94 Comments

• Sara

  who is the writer?
  Great article!

• so

  some people are not all on your level , They will get there one day if they feel it. not everyone feels it yet if you know what I am referring to

• Mendy

  What’s the point of you writing this? If it’s for practicing your writing skills then very nice; your a talented writer. However, if if it’s for something else, then I’m lost. Is anyone arguing with what you write? so why bring it up.

  Oh, one more point. There are always going to be people who will tell you that your doing something wrong, especially in this community, therefore, you will always get a mixed response.

• Seriously

  To the editors:
  First off let me commend you for running website that adheres to the level and standards befitting a Chabad website.
  That being said, I was a little surprised at the choice of the illustration photo.
  Couldn’t you have used a picture showing faces of people as opposed to someones backside?

• mordechai

  Tznius is not only dress code, but a way of life.
  The colour red, can be very Tzniusdik, but Ossur according to Shulchan Oruch. A clothe when worn that screams out “I’m here” is not Tzniusdik, no matter what it covers or not. A happy person is someone who is content with themselves, no matter what they dress. Someone who is at peace with themselves, does not need clothes to make him/her happy, to feel a self worth.

• totally get this

  Mendy, you are simply missing the point

• Nobody

  All true. However, in Judaism there is also a respect for tradition – and this has good reasons. When you blaze your own path, you risk stepping over a line.

  However, it is also unfortunately true that for some it is conformity to public behavior and not Torah which motivates their behavior. That is why they have a hard time distinguishing.

  Just be careful about this line: “plainness and sometimes, sadly, dowdiness.” That is the opening of the Yetzer Hara to reject good midos you see in others. They are plain, they are dowdy, they are old fashioned, they follow Torah, Torah is …

• Andrea Schonberger

  This was a great article. A lady can be fashionable and unique and still be tznius–many vintage dresses are quite modest. Likewise, you can wear cosmetics and jewelry to enhance your features without looking like a circus clown loaded with bling. It’s true that looks aren’t everything but along with middot they can produce a person with a well-rounded personality and pleasant looks. Everyone should feel good about themselves and dowdiness doesn’t always equal tznius–believe me, I’ve seen people dressed with very little clothing or underwear on and they are very frumpy looking.

• Dvorah

  We all know when we are dressed properly, wholesomly, as we should. I find it helpful when in doubt to ask myself: would you go to the Rebbe dressed like this? That settles it for me. Try it, you might find it helpful in deciding what is proper, and what needs to be avoided. It is definitely possible to be well dressed, as these days there is a wide range of fashionable clothes available. It is up to us to discern what feels right, and also complies with our standards of tznius. May we all soon greet Moshiach tzidkeinu, proudly knowing we represent what we have been taught to be – Bnos Chabad, Bnos Rabbeinu!

• No.10

  No.5 is correct and to the point!

• trapped

  i personally feel trapped if i wear tights that’s just my thing i feel claustrophobic it has nothing to do with morals or standards

• finaly someone let it out

  this is so true and i hold the same way for men. Im a man and im havin a it harder then you cuz for men its only black and white and black and white is not good unless you wearing a hat and jaket with it

• fed up in ch (too much chulent)

  I must disagree with the writer!

  We people in crown height had enough!

  I would love to disagree with you but i do not understand what point you are trying to get across..

• hc

  Where did you say you lived?. lubavitch women dress attractively, stylishly and tznius. You sound like you think your the only one.

• MEN get out

  Men you dont belong in the articale take your opinions and get out

• no one special

  If you live in a community which takes the position that men have no self-control,(a thought held by 2 other major religions
  which insist on women being invisible by the restrictions of the dress code)you have to decide whether you can withstand being shunned, avoided and remaining single. So move to a community where a less intense standard exists, or be a good little lamb & join the flock.

• To the author of this Op Ed

  I would write this to you directly and confidentialy, however you chose not to disclose your identity.
  Firstly, I am not convinced that you are neither young, unmarried, or a female. There are various subtleties found in your choice of language and comunication style that are a bit conflicting with the persona you are attempting to create.
  My little advice to you get a mashpia and/or a therapist to deal with your insecurity and your need to dress up in order to validate yourself. I do not mean to offend you or to hurt your feelings. Please forgive me if I have.
  There are various personality disorders among members of this community. The resulting effect is the constant need to revalidate feelings, and exhibiting political stances.
  If you are so sure of your psycho/social position, why not simply go on with your choice of dress, and attire, without calling so much attention to it? What is it about your background, childhood, schooling, etc. that prompts you to verbalize your cognitive thinking patterns, to the world wide web?
  I hope you find your inner peace, while resolving traumatic experiences you may have endured.
  P.S. I agree with 99% of your beliefs, and I raise my family with a sensitivity to individuality, while conforming wholeheartedly to the directives of our holy Torah.

• i agree

  i think this is an amazing, thought provoking article, though it is weird to see men comment on a woman’s mitzvah

• I think...

  I believe the authors point was not to establish why she dresses fashionably, but to point out the flaws in peoples thinking patterns when it comes to a certain way of dress and the inability to see a little past the norm.

• Mendy

  To #15

  You’re a very funny person. First of all, she wrote this on ch.info, not in some women’s magazine. Secondly, most wome dress the way they dress in order to get a guy’s attention, so I think men have a valid opinion on this subject.

