidishkeit and yiddishkeit are all about it’s shocking. Torah is a journey, a constant avodah. It is strange and disturbing that us Lubavitchers of all people are struggling with such an issue. Avodah is what chassidus is all about! I know I’m only a bochur in Zal, but bochurim seem to be the only ones capable of seeing what’s actually going on in yeshivah.
Tomchei Temimim has descended from a place of integrity, refinement, devotion to Hashem and his Torah, and intense, sincere dedication to self improvement and achievement, to a place of laziness, complacency, and bad habits.
To make matters worse, as far as I know, no one is addressing it. It seems as if most mashpiim and roshei yeshivos, are frozen in time, following the formula their predecessors laid out by example. They either don’t realize what the issues are or how important they are; or they are simply too fearful to make a move using their own creativity and initiative. A system like this is doomed to failure. It may look nice on the outside, but it is slowly cracking and crumbling at the foundation.
So all you Mashpiim and teachers out there: we respect and look up to you for guidance. Look at your bochurim and study them closely. Is this what the Rebbe wants from his elite soldiers? Figure out what’s wrong and do something about it! Many good sincere bochurim are realizing that they have to make a choice. Either choose to be in yeshivah and actually be there, or choose to go somewhere else and be there. Unfortunately, many of these more conscious bochurim, lacking direction and leadership, choose the latter, leaving the warm, nurturing, Chassideshe atmosphere of Yeshivah, and prematurely entering the cold, turbulent waters of the modern world. I have to admit that these bochurim deserve a lot of credit and respect for taking their life into their own hands and choosing to do something, and for not just sitting idle and wasting these precious years of their life.
And all you bochurim out there, stop and think. Is this what you’re here for? Don’t let these crucial years slip by. Choose to be in yeshivah. Demand more from your mashpiim. If you have issues with yeshivah, don’t let it eat away at you from the inside out. Speak to someone you admire and trust. Take the reins and show some leadership. The future is in our hands.
This is not a complaint or a stomachache. It is a wakeup call. I hope it is loud enough that all the sleepy ones out there will wake up and look around.
Confused
why in the world would u publish this? Chilul Lubavitch… Yea
rubbish
?????
True
It is 100 percent true…..the truth hurts….well written
Detroit yeshivah
And there you go thats why there is such a yeshivah called “DETROIT” that isna yeshivah were not 1 bocher ever wastes his time.! On the contrarery every bocher sits and learns.!!!! They are chasidish and smart.!! Whoever is looking for a good yeshvah should send them to detroit and all probloms are solved.!!! Take my word.!! U have the best rosh yeshivah overthefe rabbi steinmetz.!! You wont. And i mean YOU WONT FIND ANOTHER CARING PERSON LIKE HIM.!! And the. U have rabbi g a amazing cahrecter he is just a funny kind person.!!
TAKE MY WORD DETROIT IS THE BEST YEAHIVAH OUT THERE
mendoza
to who ever wrote this artical . if u think u have something smart to say to the world ,then were is yr guts ? put yr name to the letter , get some if dont have any …
yr such a coward to rant on chabad and not put yr name
at least shac came out in public to throw his garbage , but you ? you just a coward
True blue
But true for many
a bocher who went throw the --system--
sleeping and socializing!!! thats what i did for 7 years but hey i still put on tefilin….
me
why – cause it needs to be said n acted upon. this is why the tzfati do what they want in 770 etc. why ab respected rabbi was beaten up bt them – because no one does anything
confused
ya thats why detroit shut down- cuz theres so many good bochurim there…uhuh…explain that one to me
The answer is....
Very true and well written (which makes me wonder if he’s really a yeshiva student?)
The problem is that the Yeshiva system is viewed as an end all. The yeshiva years are look upon as the precious time a person has to dedicate to the study of Torah. So as long as you are sitting in Yeshiva and studding you are doing what the system was setup for. You might not be advancing your knowledge or your method of learning. You might just be reviewing the same material over and over. You might be learning more “meforshim” but not a new method of learning. In short, you will walk out of yeshiva with nothing more than the time you spent there being immersed in the atmosphere of torah study. And that’s all the yeshiva really wants from you.
to Mendoza
He isn’t a coward. He is a realist. Anybody who puts his name to an article risks taking heat. Now the writer who writes he’s in zal, risks the disdain from Yeshiva, friends, etc. and who knows maybe even shadchonim. So in this day and age (especially when you are unaccomplished, as the typical 18 year old tends to be) you have to be either accomplished, nuts or superbly gutsy to put your name to an op-ed.
absurd op-ed
Sitting in a yeshiva setting, even if you’re not learning at all times, is a billion times greater then the dangerous and turbulent waters on the outside. It sounds like you need a good chassidishe mashpia. If you want to improve the system then talk to the leaders diectly. There are bochurim who are in it all the way and do not waste time.
