A leading American Orthodox rabbi, Shmuel Kamenetsky, said that child abuse should be reported to rabbis, not police.
Orthodox Rabbi: Report Child Abuse to Rabbis, Not Police
A leading American Orthodox rabbi, Shmuel Kamenetsky, said that child abuse should be reported to rabbis, not police.
Kamenetsky, the vice president of Agudath Israel of America’s Supreme Council of Rabbinic Sages, said in a speech July 12 in Brooklyn that the abuse of a child should be reported to a rabbi, who would then determine if the police should be called. He made the speech as a search was being conducted for an 8-year-old Brooklyn boy, Leiby Kletzky, whose dismembered body was found the following day in a dumpster and in the apartment of Levi Aron.
Aron was indicted Wednesday in the boy’s murder.
A recording of the Kamenetsky speech in Flatbush first appeared July 17. Kamenetsky was repeating Agudath Israel of America’s official policy banning Jews from reporting child abuse to police, according to the blog.
A representative of the Shomrim, a volunteer civilian patrol in New York, told the New York Daily News that his organization keeps a list of alleged child abusers whom they have not reported to the police. The New York Jewish Week reported that it is possible that Aron may have been known to some in the haredi Orthodox community, but that they did not report him to the police.
“We call upon Agudath Israel of America’s leadership to immediately retract these dangerous statements [by Kamenetsky],” Survivors for Justice, an advocacy, educational and support organization for survivors of abuse and their families from the Orthodox world, said in a statement.
Jose Baez
Because of people like Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky there will be more Levvi Aarons..
Very Sad..
brother from the hood
a outrage and a cover up for former teachers and other ped /perp including a famose school on oeean parkway
...
PULEEZE! Rabbis will only try to work the person through it police will do something about it because its dangerous for peoples lives talking them through it doesnt help they are sick people!
Chaya N.
You know what that means! They will do nothing while innocent children suffer.
no one special
Reporting to anyone but the police raises the issue of conflict of interest that will produce more pain & suffering for victims & their families. More explanation would serve no positive purpose.
yona
“We call upon Agudath Israel of America’s leadership to immediately retract these dangerous statements [by Kamenetsky],”
Disgusted
That is a load of crap and only leads me to believe he’s got something to hide or is covering something up!!!
Mavhil!
Rabbi Kamenesky cannot make a decision on this matter, being
that he himself is connected with a school and is biased in his opinion
For all Torah followers, after what everybody witnessed, it is the best proof and guidance what people need to know and do. Maaseh Rav is a final verdict as stated in the talmud.
declasse intellectual
And, what will the Rabbis do?????? Are they trainned in this area???????And what will be the effect of “I know him or her and they are such nice people they do no such things” attitude be?????And, then there are those who believe still that what occurs inside is noone’s business????
FLOG!
While we want to see justice and deterrance in the
case of child abuse, I kind of agree that getting the
authorities involved should be a last resort, unless a
death occurs, CH”V. Sending a pervert like that to jail is
a death sentence. The other inmates will either beat him
(often to death) and/or give him AIDS. So one must question
if such punishment fits the crime.
HOWEVER, THE PERPRETATOR MUST NOT GET AWAY WITH HIS HORRIBLE
DEED!
An alternative to the authorities would be this, no joke:
If the Rabbis can have somebody knocked off for mesirah, beaten to give a get, money extorted from, etc., then why
not set up our own system of punishment? I say, give the
pervert a nice, painful and excruciating FLOGGING! It’s
definitely worth a try, and I think that should work, both,
for justice and deterrance. If he refuses the flog or repeats
the crime, then hand him over to the authorities.
psychologist
Inexcusable. As a mandated reporter, I attended an Ohel seminar and was instructed that we must, under all circumstances, report any suspicions of abuse to the authorities as a first point of call. Let those who are qualified to investigate the abuse deal with it directly.
