Posted to Op-Ed on
by Anonymous

Op-Ed: Are Agunos Becoming a Chabad Problem?

Fact: Divorce happens. Fact: There is never a good Divorce. Fact: Divorce affects all segments of society. Fact: Frum people are not immune. Fact: Chabad has its fair statistical share as well. Fact: Even Shluchim get divorced sometimes.  Ugly Fact: Withholding a Get is a uniquely horrid tool in a husband’s psychological war on his wife during a divorce.

Before the Rebbe’s passing, couples with sholom bayis issues would consult the Rebbe for advice, and by and large they would be sent by the Rebbe to askonim and rabbonim who would work with the couple. And if G-d forbid the opinion of all involved was that the marriage could not be saved, a Get would quietly be issued without great fanfare. So for many years, the Chabad community to a large extent didn’t have to deal with high profile cases of Agunos.

Since the Rebbe’s passing there have been many divorces in the Chabad community. Each in its own way a tragedy, but such is life. On the whole divorce is a very private and painful experience for all involved, and the public should respect the privacy of those involved and not gossip or mix in.

Yet there is an ugly truth that must be faced. Chabad has begun to have a problem with husbands who refuse to give their wives a Get. On the whole, not much can be done other than public shaming, and with today’s mobility from community to community, it may not be very useful.

A divorce on Shlichus is different. The community itself is a partner in the marriage; the pain is felt across a wider span. Yet people understand that Rabbis are humans too and not every marriage works. However, when G-d forbid the husband decides to withhold a Get and make his Rebbetzin an Aguna, this ugly fight can destroy the very fabric of the community, and cause a massive Chilul Hashem.

While Chabad officials should not get involved in people’s private lives, when Shluchim who serve in public positions representing Chabad get involved in high profile divorces that involve the withholding of a Get, there is a vested interest in Chabad’s leadership to get involved, as the Shlichus itself suffers.

I feel that the time has come for Chabad to issue a policy that clearly states that any Shliach – or any person working in an official Chabad capacity – who withholds a Get will be removed from their position, and only after the Get is given will they consider whether to reinstate him.

This will not help every Agunah in Chabad, but it will send a strong message to the entire Jewish world that Chabad – to the best of our ability – will not stand for this outrage.

There is a precedent that Chabad officials should look to: An abusive Shliach in the U.S. who dragged the community and his wife to the supreme court of his state in a very ugly divorce was removed from his Shlichus due to the massive Chillul Hashem he had caused. Had there been a policy in place, this Chillul Hashem might have been avoided.

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130 Comments

    • YMSP

      The op-ed covers up harmful nonsense and disguises the truth that is becoming all too apparent to anyone who knows anything about such cases:

      Here’s who the “aguna” crowd has gone after:

      – Most despicably, so let’s mention this first, husbands (and wives – against Takonos Rabbeinu Gershom which gave them this right for a reason), who want to save the marriage, even if they insist on counseling before a decision and are willing to after. And yes, the activists start with a smear campaign in each of those cases.

      – Husbands whose custody rights have been attacked unfairly and against halacha. The activists, of course, don’t care about the wellbeing of the children in this case,

      Aside from hurting women by promoting divorce on demand, causing invalid gittin (and all that that entails), they also foment hatred between men and women and make the destruction of marriage a “woman’s right.” They care nothing about what’s right or even the long term consequences to the woman or the children. They have a cause to promote.

      There’s a reason that the Torah makes Even the Rambam (the most lenient rishon, and the halacha is not like him), writes that there should be a 12 month waiting period before a get (with no outside crazies stirring up trouble in the meantime).

      They have a cause and they don’t care who they hurt. The problem is that the activists used to be relegated to modern othordox loons and the YU crowd. The problem in the last 10 years are that now many so-called Chabad people have the same harmful and immoral daas akum and have now joined onto a campaign that is about as demonic as the pro-abortion crowd (that yell and scream that anyone who doesn’t support infanticide R”L is against “women’s rights).”

      The abortion activists hurt women the most and don’t want anyone to know the lifelong pain and consequences that a woman who’s aborted her developing child feels.

      The get activists destroy marriages, do whatever they can to prevent reconciliation and also don’t want people to know the consequences of divorce or the consequences of not trying to save a marriage. When a husband wants counseling they’ll use all their force to defend the “right of a get on demand” even though no such right exists and promoting divorce on demand is poison.

      There are some real aguna cases. Pressure in those cases often also invalidates any get and doesn’t usually work. There are many, many more cases where activists shout “aguna” when the case is far different and the results are disastrous. That’s even in real cases, let alone the “aguna activist hype ones.”

      The wars and false smear campaigns that have been waged
      against husbands who’ve insisted on nothing more than well though out decisions prior to a get, wars which include false mesira, media campaigns with complete disregard for the children or even for human decency, are not only despicable, they make the whole community look like vicious fools. It’s beyond sickening that this op-ed was given the time of day given the true nature of the “aguna” activist movement.

      See also HaRav Dovid Eidensohn’s http://www.torahtimes.com for some halachic perspective. There’s a reason why the Torah (coupled with Takonos Rabbeinu Gershom) gives each side the right to prevent a get and that Judaism doesn’t believe in shouting 3 times “you’re divorced” in order to end a marriage.

      It should be noted that there are many states and countries that also mandate a time period before a divorce and many states allow a judge to withhold a civil divorce prior to counseling if one party requests (unlike the shameful move to “no-fault” immediate divorces). Many of those divorces never happen and marriages are put back together, to the sorrow of the get activists.

  • messy

    when there is a divorce the women take advantage, they want to give little or no custody to the men but want the men to pass on high checks every month

    there are so many men that work 2 or 3 jobs to pay their X lots of money just so they can have a few hours a day with their child(ren), the wife takes the money and lives a rich life or goes on and marries another guy with income now from 2 sources.

    and dont tell me that the women pays all the bills because most times the women moves back with her parents or will marry someone else, and when there is high cost like schools or camps the man pays it all.

    its time to split everything 50/50

    women cannot take the place of a father every child needs a father just as much as they need a mother, women need to stop using the kids to get more money or revenge!

    • Anonymous

      Ideally, everything would be split 50/50. But then the children would suffer. Would you as an adult like to change houses every week?

      You also can’t expect the second husband to financially support the first husbands children completely. They already support them in a huge way.

    • CH'er

      very sad but true, however one correction, as far as i am concerned, the man needs to pay alimony & child support long as the woman is single, as soon as she remarries, he is not obligated to pay anymore, he should return to court and or contact his lawyer, please do not pay more then needed at all..

  • Citizen Berel

    FACT – Fact – fact — Ugly fact…

    Ugly truth…

    Never heard of any of this…Now it’s a Chabad problem what needs solutions and special shlichus rules.

    Who are you and how do you know.

    • To Citizen Berel

      Have you been living in a cave? Just because you never heard of it, doesn’t mean it’s not a problem. Do some research before you discredit the author.

  • Anonymous

    What if the husband is willing to give a get (and has been for over 2 years) and the women refuses to call Rabbonim//Batei Dinim back?

    Much more of a problem is the presumption that a secular get accomplishes the same purposes when a secular get is in no ways similar to a religious one.

    • Heter meah rabonim. I did it!

      Then you get a heter meah rabonim. I did it! A man dosent need a woman’s concent if she dosent agree to a get

    • Milhouse

      Heter meah rabbonim is not so easy to obtain. Rabbenu Gershom designed it only for extraordinary circumstances, where in the equivalent case the husband would be forced to give a get. In the ordinary case, where there has been no abuse or anything else that makes it impossible for the husband to stay in the marriage, he is not entitled to a heter meah rabbonim, and if his wife doesn’t want a get he must remain married. A Jewish marriage can usually only be dissolved by mutual consent . The exceptions are just that.

    • Kop Mentch

      Misinformation ALERT! Milhouse announces, ” Heter meah rabbonim is not so easy to obtain.” That might have been true a hundred years ago when nearly every Rov was honest, and with the hardship of travel and communication, getting to various countries to get all the Rabbonim to sign was a challenge! That was how it is SUPPOSED to be!

      Today, it is no big deal. World wide travel, instant communications and hired guns who will “negotiate” signatures from Rabbonim can get you a Heter Maya Rabbonim at microwave speed..

      That is our REALITY!

      (This is a sore subject for the Brisker Rosh Yeshiva Family complaint against the BMG Rosh Yeshiva – so I am familiar with it!)

  • Alon

    bs”d

    Usually the reason for AGUNA’S is , the husband don’t have or don’t want to pay chind supports.