learn farbreingens videos of the Rebbe!
in the years prior to gimmel tamuz there was always a push for learning the rebbe always came out with mivtzas of learning like haoros ubiurim, the kanim and there were farbreingens every week to chazer over and to learn by heart, there was always a push for learning but now a days we are far into golus, noone is pushing bochrim to get somewhere in learning and at least to have one masechta of shas baal peh, theres not too many bochrim which sit and chazer farbreingens like it used to be. no, its not only mashpiim`s fault although it is their achrayus to farbreing and to encourage everyone in this issue but it dosent help that much, bochrim should start learning farbreingens of the rebbe and they will start to feel there`s someone here even if the rebbe is not here begashmiyus they will feel good about themself and feel the push and the need for learning.
but we still need the Rebbe back begashmiyus!
bebirkas “zol shoyn zain di geulah”
37 year old
“
This is not a complaint or a stomachache. It is a wakeup call. I hope it is loud enough that all the sleepy ones out there will wake up and look around.”
this is the biggest stomachache i ever hurd i a long long time
ARE YOU CRAZY you have nothing better to do with your life but to sit here and wright stupittety
Not just a tirade
This posting is a Chillul Hashem and is only published here to evoke responses and hits and that is a travesty. This is not the proper forum to discuss this or even bring it up if one really is interested in improving matters.
That said the issues raised are sadly legitimate ones that the Roshei Yeshiva and hanholoh should address and correct but as R Yoichonon Gordon O“H (Hrh”ch, Gabai Lubavitch Shbilubavitch vchu’) remarked once when someone commented that 770 was not being cleaned properly, “ I wanted to fire the person in charge (in fact the person hired to do the job was a chassidisher eltery chosid) but he is never around for me to be able to fire him.” Vchu’ Vchu’ Vdal.
When a very capable person was brought into Tomchei Temmimim, a number of years ago to bring about a seder gashmi vruchni, the holy head staff of TT“L hounded and harassed him out of his job in a most ruthless and despicable manner.
But enough with the L”H. Let’s address the issue.
1) When bochurim come back from shlichus there is no program for them, no seder for them, no organized curriculum for them no one to whom they are accountable for their time or their learning or anything. There is no one for them to talk to: not for their Gashmiusdikeh needs nor for their Ruchniusdike needs. The Oir Soivev that was always around in 770 and actually was felt as an oir Memaleh, and filled all or most of the needs of the bochurim, to give them direction, yiras shomayim, cheshek in learning, a sense of belonging, striving, yearning, a sense of vniflinu, etc is sadly (at least leinei bosor) missing and video, sichois, igrois etc, are not usually enough.
Not just a tirade continued
Proposed Solutions.
The problem begins long before 770 and is really inherent and begins in the lower grades and just becomes worse as the child gets older.
1) General problem; Style of Chinuch.
The demands of yeshiva and taludic learning is that one needs to acquire skills to be able to learn and advance in analytical skills, language, and grammer of both Hebrew and Aramaic. . A child, then later a bochur needs to learn how to think. Most of the information in a Rashi, in Gemara, in Rashi on gemoroh, Toisfois , Miforshim etc is missing and the talmid has to fill in all the missing information before they can approach a Rashi or a Tois’ or understand a price of gemara.
It must begin with a Rashi: with the rebbe directing the kids to see what is not understood in the posuk that is causing rashi to comment. Direct the child again and again to see the anomaly, or the missing information etc that causes rashi to give his comment or answer. Spoon feeding with out guiding the child to learn thinking skills just handicaps them for all future learning. Unfortunately this process does not allow a Rebbe to cover a lot of material (in the initial stages of learning) and therefore the Principal and Rebbe (even if they are competent or trained in this style of teaching) do not encourage this style of teaching as it does not allow for “covering” much material which might cause one to thing that their Yeshiva is not as good as the other yeshiva which “covered” more material.
In addition the basis of translating any Posuk or Rashi correctly is knowing dikduk very well. The prefixes and suffixes that indicate the correct tense, the correct male or female subject or object, plural or singular etc. Most boys and bochrimlach in their lower and upper teens can not translate properly.
Gemarah, Rashi, Toisfois, miforshim must be taught in the same manner. It must be broken down into small segments and each segment identified. What is the statement, what is the question, what is the answer what is the proof, what is a possible problem with the answer that causes a second opinion etc etc. The Rebbe must guide the students to think, figure out and come up with answers on their own. It will eventually enable the talmidim to do this on their own and want to do this. It is this achievement that becomes a major motivation in wanting to learn. Succeeding and accomplishing, not just regurgitating information, is what instills a sense of pride and accomplishment in a student. Absent of this sense of pride and achievement, let alone a sense of failure, a child will never develop an ability or a cheshek to learn. Unfortunately, “Shteiging” is a dirty word by Chassidim as it emphasizes ego and self etc and therefore shunned, thereby throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The problem is that 15% of students may be able to pick up this learning process without it directly being taught and therefore the teachers and hanholoh assume they are doing a good and correct job and the other 85% of the talmidim are not getting it because they do not try, or are not listening, are lazy etc.