SEREL MANESS
R KAM HAS A POINT THERE,THE REBBE TALKS ABOUT MASHPIIM,IT ALWAYS AS IT SEEMS,IT SOMETJMES LAST OF PROPER CHILD REARING,SO MANY OF US COMING FROM A SELCULAR HOMES HAVE FUNNY IDEAS ON CHILD REARING,LIKE DOESN’T BELIEVE IN DISCIPLE,OTHER WISE THE CHILDREN CAN DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL LIKE,SO WE END RAISING ANIMALS INSTEAD,SO IT LOOKS LIKE CHILD ABUSE,THE COPS AREN’T GONNA BE SENTIVE IN THIS ISSUE
Zalmen der Shikker
Any words of condemnation for this “rabbi” that would actually express how I feel about this, would not be approved!
sebag
this guy is an idiot. the rabbis will do nothing! like they have done until now. in any case though, there are already “heterim” out there to report to police (as if we even needed that heter)
Yid
Can someone please tell us what SHULCHAN ARUCH says?
I don’t care what a “rabbi” says.
I don’t care what the american law says.
I don’t care what anybody says.
I only care about what the SHULCHAN ARUCH says.
12
A misnaged
WHAT???!!!!
SO WE SHOULD ACT LIKE THE CHURCH AND NOT DEAL W THIS HUGELY IMPORTANT ISSUES??? IF YOU MOLEST A CHILD YOU GO TO THE POLICE, NOT A RABBI WHO WILL HEM AND HAW….
sheesh
Hes ridicules!
a rodef is a rodef
A rodef is a rodef is a rodef.
mother
I was once in event that he spoke and was really impressed. Sounded like a chosid.
Lost all my respect after that!
thats wrong
rabbi kamenetsky should be fired and/or arrested! you do not withold information about child abuse to any police. you first report it to the police, and then to your rabbi!
mendel
biggest crock ever! If someone were to steal their money, would they just got to a rav? no, i dont think so.
avrum montreal
and the rabbis are going to hide it from the public
whats about closure from the abused?
when rabbis give such a psak they should give some reasons!!!
non sense
this is a very stupid and crazy statement made by who ever this Rabbi think he is, child abuse and all this crazynes SHOULD BE REPORTED to autorities, im sure that if this guy would it be reported before none of these would it happend,
people see all this things and they think that because of “Ahavas Ysroel” this should not be reported, which is very IRRESPONSABLE.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Judy Bandow
it is this type of protectionism attitude that has cause our problem to begun with. Why do people think that child abusers and molesters will listen to rabbis but care nothing for the torah that bans this behavior already!!!
hope you publish this instead
THIS RABBI MADE SUCH A IRRESPONSABLE STATEMENT!!!!!! THIS IS NON SENSE, EVERY CHILD MOLESTER SHOULD BE REPORTED DIRECTLY TO THE POLICEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
READER
This guy is an idiot if he thinks people will listen to him. All abuse should be reported to the police as soon as it happens weather he is a Yid or not. And sorry to say this if the Haredi Orthodox community new about Aron this this tragic murder might not have happen. And Shomrin if you have a list alleged child abusers you should report it immediately
Tova
What reckless advice. This mistrust of the police has to stop; we cannot harbor those who are destroying are children!
Shimon
Horrible! Disgusting! Pathetic! How dare he be so irresponsible!!! This man has no clue of the danger or concept of child abuse. Uch, and then we wonder why our kids are going off….
B H
B”H
History repeats itself
Chazal tell us that there were 2 woeful things about the generation of the Shoftim, (who ruled for several hundred years after Yehoshua’s passing): Woe to the generation that judges its judges…and whose judges are deserving of being judged.
Woe to us for judging the Rabbonim of our generation…and for their frightening lack of awareness that compels every thinking person to judge them.