• wake up and smell the coffee

  I am a middle aged married woman in Crown Heights and am told by all that I dress well NOT DOWDY at all!I dress in what suits my figure (which is slim) and not what “in” (even though it may look horrendous on some)But I make sure to be dressed in a way that yes, I would feel very comfortable going to the Rebbe this way. NO ONe ever said that dressing tzniusdik has to make you look dowdy etc. you must not be from crown heights if you haven’t seen the many many women here that dress beautifully, in vogue and yet totally tzniusdik.

• How refreshing!

  To the writer: Brava!!!!!
  To #4 Seriously: …Seriously????!!!
  To #5 wrote -“A happy person is someone who is content with themselves, no matter what they dress. Someone who is at peace with themselves, does not need clothes to make him/her happy, to feel a self worth.”:…get real! Everyone cares about how they present themselves, and they SHOULD; try wearing shabby or torn and stained clothes – would you still hold true on what you say? Would that be a kiddush HaShem? And if what you say is true, then why the tradition of getting new clothes for Yom Tov? New jewelry? Why did the women in the midbar make themselves beautiful if it has no value?
  #7 Nobody wrote: “They are plain, they are dowdy, they are old fashioned, they follow Torah, Torah is …” Are you trying to say there is a logical path here? “plain and dowdy” therefore equals “following Torah”? Really? Can they not follow Torah and NOT be dowdy???? One does not equate the other, nor does it exclude the opposite. (not to mention that you contradict yourself from one statement to the next – isn’t following tradition conformity?)

  I think this was a beautifully written, clear and precise article, without the innuendo that commentators are trying to attach. As for “blazing a path” – not that this article is doing that, but for the sake of acknowledging #7’s statement – how is it again that we have a tradition of wearing a kapota and black hat? what about the shtreimel? This is a tradition, noble indeed, but hardly unnoticeable, and it certainly stands out in a crowd. And yet, no one would deem it as “inappropriate” or not “tznius”. So why criticize a writer for stating simply that she adheres strictly to tznius and can still be stylish and fashionable? On the contrary, THIS is what we should encourage and applaud so that the problems that exist in our neighborhood with tznius can diminish…show the world that being frum means you CAN have both – who wants to be “dowdy”? Show me a woman who WANTS to be dowdy? How do you hope to impress young girls and women alike to be tznius if you attach the idea of “dowdy” with it??? Are there dowdily-dressed women? – sure, in every walk of life, frum and not frum…but don’t equate that with the concept of tznius – it is what it is – bad fashion sense! For example, when I see a reasonably young woman wearing shoes suitable for an elderly woman or the janitor at school, I don’t think “Wow, she must be really frum”; instead, I think, “Wow, those are really ugly shoes, doesn’t she care more for herself?” The writer isn’t endorsing anything “outlandish”, simply unique and stylish. Taking what we have in this world today and using it in a kosher fashion, which is what she is promoting, isn’t that making a ‘dira b’tachtonim’? Can fashion be crazy,yes; can it be put to good use, yes. Just like we use multi-media to promote yiddishkeit…multimedia can be used in a good way and a bad way, but no one is saying you have to exclude it altogether…so don’t exclude fashionability from the world of tznius…and fyi, I am sure that those “dowdy” women are not deliberately TRYING to be dowdy; I don’t believe there are women who want to be considered dowdy, nor feel morally superior if classified as such. Every woman wants to feel beautiful in her own way; there just happens to be a lot of us who don’t necessarily succeed in pulling that off – it isn’t an attribute…no one goes into a store and asks for the ugliest dress possible or that it shouldn’t flatter…nor should they. Is it possible to go overboard on fashion and miss out on the concept of tznius? YES. But I think that going out of your way to be the opposite of fashionable reflects negatively as well. I think this writer suggests a happy medium.

• LA Morah

  the writer says that a traditionally dressed girl doesn’t look in the mirror too long and feels unattractive.that is unkind and is a broad accusation toward every more conservatively dressed girl.obviously the writter is trying to make herself feel better.she may enjoy wearing a diiferent type of style than what is the norm in crown heiths but she needs to be mature about it.

• to crownheights.info

  I find it really inappropriate that you posted this article on your website. It’s not something to be discussed over a crown heights community blog, where both men and woman contribuite to the discussions.

• to #17- to the author of this op-ed

  how long ago did you get your degree phycology

• hmm

  to 12-write an op ed. I want to hear what you have to say.
  to 4-hope yours sarcastic
  gave me food for thought

• Nobody

  To #16 – get a clue, Tzinus is not about the self control of men. Unlike some other groups where their warped view of Tznius only applies in public, in Yiddishkeit it applies in private just as much – and for the same reasons. After all, G-d is everywhere.

• somebody

  look in the mirror, and ask yourself if the Rebbe would be giving dollars now, would i be dressed in way that i feel i could walk by him. yes or no.

• Neturei Carta

  I think we should start and new group: Keep Our Women Z’nius, or KOWZ.

• ad mosay wrote

  If you all noticed a black women on the right side of the picture faced to us? she looks pretty modest is not she? as far as we let fancy-shmensy stores to be opened in CH, as far as we are not going to be a role models to our girls, as far as we will be sulent on a mass in our holy comunity – take a deep breath…. moshiach now.