Accountability.
Accountability is one of the key factors that is missing especially for older bochurim. Every Bochur in 770 or any other Yeshiva must be held accountable for learning and covering a certain amount of material in Nigleh and Chassidus, Halacha, Sichois etc, and needs to be tested on it. A Mashpiah or Mashgiach must sit down with each bochur to discuss what he plans to cover. A Rosh Yeshiva, Mashgiach or Meishiv, must test either orally or with a written test on material covered. A talmid should need to write up a kitzur in his own words of covered material if he is not capable of writing chidushim. He must show that it becomes Toirosoi, it becomes part of him thru his effort and understanding of it, and not that he is just repeating words.
Ach d’eu noh raboisi ki rabim heim. This is just a few ideas of what needs to be done to bring back 770 and other yeshivois so that bekoroiv mammesh we should be zoiche to see the Hisgalus of Moshiach MaMeSh and be able to say “Reuh Gidulim Shegdalnu.”
chaim
#5 i am sure the name is known to the web site and sorry why does one have to let his name be known to all?? … is it hard for you to accept the article for what it says regardless who wrote it ?? is it a possibility you feel guilty about something he wrote so you have to knock the person who wrote it???
been ther
To # 4. You lie. The Mesivta is very good, rabi G, very good, Rsh yesive good, hanhole stinks and so the whole plce a waste of time
eli
uh #4….. what? if i am not mistaken the news going round is that detroit has a wake up in shevat/adar every year that no one is learning everyone is sleeping etc.
this article is very well said, totally agre
Worried Father
Thank you so much crownheights.info for taking on this issue, I am a father (a very worried Father) of a bochur in mesivta and I have no idea what to do with my son next year, the only reason I want him in Yeshivah is so he will stay frum other than it me and my son fills the same it is a total waist of time,
in my opinion the problem starts at mesivta were the bochrim are there for 3 years learning stuff they have no shaychus to, I think we all need to go to Rabbi Heller who said that the system in Mesivta MOST Change, Let bochrim learn Mishna or Chumash or Light Gemara rather then Gemara be huyiun most of the day. I spoke to few magidey Shiurim in very good Mesivtas they all told me the same most of my class is day dreaming the entire shuir, lets face it most American boys are not made to learn Maharsho and rif etc, I truly think if we change the mesivta system were we can give this amazing good boys more chayus in learning rather then forcing them to do specific subject once they come to yeshiva gedolah they will excel in their own area of learning. this might also help with all the boys we loose on the way (the 5th son of yeshiva gedola)
Bochur
so something can be done about this!!
oy vey
obviously the writer of this article has no clue what goes on behind the walls of a yeshiva. my advice to you is dont write such negative things about anyone or anything in that matter unless you truly know what youre talking about. as a bochur in yeshiva i can safely say that the rebbe is having alot of nachas from his bochurim
bochur
this is as obvious as ……dont know…black and white sun and moon
but thats why in the good old days 93.7% of boys 13+ were working not learning
only the big brrains went to learn
learning full day is not for the majority of bochurim
maybe 10-20% of bochurim at the most learn more than say…70% of the time
others on average probaly 30% and thats if im dan lechaf zechus
agreed
i’m in yeshiva and i agreed, very very true…realistically written.. NOT extream at all
who is comenting all the time for detroi
is this suposed to be an add for detroit
The first part of # 15
This posting is a Chillul Hashem and is only published here to evoke responses and hits and that is a travesty. This is not the proper forum to discuss this or even bring it up if one really is interested in improving matters.
That said the issues raised are sadly legitimate ones that the Roshei Yeshiva and hanholoh should address and correct but as R Yoichonon Gordon O“H (Hrh”ch, Gabai Lubavitch Shbilubavitch vchu’) remarked once when someone commented that 770 was not being cleaned properly, “ I wanted to fire the person in charge (in fact the person hired to do the job was a chassidisher eltery chosid) but he is never around for me to be able to fire him.” Vchu’ Vchu’ Vdal.
When a very capable person was brought into Tomchei Temmimim, a number of years ago to bring about a seder gashmi vruchni, the holy head staff of TT“L hounded and harassed him out of his job in a most ruthless and despicable manner.
But enough with the L”H. Let’s address the issue.