Yitzchak Mordechai
This is not the way 2 go at all !! Besides there was a case 9 years ago in Los Angeles that the Lubavitcher Rabbanim in LA paskend that yew you 2 go 2 the police. This is the same time when that whole thing was coming out with the Catholic church and ppl were being exposed. Among the Rabbanim were Rav E. Schochet, Rav A. Levitansky Ztl, Rav Y. Stillman, Rav Y. Schusterman, Rav S. Raichik, Rav S. Cumin. These Rabbanim came 2 a conclusion that u have 2 go 2 the city police it as Rav Schochet that finalized it being that he is a posek. So Rav Schwei, & Braun come along 9 Years Later and they wake up this thing in Los Angeles was a Lubavitcch world wide story ok Rav Braun & Schwei were not in the Bais Din yet but its the concept y only these Rabbanim from all Rabbanei Lubavitch worldwide were the only 1z 2 say anything at the time. From all this we see that when it comes 2 messing with young children u go right 2 city authorities. No question Rav Schochet said. so y is it taking all these Rabbanim 4ever 2 figure it out its a no brainer my friends. Thank u
Agudath Israel please stop covering up
Waste of time, he is not going to do anything about it.
Arrest the pedophile, let him get the same treatment in prison what he is doing to our kids.
we have been going to the Rabbis for the past 5000 years, not 1 molester was EVER arrested.
And that is the bottom line
PS if you know of a Rabbi that put somebody in prison, I will retract my statement.
Good luck
Abuse
Report abuse to a rabbi and it goes no where go through the proper channels and report it to the authorities and get these creeps off our streets and away from our children so they can not harm them and mess them up for life
what??
That is crazy.. this goes along the same lines of reporting child molestation…I think a person should for sure call the police..
A mother
Even after what happened to Leiby hy”d, they still talk like this??!! If ANYONE got near my kid, G-d forbid, you bet I’m going to the police! And my rabbi would probably ask me why I waited.
chaim
why would we listen to him? we have our own derech and call the police. There is no cochus with the rabbonim today!
me
i love it when rabbis think they are experts in everything- according to this logic, shouldn’t i bring my car to a rabbi before a mechanic- just to make sure it’s okay with the rabbis, and then when, the car explodes, i can just thank Hashem for his blessings!!
maybe if these “rabbis” had reported levi aron right away, leiby would still be alive.
Get It Together
The Rabbis need to convene and get it together! Enough with the mixed messages!!!
Burn in hell
Rabbi Kamenetzky and his friends should burn in hell with Levi Aron and everyone else who they allow to live with us.
pathetic
wow this rabbi must feel like such a fool now… so according to this article, this rabbi together with all the rabbis he represents can be held acountable for assisting the murder of lieby keltzy, as they were aware that this man was a pedophile and did nothing.
what do the rabbis know.....
A rabbi is an expert in rabbinical studies. Not in sexual or child abuse. We will leave the halachic questions to the rabbonim, and they should leave our children’S safety to the real experts in that field. PARENTS DO NOT BE STUPID, IF YOU SEE SOMETHING OR KNOW SOMETHING, PUT A STOP TO IT, BUT GOING TO THE AUTHORITIES. kEEP OUR CHILDREN SAFE.
so typical
i dont know how this rabbi sleeps at night, knowing that he has assisted hundreds of children getting hurt, emotionally and physically.
@ 2
reread the last paragraph, they were asked to retract their dangerous statements…
Plus in these situations we don’t need the rabbis directive, it is quite clear to any responsible person to go straight to the police.
dovid
Any rov , rosh yeshive , principal , big maher , – who sweeps under the rug and prevents to call the cops
on a child molester , – drop dead now !!!
and after that , sit in hell next to aron levi Y“SH .
You are worst then him .
You have blood of poor Leybele O“H , on your beard !!!!
concerned in MA
I don’t believe I read this! Im MA, it is the law that as a healthcare professional, I am mandated to report cases of abuse/suspected abuse. Not to do so, if found out, could cost me my nursing license. Does the Rabbi fully understand the lifelong emotional trauma caused by such abuse?
May I go so far as to say that the law of averages, being what it is, it would be folly to believe that there are not Rabbi’s who have abused/misused their trusted positions?
Solution
Umm there are countless amount of stories of students reporting abuse to their “Rabbi’s” and all they did is cover it up in order not to ruin the name of the institution, or even in order to to ruin the name of the abuser…
While these respected “Rabbi’s” may be saving the future of their establishments they are ruining the future of countless amounts of young students.
You tell me which is more important?!
not such a wise article.
report it to the rabbi and nothing happens. report it to the cops, and action is taken. its about kids being safe, not about religion.
