Battle Brews Over Kosher Grape Juice
From the NY Post:
A food fight is breaking out in the kosher aisle — just in time for Passover next month. Manischewitz and Kedem — two established, national kosher food brands — will be duking it out for the first time over grape juice, a product Kedem has been making since 1958 and one that Manischewitz just launched with grape king Welch’s.
Supermarkets have started to get shipments of the co-branded product, which is made in Welch’s facility with rabbinical oversight.
Until now, “Kedem was the only competitor in this category that registered,” said David Sugarman, chief executive of Newark-based Manischewitz, “and we felt we could come out with a better product that tastes better.”
With $12 billion in annual sales, the kosher food industry is barely growing, so stealing market share is an attractive growth strategy.
Toshov hashchuna
Which is better kashrus wise? Please let us know the “inside” story of which is more hehudar!!
JoJo Compari
Hadar grape juice is 10x better!
haddar
When hadar made there own grape juice. Dedem said back off or we’ll ooen our brand of products you provide
haddar
When hadar did the same. Kedem told them back off. This is ours and only ours. They didn’t listen. Well kedem opend up to all of there products Hadar provide. The drove hafar out of most of there business. However with manoshewitz that’s hard as they have there contracts mainly in all the non jewish stores already over 100 years.
Lets see how kedem with handle this chuzpe quote on quote
B"H
Farbrengen tastes the best
Farbrengen is great and heimish
Some of the ones we are subjected to in EY are derived from shoe polish
to#6
i always wondered what shoe polish tastes like (I like the smell) thanks for helping
Pedant
Last I heard, Kedem’s Upstate production facility is staffed by frum Jews top to bottom, which for grape juice is very important, but in any case I will not purchase grape juice made in a non-kosher factory even with rabbinical supervision, because rabbinical supervision does not mean that it’s up to the highest standard.
The industry uses kulos, especially with respect to forms of equipment kosherization, which would be a huge issue for grape juice made in a treif facility.
You have to be discerning kosher consumer.
K
Don’t be SILLY! The “industry” is automated. Humans are not involved till after packaging. The so called kulos relied on are universal, such as the kashering process and temperature used for boiling “pasteurizing” the juice. You use grape flavored candy and other products that contain grape juice – and rely on the OU, so why are you suddenly worried about “kulos” in this product??? Plain SILLINESS!!! You are more maikel on food which carries issurim d’oraysa than grape juice / wine which is drabbonon!
Milhouse
Kedem doesn’t kasher anything, the bishul is done at a much higher temperature, and until the bishul nobody who is not shomer shabbos is able to even see the product, let alone touch it, because only shomrei shabbbos are allowed to set foot on the factory floor. Even Herzog’s wine maker, who is not a Jew, is not allowed to visit the floor, and does his job from his office.
Pedant
Ok very slowly — if it’s kosher only plant there is no kosherization. If it’s a plant that is made kosher for a run or two, then there is a kosherization. That’s an advantage without getting to the kulos involved in the kosherization, unless you can assume it’s done absolutely perfectly, which from experience you cannot.
Further, there are in fact kulos used in the industry, especially when it comes to kashring complex piping systems. There is no way that the kosherization process is gehalten according to all the deios, in fact the misnadgem probably don’t really hold that that’s necessarily desirable in any case. But when you have a choice between keilim that were only ever used for kosher and keilim that are regularly transfered back and forth you’d have to be out of your mind or a misnaged not to prefer the former to the latter.
The automation, therefore no humans involved as a general rule is too facile an argument to address. You have to know the inside outs of the particular production process to make that determination which is why there are initial rabbinical visits to make these determinations.
At bottom the kosher certification industry (at least in America) is at best all about providing you a product that you can eat according to shulchan aruch; they aren’t and should not be about the most mehuderdike way to keep mitivos kashrus, which is important to chassidim. It’s your nefesh.
K
Penant – Do you think that a keli that was kashered is “less kosher” than a keli that was always kosher?
That is border line kefira in toras moshe!