1) When bochurim come back from shlichus there is no program for them, no seder for them, no organized curriculum for them no one to whom they are accountable for their time or their learning or anything. There is no one for them to talk to: not for their Gashmiusdikeh needs nor for their Ruchniusdike needs. Mipnei Chatoeinu, the Rebbe (N”D or MHM) the Oir Soivev that was always around in 770 and actually was felt as an oir Memaleh, and filled all or most of the needs of the bochurim, to give them direction, yiras shomayim, cheshek in learning, a sense of belonging, striving, yearning, a sense of vniflinu, etc is (at least leinei bosor) missing and video, sichois, igrois etc, are not usually enough.
totally true!!!
wake up friends!!
truth hurts.
A lost bachur
to #15 i am already in yeshiva it is too late for that. who ever wrote this article thank you very much, and who ever wrote the such stupid comments, the truth hurts hu??????
my mesivta gives no direction i am not learning a word in seder not because i don’t want to, but because i am lost don’t get me wrong the rosh, rif , marshal,………. is all great stuff but maybe something on my level????? but than if someone hears that this mesivta teaches such easy stuff they are not “chasiddish its for fryakss” why??? because i don’t have a good head i am fry??????? someone help me?????????
38 year old - Same thing different day
My dear chaver, Absolutely nothing is new. This occurred in the good old days and certainly in the past 25 years that i am aware of. The chassidisher bochurim were the ones who farbrenged and bs’d to the extreme but know . Very VERY few actually learned anything at all. Piekarski simply was passing the time and marking who showed up and who left. The hanhola would occasionally stop a loud bull session that had a few benches involved, but to actually do something about the 99% of the time that was wasted never occurred nor ever outwardly bothered them.
The crying shame is that this is absolute geneiva of hard earned tuition dollars and geneivas daas of parents trust in the yeshivos.
100% wrong and here is why
Obviously the person who wrote this is not in yeshiva, he is someone who is anti chabad.
If he will write a article thats anti chabad nobody will listen so he says he is in zal and that this is the problem but everything else is good so this way we will fall into his trap
Well hes wrong, thanks to most of the comments nobody is falling for this guy, he is 100% wrong, some learn more some less but everyone learns OT has monthly test with a proper point system to make sure every bochur is learning they have classes for the weaker bochurm and the stronger bochurm, they have english teachers and yiddish teachers.
This article is full of beloni, of course there will always be some bochurim that will go thru the system and not learn a word but to make a statement as if its every bochum in every yeshiva is beloni
to #14
You definitely don’t sound like a “37 year old”…
Dovi g
To number 9 yeshivas detroit did not close down. Just they only accept top bochrim and this year they could not find any such top bochrim so thts the only reason why they did not open.!!!!
I know becuae i usto work in the hanahalah overthere.
Margolioth
this artcle should have been titled “The Decline of Mashpiim in Tomchei Temimim”
blaming it on the 17-19 year old Bochurim who are just living and making do with the environment that has been presented to them… by who??? yes let me here it loud and clear..by the the mashpiim!!
either let them do there job and deal with the real issues bochurim are going through no matter how dark and messy it may be, are find a different job and stop waisting nashama’lchs once in a life time chance to connect to their creator!
How dare you?
First of all why do we have to knock right or left there are some bad apples in both camps but whilst some of it MIGHT be true why bring this out for every body to see? Why not go to the MAHPIM and so on and if you do have a valid point I am quite sure somebody would listen and act on it.
The worse kind of person is one who knocks the very foundation from where you come and yet in public, TOMCHEI TEMIMIM is the Rebbe’s mosad founded by the Rebbe Rashab and just because there might be a few bad apples how dare you knock MY Rebbeim because ther are Obiously NOT yours. You have a vendetta against the Rebbeim and all I can tell you is that you are playing with fire R“L.
I personally would NOT c”V harm you or any body for that matter but be a man and say who you are.
Mendy
I don’t understand all of the coments i put a suggestion to stop all of this non sence just go to detroit yeshivah.!!!! Thats what will solve all probloms.!!!
100% true!
I could have written this myself. I learned in Toronto Zal. Those years were the biggest waste of my life. On the average morning five guys would show up on time for morning seder! After mincha guys would just sit and chat. The system needs a major revamping. Roshei yeshivos and menahalim need to be fired and replaced with new more vibrant people. I dont expect guys to learn the ENTIRE day, but 75% would be great. I would say most yeshivos today average under 50.
Solution
Part of the solution is:
Current definition of “Rosh Yeshiva / Magid Shiur” = lamdan.
New definition = Educator.
eli
just like to ask everyone to please check your spelling before you post
LaAniyas Dayti (@gmail)
Motivation. Motivation. Motivation.
Before motivation: Clarity of purpose.
What is a yid here in der velt for? If the ‘mussar’ level of kabbolas ol is insufficient (Perek 41+ in Tanya), then a farbrengen for hours will not motivate, especially if it is from one of the ‘narrow-minded mashpiyim’ who tend to have one answer to all problems, an answer that is no longer resonating with most chassidim (besides bochurim.)