    • Anonymous

      most x tell the courts that they are not working, but really are, and do not give any support to there children

    • Milhouse

      The halacha is made by G-d, not by people. Nobody has the right to even suggest changing it. That is outright heresy.

    • Elkeh

      Just like the chairem drabainuh gershom
      who made polygamy asur AND made it asur to divorce a woman against her will same thing today we need another abainuh gershom to stand up and make trhe agunah problem a thing of the past. In 1000 years they will be saying the same thing that “until a 1000 years ago there were agunos, but these days…”

    • Reb Dovid

      Your comments are apikorses for two reasons #1 Torah can never be changed! The chierem de’rabienu gershom was to restrict a man to marry two wives, it didn’t change anything in Torah! #2 in 1000 years moshiach will be here there won’t be agunos!
      (What you could suggest is that they put the man in chierem, which is actually already being done. Actually Israel a man is held in prison until he gives a get.)

    • Milhouse

      Elkeh, rabbonim can forbid what the Torah permits; they cannot permit what the Torah forbids! A married woman has no right to be with any other man. She is forbidden to all the men in the world, except her husband; that’s what harei at mekudeshes li means. If she goes with another man it is adultery, which is a sin that ranks equal to murder. The only two things that can change that status are a kosher get, or the husband’s death. This is what Hashem said, and no human can change it.

      Reb Dovid, kefiyas get is only allowed in extraordinary circumstances, and in any other case using cherem to force the husband’s hand would make the get possul.

    • Kop Mentch

      Milhouse falsely claims that ” rabbonim can forbid what the Torah permits; they cannot permit what the Torah forbids!”

      Firstly, this is a blatant LIE! The Rabbonim HAVE a koach to tell someone NOT to do something which the Torah requires! (Think of not blowing shofer on Rosh Hashana that falls on Shabbos!)

      More so, the Rabbonim CAN at least temporarily be mattir something which the Torah forbids, as stated in Rambam הלכות ממרים ב:ט:
      יש רשות לבית דין “לגזור ולאסור דבר המותר ויעמוד איסורו לדורות וכן יש להם [רשות] להתיר איסורי תורה לפי שעה”

      Further, as stated in Morah Nevuchim ג:מא:
      …והרשה עם זאת לחכמי כל דור
      … וכן הותר להם עוד לבטל מקצת מעשים תורתיים, או להתיר מקצת איסורים במצב מסויים ובהתאם למאורע מסויים, ולא יהא זה לדורות … כי בהסדר זה תתמיד התורה אחת, וינוהל כל זמן וכל מאורע כפי הראוי לו.

      Further, תוספות נזיר מג ע”ב ד”ה והאי מת מצוה וכן תוספות עבודה זרה יג ע”א ד”ה אמר אביי:

      “ואף כי אין כוח ביד חכמים לעקור דבר מן התורה בקום ועשה, במקום שיש פנים וטעם בדבר ודאי לכולי עלמא יש כוח לעקור”

      This is said in the context of accepting “unacceptable” witnesses to be mattir an Agunah!!!!

      Indeed, Rabbonim can be VERY creative to “get around” prohibitions – they certainly did to improve financial transactions.

      Think of the pruzbul!

      Think of heter iska!

      Think of heter mechirah!

      Even the whole din of “hefker bais din” which uproots Torah’s din of ownership rights!

      Rabbonim CAN be creative also about Gittin and Kedushin. Every couple can get married “conditionally” – that if a Get is refused the marriage is annulled since every marriage is “al daas Moshe v’Yisroel” (-by approval of the Bais Din).

      So Elka, Milhouse is wrong (as usual) and one day your view will be adopted.

    • Kop Mentch

      Milhouse uses cliché to misconstrue the truth: “The halacha is made by G-d, not by people.”

      Sound right, right? WRONG! Hashem gave his Torah to Bnei Yisroel. Torah lav b’shamayim. Hashen does NOT make halacha. Rabbonim make halacha!

      Who dares to say so? The Torah itself!

      בבא מציעא, דף נט עא
      מה עשה הקדוש-ברוך-הוא באותה שעה?
      היה מחייך ואמר:
      נצחוני בני נצחוני בני.

      (See explanation in ספר החינוך במצווה תצ”ו).

      This is another example of how Milhouse deceives the public by “sounding” right, when he is SO wrong!

    • YMSP

      “Kop Mentch” just in case anyone is buying your nonsense:

      – You point to the ability for the Rabbonim (which means the equivalent of a Sanhedrin, not YU machshilei rabbim) to temporarily suspend a certain law because of temporary conditions. Is there anyone foolish enough to believe that you’re not trying to change halacha, but rather advocating the enactment of a temporary injunction?

      – You point to “nitzchuni bonei nitzchuni,” which refers to the power of the Chachomim to pasken against a Bas Kol. It does not refer to overturning set halacha, set by the chachomim. The comparison is flat out hachsholas harabim and unfortunately many are so ignorant or brainwashed by modern orthodox propaganda that they don’t see how much you’re being me’aves clear halacha and divrei Chachomim, ad ain shiur.

      – Who can be maiz ponim today to say that they are chachomim of the stature to suspend Torah law, b’frat after we have a set Shulchan Oruch? No rov anywhere before 1948 ever accepted the premise that if “someone wants a divorce they have the (unilateral) “right” to one.” This is a non-Torah ideology.

      I’ll deal with your unbelievable twisting and distortion of the Rambam vs Halacha and of the words of the Tzemach Tzedek in their proper places, below.

      Throughout Jewish history, most notably Aharon HaKohen and any real Rov since, who worked tirelessly to save marriages and talk people out of gittin. With divorce having today harmed thousands of frum children and harming the women long term far more than the men, one should be putting their efforts into saving marriages, not looking for creative ways to force posul gittin, gittin that are posul according to Torah and sages with all the implications that stem from it.

      Furthermore, we do have rabbonim of today issuing strong piskei din and hachrozos on the issue. These include HRH”G R’ Chaim Kanievsky, ybclc Rav Elyashiv and others stating the serious problems of gitei meuso.

      Yet, despite all this, you have the temerity to say that Milhouse is “making false claims.”

      Shame on you and a rachmonus on your neshomo for being machshil es horabim. Enough said.

    • Kop Mentch

      YMSP tries to defend Milhouse by asking: “Who can be maiz ponim today to say that they are chachomim of the stature to suspend Torah law, b’frat after we have a set Shulchan Oruch?”

      We fully accept the Mishne Brura, both l’hakel and l’hachmir. We fully accept Reb Moshe’s psakim – even when he is in “dispute” with the Shulchan Oruch.

      You also follow the Rav Shulchan Oruch even when he disagrees with earlier poskim!

      Halacha EVOLVES. It is like a growing tree where the branches often go in a different direction than the tree trunk or the tree roots.

      Today we have computer programs that encompass the ENTIRE Torah. A Rov today does not need to remeber all of Shas and Poskim and Teshuvos – the computer can find it for him!

      In many ways, we are more ADVANCED in Torah than earlier generations.

      Before the Talmud was committed to writting, a Tana or Amorah could have misquoted a mishna or brayta. After it was written down, these mistakes were eliminated!

      Some of the greatest poskim of yesteryear sometimes “missed” considering an opinion of a Rishon or a Tosefta because they simply did not have access to it.

      Individually, we cannot ” be maiz ponim today to say that they are chachomim of the stature to suspend Torah law”, but collectively, with the resources at hand, we are like Yiftach b’doro k’Shmuel b’doro.

      We can, and MUST. make takonos l’tzorech ha’shaha (that our time demands).

      Indeed, the Torah itself EMPOWERS us to do so. If we pretend to be “humble” by claiming “who am I to take on such a task” – we are actually following our own opinions while disregarding the Torah’s view.

    • YMSP

      “Kop” Mentch,

      Yes, we follow Reb Moshe’s psak, including that if a woman initiates court proceedings shelo kedin then the halacha to dayanim of ein nizkakin lah applies.

      Chabad doesn’t follow the Mishna Brurah as much, but gives it its healthy respect. Nothing in there remotely similar to what you’re busy proposing on this thread.

      Perhaps you believe yourself to be on the level of Reb Moshe and the Chofetz Chaim and that’s why you wish to impose “new takanos” that they never approached. I hope you don’t.

      I’d also challenge you to find any “new takanos” that either of them imposed either. They sought to clarify halacha (and sometimes they wrestled with how to apply it to new technologies). They, unlike you, didn’t invent a new Torah.

