45 Comments

• deepthinker

  deepthinker says:
  April 9, 2013 at 12:00 pm
  I debated SAVAGE on his show last night for about 10 minutes (10:35 Eastern).

  The main points I made are as follows:

  1. The City has absolutely refused to do DNA “fingerprinting” test to match the DNA of the hepes lesion with the DNA of the Mohels–WHY?

  2. In the absence of any positive link of this sort, the City is reduced to speculation, based on the fact that one event followed the other, and on statistical analysis of the probabilities that this could be merely a coincidence.

  3. Such a stitistical approach is invalid when you have such a small database of anecdotal cases to work from.

  Agudas Yisroel has filed statistical and epidemiological
  analyses by top PHD’s, refuting the City’s case as a fraud and a misrepresentation.

  This data is avilable for anyone’s inspection at:
  http://brisnyc.com/Statistical_Malpractice.html

  • DB

    Whether or not its been proven, it doesn’t change the risk.I have read online that most cases of infection after Milah are covered up in NY hospitals.We do need a broader investigation to find out the truth.Micheal savage is not a rabbi and doesn’t understand the Halachic aspect,but he does have PHD in nutritional medicine.A Milah wound is a wound like any other and can get infected.I think to much focus is placed on metzitza b’peh, when the cause could be improper treatment after the Milah by the Mohel or the parents.We need to hear from more Doctors on the issue.

  • Peti [gullible]

    DB, why do you blindly choose to believe what you have ‘read’? Is it because you have some kind predisposition against Milah?

    Show me proof that there is a ‘conspiracy’ or ‘mass cover-up’ as you so recklessly state…

    As the caller from the Anti Milah Defamation League stated that the Department of Health refused to do a DNA test of the infection in those reported cases… The DOH themselves are responsible for all this misinformation and slander of Milah – which you so blindly are buying into.

  • Milhouse

    You did well, until he asked you about capital punishment and you panicked and avoided the question, almost as if you didn’t understand the point he was making. Someone needed to tell him straight out that we do keep all the laws in the Torah, and the flaw in his argument is his stupid assumption that criminal penalties in the Torah can be administered by random vigilantes. Someone needed to point out that New York also has a criminal code, but if you or I were to “arrest” someone and “punish” them in line with state law we’d be kidnappers. Only a duly authorised court can impose the penalties in the law, and only after conducting a lawful trial, and exactly the same is true with Torah law.

    And then you start citing the Rambam, and seemed not to even know that he was before germs were discovered and his medical knowledge was 90% superstition. That was a stupid way to go; the Rambam as a doctor is irrelevant. What matters is that metzitzah is an integral part of a Divine commandment.

    The real reason NY shouldn’t ban it is because we will do it anyway. Antiochus and Hadrian and Stalin couldn’t stop us, does he imagine Bloomberg or Cuomo can?!

  • DB

    To#3
    The allegations where made by Rabbi Hershel Schachter of yeshiva university, whose daughter works at New York Presbyterian.I did not want to quote the article because of the site it was on,google it at your own risk.It’s important to note,the cases did not result in death, as he Rabbi reported ,but where all treated.
    I am not advocating banning the practice,only to use your brain and understand the risks are very real and need to be investigated.If in fact it is proven that MBP is responsible,than we will have to rethink the practice.But, to dismiss it all as antisemitism or the like,is wrong.

  • Milhouse

    DB, with all due respect to Rabbi Schachter, his daughter has no knowledge of what happens at any hospital but her own, and even at her own hospital she can say whatever she likes but other people who are in a better position to know the truth deny it, and they are more plausible. In other words, lo mipiha anu chayim.

  • Milhouse

    Anyway, even if the numbers were as she claims them to be, it wouldn’t justify changing anything.

• Inappropriate Title

  The title of this article states that Savage attacks Brit Milah when in fact his comments were regarding Metzitzah B’peh- two completely different things. Metzitzah B’peh is completely unnecessary for a kosher bris and it poses a threat on the lives of newborn babies. People need to wake up and stop resisting change. The risk is not made up. If it effects one baby, that’s one too many.