Consider: Most of the great chassidim of yore (100+ years ago) would find no place in 770, and would be ignored anyway. The more assertive of them would be asking questions (or giving answers) that would brand them as ‘apikursim’ ‘mufradim’ or some other fancy inaccurate adjective.
As long as bochurim like the author here, (and the dozens of comments on shidduchim blogs) believe or accept that there is a system, then the creative minded chassidim who are not in ‘the system’ will be ignored. Do not look for them at the head table of farbrengens, neither upstairs nor downstairs, in 770 or in Beis Chomesh. Thay are at neither.
Go-ds right hand man
His cafe eh ,, well it is no surprise to most readers so remember this time of year the study of pirkei avos is encouraged where many modern day/goyishe expressions are from !
So gluttonous behavior was glorified and viewed as strength !
Everyone has to ask themselves if I work all week for shabbos, then work all Omer for shavous I should have a good summer, the time of the Omer is a time discipline is developed and strengthened all summer long until Elul and tishrei when go-d looks at his world/s !
The president is a public servant and so are all firstborns servants of go-d etc.!
Uh yeah that’s why the woman brought the infant to the Shul/yeshiva !
So you owe it to in whose image you got created !
What color is your tisch chalet !
THE UGLY TRUTH
WOW! First Beis Rivkah’s scandal with facebook and now this. We’re on a role here!
#1 this Must be publicized
Unless you have a better way to fix the situation
Hahahaha
Can we eat the ugly truth also !
Go-d bless us!
A new house, a new temple for happiness and rest !
A lost bochur 28
Sorry that was to# 16
Eli
This is unfortunately nothing new. It was this way in a lot of chabad yeshivahs 20 years ago
Mir Mesivta
This is why I am planning to send my son to the Mir when he reaches Mesivta
#4
DETROIT Is ONE Of The Best Yeshivah’s Out There
It’s not the only Best Yeshivah
#30
It Is the TRUTH in a lot (Not All) of Chabad Yeshivahs
Just ask all the Bochrim in Crown Heights
Imagine how much more
Torah knowledge a lot Shluchim would have if they would spend at least 75% of their day learning while they were/are in yeshuvah
Yeshiva Tuition
Not everyone can afford Detroit! Unfortunately, these days Yiras Shomayim must be paid $12-$16k for & that’s not something everyone (anyone?) can afford.
Some Thoughts
Some of the previous commenters already touched on some of what I am about to say. Unfortunately the problems start way back in elementary school. Classes are crowded and have a mix of children from differing backgrounds. The curriculums are based on quantity not quality (I hear this may be changing in some of the Yeshivahs). The teachers teach by rote (repeat and memorize) usually in a language foreign (Yiddish and/or Hebrew) to most of the students. The teachers teach; if the children learn they learn. Are the children really being taught to learn, to understand, to formulate their own ideas and to add to what they are learning? Most children as long as they don’t make trouble get pushed through the system, those that can’t get left back to continue not learning (as being left back to be taught the same way will not help the student) and diminish their self-esteem. Fast forward to High School; now children unprepared to learn on their own are suddenly forced to do so. Those that can’t learn very quickly learn how to occupy their time and make it look like they are learning. Now comes Bais Medrash and learning for Smichah. At least Smichah gives the Bochrim motivation and a goal, so they put their all into it to get their Smichah. As the Rebbe wants Bochurim to get Smichah prior to getting married the Hanhallah are usually more lenient with the Bochurim. Post Smichah, no programs exists to stimulate the Bochurim or to prepare them for the real world post Yeshivah.
The solution can be figured out from reading between the lines of the above:
1) Yeshivahs and Teachers should concentrate on teaching children how to learn with intuitive methods that can reach all types of students. Classes and lessons should be structured based on the capabilities of the students. Curriculums should be based on quality not quantity.
2) Students should be motivated with incentives and goals, but most importantly with a sense of accomplishment.
3) There should be paths available for those that may not continue in Klai Kodesh.
4) Bais Medrash / Smichah programs should be more structured. Post the traditional Smichah, students should be taught a) practical Halachah i.e. Shabbos, Business, Medical Ethics etc. b) Rabbonus – how to be a Shliach, pulpit Rabbi, Melamid, Rov, etc. c) methods of fund raising
5) If the Bochrim are intrigued and motivated then accountability will / should come on its own.
6) The methods of monitoring the Hanhallah and Bochrim should be enhanced.
Hopefully 1) Students will feel more comfortable learning and would feel a sense of reward / accomplishment when they are taught how to learn and appreciate what they are learning so they would not have a need to make it appear as if they are learning. 2) Students will be better prepared to deal with future stages of life.
problem with this oped
these writers take a small problem (yes it may be a problem and there are thousands of problems out there) and they blow it up as if everyone is bad, as if every bochur is wasting his time as if every person is has the same trouble as he does.
