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Kashrut Certifiers Fight Over Slaughterhouse Turf

The Jewish Daily Forward

AgriProcessors Plant

POSTVILLE, IA — A conflict between supervising rabbis at an embattled kosher slaughterhouse has become public, opening a window into the usually closed world of kashrut certification.

Rabbis who represent K’hal Adath Jeshurun, a small ultra-Orthodox community based in the Washington Heights section of Manhattan, have announced that they will not continue to certify products at the huge AgriProcessors slaughterhouse in Postville, Iowa, because, they said, another rabbi is restricting their access to the slaughtering process. Months of negotiations between KAJ and AgriProcessors fell through at the end of last month.

“We are fully cognizant of the momentous repercussions that our decision entails and can assure that we have not taken it lightly,” the rabbis wrote in a letter to AgriProcessors.

Kosher certification for meat is a complicated process that often involves rabbis from several Orthodox communities taking turns at enforcing slightly different standards of shchita, or kosher slaughtering practice. Members of one congregation will not necessarily eat meat that has been certified by a rabbi from a different congregation.

Because of its size, the AgriProcessors plant requires a great deal of rabbinic supervision; one estimate holds that about 70 rabbis — including slaughterers, or shochtim, and overseers, or mashgichim — help to maintain standards at the company. As a result, a designated head rabbi is placed in charge of certification, and a “super-mashgiach” manages the entire process on the ground. Some organizations, including the Orthodox Union, frequently delegate their oversight of the slaughter to that mashgiach, who is entrusted with upholding the specific standards of each congregation.

Until two years ago, the head rabbi at AgriProcessors was Rabbi Chaim Kohn, who is affiliated with KAJ. Kohn played an important role in the scandal that resulted when People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals castigated AgriProcessors for the practice of ripping out live cows’ throats, which some say is condoned by kosher law.

“Kohn helped PETA to understand that the practice did not violate humane standards,” KAJ president Eric Erlbach said.

Kohn left AgriProcessors shortly after the PETA scandal and was replaced by Menachem Weissmandl, who leads a small community in Monsey, N.Y., known as Nitra, after its birthplace in Hungary.

Here, accounts diverge. According to Erlbach, Kohn was pushed out for reasons connected to conflicts with Weissmandl and the Rubashkin family, which owns AgriProcessors. According to Erlbach, upon taking over, Weissmandl quickly hired a new super-mashgiach on his own payroll and began restricting other rabbis’ access to the slaughterhouse.

“From the time that he took over, we have had less and less control over what was going on, less and less ability to supervise,” Erlbach said. “Our certification is based on our ability to supervise the process. We are not willing to cede that control to Rabbi Weissmandl or to anybody else.”

Weissmandl, for his part, claims that the current super-mashgiach was jointly hired by all the rabbis who are involved with supervision at AgriProcessors, including representatives of KAJ, and that the congregation later made an unreasonable demand: that there be a rabbi with the same amount of authority as the super-mashgiach who would oversee only slaughter performed by KAJ standards and report only to KAJ.

“I did everything possible to have a good working relationship with KAJ,” Weissmandl said. “But the Rubashkins and I felt it would not make sense to have two rabbis running the place.”

KAJ and AgriProcessors began negotiating the issue last October, but on December 28, KAJ leaders sent a letter to AgriProcessors announcing that they would “terminate… supervision of all AgriProcessors’ operations” in April.

AgriProcessors responded publicly with a press release that did not mention KAJ by name but suggested that the company had voluntarily terminated the relationship in order to “consolidate its kashrus supervision” behind the O.U. and Weissmandl. AgriProcessors could not be reached for comment.

It is unclear how much of an impact KAJ’s rescinding its certification will have on AgriProcessors’ sales. The company is huge, and the community is relatively small, although it is possible that the KAJ certification holds prestige for those outside Washington Heights.

“I’d like to flatter myself and my congregation by thinking it’s going to make a huge difference,” Erlbach said, “but I haven’t got the foggiest notion.”