• You-re unique- just like everyone else

  In the name of being yourself, unique and not part of the herd mentality, you sound exactly like every other Beis Rivka girl. Join the club!

• Chaim Tovim

  I strongly believe that the Rebbe was non conformist to other people’s views but 100% in sync with the Shulchan Aruch and our minhagim.

  The Rebbe constantly stressed the need for a personal rov and a mashpia. If your rov says that the style of clothing you wear is permitted and your mashpia and you agree it is befitting you, then knock yourself out; no need to broadcast on the internet.

  The main problem our community faces is people who are not tznius within; and express it in their clothes or lack thereof.

  It is crucial to recognize that our cars, our homes, and our clothes don’t make us who we are; it is our midos, our goal, our ambitions, our achievements and our help of others that make us good people. It is a sad day when you measure yourself based on how attractive others think you are in your clothes or car, and shows a lack in the fundamentals of what makes life valuable.

• shvigger wannabee

  I think you would make a great wife for my son if you have the same committment to being a good wife, mother and dugma chaya for your children. I wish I knew who you are. You are a very good writer as well!

  I think #28 is exactly right. Thats all that needs to be said

• chana

  this article has no point!! who cares what u wear as long as ur tznius!! am i missing something?????

• Soroh

  In very brief. . . Tznius means not bringing attention to yourself , by being different to the norm and contrary to what the reader seems to think, the ‘norm’ does not have to equate dowdiness, lack of interest in ones appearance etc etc; Tznius also means, not making, heads turn to take a second look, when you walk by, or into a room, not causing people to ‘gasp’ in surprise at your general finished appearance, not getting others to admire, and thus follow your ‘example’ if its one that is questionable in any way, which sounds like it may well be, in her case; Tznius also means, ensuring , that , yes, you are not ‘out of the ordinary,’not necessarily boring or ‘plain’ , but decent and presentable enough to be able to walk out of ones house in the morning, knowing that you are totally wearing what you should be wearing, in every manner possible. . . and , yes, still look good, really good in fact, in every aspect;
  For some reason, she seems to be trying to convince herself, and others, that what she is doing is all fine and dandy, and that she has no problem with it herself, which is highly questionable , by the sound of things , and that is why she feels the need to write an article such as the one she has written; It would appear that she has major issues with the whole topic and if that is the case, it should be sorted, before it goes overboard;
  One can totally look amazing, feel amazing and dress amazing and still stay within the realms of tznius in every way; As your other readers questioned, so rightly, “when you leave the house in the morning, are you totally confident that if the Rebbe would walk by, you would KNOW with your heart that He would be proud of who and what you are and how you look?” If the answer to that is a resounding ‘yes’, then nothing more needs to be said

• open your eyes and appreciate.

  modesty is the inner beauty of a women. style seems fun but modesty is a style that will always be beautiful on a women. modesty shows that a person has self respect for herself. modesty is royalty. a princess would never show a place in her body that needs to be covered, because she doesn’t sell herself for the world to stare at her attractive body. yidden are princesses to the almighty G-d we are lucky and need to realize that by the Torah asking us to dress modestly it is our own protection and own beauty.modesty is a segula for sholem bayis, healthy children and many brachos.

• ok

  the preoccupation with materialism and one’s appearance is an issue in its own right but being tzanua is a nice start….

• to 26

  its ok il leave it for others but what im trying to say is that not wearing black and white and hat and jacket does not mean your a bad or not chasidishe person and it bothers me alot when pepole think like that

• A bochur?

  To 26: 12 sounds like a bochur who can’t understand why fashionable clothes and chassidishkeit are often opposites. Looks like he typed up the comment on a phone or something. Married men don’t seem to have an issue as they often wear colored shirts. Only a bochur would complain about wearing only black and white.

• Friend of author

  In todays society girls are encouraged to talk out their questions or reasoning’s or just general life thoughts, to enable ourselves to take the response into thought…
  TO # 17, i was disgusted by your response; how can you be pointing such blunt and absurd accusations. from reading YOUR paragraph i can say YOU are the insecure one, how is the feeling now? and for a matter of a fact i know the girl who has written the article and yes she is an unmarried GIRL who does NOT live in CH. please be careful next time on how and what you say – especially when jumping to such fast conclusions about the personality of the author.
  to end this off, this article is beautifully written, and at the same time some of the comments are really deep and true too; the negative ones and the positive equally, it allows us to keep thinking and walking with a less blinded view in the darkened world we live in now.
  One more point though to send off my motto; in life we can sit and blame everyone for everything that happens or comes our ways, but nothing will change, nothing will come about – what will change some what or another is to sit and blame OURSELVES and how ‘I’ can change and improve myself in that area. because at the end of the day NO ONE will ever know the other side fully until you literally put yourselves in others shoes (which is impossible), the example is if i hold up a piece of paper the person in front of me will see a fat square but the person sitting beside me will see a thin line – the two people analysing the paper will not understand how the opposing girl got a completely different shape describing the one paper being held up, they will not understand until they move over onto each others seats. So yes life is hard, full of challenges but the only way in life is to accept the fact that ‘I’ have to change, and that others can be correct too – rather than worrying about how everyone else should be according to your perspective on the ‘shapes’ of life.
  Moshiach now

• to 35

  yes im a bocher and i dont like when pepole judge by looks. A bocher is alowd to care what he wears. I know thers a limit to what you can wear for example a graphic t shirt is not for a bocher because its just to goyish but a nice colored botton down shirt is not bad at all. I hope you get what i mean. I wear what i think is ok either way just trying to get other pepole to understand the situation.