If someone has a personal problem they should deal with it, there are many different yeshivos if the yeshiva he is in is not for him let him go to another yeshiva that learns part time and works part time and so on.
The person writing the letter and problem is not writing the letter or problem because they want someone to help those that have it they are looking to stir up trouble to close down the yeshivos. and schools that teach lemudei kodesh
everyone agrees the system is not perfect, parents and supporters need to get involved and have it changed and fixed, not write public letters trying to put down the entire system
Open your eyes and see the fight from within.
These are the worse people because people like you think they are doing it leshaim shamayim
To all Detroit praisers
As long as the true head of detroit yeshiva ffels that a baall nigleh is a nifred, a maskil is a nifred, an oived is a nifred and only a kalike is a true chosid the Yeshiva Gedoiloh will continue to be a very poor yeshiva.
bed
waet ? were like goeim
long live r titsher r master the MOSHIACH for ever and ever oooooooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
Mushpa from detroit
To number 53:
First if all detroit is not a poor yeshivah look at at all the graduitdes ben federmen moshe kotlarksy… Rali resnick… Anati… Moty korf uri labor.. These guys are serious rich people.!!!! How dear you say detroit is a poor yeahvah.???
And second off all i never learnt in detroit but i want to say that what i hear from people is that detroit is the beat yeahvah.!!!
the aha moment
once again thanks for publishing an inspirational article (not). dont we have enough tzuris? cant we help each other to go higher in our avoda or do we have to see article after article by our “very knowledgeable” anonymous? why must we bash ourselves and others? what good does this do? how about finding solutions to our issues? why not encourage? ugh!
YOU DISGUSTING..
WHO GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO SPEAK OUT AND MAKE UP LIES ABOUT BOCHURIM!!!
to #4 DETROIT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rashi
Besser unzere ziboiris fun zaire idis
Oh vey x2
This bochur was madly bored over peach break…
Someone pleas give him something else to do…
Oh and did someone try blaming the food at yeshivas yet…
college
college (undergrad) is more about partying (v’dai l’chakima b’remiza) than studying. At least in yeshivah bochurim are sheltered from the degeneracy that their fellow aged secular and goyim experience in yeshivah. Bottom line is, regardless how much learning a yeshivah (bifrat tomchei temimim) has, it’s a good place.
to #51
beautifully said. you obviously understand the situation very well. you should do something about it! well done
to #51
you are on the button
to #46
its still worth it for the chassidishkeit part!
Real Teacher Writes:
I’m a teacher in a great Yeshiva. There will always be students who use their time wisely, and ones who don’t. This has been a true forever, in any Yeshiva/ life setting.
to #1
theres absolutely no other way!
unless you can think of a different way
to all the mendozas
why dont you write your name?
to all #56s
do you have any suggestions?
there isnt any way to contact mashpim directly!
Mendy
Detroit is the best!!!!!!!!
Open your eyes
What do you mean no-one is learning. Can’t you see the hundreds of Seforim out this morning on each table.
Looking for Macklokis !!!
to # 8
The only time that so-called member of the hanhalla ever showed up at night was to instigate the fight. It’s good thing the Tsafti put him in his place. Let him do his job during the day when he is paid.
Solution:
Many bochorim who wasted their yeshivah years finally felt worth something when they got their smicha. Receiving that certificate is an honourable accomplishment.
There needs to be a smicha style in yeshivah. This means to learn iyun according to halocho, (instead of -just- pilpul), and a test with a smicha on those sugyes.
Of course this means a decrease in the rosh yeshivahs & magidie shiurim sharing their chidushim as much as they would like to, but their could be a compromise.
This would make a world of a difference; the proof is in the smicha programs!
Levi
It’s been like that for a long time. I wanted to take some secular courses when I was in yeshiva and they said it’s against the rules. Instead, we just talked about girls and movies for 8 hours a day. I was in 7 yeshivas growing up, and I’m talking from 12-16 years ago. for many teenage boys growing up, yeshiva is the most damaging thing they will ever do for their character.
where to put the blame
This article puts the blame on the students. it is not the students-it is the Roshei Yeshivos and rebbeim in charge. If the yeshiva was a business and workers were slacking off, the supervisor would be in charge of making sure they were doing their job and if the supervisor wasn’t supervising, then whoever hired him would make sure that the superviser was fired. Yeshivas need to be run more like a business with goals of learning and increasing yirei Shomoyim. There needs to be quality control. There needs to be incentive, reward, and encouragement for the students to learn better.
MM
Start with learning gemorah like the Litvish boys do. Hire some Yeshivish Roshei Yeshiva. Get a gishmak in learning. Follow all the chasidish Yeshivos in BP, they Hire Yeshivish Magidi Shiurim
CrownH
Now start with the boys learning, and the Tznyus by the girls. Teach them to love it. Look around… CH has become the laughing stock of klal Yisroel. Hashem is crying over what goes on here in CH.