  • 1. Fool wrote:

    “I’d like to flatter myself and my congregation by thinking it’s going to make a huge difference,” Erlbach said, “but I haven’t got the foggiest notion.”

    Great closing line. Erlbach, you have proved that the whole thing is about the money and nothing to do with the standards of kashrus. In that case you deserve the loss.

  • 2. Lubavitcher with Eyeballs on the world wrote:

    What If Rubashkin gets side lined as a ONLY LUBAVITCH Shcehita …. then Rubashkin will lose big time!

    Lubavitch has lost creditability in Halachic issues due to the Moshiach issue in the frum world.

    KAJ brought a honest frum “velt’ Hashgacho to Rubashkin. It legitimized Snags to buy AARONS.

    If the issue of Hashgacha is OPEN for all to see…. I don’t care what Super Mashgiach you get from Monsey …. you have shown there is something to hide….. plus …. Monsey has a track record of Chassidishe Treif!

    We do not know the whole story … but if Rubashkin is betting that KAJ wont hurt their sales? Watch how Empire will rise!

  • 3. An Annonymous Shaliach wrote:

    No. I disagree. KAJ is not the money-hungry organization portrayed. They are a good hechsher, and try their best to meet the standards set by their rabbonim.
    (By the way, I think they are way too lenient)
    But, they are right in this one. How can they agree to maintain their certification on a product when they are not given acess to the shechita and every other corner of the plant.

    We all know there are problems there. We can’t keep burying our heads in the sand. Though Weissmandl is a Chassidishe man, there are some problems with his supervision. His statements and promises do not turn out to match with facts learned later.

    To be honest, though I know many of you will want to stone me for this: I have stopped eating anything from AGRI a few years ago. I kashered keilim and changed dishes. I simply do not trust Rubashkin any more. There are way too many stories coming out of both Postville and Uruguay that conflict with what Rubashkin and Weismandl says.

    It appears they do not have good bodkim, and when they tear out the simomin right after shechita, there is nothing left to check.

    It appears they are NOT checking for penetration of the Rumen to aliviate Distended Abumassem. They are relying of some very obsolete numbers to call it a miut sheAyno motzui, but the BaDaTz reports as many as 30% in some herds. That is not anino motzui and certainly requires checking.

    They are shechting too many animals that are either ebus or too closely related to them. That very animal is ossur, no matter how you shecht it.
    Rubashkin made a statement recently to the effect of “We so not use ebus. We use only 100% certified Black Angus” … oooops Mr. Rubashkin, but Black Angus contains about 30% ebu / Brahman steers which makes them halachic problems.

    We can pilpul this to death, but there are other shechitas which are very careful on all these issues. Why are we making excuses for Rubashkin who is not?

    I want to be assured that a qualified bodek checked after the shochet, and to not want to eat an animal whose neck was gouged out immediately after the shochet walks away.

    I want to know that the animal was checked for old, healed perforations of the rumen.

    I want to know that the animal is a mutar breed to begin with.

    I want to eat food that comes from a company that is open and truthful, and with a rav hamachshir who is the same. Sorry, Rav Weismandl, you do not fit that description. Why do you Claim to be following BaDaTz rules in Uruguay and eye witnesses tell us otherwise? Why do we hear from the folks who have been there, that you are allowing Rubashkin to shecht animals which the Nirbatur Rov rejects? Why are your men not trained in nikur as well as Alle’s men?

    I have read all the counterarguments. But I do not want to feed my body with counterarguments, I want really kosher food.

    I hate to saw this, but no more Agri Processing for me. I now eat Satmar Shechita, or Alle/Nirbatur. I trust the Nirbatur. Every mashgiach who worked for the Nirbatur Rov tells me how amazing he is.. How he really knows what he is doing, and will turn down very lucrative companies if they do not meet his tough standards. They also like the way he trains and backs up his mashgichim.
    And…. he will not allow shechita from shochtim who are away from their wives for months at a time.