      Above all I want to thank you for putting your position that “Torah evolves” in big bold letters. It will clue people into exactly where you’re coming from. Torah doesn’t change. Halacha doesn’t change when circumstances don’t and this stuff is hardly new. That fact that what you and your ilk propose is cruel, harmful (renders marriage obsolete) and makes a mockery of Judaism if anyone ch”v misconstrues it as Torah thought, is a side issue.

      And, again, no one’s dimwitted enough to buy into that “takanas shaah” argument. It seems like you don’t even know the meaning of the word (of course you do, you just don’t care what it means).

      Not trying to “defend Milhouse” as much as I’m trying to defend Torah and morality from an onslaught of poorly thought out gibberish.

      It also sounds like you’re screaming, are very emotionally involved and can’t (won’t) even approach this logically.

  • correction

    this should be corrected:
    Ugly Fact: Withholding a Get is a uniquely horrid tool in a husband’s OR WIFE’S physiological war on his OR HER spouse during a divorce.

    • Anonymous

      Actually a lot of the problems started because men were filing for secular divorce and then skipping town and/or the country to avoid kesuva $ and then women started going to family court for more favorable settlements and custody decisions while Rabbonim only got involved if one of the other side wanted to remarry..

    • Milhouse

      Actually a lot of the problems started because men were filing for secular divorce and then skipping town

      This doesn’t sound at all plausible. Where did you read such a thing? Are there statistics to support it? In the general world, the statistics show that most marriage break-ups are initiated by the wife, not by the husband.

    • Kop Mentch

      Milhose claims, “In the general world, the statistics show that most marriage break-ups are initiated by the wife, not by the husband.”

      That may be true for the following reasons:

      Men won’t imitate divorce because they are often the wage earners and therefore fear the financial loss of their earnings – greed.

      Women often imitate divorce after being used as a punching bag – self preservation or survival.

      Hummm…greed vs survival. Which is nobler?.

  • Yehudis

    I am disgusted that the majority of these ridiculous comments have been either questioning this op-Ed’s validity or trying to excuse or justify a husband’s withholding of a get. Get refusal is spousal abuse!!! If you are yira shamayim and have faith in the batei din, then you will stand before one, plead your case, and give a get. The agunah phenomenon only exists when a [many times] self-proclaimed “frum” husband either refuses to go before a Beis Din or defies the rabbonim’s psak to give a get.

    Kudos to the op-ed! Way to introduce a legitimate way to solve the problem, at least in our communities. Shkoyach! Thank you for saying SOMETHING.

    • YOU FAIL.

      what you fail to understand, Yehudis, is that in secular court, woman have a major ADVANTAGE, and don’t hesitate to use and abuse it. so this guys luck, he’s religious, and he’s got his own cards. i don’t see why if need be, he should hesitate to pull them out. remember, often it aint abuse, it’s self defense…

    • Milhouse

      Get refusal is spousal abuse!!!

      No, it is not. There is no entitlement to a get, unless a beis din determines, based on genuine evidence, that special circumstances exist that require a get.

      There is no reason to have faith in a so-called “beis din” that a wife chose specifically because it has a policy of somehow always finding that the husband must give a get, regardless of the circumstances.

      The agunah phenomenon only exists when a [many times] self-proclaimed “frum” husband either refuses to go before a Beis Din or defies the rabbonim’s psak to give a get.

      This is a flat-out lie. In most cases the beis din has not paskened that he must give a get, but she demands one anyway.

    • Kop Mentch

      Milhouse screams liar while lying! “This is a flat-out lie. In most cases the beis din has not paskened that he must give a get”

      I don’t suppose the Batei Dinim give out those pesky seruvim just for fun. The seruv is given “when a [many times] self-proclaimed “frum” husband either refuses to go before a Beis Din or defies the rabbonim’s psak to give a get.”

      So where exactly is the “flat-out lie”, liar!

    • YMSP

      Lol, “Kop Mentch” (a misnomer if ever there were), even the “Jewish Press” stopped publishing the “seruv” list after it was found that the YU’s “Beth Din of America,” which used 90% of the seruvim was publishing false (unwarranted) seruvim against husbands who complied with other Batei Din, those who wanted other Batei Din (vholchin achar hanitvo) or who were not able to attend Batei Din due to falsely obtained injunctions of protection taken out by the wife. There’s also a din of ein nizkonin lo/lah (look that one up and see if one can adjudicate under two separate court systems and what Beis Din is supposed to do) and a psak from B”D Kedushas Levi that any rov ignoring that halacha is not a chaver Bais Din, is a mumar and his bishul is bishul akum like anyone who denies clear halachos. Rav Elyashiv simply stated, less severely that they have forfeited a claim to being a Bais Din if they ignore hilchos gittin.
      In other cases they issued false seruvim against men who wanted to save their marriages and insisted on postpartum evaluations before any decision on a get. Sometimes you can judge people by their enemies.

      Btw, BMG is run by Malkiel Kotler. You correctly mention that he received a very controversial heter meah rabbonim (yet demands that others give gittin on demand, especially to his cousin, without quoting halacha). You fail to mention what he tried to do to Lubavitch with a “kinus for klal yisroel” re internet use until the Satmar Rebbe stopped him. You also fail to mention what his grandfather did with money given to him to transfer to the Lubavitcher Yeshiva in Shanghai (which resulted in the starvation of bochurim R”L). Above I pointed out your obvious ivus hadin. Now I’m sad/glad/sad to point out where it comes from.

      “Kop Mentch,” come over to the light side.

    • Kop Mentch

      You knock YU and Modern Orthodoxy.If it is their shitos in hashkafa – we are on the same page, as is most of the Yeshivish world, but their Rabbonim are World Class Lamdonim.

      I was told that even the Lubavitcher Rebbe had the GREATEST respect for The Rav (R’ JB Soloveitchik), who by the way, was GREAT ENOUGH to openly argue on Shulchn Oruch and Poskim, in a calibre similar to the GRAH!

      The Rabbonim of YU are world class, and it doesn’t take away from their gadlus if they have a beard or not, what kind of yarmulka they wear (black or knitted) or if they wear a black hat or not.

      As far a Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel that take an opposing view on gittin from YU – there was always a historic difference in Halacha views between Gedolim of EY and Chutz. The poskim in EY often disagreed with Reb Moshe, but we followed him because he was our possek!

      Think of Talmud Bavli and Yerushalmi as the “start” and continue down the generations.I note that when there is a dispute between the two, the halacha is like the Bavli, v’dal!

    • YMSP

      Kop Mentch,

      a) The Rebbe would always make sure to treat people with the utmost respect. It wasn’t indicative of acceptance of any of their views. The Rebbe was mechavev Israeli Pres. Shazar in a far greater way than he showed kiriuvim to JB. Shazar had also been a yeshiva student and probably a successful one. No one mistook those kiruvim for agreement with any of Shazar’s views.

      b) Glad you’re on the same page re shitos of “modern-orthodoxy.” Unfortunately the aguna campaign has little (nothing) to do with halacha and everything about shitos.

      c) …Malach Hashem Tzevakos yevakesh Torah mipihu – We learn from those who emulate Hashem, not from those with farkumter shitos, shitos that you agree are farkrumt (crooked and wrong).

      d) Is there any moral human being who can support what their leading voice said (aside from his insane musings against Olmert and Netanyahu, may Hashem protect both from such people – and I don’t agree with them either, I just don’t like bullies like Schachter threatening their lives). http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/10/guest-post-daas-torah-has-previously.html.

      e) If he’s so proud of his statements on the above link, why did YU take them down after Epstein was arrested? Did that event too “change Torah and mandate a new ‘temporary’ takano?” (And like I said before, no one’s buying your “temporary” argument. Are you really advocating a temporary change?)

      f) Do you believe in making media wars when the husband demands counseling and a postpartum eval before a get? They do.

      g) You claim to follow Reb Moshe. Good. See what he writes about gitei meuso or when one party went to secular court shelo kedin. Ask Reb Reuven and Reb Dovid what they think. Ask them what their father would think of today’s YU led and incited activism.

    • Kop Mentch

      I am pleased that the Readers can see that there are opposing schools of thought on this issue. There is a Halachic basis for each view – elu v’elu, these and those are Torah views, as any machlokes among poskim.

      Those who adopt the view of HoRav HaGaon Scachter and others, yesh lahem al ma lismoch to free themselves from the blackmail and imprisonment of remaining agunos!