  • hack a chanik

    I come from a family of ten with 8 brothers. We all had MBP done when we had our bris. We are all B”H healthy.

    My grandfather a”h (father side) has over 100 grandchildren, all had MBP done on them, none got sick as a result.

    This is nothing more then properganda against bris mila.

  • bs"d

    please learn the halocho befor writnig!

  • Milhouse

    Metzitzah is an integral part of the mitzvah of milah. An attack on it is an attack on bris milah. Even if the allegations were true and proven, the risk alleged is far too small to justify any change; the mitzvah is more important than the health of one baby in 100,000 or whatever it is that is being alleged.

  • IBS

    This is absolutely correct.
    Perhaps others should learn the halacha – and not just what it is written in Lubavitch sefarim.

  • Milhouse

    IBS, what has Lubavitch got to do with it? I’m not aware of any Lubavitcher sefer that even mentions it. Not that there would be anything wrong if it was just a Lubavitch thing, but it isn’t, it’s a Jewish thing.

• Lechatchilah Ariber!

  The last caller on the show is a man named Yechiel, who presents himself as a professor. When asked where he is a professor, the caller states in a religious school. Now, for the record, and I hope Yechiel Goldstein is reading this, NO! YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSOR! All professors have undergraduate and graduate degrees, besides a high school diploma, or its equivalent. Yechiel Goldstein, you have no right representing yourself as a professor and making a chillul hashem while you’re at it…

  • Milhouse

    Really? Who says a professor must have all these degrees? In which dictionary did you read that definition? Who decreed this? By what definition is a magid shiur in a yeshivah not a professor? (In any case, semicha is a degree.)

  • Much missed

    I waited the entire show to hear this terrible Yechiel Goldstien guy make a fool of himself and “Hashem”. When he finally came on, I was smiled throughout his entire monologue and conversation. The guy is eloquent and thought out, and an Oholei Torahnick to boot! Impressive! He didn’t hide behind some name like William, and was proud to announce his area of teaching. He made a real Kidish Hashem!

    P.S. According to Dictionary.com, the third definition of professor is teacher.

  • Anonymous

    To #5: Sounds like you have something against Yechiel that you feel you have to ATTACK him. How do YOU know he didn’t get any other degree besides his High School diploma. Are you a part of his day to day life?! (HIGHLY DOUBT IT!) So don’t go judging based on what YOU know! Based on your comment, I am 100% sure Yechiel knows AND understands the Torah and its’ laws better than you!

    #5- there is no end to Torah learning, so keep on learning, then maybe you can get to the point where Yechiel is (in Torah learning) and then you will understand and won’t have anything to argue…

    Let us do all we can to bring MOSHIACH NOW!!!

  • Milhouse

    Not just the third definition. The first two definitions also apply. In what sense is a yeshivah gedolah not a “university or college”?

• lubavitcher

  To #2:

  So the city should be allowed to ban chassidic sects because to be frum, chabad is unnecessary. As a matter of fact, one can be 100 percent frum without being chabad. And while the city is on their ban binge, let the ban Bobov and Satmar as well. Or perhaps all of Orthodoxy besides Modern Orthodoxy should be banned because Ultra orthodoxy is completely unnecessary for a kosher lifestyle. So #2, you see where your twisted logic is leading?

• yossi

  he is 100% correct.

• vic

  The chasam sofer states clear that u may use a tube and there is no need to suck with the mouth on the wound

  • Milhouse

    The Chasam Sofer doesn’t mention tubes. There is one controversial teshuvah in which he gave a heter to use a sponge, in an emergency case where the alternative would be a ban on milah altogether. The Maharam Shick, who certainly knew his rebbe’s position better than you do, was very clear that this was not a general heter.

• interesting

  If you read a yated article on this it says that 25 newborns were found to have gotten neonatal herpes. Of those 25 many were girls or not circumcised. Why on earth did the health department only go after circumcision as a culprit.