Its cool now, however, its not so cool up there.
Everyone has a Yetzer Horah, We gotta control it…
69
on the dot. (except i dont think the article was blaming it on the bochurim)
wow
you’ve proved the author’s point most proficiently!
Former Top Lamdan
This is very accurate and true. As someone who spent 6 years in yeshiva/zal and actively participated in this under-productive reality I can honestly say that this writer is right on the nail.
Yeshiva has become a one size fits all solution to a cookie-cutter problem; and that never works. I recall peers of mine who were “chassidish” and abided by the rules and regulations of the hanholo, but literally didn’t learn a Jewish word. They spent their mornings sleeping off the dunken stupor inspired the previous night’s farbrengen, and then hastily mikvah’d (can’t forget that!) and sped through davening so they’d finish in time for breakfast(because we can’t be late to seder, now can we?). This ‘schedule’ continued with very important “bullshoving’ that goes on between chavrusahs that are seated in close proximity–about all matters from Crown Heights politics to gossip about other bochrim or other varieties of lashon hara.. The fact is, that an overly large focus is given to acting (on the surface) like a chasiddishe bachur (talking the talk, looking the part, etc) but when it comes to actually living as a chassidishe chossid–in action–well, that rarely happens.
The irony of it all is in that when a bochur becomes fed up with the dog and pony show that is Lubavitch yeshiva today, and decides to begin a career, or go to college (gasp!), they are immediately ostracized and looked down upon by their ‘chassidishe’ peers. Yeshiva is not for everyone, and one need not discern this fact from the increasing number of ‘dropouts.’ Look no further than the zal, at the dozens of empty seats at 4:00 PM on a Tuesday. Count the bochurim slumped over their open gemaras, peacefully snoozing away their afternoon while drrizzling the tosfos in a clear layer of drool..until they get awoken by their chavrusah to discuss the latest feud between the honorable rabbonim of Crown Heights and how this groundbreaking news with forever affect the world we live in..
Welcome to Bais Medrash, where if you wear the clothes and talk the talk, you are guaranteed to waste more time than any other teenager on the planet.
the truth
Detroit menahel might stink and behind the sceens it might not be as good as what all the bochrim like, but the avir hayeshivah and the mashpia and rosh yeshivah and the things that happen there is all in very chassidishe way to strengthen the bochrims hiskashrus no doubt about it, no one is 100% perfect but its better then the other ones and by far the most chassidishe avir!
Nobody
#71 – bingo. Even worse, in Yeshiva bochurim are discouraged from finding chidushim in Halacha because they may get it wrong, and the Hanhalah doesn’t try to either.
#73, sorry, but these are adults, and although the Yeshiva should certainly do better by their students, if you are sitting in Zal, stop playing the victim and start learning.
Smorgoner
Very interesting view.
I have little idea if the description is accurate.
But anyone who learnt Chumash and Rashi must quickly realize that part of the description is complete nonsesne. We are told that VeHabor reik ain bo Mayim. The pit was empty it had no water, but the Midrash adds aval nechoshim veakravim yesh po. It did however have snakes and scrrpions.
Friends no bachur spends hours battling his time and does not get invovled in illicet activities. that is the darko shel olam
Let me add that the Rebbe Reb Elimelekh of Lizensk writes that any chavraya that has no leader or rav , then the Samech mem becomes the leader in one manner or another.
Vehamayvin yavin
Are you afraid?
Are you who deny the negative goings-on afraid to take an honest look? An HONEST look. Can you step back mentally and take in the scene? I do think that if there are so many people who have had or have less than adequate experiences, then one owes it to all of us to gather all the maturity and insight one can, and take some responsibility. Where is the leadership? Is it the right leadership? Is the leadership over-extended and in need of assistance? Sorry to say, and no disrespect intended, I find myself thinking back to the backdrop of the Rebbe during farbrengens of yore. I recall thinking that often they did not look like they were very invested in the situation. If you take a look, you can let me know if I am incorrectly perceiving. Anyway, I find myself thinking that some teachers in yeshiva today have a similar affect. It could be that I don’t understand what was or is going on.
To # 30
What?
To #80
You absolutely do not get it. Denial is very sad when, as a result,important things are overlooked. So, if you are not in denial, you might be one of several who is taking part in creating this sad state of affairs. And you might think that all is well. But what you can not deny is that some students are NOT happy, NOT learning, NOT feeling validated, NOT trusting of their situation, and NOT trusting of the people they wish they could really learn from. They are feeling let down. Very sad.
To # 73
What are you trying to say? Your comment is so superficial that it does not represent you well. Your simplicity of expression is underwhelming. Sad.
T0 #73
So sorry. My comment was meant for #80. You are o.k. with me!