  • Mrs Been There

    That’s Exactly what the term “Aguna” means
    The Husband withholds a “GET”
    If you cant work things out for the sake of the children
    then both parties should get a “RAV” and the two Rabonim should if need be get a Third RAV
    and avoid the Gossip and Bloodshed of the children
    The conclusion would be a amicable agreement even if both sides need to forgive and take a little
    the only people who make money in these cases are the Lawyers.
    WORK THINGS OUT!!!! so there is no AGUNA

    • Milhouse

      That is not what the term agunah means. An agunah is someone whose husband has disappeared, and is unable to give her a get. She may suspect that he’s dead and will never return, but without proof she’s chained. Or the husband is present, but legally unable to give her a get. That is why poskim throughout the ages tried valiantly to find a heter.

    • Kop Mentch

      More of the usual Milhouse lies and misinformation: “That is not what the term agunah means.”

      A half truth is a full lie, Originally Agunah had a limited meaning but already in the Talmudic times the term was expanded to any woman who was chained to an unhealthy or unwelcome relationship.

      A common example was a
      שומרת יבם. She was chained and waiting for the Yovom to give her chalutzah ( a “form” of Get) and was therefore considered an Agunah.

    • YMSP

      Kop Mentch… lol… Kop Mentch….

      Halacha writes clear distinctions between a megaresh min haerusin (and never lived with the man) and megaresh min hanesuin.

      Harchokos of Rabbeinu Tam were for megaresh min haerusin. Even still, most poskim don’t allow them.

      It should be self evident where a shomeres yavam falls vda”l.

      Actually, this isn’t funny. The complete building of a new Torah is quite sad.

      What’s your real name though? Maybe Shmuley Boteach will be willing to write a book about you and your new Torah.

      Sad…

    • Kop Mentch

      YMSP writes lomdus: “Halacha writes clear distinctions between a megaresh min haerusin (and never lived with the man) and megaresh min hanesuin.”

      Save the lomdus for the chaburah. The pilpul doesn’t diminish the unwarranted suffering of fellow yidden.

  • ;-(

    Messy (#2) – your comment is so messed up – I don’t even know where to start except to say that I’m in this situation and none of what you wrote is true – not about me or my “so called” husband, and even if it’s true about some cases – it is CERTAINLY not the usual !!! Safe to say that a comment like yours makes us Agunos cry… Chaval !!!

    • Kop Mentch

      Bals claims without data, statistics or facts. Just because he says it is so, Milhouse wants you to “accept” his word on it: “On the contrary, what “messy” describes is by far the usual case”

      No case is “usual”- each is unique.

      Does Milhouse want us to believe that someone compiled data and keeps tabs on what is the “usual case”?

      This is systemic and typical of Milhouse’s misleading comments!

  • Jewish dude

    If a person refuse to give a get or receive one this person must lose everything. Job,house passport,drivers license. No access to synagogue,or any other frumme yidden also long prison sentence maybe for the rest of his or her life. We must stamp this out now.

    • Milhouse

      Why should a person give a get or accept one, if they don’t want to, and no honest and competent beis din, acting based on solid evidence rather than ideology, has ordered them to do so?

    • Kop Mentch

      Milhouse does not believe in middos tovos and decency: “Why should a person give a get or accept one, if they don’t want to?”

      That is like asking, Why should a person give up a moment of his own time to save another’s life? Why should anyone do ANYTHING for the good of someone else?

      Milhouse, the answer is that people ARE wired to be decent and to do the right thing. Those who aren’t this way are psychopaths.

      Milhouse wonders, Why should a person give a get or accept one, if they don’t want to? Only a psychopath would ask such a question.

    • YMSP

      Yes “Kop Mentch” people who either want to save their marriages or hold out for some custody are “psychopaths.”

      By contrast, those who go running to the NYPost to force gittin in a case they know nothing about or who organize a boycott against Artscroll Publishers (I kid you not, as is known to everyone who follows these cases), are great humanitarians in our times.

      That’s the BMG philosophy for you in a nutshell. And I use the word “nut” and “shell” for a reason.

    • Kop Mentch

      YMSP,do you mock the largest mokom Torah in America (and maybe the world)?! Are you calling thousands of bnei Torah “nuts” or “shells”?! Those that mok bnei Torah eventually reject the Torah itself!

  • Facts about divorce

    It’s about state of Massachusetts, but i would guess New York is not far behind..

    http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2014/01/25/divorce-corp-movie-review/

    ” I start my work by having a private session with the man. I tell him that divorce in Massachusetts is not about creating ex-husbands. It is about creating ex-fathers. As soon as his wife decided to divorce him he became an ex-father and that unless his wife is a prison inmate, a Massachusetts judge will give her sole custody. I tell him that he has a narrow window of opportunity to buy his way back into fatherhood by giving the mother whatever cash she wants. If he can’t pay her off right now in mediation, she’ll be in court next month. She is going to convincingly tell a judge that she is ‘afraid’ for herself and her children. Nobody will care that there was no previous record of domestic violence. The judge will order him out of the house and cut the kids’ time with him back to about a day a week. He will never be able to recover from that first temporary order.”

  • Milhouse

    Ugly Fact: Withholding a Get is a uniquely horrid tool in a husband’s physiological war on his wife during a divorce.

    This is not a fact. This is a propaganda campaign against the Torah. The fact is that, in a normal case, nobody is entitled to a get just because they want one. A Jewish marriage may only be dissolved by mutual consent, and if only one party wants out then the other party may put whatever price they like on their consent. Someone who abandons a marriage without their partner’s consent is a mored/es, and has no rights.

    There are exceptional cases where a situation has developed which no person can be expected to put up with, e.g. where there is abuse. If a husband or wife is being physically assaulted (and remember that domestic violence happens at equal rates in both directions) they must leave at once; Chazal say that “a person cannot live with a snake in the same basket”. But the vast majority of divorce cases are not like this; one person simply wakes up one morning and decides to leave, and the modern dogma is that if it’s the wife then she has every right to do so, and the husband must docilely hand over a get and then take his chances in a court system that does not follow halacha, and is very biased in favor of women. (For some reason this dogma does not seem to work the other way; husbands who choose to abandon their wives are still looked down on, as they should be.)

    The vast majority of so-called “agunos” that we hear about are really mordos, and deserve no sympathy. Let them give their husbands what they want, or return to them.

    (It’s also odd that we hear so much about “agunos”, and hardly anything about the approximately equal number of “agunim”, whose wives refuse to accept a get. True, they have the possibility of a heter meah rabbonim, but that’s not easy to obtain. Most such husbands are stuck. But the same considerations should apply; if the wife wants to remain married, and there was no abuse or other special circumstances that make it impossible for them to stay together, then they should either return to their wives or pay whatever the wife demands.)

    • Kop Mentch

      Lies and misinformation by Milhouse:
      “The fact is that, in a normal case, nobody is entitled to a get just because they want one. A Jewish marriage may only be dissolved by mutual consent”

      Milhouse disagrees with the Rambam, but that is only a minor technical problem!

      רמב”ם (אישות פי”ד ה”כ) כתב כי במקרים בהם אישה מואסת בבעלה ואינה מסכימה להמשיך לקיים עמו חיי נישואין, יש לכפות על בעלה מתן גט באופן מיידי “לפי שאינה כשבויה שתבעל לשנוי (=שנוא) לה”

      In BMG we have a sefer called Shu”t Tzemach Tzedek s. 135 (BTW it was authored by the 3rd Lubavitcher Rebbe so I hope Milhouse repects this source). I will quote the Tzemach Tzedek:

      “שבעצם העניין היושר עמה, שאינה כשבויה שתבעל למי שהוא מאוס לה, והרי כתיב דרכיה דרכי נועם וכו’

      So yes, Milhouse, there actually IS an entitlement to a Get just because she wants one, and she is NOT required to remain imprisoned in the marriage.

    • YMSP

      The Rambam says wait 12 months and don’t give her much during that time.

      The halacha is not like the Rambam and the din is clear that one cannot force a get even after 12 months in the case of a moredes (or in any case not outlined in Shulchan Oruch EH 154).

      The Tzemach Tzedek, unlike the Rambam, is clearly not referring to halacha for someone who already entered into “nisuin”, (as per my post above re erusin, nisuin and the difference in force according to some rishonim) as is obvious even from the line you quote.

      Halacha’s not with you. Sorry.

    • Kop Mentch

      YMSP tries to defend Milhouse by retorting that “The halacha is not like the Rambam” and citing Shulchan Oruch…

      Indeed, the Shulchan Oruch paskens like the Rosh which argues on the Rambam I quoted, but that does not end the halachic issue, because LATER poskim OVERTURN the Shulchan Oruch/Rosh and pasken like the Rambam.