• good job

  great article.

  There doesnt always need to be a point to make a message. This is a message – and its a valid one. If this is the way a person feels then its right for them

• no one special

  #27,,,you have no understanding of Halacha and no knowledge of the other religions mentioned.

• to 41

  i think that you meant 39 and not 35. A bocher with a colored shirt can be a great bocher but that doesnt make him chasidish. Now don’t go gangsta on people that dont agree with your opion

• tznius

  we are in different times with different standarts for tznius
  It’s not the same tznius in Kfar Chabad , Tzfas, CH,LA,etc,and this was even in the Rebbe’s times
  Today ,Tznius means, specially in Chabad America means sheitel,skirt on knees level, and this is it
  You see the same regarding men, now many young shluchim don’t wear a hat, only in Shabbos (this was unheard before 1992),there are many new secular programs in the Chabad Houses with little content,etc, today things are different
  it’s hard for ppl coming from old generations to agree with the change, and this is why you see,for example inCH, young ppl are establishing own shuls were old ppl who would want to participate should agree with their rules,etc

  OLD Mashpiim talk about tznius, young ppl not too much, they see the new reality of things
  You have many shluchos , that influenced by their enviroment,they dress different, and this is what young girls like, to be a “modern shlucha”, or a modernLub girl

• Thumbs up for Chabad Girls!

  I think the article was interesting and the comments more so
  My father sometimes says to me “people aren’t made of plastic”
  we’re people, we all have our insecurities and challenges and Tznius is definitely a big one for many-(myself included)

  I strongly feel that the way Tznius is taught is completely wrong; for me school trying to educate and enforce … did much more damage than good (and Im sure many will agree with me)

  Anyway for both girls and boys; but especially girls I think that to get a healthy and happy approach on Tznius you need to read GILA MANOLSON’s books
  May we all have Hatzlacha in overcoming our challenges (though it’s not easy)Today is Pesach Sheini and we learn that it’s never a done deal, Hashem’s always going to be there to help us if we really want it.
  Good luck
  n’eNow

• to 45

  “in the rebbe’s times”

  now i see why you have such sad opinions.

• ......................

  each one of us knows deep inside, if we are dressing to be attractive or attracting.There is a very fine line between the two. We could dress in style and be beautiful, and yes, be 100% tzniusdik. And of course, we could dress with the objective of “looking s…” and yet pretend to be tzniusdik. We know and Hashem knows, and ultimately we don’t fool anyone but ourselves.

• to 44

  thanks for the correction but what with the gangsta part what are you trying to say

• serel chana maness

  basicly by now,in my mid-fifties,l really don’t pay to much attention to what l’m wearing,as long as it is clean,put together,and comatable,l very litel interest in what l’m wearing

• mentsch

  Most people outside of Crown Heights would probably consider how the frum writer thinks she is dressed tznius. maybe she should take a look at the recent warnings up in williamsburg

• Yosy

  I commend your well written article. However, I must beg to differ with you when you state that it matters not which path is chosen – but, that ultimately we all end up at at our destined goals.
  This is wholly untrue! The paths that we choose to take are predestined by Hashem, however, our individual choices of taking a path of truth and goodness according to the laws of our holy Torah does not mitigate an alternate path of evil and wrongdoing.
  Therefore, when a person chooses to do and dress in a way which is forbidden by our holy Torah – they oftentimes DO NOT end up at the same point regardless of their actions and intentions.

• malka

  1. This is really all you have to worry about or write on? Are you looking for a controversy? BH Crown Heights women dress “normal” and can enjoy being themselves and no one runs around Kingston measuring skirt lengths or worrying on wearing pink or blue.

  2. “What’s the point of you writing this? If it’s for practicing your writing skills then very nice; your a talented writer. ”
  No, I would not say it’s a well written piece, as you have to read through it twice to figure out why the writer wrote something that is clear… she’s not fancy, she is fancy, she is stylish… nail polish on toe nails peeking out from below a floor length jean skirt…

  3. There is so much that is important in the world… don’t start controversy where there is none.

  I am very glad the writer of this article feels she is an individual, we all are … even those women locked up in the black world of other Frum communities.

  Tzenus is like Loshon Hora…say anything and someone somewhere will point a finger at someone.

  Being tzenus is not talking about it..if you ask me.

• LA Morah

  #45,it sadens me that you write “ in the rebbe’s times”.i understand what you’re saying and it really is so sad for the youth who did not grow up seeing the rebbe.this anything goes atmosphere,especially re:tzneeus since gimel tamuz is tragic.

• Anticriticism

  Pondering I find it interesting that there are so-called “correctly” dressed people, both men and women, who speak ill of others, laugh at the expense of others, cheat, steal, abuse others mentally or emotionally or physically, and so on. And yet they dress “correctly”. Can you tell me which is more important? And for those who adhere to both kinds of appropriateness: It’s wonderful to known that some people have integrity both within and outwardly. Very honorable and very worthy of the highest praise. If I had to choose, I’d surely pick the inner integrity. Perhaps some “rightly” dressed people should take a look at themselves and ask themselves which of the three possibilities they represent.