Concerned
So much energy devoted to this subject surely indicates how crucial it is to deal with it. It seems to me that there are people who are in no way open to the possibility that there is room for improvement. They blame the students. How unfortunate. Any good teacher should be open to improvement….in their style or their own growth. Anything less indicates a very strong possibility that their ego is getting in the way of a higher purpose. Or maybe they simply are not equipped to be effective in their job. Scary stuff, considering we are talking about the future of our own. I say we need powerful, intelligent, informed, effective leadership who are prepared to take things to a higher level.
To Y-all-
Like the op ed author said originally….Look around. Just look around. Stay awhile. Just show up and observe. What do you find? Hopefully you will let us or someone know. Then we will have something to work with. OR! Have a ferbrengen of sorts and get into it. All are invited, no? OR! Keep offering personal opinions on the internet , and maybe someone will see that this does need immediate attention and act accordingly. Other suggestions? Anyone? Someone? Me?
Dear # 30-
I am worried that you are offended, even hurt, by the writer’s op ed. Are you at least open to the possibility that there is room for improvement? Maybe some yeshiva settings function more effectively than others. Clearly, some comments on this cite indicate that there are places where serious breaches of quality and follow-through exist. Those comments don’t seem like “balonie” to me. They seem like honest remarks by students who are, or have been, there. So, yes there is learning going on. In some places more, in some places less. But something is wrong with this picture, because the learning environment shouldn’t have so much idle jabbering, frequent shloffing, inconsistent attendance, and above all, discontented students who feel they are being let down or disappointed. Since you are invested in this, perhaps you could be someone who can investigate and then bring information to the appropriate places, so that more and better learning occurs. We would be grateful.
For # 80
What if I am NOT in Zal and I do feel that? Then am I still ridiculous? Who said this was abut Zal? It could be about much younger ingerlech, no? I’m young, and I want to learn, but sometimes I need a teacher to be there as a helper. I don’t need him to yell at me. I don’t need him to insult me. I don’t need him to ignore me if I’m not the best student in his mind. I’m not there to try and get away with the least amount of work. But sometimes I need him to step up. I need him to be my teacher. I need to feel he cares about me. I need to see he cares about my classmates. I need to feel that I’m in a good place for learning. Sometimes I feel like this is a fake place. I get confused. I am afraid to tell my parents, because I think they will blame me. They might think I am being disrespectful. But believe me, I am just trying to be the best student I can be.
Dear #7,
Your story is what this op ed is all about. I rest my case. Sorry. I hope you found a way to compensate in a healthy way. Zei gezunt.
Nobody
#90, the article is about Zal, Yeshiva Gedolah, which starts with 17 to 18 year olds.
#84, I never said all is well. I’ll be the first to complain (didn’t I agree with #71? The yeshivas need a better curriculum). But really, an 18-20 year old who is sitting around not accomplishing in learning is responsible for himself. If you want to talk about business (what #73 was all about), in business if you aren’t working, you don’t get to complain about how well your manager supervises you. You work, or you are out – the supervisors aren’t the only ones who get fired. I don’t advocate running a Yeshiva that way, but you aren’t going to get anywhere if you think 20 year olds need to be babysat in order to try to learn something.
Nobody
#90,
To address your comment directly, I’m sorry you have bad teachers. The only solution in your situation is to find the right kind of guidance outside of those who are paid to be in that position, and attach yourself to that. Perhaps your parents can help (you might be surprised how they react to that question, as you likely never spoke with them in that way).
I made it through adolescence without any good adult role model (other than the Rebbe and one or two teachers in Yeshivah, and a couple of shluchim, but only on a limited basis), but I don’t recommend it. What helped me was finding those bochurim who were driven to actually go somewhere in their yiddishkeit and be inspired by them. But I’m still recovering from the experience.
Anon
#60
How would you know what college is about?
It would help you to go to school and broaden your horizons as yours seems to be quite narrow.
I have friends who went OTD because of degeneracy/abuse/perversion they suffered in yeshiva.
pained educator
As one who has raised and worked with young people I will tell you my heretical viewpoint. The abandonment of the traditional Jewish curriculum, something that the Tzemach Tzedek was willing to go to jail to prevent has been done willing by the chassidim of today here in the US. What were the demands? College degrees for teachers, limudei chol in chedarim and editing Torah to make it PC childfriendly. How can one send a boy to 8 or 12 years of a more modern curriculum that does not at all prepare him for true learning in zal? Learning days that are shorter, shortened even further by taking equal time for English dept. In the rest of the world and in some other yeshivas one can see that immersion in Torah works. And let’s not even talk about the yachas to chassidishkeit in a home/chevre where Rebbe stories are boring by 4th grade but batting averages and technology are the the objects of great chayus. To be in the world but above it. The address here is more parents and chedarim than Tomchei Temimim.