      This isn’t the forum for an in-depth halacha discussion, but I will cite as example: (שו”ת דבר שמואל (סימן כ”ג
      איש אחד עשה תבשיל לאשתו ובו סם המוות וכשהוציאו המרק הושיטה לתוך פיה מעט ומצאה אותו מר כלענה, והוליכה לשכנים לטעום גם הם וכשטעמו כמעט היו בסכנה ונשאר אותו המרק בקערה, ונכנסה תינוקת ונתנה בו חתיכות פת ואכלה ומתה, מה יהיה משפט האיש ומעשהו, כי אחר כך הודה לפני ב’ עדים שהוא עשה סם המוות לאשתו.
      וזה מה שכתבו קצת מחכמי ורבני פאס יגן עליה אלוקים להשיב על זה, וזו לשונם:
      ‘ראינו את המעשה הרע הזה שעשה האיש הנזכר ומה שנראה לעניות דעתנו הוא שהאיש הזה כופין אותו לגרש ויוציא ויתן כתובה… והוא מנודה לשמים ולבריות, ופתו פת גויים

      Point is, SHulchan Oruch is not the final halachic word on this.

  • Very sad

    I had to pay a tremendous amound of money cash only in order to get my get
    That’s abuse!

    • Milhouse

      What was abusive about it? You wanted to leave the marriage, your partner didn’t, so you had to make concessions to get his or her consent. Why do you think you were entitled to break the marriage unilaterally and not pay anything?

    • Milhouse I am surprised at you!

      Usually I agree with your common sense, but you obviously missed taking your vitamins today. Withholding a Get from a woman IS abuse. Blackmailing her to give one IS abuse. I can only imagine you are a) divorced yourself & are justifying your POV or b) you have zero experience in this.

      You may be right halachically in some points. But when a husband says I will give a Get when you fork over $100,000 AND the house, there is something wrong with that. Then you have the Heter Meah Rabbanim – the father of one of my students refused to give a Get to his wife but found 100 morons who signed a paper and he remarried anyway. SHE couldn’t.

      Until you can speak from experience about this (not as someone who actually withholds a Get) don’t start pontificating how it is “reasonable” to pay something to get out of a marriage. We aren’t talking about a penalty to AT & T if you drop your cell phone contract. We are talking about emotional & financial blackmail. And DO NOT foget the children – I have yet to see children of divorce who are completely unscarred by their experiences. And the nastier the divorce is, the worse the scarring.

    • Milhouse

      “Heter”, yes, what do you think it says in the teno’im? I’ve looked over the teno’im very carefully and there is not a single mention of divorce. And no, you are not entitled to a heter meah rabbonim just because you want one. A rov should be very careful when signing such a heter, and should do so only when in the equivalent case he would force the husband to give a get.

      To the surprised person, you can say that withholding a get is abuse as much as you like, but that won’t make it true. Repeating a lie just makes you a liar. And it cheapens actual abuse. There are men and women who are actually being abused by their spouses, physically or psychologically, and when you call something else “abuse” you are hurting them.

      What you don’t understand is that in a normal case nobody is entitled to a get . No, it’s not like a cell phone contract, where you can chose to pay the penalty and cancel the contract. A marriage is a binding contract for life, and you have no right to leave without the other party’s consent. It makes no difference how strongly you want to leave, you simply have no right, unless you get your partner’s consent, so you have to pay whatever it takes. If you think the price is too high, you have an option: stay married!

      There are, of course, exceptions. If one partner is abusing the other, then the victim can’t be expected to stay. A person can’t live in the same basket as a snake. That’s when we have kefiyas get in the case of a man, and heter meah rabbonim in the case of a woman.

      And I don’t know where you get the right to call the 100 rabbonim who signed your student’s father’s heter “morons”. If 100 rabbonim from three different countries sign such a heter, knowing the gravity required, (or if a beis din orders kefiyas get in the case of a man) don’t we own them the presumptoin that they investigated the facts and found that it was justified?

    • Kop Mentch

      Milhouse foolishly asks, “Why do you think you were entitled to break the marriage unilaterally and not pay anything?”

      Well let me speak for her. She is entitled to break the marriage because she agreed to marry a human being but he turned out to be an animal.

      She is entitled to break the marriage because the marriage was already broken by him committing one of the Three A’s: Abuse, Addiction, Adultery.

      She was mislead and fooled but after marriage discovered the truth. She tried to salvage the marriage for a few years, suffering daily, but he broke her spirit. Especially when he stopped taking his meds.

      She paid enough and has the bruises to prove it.

      Milhouse you are a fool!

  • Comment 17

    You are either not married (for good cause) or are someone is withholding a get from his wife. There is no sane married man who holds of a opinions such as yours. (Forget the women)

  • Be honest

    There are letters in Igros that are as clear as daylight where the Rebbe says not to withhold a Get no matter what.

    • YMSP

      Actually there’s letter after letter saying that the main yetzer hora today is that of destroying families, R”L, which is exactly what the get activists do (preventing reconciliation, etc.)

      20 years ago any couple who went for a get were asked if they tried counseling and this was often insisted upon as a prerequisite. Now a man who insists on same, or, in the case of a pregnancy, insists on a competent postpartum evaluation, which is often the main cause of separation and of the woman going to the get crazies, er, activists, in the first place (look up the symptoms vda”l) now finds himself at the receiving end of the attacks of activist loons.

      And misguided ignorant people think that that is Judaism. There is no greater Chilul Hashem.

    • Kop Mentch

      Milhouse makes the comment “cite sources” to give impression that there are no such sources.

      This is how he misleads, with half truths and misinformation!

      I will cite one Lubavitch source “as an example”:
      ספרי כ”ק אדמו”ר ה”צמח צדק” > שו”ת > אבן העזר > סימן קלה > א
      שבעצם הענין היושר עמה שאינה כשבויה” שתבעל למי שהוא מאוס לה והרי כתיב דרכיה דרכי נועם כו’

    • YMSP

      KM,

      You’re quoting the Tzemach Tzedek on someone who has not entered nisuin and you’re calling Milhouse a liar?

      Above you write that in the case of the woman who wants a get the man must have been an “animal, abuser or addict” and she tried to save it for years and has “the bruises to prove it.” Does one really need to respond to how insane that proposition is?

    • YMSP

      “Kop” Mentch..

      (Actually to everyone else to show how much he and probably his Kollel dishonestly twist sources)

      To be clear, the teshuvo of the Tzemach Tzedek for EH 145 involves a man who was 1) shmad R”L – gave up his religion 2) wanted to give a get after 12 years of not giving one 3) had kosher witnesses at the writing (who were even able to identify a mark on his hand) and 4) sent it by post – which was a problem.

      The Tzemach Tzedek goes through pages of hilchos noshim, including discussions that bring in cases of shomeres yavam and is considered with the eidei chasimo and concludes that sending through a non-Jew by post., which was a new way, may be problematic but asks the shoel how he thinks. He didn’t receive your memo that one can throw out all dinei Torah for an aguna, and this was a real aguna, not a moredes..

      After that theres a response that follows the teshuva that this whole situation with using the post carriers and all other factors are “sticking one’s head between mountains.”

      If you’ll show the page and line of the exact quote, which of itself shows that it’s not talking about someone who completed nisuin (talks about not forcing her to enter nisuin and fits with the klal used for harchokos, which are specifically for rotza legaresh min haeirusin – and lhalocho we don’t use them), I’ll address that line specifically. I’m not going to search through 5 pages in which every line is filled with new svoros just to debunk a half-literate whose sole intent is to mislead.

    • Kop Mentch

      YMSP, get your story straight. First you defended Milhouse by claiming that I quoted: “the Tzemach Tzedek on someone who has not entered nisuin”

      Then you actually opened the Tzemach Tzedek and realized that I was right, so you try to distinguish that the T.Z.: “involves a man who was 1) shmad R”L – gave up his religion 2) wanted to give a get after 12 years of not giving one etc.”

      After 12 years of marriage, do you consider he never entered nissuin?! More so, it was in the times of the Talmud that there was a break between Kiddushin and Nissuin, but that custom was extinct in times of Tzemach Tzedek!

      But here is the “kicker”: You accuse “me and probably my Kollel of dishonestly twisting sources (these are your words), while it is YOU who do that!

      Anyone reading your two posts can see the dishonesty!

    • YMSP

      KM,

      Glad you’re showing everyone to what lengths you go to spin.

      Or maybe you didn’t read my post but jump to twist it anyway.

      1) The Tzemach Tzedek is dealing with a case that bears no resemblance to anything today. And the man wanted to write a get.

      2) In this teshuvo he’s mefarek harim and talks about mesarev yavam, etc. – i.e. all kinds of cases.

      3) The line you quoted does not refer to megaresh min hanesuin, as is clear from the line itself.