  • 4. truth seeker wrote:

    lets be honest, we should not say RUBASHKINS is right. the fact is KAJ is the best Hashgacha, in america. it puts CHK, and the OU, to shame. and the fact that they are puling the Hashgacha means something.
    instead of having C”V another Monsey story, LETS START ASKING QUESTIONS!

  • 5. Shimon wrote:

    I agree with “Fool”.
    The problem is when hashgachas like KAJ make kashrus into a business. It becomes more about the money, power, and politics, then about keeping kosher.
    Many other hashgachas have fallen into this, even our very own OK (a “lubavitch” hashgacha) has decided to make a chalav akum hashgacha (OK-D) for the sake of more contracts and more money.
    Although I am unsure as to what happened in Agriprocessors, I can well imagine the KAJ blackmailing and bullying, using their “termination” as punishment for not giving in to their demands. And in my experience the demands of a kashrus organization often has very little to do with kashrus, and more to do with power, political influence, and money.
    If that is the case (and I may be wrong) Kol Hakavod to Weismandel for not giving in.

  • 6. In The Know wrote:

    I know from inside sources that R’ Weismandel has implemented many changes in the proccess that have immensely raised the kashrus standards. Also, Rabbi Kohn’s mashgiach was fired, because he was the cause of major machlokes among the shochtim and mashgichim!

    KAJ started giving a hechsher to empire, Rubashkins competition. Obviously, the Rubashkins were not very happy about it.

    In the Heimishe velt, Nitra is much more acceptable than KAJ.

  • 7. me wrote:

    It’s really scary. Some of the above posters seem to be very educated in the different aspects of Kashrus, and the different Kashrus agency’s. Honestly, I don’t know the first thing about Shechting animals, and I just buy Rubashkins because I figure their our “aigene” so the Hashgacha must be good. Now I don’t know what to think. What is the average layman supposed to do when he hears all of these crazy stories going around?? We don’t know who to trust!

  • 8. Milhouse wrote:

    By the way, notice that KAJ isn’t taking off their hashgocho until the middle of April, when their current contract expires. That means they have no qualms about the kashrus, or they’d withdraw immediately.

    KAJ are very ehrlich, and they’re not in it for the money, but they must be in charge or they’re not interested in giving the hashgocho. They don’t need the money, and if they can’t be 100% in charge then they’d rather not be there at all. So they’re withdrawing as soon as they can, but without disruption, because they have no reason to suspect that there’s anything wrong. A yasher koach to them.

    Meanwhile the Nitra Rov is just as reliable as KAJ, and anyone who claims otherwise must justify that claim. Why would you think he’s less reliable? The only reason people are attacking him now is because they hate Rubashkin, and since he’s now connected with Rubashkin they hate him too. Three years ago those same people would never have said a word against him. So let them go and eat Satmar or Alle or Perdue or whatever they like. From sin’oh and kin’oh nothing good can come.

  • 9. LA, CA wrote:

    Although, KAJ, for many years, has been a reliable hashgacha, it is well-known and backed-up with many stories of non-compromise, as to the strict kashrus standards of Rav Weismandel. At the end of the day, your average consumer does care about the standard of Kashrus. Weismandell was a great addition to Agri.

    Regarding the “moshiach” issue, please do not mix 2 issues that have no connection one to another.

  • 10. Milhouse wrote:

    “An anonymous shliach”, you are a liar. Glatt un poshut. You are not a shliach, you’re not a lubavitcher at all.

    You give yourself away with these words: “They are shechting too many animals that are either ebus or too closely related to them. That very animal is ossur, no matter how you shecht it.”

    No Lubavitcher, no chossid of any kind, would make such a statement. It’s utter nonsense, there is nothing wrong with zebu. The ONLY ONE to write against the zebu is someone whose psokim are not ongenumen by chassidim. So first off you’re not a chossid. But even someone who’s not a chossid, and wants to be choshesh for that opinion (“kevan sheyotzo mipi rabbenu”) has no right to call it “ossur”, since the opinion has no basis in halacha or sevara.