• DB

  When the Mohel does it right,there is little chance of infection.However,some Mohels are better than others…

• Go-ds right hand man

  We really don’t care what anyone says hence exists freedom of speech & meela’s gem atria is 85
  An opinion that exists is bris meela is the first example of surgery & possibly until then a sword or knife wasn’t ever used for healing !
  Savage didn’t make it to a bris the other day is his miss, it is a big deal if he is a big guy and he has opinions also !
  What they are aren’t my concern or I would tune in !
  Dropping out isn’t for blood brothers !

• Go-ds right hand man

  Mr. Savage reveals himself as a bleeding heart liberal ! .?!!?! Very disappointing !!!! A real Hymie !! Technology is the antithesis of holiness !!!!
  The commands of go-d are to become a holy nation unto him and represent his will !
  The city of New York isn’t a holy place !
  Go-ds law and will are higher than any places law and will, don’t test go-d !
  As a adolescent in cheder in modern Los Angeles 1980 an artists tune was sung by a classmate
  ” I’m a testtube baby, with the genes that they made me, can’t call my mother for help ! A scientist made me I’ll surely be famous, hangin on a telephone wire ! My name is number one, number one baby ! If I succeed there will be more like me to come ! I’m a testtube baby, I’ll be takin your place in the superior race ! Number one baby !”
  Michael savage you should be ashamed of yourself and admit your guilt, the guilts of your “generation” that include exploitation of scripture and law !
  While your insulting the Babylonian gardens you should also insult Clinton, bush, jagger, and Clinton !

• #2 is right

  We can argue all day about metzizah b’peh, how many babies had it without getting a disease, statistics and evidence, etc. Certainly it is odd that Savage chose to devote a whole show to this issue-since when is a practice performed at brissim a big deal to a conservative talk show host? But the fact remains that he was not attacking bris milah like many people in Europe, but specifically metzizah b’peh. Whether you believe MBP is a health threat or not, the two are still not the same thing.

  • Milhouse

    But they are the same thing, whether he knows it or not. Metzitzah is an integral part of the mitzvah, and an attack on it is by definition an attack on the mitzvah. His motivation is irrelevant; the fact is that he was attacking it, so who cares why?

• Moshe Rbenu

  When this mishugener talks about a potz let him look on the mirror
  In England thy put his name in the terrorists list
  Now makes sense that he is a terrorist

  • Milhouse

    How does it make sense? Whom is he threatening with violence?

• Alex

  Savage is at the top of his game, as usual!
  He is not afraid to speak his mind!

• roch

  oy vey. First of all, Savage is a very angry man so you can’t take anything he says seriously. He’s like O’reilly, only there for the entertainment…..he’s just trying to give his pathethic little show some viability. Please, turn him off, put in a disk of The Rebbe’s Niggunim. You’ll get more out of it…..

• Actually the "professor" made a very well delivered point

  Re being a “a professor of Hassidic phIlosophy”
  Look up the wiki definition which represents the world consensus on its definition

  Professor
  For other uses, see Professor (disambiguation).
  A professor is a scholarly teacher; the precise meaning of the term varies by country. Literally, professor derives from Latin as a “person who professes” being usually an expert in arts or sciences, a teacher of high rank.[1] In much of the world, the title is in most (but not all) cases awarded only after decades of scholarly work to senior academics. In the United States and Canada the title of professor is “typically” (but not exclusively) granted to most scholars with doctorate degrees or equivalent qualifications (typically Ph.D.s) who teach in two- and four-year colleges and universities, and is used in the titles assistant professor and associate professor, which are not considered professor-level positions elsewhere, as well as for full professors.

• I liked the "proffesors" point!

  If the concensus of medical experts proved that mbp was really a danger than mitzad ushmart Daas Torah (orthodox rabbonim on their own) would aser it

  So far no such concensus exists not even close

  I felt he was the opposite of chilul h

  Bec he said he’s striving to be frum and he made very reasonable well articulates points especially if you listen to some of the other well intentioned frummas that call in but Michael failed to properly understand

  • Milhouse

    Actually even if there were a danger, we could not abolish a mitzvah because of it. We would have to accept the danger. After all, even according to its detractors, milah itself is a far greater danger, and we accept that.