• to # 41

  are you one of those guys who wear jeggings (tight jeans that look like tights lol!

• Newly married...

  This article is amazing, well written and has a very good point and message. Her point is not to describe herself but rather speaking the minds of all the girls who feel this way and don’t speak up for themselves. To those who claim not to care about style and how they look and go as far as to say its wrong etc. its sufficient to say that those girls/woman are trying to convince them self that they are happy but are merely fooling no one but them selfs.
  I think you girls are the only ones who feel like that and definitely have issues. It is Human to want to feel good about the way you look. And as people pointed out – even the Torah says we should care about our appearances. Every person has many chalenges and for many or most i should say, whether they will admit it or not , Tznius is their biggest chalenge and therefore this topic is the most spoken about and most Mussored about.. So to all of you who have negative comments to this article, please, open your eyes to the world and to your children/daughters. Because of you (closed minded mothers and woman), many girls are not just careless but unfortunately not religious at this point. If people would respect and relate to others, especially our new young generation who face a crude world with distractions and temptations far greater than you mothers did when you were younger and would be able to respect their taste and opinions that are not bad and are actually Tnius, (yes, it may not necessarily be your taste), they would not feel the need to go to the extreme and turn completely against Yidishkeit.
  Obviously Tznius comes with a lot of obligations, im not going to disagree and say ‘do what ever you want’ and expect to be excepted, but if you (mothers and woman, especially from the older generation), open your eyes and hearts to your daughters, and to the girls out there, you will see the true good in them and help them bring it out. it’s not about whether you live in crown heights or not, people from all circles feel this way and are looked upon in this way. It’s sad but there has to be compromise.

• What I think

  Well written. We need to be Tznius AND well dressed;)

• to 56

  why would you think so

• Moshe

  It says clearly in chassidus that if you got it you should flaunt it. Ober mit mazel!

• sad excuse

  #2 is a standard answer in defensiveness, but it is such an absurd excuse.

• phsycoligical by-product of -our system-

  I think you are trying to justify the face that you want to be like the rest of the modern world and be a little fashionista who wears the cutest clothing and always looks admirable. Ya, every woman does. so what. the way the article was written, and this is from a phsyciological point of view. This person is very confused and insecure about trying to be ‘modern’ without looking like it and at the same time not trying to look like she’s trying to be stylish or fashionable.
  woman and men should always feel good about themselves. its called self esteem. But it doesnt always work that way. sometimes we get mistreated or make mistakes and dont feel that good. looking good comes from feeling good about yourself. there’s no major science to that. And everyone should look good and presentable. For woman, looking good involves many details. Hair, face, nails etc… so ya, we have more room to be creative. So. so be creative. look good. and whats your point? some people are telling you that your shoes are ‘prust’ or your shirt is too bright. well take a step back and think about why you wear certain things and why somebody may be distrubed by it. We always have to be working on ourselves and be aware of our surroundings. Conventional wisdom will tell you to be a free bird and spread your wings. As long as you dont crash into tree’s, fly anywhere you want. truthful? no. we dont live like that, that’s not our upbringing. look a little deeper and you will find that clothing is external but you are not. and your clothing reflect you. so if your so worried about what the you that people are seeing is gonna upset somebody, so don’t wear it. and you don’t need to be so uptight. this article is a byproduct of our ‘school system’ that has tried to preach ‘pnymyusdic’ but has done everything but that. so good luck. look a little deeper. maybe you just need to move out of ghetto ch. or Talk to R manis and maybe you won’t be so confused and insecure anymore. Good Luck.

• girl

  i agree with the fact that women shouldnt be untnius, but wearing a flashy vintage outfit with shiny gold jewelery is also highly questionable. Tnuis is being modest as a person, so yes you should be a happy person with a good self esteem. But that doesnt mean u go out and tell everyone how your dressed, that your an individual. Your unique!just like everyone else. and Tznius shouldnt be talked about if u pride yourself in it, then be it. Even the people who you say is dressed dowdy and shabby, who defines what shabby is?! does the clothes have to be designer to not be called shabby!? who cares if a girl isnt a weekday ‘shobbos clothes girl’, yes which defines a girl who walks around everyday like shes off to a wedding. This girl who is walking around in normal clothes is tnius to the affect that if anyone would look at her, they wouldnt think “oh look at her and how wow shes dressed” no the mind wouldnt dwell so long on the outside. which is the point. materialism is taken very far here in CH, so yes be well dressed (not ripped clothes,dirty etc) but dont spend your life based on if your vintage outfit matches your moccasins. As the one of the rabbaim said “ive seen feet in cholashin, but never a head in cholashin”
  LETS ALL LIVE FOR SOMTHING BIGGER AND BETTER AND TRY NOT TO JUDGE OTHERS, AND BRING MOSHIACH NOW!!
  (im not judging u or how u are but u posted this online which means other people are reading this, so im judging this article, i apologize if i said anything to offend u.)

• A CH Girl

  To all those “frum” dressed women who look down at me:

  You may dress more tnius than me but when you flash that diamond ring on your finger – is that tznius? My elbows and knees don’t call for attention to myself, but that rock sure does!