    Anyone who claims that there’s zebu is “ossur” is a farchnyokter misnagged who deserves to eat treif. And I guarantee that whatever meat you’re eating instead of Rubashkin, mil’maala they will make sure that you get a treife or a nevela.

    When the misnagdim started the “Sheretz Yisroel” hashgocho in order to hurt R Landau, I knew that nothing good could possibly come of it, and I was not at all surprised when it suffered one scandal after another. Because der Eibershter firt dem velt, and meiresho’im yeitzei resha. To eat kosher, after all the care one takes one must also have siya’to dishmayo, and those who fight against chassidim don’t have it.

    The same applies to those who carry on this vendetta against Rubashkin. They are not acting lesheim shomayim, but out of sin’oh and kin’oh, and therefore they have no siya’to dishmayo but rather the opposite, “ve’ato Elokim toridem liv’er shachas”.

    (By the way, at first I thought “ebu” was a typo, but you use it three times, so in addition to a liar and a misnaged you’re also stam an am hooretz. There’s no such animal as an “ebu”. Maybe you’re thinking of an emu.)

  • 12. A Shainer Yid wrote:

    Anonomous Shaliach

    You are obviously not a Shaliach as the chumra of Zebu is from the Chayei Adam.
    No shaliach would care about that.

    You also defend the Nirbarter Rav and Alle. No Shalaich would do that.

    By the way the Badatz of Israel (Horav Shwimmer and Harav Sternbuch) came out strongly against the Nirbarter Rav. Why don’t you mention that?

    Why don’t you write your real name? Yehuda Shain.

  • 13. to Lubavitcher with Eyeballs on the worl wrote:

    You don’t know what you are talking about.

    Lubavitch did not lose credebility. The BaDa”tz of CH did due to their own issues.

    The issue in Monsey had absolutely nothing to do with Nitra.

    Nitra today is one of the best hashgochos. Many other hashgochos use R’ Weismandel as their posek. He is one of the most reliable people today in the kashrus world.

    Many snags and chassidishe who would not touch KAJ will eat Weismandel’s hashgacha.

    BTW BaDatz of Ch does not have their own mashgiach on site. The rely on Weismandel’s mashgiach! So why do we pay extra for shor habor???

    BTW in many communities outside of CH shot habor is the same price as the other hashgochos.

  • 14. Re: Milhouse wrote:

    Everything you’re saying might 100% true but please remember that the internet is a public forum and anything you say can and WILL be used against US…!

    Nisht altz darf men zugen…

  • 15. snagged wrote:

    the reason why there are no misnagdishe shoxhtim and bodkim is because there is no kovod involved in those jobs. The same goes for other jobs in hashgocha. Unless they become the RAV hamachshir.

  • 16. A concerned jew wrote:

    As a average person with not much knowledge of the intimate details of shechita & the process afterwards. what yes what no etc. It is very scary to read what is going on.Kaj has been a very reliable & well known hechsher for many years You hear many horro stories etc. What are we supposed to really believe. On ething that seems to be clear is that Kashrus has become a multi billion dollar industry A huge“business” that creates alout of scary questions &shaaylos.What is needed is & independant review by a pane of chassidishe Rabbonim from different cities etc. ones that have no Affiliation with Kashrus organizations to review all issues & slaughter houses etc.& come up with set rules & standards to be followed including The Alter Rebbe Shulchan Aruch etc. these standards should be machmir & apply to all Hashgochos.In this way all yidden can be assured that everything is being done to ensure we are not possibly eating anything treif or any product with a shayloh on it..Until that happens then there will always be questions doubts etc.

  • 17. tryin to be chassidish wrote:

    I would like to know from all of this one simple thing – what meat should I eat if I want to hold by the strictest standards that I can find – preferebly thats also a Chabad Hechsher.