      The amount of energy needed to answer this nonsense… As one of the emotionally charged get getters on this thread wrote, “chaval.”

    • Milhouse

      How about so many women not accepting gittin? The numbers are about the same. But more importantly, why do you think mentchlickeit demands agreeing to the breakup of a marriage that one wants to save?

    • Kop Mentch

      Misleading info ALERT! Milhouse claims: “so many women not accepting gittin? The numbers are about the same.”

      What do you base this conclusion on – the number of beans in the cholent or the gas they caused?

      Please! Give us a break! Don’t create facts to suit your beliefs!

    • YMSP

      KM.

      According to your precious rav mitam “rabbanut,” the numbers in Israel are about the same. Of course, takonas Rabbeinu Gershom specifically gave the woman that right (and midOraisa the man has that right) and both should really only use it to try to save a marriage. But just saying…

  • To all of you!

    For anyone getting engaged/married:
    SERIOUSLY, consider a halachic pre-nup. Then such issues will stop arising, and hopefully the agunot will have less issues.

    To Millhouse: you say that you if one doesn’t want to stay in a marriage and the other doesn’t – they should stay married. Are you kidding me? If there are children involved, it is better for them to be in a home of a single parent than a home filled with strife and fire with both parents. As for the spouses, if one doesn’t want to be in the marriage, they most likely don’t wat to reconcile their differences and will make no effort, that home will not have shalom bayis, so what is the point to withholding a get? To use it as revenge? Well, then that person is not acting like a ben torah.

    • YMSP

      Why is it that the invalid prenup is only popular in the modern orthodox community? Because they cause serious halachic shailos on any get. The laws of gittin are like mountains hanging on hairs and any pressure, much more so the loss of livelihood, can invalidate a get. Gittin tied to monetary fines are usually invalid. If you don’t want to look up clear Shulchan Oruch before posting on the subject, here’s something in English for you
      http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/getart1.html

      Hopefully people will take halachic advice from real rabbonim/poskim, not modern orthodox activists or internet posters. The immorality of gittin on demand and how gittin without counseling threatens the foundation of marriage is a separate topic.

  • Fact Sheet!

    Fact: In most divorce cases in Chabad it is usually the woman that goes around badmouthing the husband!

    Fact: In most divorce cases in Chabad, it is usually the woman’s family that goes around spreading rumors about the husbands family!

    Fact: In most divorce cases in Chabad, it is usually the woman that had an abusive childhood in one way or another.

    Fact: Most divorce cases in Chabad are championed by unscrupulous Rabbanim that NEVER bother to try to make peace between the parties but rather take a one sided position with out ever talking or discussing the matter with the other side before they form an opinion.

    Fact: Most Rabbanim in Chabad almost always encourage the woman – especially when there are children involved – to file for “protection” against the husband for themselves AND the children.

    Fact: Most courts almost always grant these requests so as to err on the side of “caution” and grant these protection rulings without EVER hearing out the husband first.

    Fact: From this point on, it is always an uphill battle and and an expensive one at that for the husband to have this “protection” quashed.

    Fact: It is almost always that the woman involves the children in her crusade against their father, thus forcing them them to take a side, and who do you think usually prevails? The woman that has a “protection order” against any contact with between the father and the children, or, the father that has now no contact with his children, because (and the children know this) The Rabbanim have advised the mother to do so and the courts agreed?

    Fact: almost always the woman keeps on sucking from the husband anything and everything and at any cost and all under the guise of “helpless victim”.

    At the end of the day it is, yes, the Rabbanim that are at fault for the mess in most of these cases.

    I would suggest the following points to just maybe help alleviate this tragedy and disease called “agunah”.

    1. No Rov should ever give advice in the his capacity as Rov without having BOTH sides present.

    2. Each side must be made clear, that if any side ever goes to secular court as a “tool” against the other side without a clear written Pesak from a Rov that has been involved with BOTH sides, that no Beis Din will cause to be issued any Get or Siruv on behalf of the party that went to the courts.

    Is the woman always at fault? of course not! But as a rule it is usually the woman and cohorts that take a difficult situation and make it impossible.

    Do you know of any exceptions to the above premise? I am sure you do, and I do as well. However, I am stating facts that occur as a rule.

    I myself have been involved unfortunately in too many cases of spousal machlokes and divorce, and I can say that as rule I NEVER listened to ANY side first without having the other side present (as difficult as it may be to facilitate), and Boruch Hashem, EACH AND EVERY situation has has concluded in reconciliation!!! And do you know who were the biggest winners? The children!, and do you know who is forever thankful for that? Yes, the Parents!

    Obviously, there is no such thing as one size fits all, and each and every case in unique and different, but the underlying approach to success is the same for all.
    ה’ עוז לעמו יתן, ה’ יברך את עמו בשלום

    • success rate

      You sound like you have a lot of experience in saving marriages. Wouldn’t it be appropriate (even if it requires Mesiras Nefesh) to publicize your name so that those who are considering divorce will be able to consult with you and save their marriages? You can ignore any negative comments, that would pop up, bec. you have the tools and experience to save marriages

    • what a biased load of BS

      Do you have specific, irrefutable, incontrovertial statistics & documentation to bact up this fiction you clearly have as your personal agenda? No? Then stop saying FACTS. Try saying this is what happened to me (probably deservedly, based on the garbage you write.)

      PS “Fact: In most divorce cases in Chabad, it is usually the woman that had an abusive childhood in one way or another.” Do you really believe this? If so, I pity you, I really do.

  • both ways

    you think its only the guy? let me tell you a woman can refuse a get and make it just as hard to get one by doing so. Since it seems to be the majority of men who make problems or are the cause of said problems, people tend to generalize. However I know 2 people going through a divorce and in one case the woman is the cause of the problems, and the other its the woman who is withholding the Get process. so it works both ways. neither side should withhold and further and especially if their kids both sides should be FAIR and do it as amicably as possible. if your spitting then let go and move on.

    • Milhouse

      Since it seems to be the majority of men who make problems or are the cause of said problems,

      This is not true. Most marriage breakups are initiated by the wife, and the numbers of get refusers are about equal.

  • Shliach who withholds Get....

    If he is a shliach, he should be banned from the kinus, and banned from farbrenging or lecturing at yeshivas and mesivtas eg Oholei Torah.

    Just like the great-grandson of Reb Moshe Feinstein z”l was forced to give a Get, similarly public protests through Facebook and Social media should put pressure on the entire family.

  • Women need to get involved....

    A good idea would be that the women of the community that has an Aguna, they all tell their husbands that they will NOT be going to the Mikva until the Aguna receives a Get! Women need to come together and support each other! The men will make sure that the man gives a get pronto!

    • To #36

      Let me see if I understand you. You’re saying that all the woman of the community that has an agunah problem, should refuse until their husbands fix said agunah problem. Is that what you’re saying? Do I really have to iterate what a terrible idea this is. Please tell me you’re joking.

  • wondering ...

    Why would someone want to stay married to someone who no longer want to be married to them?

  • Yossi

    This issue will never be resolved until we can figure out how to make a halachic pre nup and make it mandatory.

  • To MILHOUSE

    I am in shock that there are comments here attacking the oped, as if this issue isn’t a very real one. Such comments are part of the problem. You’re obviously a narrow minded Crown Heightser bent on ignoring the agunah situation. Your comments are all based on the premise that women can not have any reason, other than abuse, to break up a marriage. Allow me to educate you: people get divorced for many reasons, not only in extreme circumstances, and if a woman wants a divorce, you can assume that she has a very valid reason for doing so, even if it is not one of your so called justified reasons. Stop trying to discredit evreything the author is claiming. The author is obviously writing from experience, something you obviously lack. Take your narrow minded views elsewhere. But then again, this is crownheights.info and under the cloak of anonymity you’re thoroughly enjoying yourself. Quite frankly, I’m sick of reading your comments on this site.

    • Milhouse

      The Torah disagrees with you. A woman is not entitled to a get just because she wants one. It doesn’t matter how good she thinks her reason is. It’s not up to her. If I demand that you give me $1000 as a gift, do you have to give it to me?! Of course not. So why should a man give his wife a get just because she wants it?

      And since Rabbenu Gershom the same is true for a man. The Torah permitted him to give his wife a get any time he felt like it, but Rabbenu Gershom forbade it, so now the sexes are equal. Neither one can get out of a marriage without the other one’s consent (with a few exceptions).