Milhouse
Yes, a keli that never needed to be kashered is “more kosher” than one that was kashered, for the same reason that an animal that didn’t need a shayla asked is “more kosher” than one that had a shayla and was ruled kosher.
K
By that logic, an animal was not kosher before it was shechted, the shechita “kashers” it, therefore a fruit is “more kosher” than an animal. Please, enough with silliness.
K
The chicken or meat had treif blood in it. The melicha “kashered” it. Does that mean it is less kosher or no longer glatt kosher?! Purim is over. Now such sevoras are Pure Shtus!
Milhouse
Excuse me, K? Are you seriously denying that it is a midas chassidus to avoid an animal about which a shayla had to be paskened?! This come straight from Chazal, how can you deny it?
Chosid
Hello? Isn’t Kedem forbidden from use due to the cherem on Satmar hechsher???
K
Which cherem? The cherem HaGra was on all chassidim! Satmar is one of the largest chassidic shchita and kashrus organizations.
Milhouse
Choside, Tzeilem was removed from the issur a week after it was imposed, after the Tezeilemer Rebbe condemned the attack on R Pinne Korf.
K, the GRA’s cherem was invalid, and was a terrible aveira that he did. The issur that Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch issued against the Satmar hechsher was a simple psak halacha, that rabbonim who violate לא תגורו מפני איש can’t be relied on for kashrus. If a rov let his fear of Satmar terrorists prevent him from condemning the attack on R Pinne Korf, how can we expect him to stand up to the literal mafia and remove his hechsher from products that become treif?
I’m sure you are aware of what R YB Soloveichik went through in Boston. R ZS Dworkin had similar experiences in Pittsburgh, and the same was true of many rabbonim, who literally put their lives at risk rather than give a bad hechsher. If they hadn’t been brave enough to defy the mafia where would kashrus be today?
K
Milhouse, please be careful from saying that the Gra was c”v a ba’al aveira. Even the Baal Hatanya had the greatest respect for the Gra, kal v’chomer, you .
Milhouse
The Alter Rebbe respected the GRA. Nevertheless he obviously did not accept the cherem’s validity, and agreed that it was a terrible mistake that the GRA did. He did it with good intentions, but it was still a terrible avera.
K
Surely all agree that stam yeinom is a d’robonon. Yet when it comes to d’oraysa issurim, every heter is applied!
Are people as mchmir on basser b’cholov when using one sink (with hot water on food particles) – or do they rely on various questionable heterim?
Are people as mchmir on chodosh which is ossur min haTorah b’chol moshmosaychem (according to nearly EVERY possek – Rif, Rosh, Rambam, Tur, S.A.!), or do they rely on a da’as yochid (Bach)?
This is where people go off the rails on a d’rabbonon, with strong heterim, while neglecting the real issurim (including food which is ossur min hatorah)!!
That is where I call for the Silly Police to get involved. When people go nuts over cholov yisroel or seek extra hechsherim to prevent stam yeinom while being meikil on shrotzim – bugs in vegetables and fruit!
Milhouse
Who uses one sink and treats it as kosher? I’ve never heard of such a thing. Everyone I know who doesn’t have separate sinks with separate pipes treats the sink as treif.
With regard to chodosh the Baal Shem Tov paskened that the halocho is like the Bach, and lechatchilo, not bediavad.
Who is meikil on shrotzim? We are as machmir about this as our bobbes and elter-bobbes were. However the Noda Biyhuda came up with a limud zechus that a sheretz is not botel in 1000 but it is botel in more than 1000, and there is a kaboloh from the Baal Shem Tov that although the NB meant it only as a limud zechus, he was in fact mechaven to the way they learn in yeshiva shel maaloh.
K
“Who uses one sink and treats it as kosher?” My eyes have seen when being a guest at a home used as a Chabad House. I needed a place to eat that was kosher. I was horrified and stopped eating there after seeing a single kitchen sink with a flimsy rubber mat that covered most of the bottom of the sink. Water would puddle and collect in the sink and I noted residue of actual pasta and cheese from lunch floating with pieces of chicken from supper. In this puddle were dishes, utensils, cutlery and a pot.