    I know some people don’t eat AGRI and only eat Feigelstock from Agentina. If we can’t count on the CHK Hechsher, what now??? I’ve heard things about the situation at AGRI that make me not want to eat anything from there – at all. Its sad b/c I think the Rubashkins are amazing people, but kashrus is kashrus.

    Someone who knows told me that the “Shor Habor” meat is the worst quality of all the other hechsharim. Lower than regular Aaron’s.

    I really don’t want to hurt anyone, I just want to know what to eat. In the stories from the Rebbeim, the shochet was the most pios and holy character – like the Bal Shem Tov using his tears to help sharpen the knife. It just seems that it has become more about money and less about kedusha.

    I think this needs to be discussed in an open forum such as this.

  • 18. An Annonymous Shaliach wrote:

    Ah, so just because many of us are eating a particular food, it is not PC to say it is ossur!

    By the way, I am NOT Y Shain, and have not met the man. I do not know if he is a Chossid, or a Misnaged, or what.

    But, why is it that anytime anybody disagrees with the majority he can’t possibly be a Chabad Shaliach.

    That is why I am anonymous.

    Just because I am a shaliach does NOT mean I have to agree with everything Chabad says or does even when we are wrong. I love Chabad, which is why I am still a shaliach. But, I am not blind enough to not see faults.

    I personally know of at least 5 other shluchim who have dumped Rubashkin, and won’t allow their products into their shul kitchens anymore.

    If I disagree with the majority, that is not sinah. That does not mean I am not the Rebbe’s Shaliach. Did the Rebbe want us to just be sheep with no minds of our own? I do not believe so.

    Just because it was rabbonim in the Yeshivish/Misnagdish world that told us to not eat ebus, does not make them wrong!
    Just because someone discovers something that we did not think of first, does not make their opinion and/or discovery invalid.

    It is an insult to the Rebbe’s memory for us to be this close minded.

    We keep calling other people snags and putting them down just because they say something that we do not. How wrong of us.

    And if one of the Rebbe’s shluchim has the guts to speak out, he must be a liar, or a snag.

    Is that what the Rebbe would have wanted Chabad to turn into?

  • 19. dovid wrote:

    Please don’t mix lubavitch into this. This is a non lubavitch schita with the main rov hamachshir not lubavitch. this includes all labels including shor habor.The owner just happens to be lubavitch. not everyone who eats rubashkin is lubavitch, and not everyone who doesn’t is a misnaged.
    now that this is out of the way we can have a normal and fair debate as far as the standard of agri products. and like all products/hashgochos, there will be those who trust it, and those who don’t. Tanya perek ches, one can never be to carful when it comes to kashrus. the most important thing is that everyone try their best leshem shomayim, and daven to have the neccesary saayata dishmaya to be eating kosher.
    and everyone should respect others and their standards, even if its a shliach who comes to the banquet with a mealmart sandwich under Rabbi Gornish hechsher….

  • 20. Been there, seen it all wrote:

    The “rabbis” have been known to be afraid of rubashkin, he always has the last say, and nobody dares to get him upset, lest they lose their job. he makes them work insane hours/days, and what he says goes. to Annonymous Shaliach (true or false) how right you are about the shochtim being away from their wives, and families, there have been things that went on there of which this is not the place to elaborate – you get my point. All this without even going into the specifics of the kashrus “blunders” which go on there. enough said.

  • 21. Stam a Yid wrote:

    Milhouse, what you say is very true and it’s important that these things are clarified. Thank you.

    To an anonymous “shliach”:

    If you are a true shliach and chassid-Chabad, I challage you to identify yourself. If whatever you claim is true you should be proud of whom you are. So please don’t hide be hind the cloak of anonymity when what you say is so controversial.