  My feet may be without socks, but when you trash people with loshon hara – I think you need a sock stuffed in your mouth.

  Before you judge me, lady, look in a mirror!

• The MEN?!

  To all those who think the men should mind their own business: If only women would realize that this IS very much the men’s business – possibly more so than the women’s – maybe people would actually get their act together and try to do something about the issue, instead of writing eloquent, silly articles promoting non-conformism, and condemning everything the Rebbe, Lubavitch, and Judaism stood for for thousands of years.

• To #11

  Do they give you nightmares?

• Sad

  U can call i t narrow-minded but think of it this way..if a guy has grown up in a ‘normal run of the mill fam’ where the girls dress nicely and tniusdikly etc. OF COURSE they will think there is something wrong with the way u dress if ur pairing wierd pieces of clothing together.BELIEVE ME,if people have told u to conform its because ur fashion sense borders on the insane or the wacky.This community allows for ALOT but if u hear over and over again that ur fashion is an issue..it most likely is…

• ATT: EDUCATORS OF CH

  CAN EVERYONE PLEASE STOP MISSPELLING THE WORD PSYCHOLOGY/PSYCHOLOGICAL AND ANY OTHER WORDS WITH THE ROOT WORD OF PSYCHE…IT IS DRIVING ME INSANE!

  (as a general rule PH makes an F sound NOT an S sound)

  Thank you

• a true eishes chayol

  The pen writes what the soul yearns, today in our world we feel how we do not by choice rather by love, love of life and love of living, living how it was meant to be, when the first man and woman lived – they lived without judgments and juxtapositions rather they lived in harmony with true love for another.

  Ask ourselves – why do we act as such? Is it a matter of conforming to the world? Or is it the world conforming to us.

  Jewish blood warms for the act of kindness which bestow upon each other.

  Let us all accept all for who they are, and merit the greatest gift of them all – the coming of the Rebbe Bguf Gashmi B-Seven Sevendi

• Food for Thought

  If you are going to spew REBBE make sure to do so accurately! The Rebbe often gave people money to purchase the most beautiful shaitel. The Rebbe wanted people to feel beautiful while doing a mitzvah.
  The same thing with tznius. As long as a person is dressing within the guidelines of tznius, there is nothing wrong with dressing in flattering clothing. Stylish attire can still be within the boundaries of the spirit of tznius.
  Often clothing that seems to follow halacha is not tzniusdik at all!

  To those of you that would like to blame the shluchos, maybe take a little peek inside your soul. Perhaps you are feeling some of that famous Jewish guilt because you are not on shlichus. Maybe you are jealous. I am not sure. But I do know that these shluchos that dress well encourage GIRLS (not guys) to come to Chabad Houses without opening their mouths. Yes, I heard it from girls themselves. Many people feel a pull toward yidishkeit then freak out when they see poorly dressed FRUM women.

  Being the best representative of your messenger is important for every shliach. Making yiddishkeit beautiful is important.

  Personally I would like to thank the author of this article. Whether married or not, voicing the issue is important. Family, schooling, community all add to the background and life every individual experiences. We can’t change that, and at the rate we are going we are not going to change our education system either. So if that is a factor in the makeup of the author and every other Bais Rivkah girl out there, it only proves how important it is to enlighten the masses.

  Trying to chain people to tight is only going to toss them farther when they break free.

• b

  You got plenty going for you that the more conventional don’t: guts, ingenuity, character, the list goes on. there are some things not worth giving up for the sake of impressions.
  even better… take your individuality beyond the wardrobe (if you havent already) doing what’s right even if it’s not socially accepted (while conforming in the right ways) is what changes society for the better.

• Weird

  Sorry, what is the point of this article?
  a. Are you really so bored? Please, go DO something.
  b. In CH ppl are free to dress as individuals,tznius or not, it’s a free country, and people obviously take THAT very seriously, lol.
  c. That line between attractive and attracting is something you already know when you walk out that door. (And yes, if the majority of people walking down the street are staring, you have got a problem there, and no don’t blame them, if you really care about tznius, you would tone it down a bit. I don’t see how you can argue with this, tznius by definition means not to attract an undue amount of attention.)

• GL

  Why is it that anytime there is an article on these websites discussing controversial issues (or topics that no one else has the guts to bring up), the author is immediately attacked and told ‘to find another community.’

  Who do you guys think you are?!

  You preach ‘ahavas yisroel’ and claim to follow the exact direction of the Rebbe, yet you are the ones that are filled with so much hate and impatience for anyone who isn’t the ‘perfect Lubavitcher’ as you clearly claim to be.

  Outreach is your pride and joy, yet you are so cold and angry towards those in your own community. Your own neighbors. Your own kids.

  The Rebbe stressed love, warmth, and acceptance of every Jew.
  What a great role model you are.

  YOU are the biggest chillul Lubavitch here.

  I’m sure you’re making the Rebbe really proud.

• Disgusted

  Pondering I find it interesting that there are so-called “correctly” dressed people, both men and women, who speak ill of others, laugh at the expense of others, cheat, steal, abuse others mentally or emotionally or physically, and so on.
  —
  I am tired of this kind of excuse – it is false and just a way for the modern crowd to justify itself and feel superior when they are very inferior. I have always found that it is those who are lax in tznius and modern in appearance who are the scammers, the scoffers, the manipulators, the abusers. In fact I appreciate that the modern crowd of wannabe Donald Trumps and Oprah Winfreys dresses as they do. This way I know not to even give them so much as the time of day, because I know that what is outside is just a reflection of the rot inside.