Reb Shmuel
Clarification.
It would appear what the respected Rabbi meant would be that if you actually saw the molestation occur of course you should report it.
However in most cases one does see it occur. Rather the child comes and tells the parent or you hear about it from someone else.
In this case you have a double edged sword. On one side if it is true it must be stopped before any more damage is done.
If it is not true and you report it, publicize it etc. then you are literally killing the person whom you are accusing.
I would assume that that Rabbi K is talking about the second case. There you must be 100% sure about what you are talking before you proceed. Since this can be damaging if it is not true then you should consult a COMPETENT Rav.
To # 15
The Shulchan Aruch says, Dina D’malchusa dina!
Thinkster
He means report it to the Rabbis THAT ARE ALSO COPS. Not many of them, to be sure, but still.
How can this be justified?
How can Shomrin keep this information from the authorities?
They have a responsibility first and foremost to make whatever information they have to the Police and relevant authorities. Our children and our families and a communities need to know that something will be done if chas v’shalom these horrible tragedies happen, and we need to know that action will be taken and not covered under the rug….How does this Rabbi with a fancy title justify his actions and words? Hows does Shomrin answer their actions?
Rabbi wake up and smell the coffee
how could any reasonable person think speaking to a Rabbi versed in the laws of meat and milk and NOT sexual/criminal behaviour should ever be consulted. Tell me if you broke your leg would you seek the opinion of a dentist ……Oh Hashem your people make me laugh.
Art Skell
Learn from the Church in Ireland – before the cover-up of pedophile Priests was reported attendance at mass once a week was true for 90% of the population (almost 100% of the Irish are Roman Catholic). After it was known that the Church concealed these crimes attendance plummeted to 20%, in some Dublin parishes it is 2-5%. Since we know that there are pedophile rabbis (and ministers and Imams) there will be crimes – if they are covered up I’m sure the Frum majority will say “enough of these criminals, I’m going to worship my own way.” There are dozens of websites devoted to uncovering pedophile rabbis, the stories are horrifying.
ME
CALL THE POLICE….
This is exactly what the Catholic Church does, they say tell the Priest..it needs to be hidden..
The ones who say tell the Rabbi, are the ones you need to worry about. Afterall it is your child..who do you want to TRUST??
A CHer
This is a load of bull!
How do you think these creeps get away with such heinous acts in the first place?! They try it out once in a community, they get caught, they don’t get a slap on the wrist but they do get some attention from the Rabbi! These are the people that ruin our childrens’ lives! These people need to be cleared out of our shuls and off the street. They’ll be better off on Rikers anyways…
shnei-ohr hacohen
we have our own rabonim – who paskened we must report abuse to police.
azkir al hatzion.
Anti-Ostrich!
that statement is just hubris and a bag of crap – it is NYPD for me if anyone plays these games.
Too bad for the kids around these ostriches!
no
someone very famous from this community-a rabbi-princpal in some yeshiva etc etc tried messing with me when he was my counslour over fifty years ago. i reported hem to my father and he took care of him. by the way he past away a few years ago and they wrote how great he was etc he was nearly as great as rabbi elazar beb durdaya etc. you could imagin what i thought reading this.
DaasTorah
First call is to the police. Not to a rabbi. With all respect to the rav, he’s dead wrong.
Shnei-Ohr K.
I dont get – what is wrong in going to the police in the first place to report a crime or a suspected crime.
the police will investigate and justice will be serve if there is or isn’t a crime!
Anonymous Educator
Wake up Chabad!
Merkos Chinuch done not hold any differently…
Yossi
Please remove this article and all the Loshon Hara that follows, some of the comment here are disgusting
http://www.vosizneias.com/8…
Daniel
One of the three Rabbonim of the BD which is the one with experience etc., told, a while ago, Rabbi AL of SG not to report because of chilul Lubavitch. It’s obvious he still holds the same otherwise he would sign together with the other two Rabbonim or give out his personal public statement after such terrible incident.
exch-r
Whoa everybody did you actually hear the speech? For that matter just read the facts as stated in the article!