“Who is meikil on shrotzim?” I was at a recent simcha of a distant relative in Crown Heights and the caterer served WHOLE strawberries with the green part left intact. This was officially under the hashgocha of the CH rabbonim!
Chodosh: The Besht (let us assume he is a possek) holds like the Bach, against ALL the other poskim! REALLY!!
Milhouse
If you saw this did you tell them anything?
Milhouse
And yes, the Baal Shem Tov was a posek.
K
Testing a real “chumrah” related to grape juice or wine:
Always make kiddush on wine or grape juice, not liquor or beer – as stated in all poskim to be the preferred manner.
Milhouse
While this is true in general, there are exceptions. On motzoei Pesach beer is choviv, and therefore preferred for havdoloh even if wine is available. By the same reasoning, mashkeh on Simchas Torah should also be acceptable, though I haven’t seen this written explicitly.
However note that the Rebbe’s explicit opinion was that one makes kiddush on wine, not grape juice. He didn’t give a reason for this, but he insisted on it even on Shmini Atzeres ’38.
K
Poskim recommend the use of beer for havdalah on motzei shabbos chazon (to avoid wine during nine days). The alternative is to give the wine/grape juice to a tinnok to drink.
K
Motzei Pessach there is a special chavivos for beer which was chometz and forbidden for the past 8 1/2 days, therefore for HAVDALAH it is choviv.
The same does NOT apply to making KIDDUSH on Simchas Torah – when there was no issur of using “mashke” during the prior week. It simply has no shaychus with beer on motzei pessach!
Milhouse
Are you thick, or just off your game today? The example of Motzoei Pesach shows that chavivus is enough to override the general rule that if wine is available one may not use chamar medinah. Since on Simchas Torah mashkeh is choviv, the same consideration should apply.
K
Why would liquor be “more choviv” on SImchas Torah then any other yom tov or shabbos?
Simchas Torah isn’t Purim – there isn’t even one shita that holds it is a mitzva to “liquor up” on Simchas Torah (aside from a revi’is wine like any Yom Tov according to Rambam)!
The alcoholic ALWAYS favors liquor and the connoisseur of a good scotch will have a chavivus if it is AVAILABLE anytime (but botla dato – of the alcoholic or connoisseur – eitzel kol adom)!
K
The source for making havdalah motzei pessach on beer is The Gra. (It is not a minhag Ashkenaz and certainly not a minhag sefard).
The Gra made havdalah on beer after Pesach to show that it was now permissible and that the first chometz one consumes should be also mitzva.
The Chazon Ish held that bizmameinu we cannot use any chamar medina as it does not exist.
So it is a very restricted minhag followed by a minority of klal yisroel.
Did Chabad start following this minhag HaGra?
Milhouse
The source is certainly not the GRA! It’s an explicit Ramo OC 396:2.
And yes, on Simchas Torah mashkeh is choviv, as everyone can see — just look around you and see how choviv it is. You say there’s no mitzvah, but the whole Simchas Torah is only a minhag, and a relatively recent minhag at that (less than 1000 years) so how could drinking be a mitzvah? It’s a minhag just like all the other observances of the day. Indeed the Rebbe explains that this is the special maalah of Simchas Torah: it’s entirely minhag, something that we yidden made for ourselves, באתערותא דלתתא.
K
For those seeking a source for the Minhag HaGra: The Torah Temimah (Parshas Bo Ch. 12, 168 s.v. ve’ayen) writes that he heard that the Vilna Gaon used to make Havdalah on Motzai Pesach on beer.
Milhouse
Forget the GRA. And certainly forget the Torah Temimah. It’s a nice chumash and a nice compilation of maamorei chazal, but there’s never any need to look below the line at Epstein’s ploiderai.
Milhouse
And if you see someone using one sink (or even two sinks with a shared drain pipe) for milchigs and fleishigs, and not treating it as treif, you should tell them. Maybe they didn’t realise, or maybe they treat it as treif but someone didn’t know.