  • 22. anonymous wrote:

    To all Shluchim

    Anonymous and the one bashing you as a Misnagid and Am HaAretz.
    This is not your private farbrengen.
    I dont understand the need to vent your issues to the public.It is not the way of chssidim to boast how M’hudar they are nor to put the other one down for having his own Chumra.
    Do you have a Rav? Ask a Shaila and do as you told.

  • 23. Milhouse wrote:

    To the so-called “An Annonymous Shaliach”: Yes, you are a liar. If you are a shliach of the Rebbe then you are not entitled to use your own judgment to differ from the Chabad shitoh. You must represent daas hameshaleiach, not your own opinions. That means paskening from the Alter Rebbe not from the Chayei Odom, and it means certain other ways that a chossid thinks and behaves.

    I’ve already pointed out to you that there is no such animal as an ebu. Once could be a typo, but three times in your original message, and once more in your new message, and I wonder what’s going on. Bist stam a yold?

    There is no shayla at all with the zebu. It is a kosher animal, and there is no basis on which to question that. ONE PERSON raised a shayla on the zebu and QUESTIONED whether it should be eaten; nobody can come up with a logical defense of his shayla, but some people, feeling that he is their “rebbe”, don’t want eat it “kevon denofik mipumei demar”. But if you want to consider yourself his talmid then you cannot at the same time be a shliach of the Rebbe.

    The fact that you do raise the issue of the zebu, or even of the ebu, something that no real Lubavitcher, let alone a shliach, would do, proves to me beyond reasonable doubt that you are not who you claim to be. I don’t know whether you are Shain, though your claim not to be him doesn’t sway me, since he would not hesitate to lie. But whether you’re him or not, you’re no shliach, and your other “concerns” need not be addressed.

    To the concerned person at 20:23: Believe me there are things I’m not saying. Ober eppes muz men zogn.

    To “A concerned jew”: What makes you think the Nitra Rov is any less reliable than KAJ? “Kaj has been a very reliable & well known hechsher for many years”; that is true, but the same is true of the Nitra Rov. I can’t think of a reason why an honest person would trust one more than the other. In this case, KAJ are not claiming there is anything wrong with Rubashkin. They continue to certify it until mid-April. All they’re saying is that they’re not happy with not being in charge any more. They can’t work with the Nitra Rov being in charge over them, so they’re pulling out. Good on them, let them go in good health, I have nothing but respect for their position, but it doesn’t affect the kashrus of the meat.

  • 24. Yoseph Yitzchak wrote:

    “plus …. Monsey has a track record of Chassidishe Treif!”

    The guy who sold treif in Monsey was not Chassidsh he was Litvish.

    I also love how people write “you are not a Lubavitcher at all ” or “your not a Chossid your a Snag”

    I also love how people write a message and then they put in their little quotes in Yiddish.

  • 25. baucher from O. T. 73------------76 wrote:


    you are so off target. you just show haterd to your people and to other jews . like using the word snags . plus u knock a whole jewish community of monsey , your a mean person , your not chabad , your are anti chabad and evry thing chabad stans for , repent my son

  • 26. levi wrote:

    To all of you defending/attacking Rubashkin, you have all never even been to the plant. If ther’e not giving KAJ free access, ther’e certainly not giving it to you. so end of story. you either trust them or don’t. and most people will just cotinue to eat what they have been eating before.

  • 27. Milhouse wrote:

    Dovid, Lubavitch is mixed in because the only reason people have this vendetta against Rubashkin is that they’re Lubavitchers. If the Rubashkins had been Litvaks we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

    And yes, one can be “too careful” when it comes to kashrus. Bal tosif is also a mitzvah. If there’s a shayla one can and should be mehader and machmir; but where there is no shayla one is not permitted to make one up. If there is no discernable shayla, but Ploni Ben Ploni once expressed doubts about it, then who you are very much affects how you handle it. If you are a Lubavitcher, then if PBP was one of our rabbeim, or a posek whose every doubt and scruple is tofes mokom by us (such as the Divrei Chayim) then we will worry about it. When the Beis Yosef expressed himself about fish and milk, we take that on, even though the Ramo says he was having what we call “a senior moment”. But if PBP is someone who does not occupy such a position in our world, ve’adreaba, then we will not worry about it, and to one who does worry we say “al titzdak harbei”. Genug gezogt. As someone has already said, there are some things that shouldn’t be made too clear in a public forum.