All he is saying is that before you go to the police, you ought to clear with a rov first. That’s all. Just because you think you’re allowed to go to the authorities does not mean that you are and every case is different and as such requires a shaileh by a rov.
Torah is torah. It is what it is and no one (even a rov) has the authority to arbitrarily decide what is permitted based on whatever emotion one is experiencing at that moment.
Just because you are vaguely familiar with a heter or a R. Moishe, does not qualify you to apply it and a rov should always be consulted. This is the way a life is lived according to the rotzon ho’elyon.
Sara
I do not understand how the responsibility to protect monsters who ruin women and children’s lives forever, are more worthy of protection then the women and children themselves????!!!!!!!
Is that was being a good frum Jew means? To do the MITZVAH of protecting monsters, sex offenders, rapists and child abusers. Rabbi’s like him, do realize by protecting these people, that they are in fact exposing their own women and children to danger.
This is definitely like the Catholics and perhaps worse… This is one of those thing that makes me madder then just about any other issue. I do realize in a religious community, a girl being molested might have people not want to make it public because now the poor kid is ‘not a virgin’ and will not make a ‘good marriage’ or in a boys case, the shame must be hidden. Here they protect the men while endangering the women and children. HOW could any Rabbi shelter someone accused of these crimes and not take on the blame of these actions himself?
Keeping child abuse quiet is the exact opposite of what needs to be done. it is a crime of secrets, of whispered threats and dread and shame. rabbi’s have to stop covering up or protecting molesters, or else they are just molesters by proxy. Yes, that’s what I am calling him, because he would be responsible for every sin done on account of him sheltering the true perp…
exch-r
To Sarah:
OK. Everyone wants to protect women and children. We also would like to protect innocent people from claims of abuse. Why are they any less important? Why is it okay to ruin their lives forever?
The headline is misleading. The rabbi didn’t say to not report crime to the authorities. All he said was to consult with a competent rov before you do. This is perfectly in line with halachic tradition. One is not to be moireh heter b’atzmoi.
from L.A.
To number 32. That’s not exactly what happened. The Rabbis would not recognize the proble until one of the parents of the abused got direction from Rabbi Twersky for Pitts. to call 911. After that the rabonim acknowledged the problem.!!!!!!!!!!
To 64 and 66
64 – the reason the third Rav does want to come out against the molesters is because one of his big supporters was a melamed in OT and was fired because he was a molester.
To 66 your bitterness does not cover up your new life style which unfortunately is one of leaving a frum lifestyle and adopting a completely immoral life. YOU have not even bothered to hide your name.
Therefore your bitterness against the Rabbis is well understood.
Sara
#67, and what Rabbi would want to be responsible for turning someone in to the authorities when actually presented with such a quandary? Rarely is this crime done on video camera to be so 100% sure of what happened. How many times, have you heard stories of rabbonim hushing things like this up, to the detriment of the child involved?
How many times have you heard the phrase “Pas nischt” if a kid even tries to tell someone, a friend of the family has taken liberties.
I am aware, allegations can irrevocably ruin a reputation and tear families apart. I also know that Jewish divorces can be dirty with mudslinging, and with the potential for an Agunah situation, a woman can be pretty much sworn to silence for any behavior, with the idea of a withheld ‘get’ hanging over her head. So, the discussion on divorce and allegations, is very much an awkward separate and sad issue.
Growing up frum and in various communities, I heard personal accounts from friends who were abused in various ways by relatives or friends of the family. Frum people are wonderful and often trusting, especially when they open their homes to shabbos guests. Unsavory people sometimes take advantage of the close community to get close to innocent kids.
I know first hand of a sex abuser was told to leave a community, move elsewhere and nothing more would be said. He abused at least 3 different children there, and who knows how many more, in the new communities he moved to. Those children grew up and had huge intimacy problems in their marriages. Sex abuse leaves a long shadow.
Sex abuse in children is often their word against the abuser. They are often threatened by the abuser. A Rabbi does not have the same investigative abilities that a trained professional would have when evaluating abuse.