• Great...

  To number 64, I feel the same way….I thought this was supposed to be a welcoming community, where people open their arms to everyone. These responses and others I’ve seen prove just the opposite. I know you know you don’t point out individual people but this loshon hora disgusts me.

  So someone’s tznius standards aren’t the same as yours, get over it!

• times change but Torah remains the same.

  to number 45 yes we are in different times, and things do change. but halacha doesnt change. the halachos of tznius remain the same.

  If you are dressed according to Halacha, it doesn’t matter what people say. They may think you are not tznius, but if you are….we need to fear Hashem, not people!

  according to the reform and conservative movement halacha is pliable, or disposable whatever is convenient at the time.

  Times are different so Jewish Law changes.

  However, that is not the authentic Torah approach.

• lame....

  have we forgotten there are bigger issues in the world? you’re complaining about how hot you think you are when there are millions of people who go to bed hungry each night? gimme a break….

• Schmatte Business

  What the author is saying is that there is a wide range of styles that still fit within tznius. I am a man, but I have dealt in “the schmatte business” as a liquidator and will do so again if the opportunity presents itself. So, I have seen and sold bundles of different outfits, including some that I put aside to offer to the community knowing that they were tzniusdige.

  I also know enough halacha to know what covers properly and have enough sense to know what stands out too much. Therefore, I know that yes, there is room within tznius for just about every individual taste except punk, or goth, or whatever freaks now call themselves.

  In fact, I was once at the Ohel at an odd hour and the only other people there were an “Ingarisch” couple. She was so far behind the times in her mode of dress that she stood out – the exact opposite of what tznius is supposed to be.

  Tznius is not supposed to be the one-size-fits-all ethos of Sdoim, even if there are technical rules. Self-expression is not ossur.

• go off

  to #61 its not an excuse … not everyone is made to be a robot some people go off that way!

• Fashionforward/in the box contradiction?

  at times like these we need to remind ourseleves of the tachlis at hand. is this what the Rebbe would want Lubavitch to be today? with all this pirud and seemingly incomprehensible activity that threatens our hearts, minds and very existence. we beg to ask ourselves if its causing COMMUNITY conflict end it and end it now! what about lashon hara and hurting ppls feelings? it MUST come into the equation for the sake of our dor and the dor haba the future youth of the world!

  lag baomer is fast approaching – the message is crystal clear however a forum like this it begs a repitition!!
  sinas chinam teared ppl apart and killed 14,000 students talmid chachamim! we need to accept everyon for what they are whatever madereiga there on or whatever toe nail polish they have we dont know the nisyonos of the other the Rebbe was a prime example of treating everyone with the same love and respect no matter gender, social status or religious level of observance. let us all take a leaf out of his book , try and mirror the Rebbe and emulate his way thropugh learning about his life and when watching videos focus on the human relations aspect of the Rebbe his sensitivity and looking each and every person in the eye! be it a 3 yr old child or an elderly man
  we should be zoche to the coming of moshiach where there will be alla gutte zachen and Hakadosh baruch hu should grant us with the yiras shamayim to overcome our challenges!
  at this time we need to enhance the ahavas yisroel to aid in the matzav in eretz yisroel.

• number 77 - get real!

  to number 77 no offense but send money to the hungry ones if you have money for wireless Internet than a dollar a day wont burn a hole in your pocket!!

• Vinatge Clothing is Back in A big Way

  I understand your need to feel unique, but as far as I can see Vintage Clothing is totally in and you are conforming more than you know it.

• Schitso

  I would like to voice my opinion on this matter.
  I feel this is the most absurd thing I have ever read. It is clear that one must do exactly as shulchan aruch says – did not the Rebbe stress that we must have bittul? If that means that we must walk around with garbage bags all over us – as indeed we must – then so we must do.
  I feel that this is amazing – blaze the way for revolution! Let us sweep the world with the fire of change! It is no longer necessary to cover ones hair with another’s – use a pillow case! And not just tznius – let us change the way everything – instead of cholent let’s have pizza! CHANGE!!! YEAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!
  From the schitsophreniac

• Opinionated

  As a teenager who has been round the block; a person and an identity formed through traipsing along the length of Vogue-strewn paths and niggun-filled nights, trust me when I say I empathise with the struggle.

  Have you ever written off a brilliant mind because it was obscured by the colour red? Have you ever slipped theacceptance note into girl 2’s postbox because girl 1’s struggle is visible for all to see? Or were you the one who’s eyes brushed past he girl who was having a hard day, who’s skirt lay on their knee and, because of your lack of acceptance and love, will struggle that bit harder to yank it down?

  I am all the above. I have had to contend with a determined evil inclination fueled by disapproval and harsh looks. Do you think I am stupid? Do you think I don’t know I am a fully flawed human – just like you, and just like that tragically mistaken person who could turn me down – a girl with good middos and a good heart – in place of another – who does not dress like a princess at all in her frumpiness. And no, I may only be a princess some days on the insde, but if another is a princess on he outside and her inside is barren of goodness,she will get further in life, won’t she? Simply because her problems are simply sweeped under the rug.