  • 28. masses of *sses wrote:

    amazing. how people swallow what’s shoveled their way as truth. unless you know the story first hand (and who usually does in this day of “information”?), you know zilch. if you get paid for something you are meshuachd. that’s biblical law. everyone involved gets paid. everyone is meshuchad. all you can do (unless you shecht for yourself or know all the laws and have someone do it in front of you) is select an entity in which you will have emuna and stick with it. And say some tehillim for yourself. chassidim might select a chassid, etc. None of this has to do with pure law, truth, standards.

  • 29. An Annonymous Shaliach wrote:

    ebu, zebu, sorry about the Z.

    It was not only the Chayei Odom. Others, including the Chazon Ish of the past questioned whether this animal should be eaten. I have not learned the lomdus behind it. My objection is simple:

    There are plenty of cattle on which there are no questions! Why should I eat an animal that some think we should not, when it is just as easy to avoid the zebu?

    Other Shechitas are not shechting zebus. The Nirbartur is careful on that point. He explained to me how he works. He is man to be respected, in my humble opinion. My personal experience in kashrus has given me the highest respect for Aaron Teitlebaum and his brother Nochum Efrayim (Nirbartur and Vallava).

    So, does it make me holier than them to say we at Lubavitch do not worry about that? That would be Gayva. We should not hold ourselves out like we are better than the rest. That certainly is not derech Chassidus.

    If a certain chumro is being accepted by many other Chassidim and Yeshivish Yidden, then we should ignore it? That would make us guilty of just what so many people accuse us of, pulling away from klall Yisroel.

    We are not only Chassidai Lubavitch … We are Charieidi Jews, and should act like it. We should not be ignoring what others are accepting. It does not mean we need to PASKIN that way, but it also does not mean we each can’t accept them for ourselves.

    Just because I am a Shaliach of the Rebbe, does not mean I must make havdallah before Rabbainu Tam’s Zman.
    I do have the right to say, “If the vast majority of chareidim feel they should follow Rabbainu Tam, maybe I should wait that extra half hour or so? What does it cost? Why take chances – This is Shabbos?
    So, I drag out Sholosh Seudos, begin to bench about 5 minutes after the Geonim zman that we ”officially“ hold. Go to the bathroom, kill a little time, smooze with a few baal habatim on my way to the front, daven Maariv slowly. By the time we finish Shmoneh Esray it is Rabbainu Tam’s zman, the 72-minute version (not the more chomur 90-min one).
    Maybe this does nothing. But it does not hurt anyone.
    Now, just because the majority of Chabad does not do this, does this take away my right to do this? I do not wish to take a chance and be mechallel Shabbos. The Alter Rebbe DID paskin with Rabbainu Tam. AM I forced, just by being a Shaliach to take the Kula of the siddur, which is unclear if it was a note or a psak?

    I do not drink NY water without careful filtering. Does this invalidate my shlichus?
    Derech Torah means learning and wanting to keep the Torah, and following the halachos of the poskey hador. Sure when our Rebbe was here b’gufo, it was one thing. But to refuse now to look at anyone else’s psaks, and toss them aside just because we did not do that before the Rebbe’s histalkus is not what I consider remaining part of klall Yisroel.

    To respect the opinions of other rabbonim and poskai hador, who have ossured something after The Rebbe’s Histalkus, is not wrong.

    I can be a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe and not make havdallah until 72 min. I can be a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe and not eat Shor Habor, or anything from Rubashkin. I can be a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe and prefer Satmar or Nirbatur Shechita. I can be a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe and not eat a zebu.
    I can be a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe and not drink Crown Heights water.