I would say to the Rabbonim it would be more in practice with the letter of torah to consult some kind of specialist who has less invested in protecting his baalei-baatim and would be more experienced in finding out the truth of the matter.
The way this has been dealt with thus far, is not effective. Ask around, not really, no need to embark on a full on loshon harah festival, ) but everyone knows stories of someone who has done something inappropriate to little kids. The stories can often be collaborated by people. yet nobody feels they can Do anything about it.
#69, I will never cover up my name, because I do not hide behind the label of ‘anonymous.’ if I believe in something, I will stand up for it, which is more then you can say for many people living outwardly frum lives while covering up bad behavior. There is one part of frumkeit that I will always embrace, and that is kindness, compassion and protecting anyone weaker and sicker than I am. There is no bitterness to the real people out there. This is not about my personal life either, and it is possibly untoward of you to bring it up (not that I mind, I do not but it is not really relevant or helpful.)
There is a common goal here and that is to debate what is wise, when presented with allegations that are so serious, a life will be ruined if the wrong decision is made.
There needs to be no more sexual predators being allowed to get away with this, in the midst of the community. Frum kids are often more innocent of improprieties which make them even more vulnerable to be hurt…
There needs to be a better solution then ‘Ask your Rabbi.’ So many rabbonim graduate from yeshiva and are ill equipped or rely on donations from men, they may not have to turn in to the authorities. How is that not a conflict of interest? Maybe a panel of a few Rabbi’s with experience in this regard, pediatricians and therapists can be put together like a task force.
Something better has to be done.
Phil
“Agudath Israel statement on reporting suspicions of child abuse”
Read more: http://www.cross-currents.c…
Excerpt: “Agudath Israel of America has received several inquiries in the wake of misleading claims that have recently been made about our stance on reporting suspected child abusers to law enforcement authorities. We take the opportunity to clarify our position.”
Joe
If the Rebbe had said it, all of you would accept it as Halacha L’Moshe MiSinai. But since it’s only what’s-his-name who’s saying it, it’s worthless.
This story and the comments posted above are exactly what’s wrong with Chabad.
In all other parts of Judaism, there are Gedolei Yisroel. Many of them. Always have been. Always will be.
These leaders of Klal Yisroel are individuals who are recognized BY ALL – except Chabad – as accomplished in Torah, Avodah and Gemilus Chasadim.
They are our Einei HaEidah, and we live our lives by their guidance.
In Chabad’s view, however, there are no Gedolim. There is the Rebbe and there is everyone else.
Ya, I know what you’re thinking: “Joe is a typical, jealous, hating misnaged.”
I’m really not. I’m just an ex-Lubavitcher, who figured out long ago what’s wrong with your movement, and who discovered that the Rebbe is one of many Gedolei Yisroel.
I’m sure the Rebbe himself would agree with me.
We need more information
Unless he can substantiate his comments with a clear plan of action based on an educated background of knowledge in the serious ramifications of child abuse, I think hes is putting himself in a very unrespectable position. I know he has certain qualifications as a rabbi, and I respect that. But if he does not have specific qualifications as a specialist in child abuse matters, he should defer to those who do. WHY does he want it reported there first? What is the rational? Let’s hear more about it!
No More!
Up until now nothing effective has been done to stop this horrible situation. This must change! Don’t you GET it, Rabbi Kamenetsky? Please clarify your statements, if most people have misunderstood them. And if most HAVE understood that you want a rabbi to be told first, then what is the plan of action you have in place? I do hope you realize that this IS a criminal situation. What would you do if someone were accused of a theft in your community? A murder? Other violence? Bottom line: Unless you or other rabbis are professionally trained to handle all sides of this situation, you should not and can not be the ones to deal appropriately with it. And to Rabbi Shmuel: The accused is not being killed, thank you, but a victim IS! If the accusation proves to be false, then the accused is free! Vindicated! The accuser has to answer to the accusation! And if the accused is found guilty, then he is guilty. Most accusations are found to be based on truth, when the situation is handled by appropriate people and methods. A falsely accused person has no reason to feel anything but relief in he end. He can move on. A real victim is deeply harmed for life.