    • To MILHOUSE

      That’s not a very good analogy. Demanding a get is NOT the same thing as demanding a gift. A get is not a gift. A get is something a woman who wants to leave a marriage (who has very valid reasons for doing so) is entitled to. Yes, she is entitled to a get, and any man that refuses and holds his wife hostage (as an agunah) is a disgusting pig.
      FYI: Israel has very strict laws to protect agunot: if a man was ordered by a beit din to give a get to his wife and he refuses, he may be imprisoned until he complies. So all this nonsense about women not being entitled to a get, would not even be accepted in Israel.

  • Anonymous

    Oh my goodness, I cannot believe what I’m reading in the comments here!!! I am shocked and disheartened by these lies.

    “There is no reason to have faith in a so-called “beis din” that a wife chose specifically because it has a policy of somehow always finding that the husband must give a get, regardless of the circumstances.”
    Are you actually saying that a wife or husband who wants out has no right to ask for a divorce? Is this the middle east where one party holds the other party hostage against their will. Marriage isn’t ownership, it’s an arrangement of mutual consent. A husband who refuses to ‘allow’ his wife to leave the marriage is guilty of rape.

    “domestic violence happens at equal rates in both directions”
    where does this false statistic come from? Women can be emotionally and verbally abusive, noone disputes that, but domestic violence constitutes physical abuse and that is only exclusively at the hands of men. Any study done at any time in history would confirm this by such a large margin that there is no room for error. (The only exception is in F to F relationships, where domestic abuse rates are high between the women.)

    “You wanted to leave the marriage, your partner didn’t, so you had to make concessions to get his or her consent.”
    This is plain and simple extortion! How can any decent person insist that their unwilling partner remain in an unhappy marriage?

    “The vast majority of so-called “agunos” that we hear about are really mordos, and deserve no sympathy. Let them give their husbands what they want, or return to them.”
    This is the cruelest statement yet. Your logic is based on the male ownership and dominion of his wife, where she either obeys or buys him out. That is not a Torah based marriage. That is indentured servitude. Besides, knowing very few cases of manipulative and deceptive women who claim aguna while they are the ones stalling the process, compared to the thousands of women who just want out of a terrible marriage and cannot secure their freedom because of the husband’s refusal to cooperate- claiming these agunos are mordos and deserve no sympathy is a horrible, horrible thing to say. Shame on you.

    • Yehudis

      Thank you for writing this. I had neither the time or patience to respond to such stupid comments. But I’m happy you did. :-)

    • Dear Anonymous,

      Why don’t you take your educated legal writing to address your “F to F relationship” agguna problems.

      Your raging symathization for poor-woman is probably an outlet for your deep seated anger. I teach my kids to watch out from womens-rights-freaks such as like you.

    • Milhouse

      Every single study of domestic violence over the past 40 years has found that men and women commit it in equal numbers.

      And yes, marriage is a kinyan. It is entered into by mutual consent; it does not require mutual consent to continue.

      A woman who wants out of a marriage without a compelling reason is a moredes. That is what the Torah calls her. She is rebelling against her husband.

  • To the author

    I absolutely agree with you, and this piece is well written (which is something quite unusual here). I only wish you’d posted this with your name.

  • CH'er

    “””””””Since the Rebbe’s passing there have been many divorces in the Chabad community. Each in its own way a tragedy, but such is life. On the whole divorce is a very private and painful experience for all involved, and the public should respect the privacy of those involved and not gossip or mix in.””””””

    wish the public will indeed respect and honor someones dignity,,,, I have seen so many times, when gossip can destroy a man, as many hear things from her, that most times are false or exaggerated, causing shame insult and damage to a mans character, at times causing a man to stop going to shul etc,, how sad,

    • I too have seen the damage..

      Yes , it would be wonderful if people didn’t take sides and didn’t spread loshon harah and make up lies and damage whole families with their destructive words.
      Unfortunately, everyone is in everyone elses business and makes comments about things they know nothing about.
      Sad to say that the words of one person can manage to spread and damage several generations of just one family and continue to spread years down the road .
      Yet their are others that find a perverse enjoyment in recounting the so called details of a broken marriage going so far as to make a party for one side of the sad couple.
      Divorce is horrible thing.
      Not something to celebrate, no matter what the details are.
      It’s a sad state when two people who once came together in joy bringing their two separate families together to make a new one. This is not a reason to rejoice and spread destructive tales, nor take sides or cast blame. Both are suffering and those with children it is a much harder suffering tinged with a daily bitterness that will leave the couples children forever scarred . No matter how much the parents work to keep it civil . A broken home is a broken home.
      There are times a divorce is rachmones -necessary, especially when abuse is involved. It takes a toll all those who are receiving it and witnessing the abuse that shouldn’t be allowed for any reason.
      It seems that the community has done a turn around – many years ago the rabbis and leaders and community members were willing to turn a blind eye to abuse and warned the families not to get involved, they didn’t offer any support or practical advice and when it came down to it they were willing to turn a blind eye especially if it was someone with protectcia.
      Allowing a man or woman to hold a get over the other spouses head or large payments as blackmail is wrong ethically and morally. And sitting by and not saying anything is just as wrong .
      Leaders and Rabbanim need to address this issue and find a way to end the Abuse of a get .

  • I went to "collage"

    So long as women cant be a part of a Minayan

    our Old Fashiond shtetyl mentality will refuse women of their rights.

    HaShem made women for a reason!!!! and its Dina DImalChusa Dina!!!

    What gives a husband a right to be so avusive and so openly!!!!!!!!!

    Women don’t do ANYTHING to their husbands!!! Not even in places where nobody else sees!!!!

    • Milhouse

      Hashem is the one who said women can’t be part of a minyan. And Hashem is the one who said that a man is mekadesh a woman, not the other way around, and only the man can undo those kidushin, and only by his free will. Hashem is the one who gave husbands the right to refuse a get, except in some very limited cases. So your problem is with Hashem.

      And what do you imagine dina demalchusa has to do with this?

  • Covert Sly Woman Poses as poor "agguna"

    One husband I know cant write a get if he wanted to – the woman used her law education to press charges and have her husband imprisoned.

    She wasn’t looking to remarry, but simply wanted her independence and power back. She regrets choosing the Orthodox way of life. But now its too late since she has kids.

    So the lawyer women did it smart: first she got a restraint order on her husband over some argument they had. What could he do – all he knew was how to install carpets for a living – she was the one to know how the legal bureaucracy works.

    Next she spread flower at the door of their house to provide evidence that her husband was violating the parole restraint she put on him. So now the lawyer got the husband to serve jail time.

    After filling her young children with a hate toward their own father, next she ran around to all the Women’s Rights groups raising hell that her husband is being abusive to her and causing her to be a poor innocent “agguna”

    Poor woman!

  • OVY VAY!!!

    DID YOU HEAR!!!!! A HUSBAND REFUSED TO GIVE HIS WIFE A GET!!!!! OY VEY IS MIR!!!!!! OY WE SHOULD CALL A TAANIS TZIBBUR!!!! QUICK, EVERYBODY CALL YOUR LOCAL CONGRASS MAN AND CALL THE AGUNA CRISIS TEAM!!! WHERE ARE THE COW PRODERS!!!! THIS IS THE WORST THING THAT HAPPEND SINCE THE ABBUSE OF CHILDREN!!!!!! OY VAY SAFFTY!!! SAFETY FIRST!!!!

  • Tazer Him!!

    Maybe we should punish him? like, give him a FINE for EACH DAY he refuses to hand over the get!!!! its not even his property!!!

  • Shocking

    Agree 100% with this op-ed. Why so many commentators are describing the opposite scenario is disturbing. Yes, I am sure that there are situations where women refuse to cooperate in a get situation, but the fact is that the Halacha is typically not in her favor, so it is much easier for a man to use this a tool to maintain power in the relationship. (As sad or not understandable as it sounds, it is common for two divorcing parties to continue to engage in an unhealthy power relationship.) Mr. Millhouse – it seems as though you have some particular agenda here. Why else are you commenting on everyonés comments, to push a particular point of view? Your experience is not the same as others, and even if there are only two Shluchim or even one who has ever behaved in this way, it should be sufficient for this to be of concern to the Chabad community and must be addressed.

    • Milhouse

      My only agenda is the truth and the Torah. I stand up for the Torah’s point of view because nobody else seems willing to do so. There have been some shocking comments on this thread, from people who openly defy Hashem’s law, and think they known better than Him ch”v.

      I have no dog in this fight; I stand for strict equality between men and women, since Rabbenu Gershom made them equal in this regard.

      The fact is that the Israeli rabbanut has statistics on get refusers, and these consistently show that it’s about equal.