• last caller defended charedim very well!

  By pointing out that halacha requires us to follow medical concensus, I think he single handedly made a kidush H! Bec many dont know that mbp has never been proven dangerous by any medically valid study

  • Milhouse

    Yes, he was good, but the fact is that if it were dangerous we would have to accept it and do it anyway. Milah itself is definitely dangerous, and yet we don’t have a heter to abolish it because of “pikuach nefesh”. Only if there is clear evidence of a significantly heightened risk in a *specific case* do we override the obligation of milah.

  • DB

    To Milhouse.
    There is difference between Milah and MBP.True Millah overrides the general risks involved,however MBP can be performed through a tube according to some opinions.The main thing is
    to establish what are the risks and then have a bais din decide.But if the information is covered up or distorted,than a true decision can not be made.

  • Lechatchilah Ariber!

    The last caller claimed to be a professor, when in truth he may not even have a high school diploma! Now for the record: At no point in time does the Mishna, Talmud or Rambam mention that Mezizah has to be B’peh. Yes, they mention the word Mezizah but nowhere is the word B’peh used! All those people claiming that MBP is halacha lemoshe m’sinai are absolutely wrong. Neither the Mishna, Talmud, or Rambam ever say such a thing. When the Mishna or Talmud want you to know that a specific halacha is HLM, it says so clearly. Yes, the Mishna mentions Mezizah, but the Talmud explains that this is only due to a Sakanah and not an Issur. There is no halachic reason why b’peh is any better than with a tube. Bottom line, before listening to any so-called Professors, keep one thing in mind-Ushmartem Meod Lenafshosaychem!!!

  • Milhouse

    DB, the key phrase there is “according to some opinions”. Not according to all opinions, or even most opinions. Who says we should follow those opinions?

    As I’ve pointed out several times, even if we were to accept all the allegations as 100% true, and the numbers were as they claim, the risk would still be far lower than that of milah itself, and especially the historical risk of milah. Just as we are required to accept that risk for milah, there’s no reason we should not accept it for metzitzah as well, since metzitzah is an integral part of the mitzvah, and many poskim do not allow tubes. (See Sdei Chemed for a roundup of all the opinions. This machlokes was huge in the 19th century.)

    Indeed, the risk of metzitzah, even according to the misnagdim (tartei mashma), is far lower than that to which we subject the baby by driving him to and from the bris! That alone should tell you that the whole subject is ridiculous, and the campaign against metzitzah is not being driven by any motive lesheim shomayim, but only by a certain person’s determination to lead the entire frum world around by the nose.

  • Milhouse

    Why don’t you look in Sdei Chemed and see the list of poskim who say it does need to be befeh davka?

• stam a mentch

  savages intentions are solid. he read some horrible things, was appalled and disgusted and cries out in protest.
  however it does seem that he didn’t do enough research, to conclusively attack such a sensitive topic (as he himself called it) it seems that he did not pursue all avenues of research on mbp. but read a few articles, and jumped to conclusions. although in his favor, the vast majority of info online seems to be against it, and click with his view.
  i myself was surprised to hear of different strong and convincing arguments in favor of metzitza b’peh that i wasnt aware of.

• Milhouse

  What a lot of people are missing is that this entire affair is driven by one individual, a so-called rov, who has a decades-long history of wanting to forcibly impose his own halachic views on everyone else.

  This same individual testified in court in order to force a man to trim his beard, dismissing the Tzemach Tzedek’s opinion out of hand.

  He also managed to convince the whole frum world to ditch a centuries- or millennia-old mesorah about kashrus, based on his own alleged scientific research that has recently come under serious question.

• to 39, i am frum today because of Reb Yechiel's wisdom and patients

  clearly, u don’t know Reb. Yechiel G well!! or your bitter about ur life, u have some serious jealousy issues oe something for your good talk out ur anger with a shrink nd, if u did more tora nd mizvis u would have more ahavas yisroel
  we want moshiach now!

• to 39, & 14

  u need help