    If one is a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe, that does not mean he must act like every minute of his life is B’Dayeved.

    I can be a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe and prefer to daven slowly.

    I can be a Chossid and Shaliach of the Rebbe and walk a man to the sink and have him wash his hands BEFORE putting tefillin on him! (if we are near a sink) Does this take away my shlichus?

    Does respecting thoughts of other of today’s gedolim invalidate my shlichus?

    Today’s gedolai hador ARE outside of Chabad/Lubavitch. This does not mean they are to be ignored. If we ignore today’s gedolim and poskim then we have pulled ourselves out of klall Yisroel, and our detractors are correct. (God forbid)
    To say: ”If you are a shliach of the Rebbe then you are not entitled to use your own judgment to differ from the Chabad shitoh.” is to be closed minded.

    I am entitled to my opinion. And, I believe if I think that if the Rebbe were here B’Gufo today, he would at least look at these things, then I have the right to be machmir. In fact, even when the Rebbe was with us, it was not wrong to daven slowly. It was not wrong to eat Satmar Shchita.

    If I will not drink a certain popular brand of vodka because other (non-chabad) rabbonim have a question on it, does that too invalidate my shlichus?

    Being the Rebbes Shaliach does not make one a robot.

  • 30. To Mr. Anonymous ShAliach....Ha Ha Ha, wrote:

    “In fact, even when the Rebbe was with us, it was not wrong to daven slowly. It was not wrong to eat Satmar Shchita.”
    What????? Which planet are YOU on?
    This just says it all “it was not wrong to eat satmar shchita”????
    that just says oit all, your background si black and white to anyone out there, you might wnat to consider yourself a shliach in YOUR world , but in Olam hoAsiyoh hagashmis, sorry too much of wehat you wrote shows your igorance of Lubavitch history, Lubavitch customs and their REASONS, I like the way you try to throw davening slowly into the debate over here, nice (shtech!) But that also shows str8 where your coming from, surely not from OUR educational institutions, maybe you LIVE near a shliach, maybe you DAVEN by a shliach, maybe you SUPPORT a shliach, but one thing i know for sure, you aint know Shliach, I know from certainty not from you Chumros, but from what your chumros are, and your whole “shtell”, but i aint gonna waste my time on you, wasted enough already, whatever i say aint gonna change your baloney stories.
    Just a few quick facts, Re.the Maariv issue, OUR Rebbe happened to be MEDAYEK to daven maariv EARLIER, and not to wait to R”T’s zman, maybe your better, it’s always good to be Machmir, it’s never Ch’v wrong, but Lubavitcher Chassidim mostly follow what their Rebbe did, Mr. Shaliach, Re. Davening slowly, I think that originates with Chasidim (the early ones – Talmudic times), and then in the past few hundred years that custom was renewed AGAIN by CHASIDDIM, so that realy says your background, (by bringing to the fore, an issue which others try to use as a tool to make fun of Lubavitch – you sorta’ realy give it away) drink coke try again, and Re. the Satmar meat issue, sorry you seem way too ignorant of Lubavitch history, to even be considered to go on the waiting list for shlichus, so sorry if your that clueless, goodbye charly, your nobody to talk to, and that ends basicaly the conversation. Kol tov, and keep on eating your Shevach SATMAR meat straight from monsey (special overnight FEDEX)!

  • 31. Shliach wrote:

    TO anon SHliach if you where a shliach
    A. you would use the word lubavitch not chabad.
    B. You would write SHliach Not SHaa Liach
    C. you speak of the rebbe in third person and not like unser tatte

    So shimon hakofer an imposter like you wouldnt last 5 minutes in Lubavitch
    and if you are a shliach shame on you you dont deserve the title

  • 32. shliach wrote:

    TO anon Shliach your a real genius after we tell you a chossid would not qoute the chqayei adam you counter with The CHazon ISH are you kiddin????
    do you know anything at all about us???

  • 33. TO MASSES OF ............... wrote:



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