  • A few points:

    One really has no idea what goes on behind closed doors. It is definitely not the Rabbanim telling a woman to get an order of protection. If G-d forbid it is a case of domestic violence the Rav should do everything to protect the woman and children involved. Sadly, many Rabbanim are not educated about abuse and unfortunately are waiting for a life to G-d forbid be taken until they wake up.
    It is not so simple to get an order. Even with an order the father has visitation rights and can see his children as often as he wishes. Amazing how people will say all that they do, about a woman who finally protects herself and children by getting an order. Would the same outcry exist if a child ended up in the hospital during visitation? Then, everyone would suddenly start saying -she knew what went on in the marriage, why didn’t she protect her kids!!
    People stop judging and making it sound like women just get orders to keep the kids away from their fathers. You have no idea what went on behind closed doors! Withholding a get is never okay and woman who abuses the system and get an order to keep away the kids are hurting it for those who really need protection. Yes, a woman who refuses to accept a get is also wrong. Many times when a man withholds a get, it is a clear sign that they were in fact abusive.

    • Milhouse

      Abuse happens equally in both directions. And it is very easy to get an order of protection, far too easy. Judges give them out without any evidence, because just in case the claims are true they don’t want to be responsible if something happens ch”v. That’s understandable, but it’s not just.

    • YMSP

      Unfortunately you don’t know about what passes for batei din or “rabbonim” today (not just talking about gittin here, the same is true of momenus). The mazkir of the leading “Modern Orthodox” (which should be called “Greek Orthodox,” but that’s for another day) so-called “Beth Din” is under investigation for telling a wife to hold a false charge in order to exact a get (which would be posul btw). They often give such advice. I’d hope that no frum rabbi would stoop that low but all the guys in the insane Epstein case were frum. It’s insane, it causes invalid gittin and those who don’t have a clue about these issues or about today’s “batei din” shouldn’t suppose. The good news is that based on that and Meseches Sanhedrin, we’re definitely close to the geulah…..

  • To Millhouse

    While I disagree with much of what you wrote I do think that your view in specific cases is actually not different from the view expressed in the OpEd

    “Chazal say that “a person cannot live with a snake in the same basket”. But the vast majority of divorce cases are not like this”

    If either of the spouses feel (and competent Rabbonim agree) that the other spouses behavior warrants divorce then a GET must be given.

    The time has definitely come for the heads of AGUCH, the heads of Merkoz and the heads of TZACH to CLEARLY issue a policy that clearly states that any and every Shliach – or any person working in an official Chabad capacity – who withholds a Get will be removed from their position, and only after the Get is given will they consider whether to reinstate him.

  • Simple Solution

    Situations like these is why the Halachic pre-nip exists. It prevents either spouse from withholding a get. For some reason, it has yet to be widely accepted in Chabad, but maybe it should be…

  • SHOLOM

    Just to toss in another perspective.

    Each and every case of divorce is VERY different. You cannot generalize and make universal ‘policies’.

    There are some (very sad) cases, where a woman in a sour marriage goes to secular court, wins a hefty judgment against her husband, compels him – with the full weight of secular law (and the consequences of not fully obliging).

    Then, AFTER throwing him out of his house, taking a very large portion of his income – forever – from him, she remembers that there is a Torah, and she needs a halachic get in order to move on with her life.

    In some EXTREME cases, this may be the ONLY venue where the husband has ANY leverage. (it’s well known that if ‘family court’, the wife always wins…). He may say, if you want to go the Jewish route, than let’s have halacha rule on ALL the matters between them. Don’t go to secular court when it suites you (because you can make more money than the Torah would say you are entitled to) and then demand adherence to Halacha…

    Just food for thought. Again, this is relevant only in extreme, very sad cases. (not every person who wants a Get and doesn’t get it is an Aguna. If she is abusing him – with the help of court – she may not be a agunah,. she should submit totally to Torah and Halacha.

  • whoa!

    There seem to be a lot of disgruntled ex-husbands on this thread. We all know that most cases of get withholding are because the husband has “issues” which obviously caused problems in the marriage in the first place.

  • To #47

    What kind of crazy idea is that??
    You think that by not going to the Mikva you will force your husband to take your side?
    All you will do is drive a wedge between him and you, and encourage him to seek an answer elsewhere.

  • I feel like crying

    I feel like crying. I am a young teenage girl living on shlichus out of town. I enjoy looking on crownheights.info, lubavitch.com… to find out what is happening in the Lubavitch community in Crown Heights and around the world. Often i enjoy the articles; I hear about mazel tovs, simchas, concerts, and new shluchim etc. But lately I find it so sad, frustrating and dissapointing at the hatred that some people express towards each other on these websites. I know that these websites thrive on machlokes and it is good business with all of these controversial articles, but why cant it be done with the desire to learn the right way and state your opinion, instead of blaspheming and spouting loshon hara about rabbanim and regular Jewish people??? Why cant we have a nice website for people to nicely state their opinions and thoughts? I love checking out these websites, but often i feel that how can we expect non-Lubavitchers to respect and not dislike/chvsh hate us, if this is how everyone talks to each other???

    Yes, this aguna and the male version for all of you “maleists” (male form of feminist?) problem is horribly sad. But does it help anyone if we blame each other. None of us normal people want teh problem, and we all have the same goal of eliminating these types of issues, so why cant it be done in peace and with ahavas yisrael?

    Please, when you write your next comment on any (Lubavitch) websites, think first of how it will impact and affect everyone else, after all, we all want this world to be a better place.

    (Disclaimer: I know that my grammar is not perfect, we dont need another argument about whether we should spell correctly or with shorthand on these forums or not.)

    Thank you for reading this much to tthe end of my long venting comment,
    a proud and frustrated 15 year old shlucha from California.

  • To MILHOUSE

    You are clearly a misogynist! I find the way you talk about women highly offensive, as you imply that women are flimsy and not thinking when they decide they want a divorce. If a women wants a divorce, you can trust that she has a very valid reason for doing so, and just because her husband doesn’t agree to the divorce, it does NOT mean that the woman doesn’t know what she is doing and therefore needs a man to make sure she is making the right decision. This notion that a woman wakes up one morning and just decides to leave a marriage is offensive and misogynistic. A woman has every right to get a divorce if that is what she wants, and she should not be forced to stay in a marriage that she does not want to be in.

    • YMSP

      The Torah made it hard for people to divorce and mandates (since Rabbeinu Gershom) that both parties agree to it for it to happen.

      Your problem’s not with Milhouse, it’s with Daas Torah. Torah gives equality (and protects the value of marriage). It’s you who seems to want to give the ability to cause the destruction of divorce (what you would refer to as “the upper hand” and I’d call “insanity”) to one gender alone.

      Daas Torah isn’t “misogynistic.” It values marriage. It used to be that everyone with a brain in their head understood the consequences of divorce, mostly on the woman btw, and would shudder at the thought of “divorce on demand.”

      But what do we need such an outdated stuff as “brains” today?

    • בוחר'ל

      “A women has every right to get a divorce”

      except one right

      The right of the Torah is not up to her.

  • Who said this is Chabad?

    This auther keeps saying “The Chabad Commnutity”

    She made a mistake,

    This is a Crown Heights community,

    which includes many other type of people beside chabad. There are black people, white people, and even chinese people here on the crown heights community, so if your intention is to bring womens rights issues to the “chabad community”, you really should take your issue elsewhere, perhaps chabad,org or something like that

  • בחור'ל

    So many facts, not a single source. No wonder the anonymity.

    I like the threatening tone at the end.

  • TO FACT SHEET 78#

    I don’t know what time period you are talking about,
    but I do know for a fact that when a sibling of mine was getting beaten up on a regular basis – especially when she was pregnant, my family did not discuss it or go around gossiping about it. They asked “rabbanim in and out of community for help for the couple especially him, he had a horrible temper and was easily enraged and an ego to match , he was a real danger to his wife and unborn child, and anyone nearest to her. No matter how violent he became the rabbanim insisted that she go back to him. And that’s a fact. The family went along with it in order to keep the couple together and keep shalom bayis,. Today I would never keep quiet and go along with their advice , the first time someone picks up their hands to another in abuse , its a start and it doesn’t stop.
    The insane thing about it was that my family was blamed for it , not his abuse. Plenty of people saw his insane anger and rage and still insisted that he was not the problem. I say anyone who encourages and supports such abuse deserves an in law just like that. You can’t change people that have rage and abuse issues . You either sit quiet and take the abuse and possibly end up cv’ in a bad position or worse c’v or you get a restraining order and start a new life.
    Your life and your children lives are certainly worth it. Listening to people tell you not to go to the police and get help is wrong, letting them try to convince you to go back to an abuser isn’t right , its wrong and its bullying.
    Do the right thing.