  Everyone, it’s time for the adults in this world to take a long hard look at themselves. A person who has a problem, well, if you don’t show them your unconditional love, they won’t improve to prove to someone that they can be treated like that.

  All I’m saying is that, if it was a lashon horo problem, or a middos problem, the judgement wouldn’t be as harsh. And I’ve seen it time and time again – appreciating the journey and the time it takes seems to be a slap in the face for something in your face. What’s the problem? Are you worried that yu can’t hide a problem from yourself- and from others – if the problem is an open one?

  So now, let’s be open now: why is it that the floodgates open like a tsunami the moment this article is written? Why is it that it all comes pouring out, like it has been held back, arms behind her back?

  To touch an issue and receive an outpour of so
  many contrasting opinions shows not ony that there are many people, with many views, but that there is a lot to say on the subject, that there is a very real subject to talk about.

  To conclude the inconclusive usually leaves one confused, but I would like to commend kindness, and empahy and patience, for those goin through the struggle. Also, honesty, of your motives of anger and honestly attempting to look beyond the flaws… People aren’t perfect, let’s just stop for a moment to contemplate whether it’s G-d’s pride or yours this aggravating symptom of imperfection is stepping on.

• Tova

  There are so many larger issues; it’s sad that CH has reduced women to tznius and nothing more.
  If you’re dressed modestly, I see no problem. Most people outside of CH would consider you modest, and you’re covering what needs to be covered. I’d much rather see you making tznius work for you than not dressing modestly at all.

• Shout it from the rooftop

  If what you wear is what makes you unique, you are not that unique after all.

• To #17

  Regardless of the question of whether she is young, unmarried, or female, you cannot say that her desire to look presentable stems from a lack of self-esteem. The inner desire we all have to look nice is as much of an inner desire as that to be tznius. We don’t dress in garbage bags.

• To 82 and others

  If she became an anti-conformist, her life would be dictated by society.
  What she is trying to say is that she uses fashion to her own advantage – if there is something there she likes, she takes it. At least that’s what I think she’s saying.
  To all those who say she is insecure: I find that opinion absolutely ridiculous. She wants to be able to express herself. She sounds like a very artsy type of person who enjoys putting clothing together and wearing it. She likes to look good, as should we all. That’s all. Stop trying to be psycho-analysts.
  To #68: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POINTING THAT OUT! THE SPELLING HERE COULD DRIVE A PERSON CRAZY!

• To 86

  Who said what you wear makes you unique? What you wear expresses the uniqueness IN OTHER ASPECTS OF YOUR PERSONALITY.

• To 77

  Obviously there are greater problems in the world. But every problem is proportionate with its owner to everyone else’s problems.

• to 69

  what nice words! you have uplifted my soul.

• Understanding

  hello!! It is the height of rudeness to tell someone that there are bigger problems in the world! If something pains you, it is an issue, and it should be an issue for all of us. The bigger problem here is probably the men who judge women on a mitzvah they have never had to partake in, men whom don’t always partake in their side of the mitzvah very well. The bigger problem is the lack of love flowing through this article. There is not enough empathy and way too many harsh words here. Can’t we all – if in agreement or not – say that you are a jew and we love you, that no, we may not all get the struggle – though too many do – but we are by your side even when we are not on your side, because jews understand pain and struggle, and attempting to move through that – like a survivor, like a bal teshuvah, like a ger… in synch with all these amazing individuals, you too are reaching to get that much closer to H-shem. And that should be commendable to all.
  thank you for voicing an issue that needs to be voiced. People need to forge their own path through life, be it through ‘vogue-strewn streets’ or a labrynth of circles, everyone has their own path through the water to reach the other side.

• vintage

  Though you talk of vintage and others of it’s lack of individuality, one glance at a O&A Urban Outfitters dress or a thrift-shop find will tell a different story. Very tznius, yet still very unique, vintage fashion is a way to embody the trends and elevate one of the few refined styles to a level of fulfillment and contentment.

• Author

  Let me begin by thanking crownheights.info for putting up this article.
  A reaction on this level was not expected and I appreciate all the comments, both the negative and the positive.
  For those who questioned the ‘point’ and the ‘unclear and unnecessary’ message of this article- I think that the amount of comments is proof enough of its’ validity and the message it contains.
  To answer everyone would be impossible, but a few points I want to make:
  – I specifically mentioned a number of times that Tznius is not the issue I’m feeling is frowned upon as I know I am Tznius- rather its the fashion and the boundaries we may push within the realm of Tznius.
  – I never said I express my individulaity through my clothing- i said I had an individual way of dressing.
  – The attacks don’t bother me at all, but rather prove to me even further that this is a thought about- if not always talked about- topic that was brought out into the open.
  – there are so many larger issues to talk about? Sometimes it’s the smallest ones that are the source of all trouble…
  – It strikes me as rather funny that so many commented on the ‘looking in the mirror’ and ‘self esteem shouldn;t come from looking good’ aspect. Do i detect a trace of guilty conscience? Of all the points in this article, this one SHOULD apply to all women as mentioned by many in the comments.
  Again, thank you all for your feedback- may we all have the strength to deal with out own, INDIVIDUAL struggles!