Rabonim and Mashpiim to Rosenberg: “You Were Never Empowered to Bring Destruction on the Community”
A group of well-respected Mashpiim, Rabonim and Baaleh Batim got together and sent a letter to each of the Rabonim of the Zabla Beis Din and warned them of the ill effect a poor decision may cause to the entire community.
The group included Reb Yoel Kahan, Rabbi Pinchos Korf, Rabbi Avrohom Gerelitzky, Rabbi Berel Levin, Rabbi Shmuel Heber, Avrohom Barber and Shimon Barber.
In two letters, the group makes very strong assertion and delivers very stern warnings to Rabbi Avraham Rosenberg, reminding them that only two parties signed on to this Din Torah, and these parties represent themselves and not the community of 3000 voters, and that any decision the Beis Din renders according to Halacha may not effect a third unrelated party adversely.
In their first letter they raise the issue of the fact that the Beis Din violated its own ruling in allowing a new candidacy to be submitted a mere ten days before the elections, and the candidate not being 40. The letters further stress that the community would have never fathomed that a man without Semicha would pose himself as a candidate for the position of a Rov, and when the Beis Din allowed him to run the community naturally assumed that his rabbinic credentials were in order.
In their second letter they were much more candid, calling the entire elections a ‘Mekach Taaus’ [mistaken transaction], and that R. Yeshaya Broin was intentionally deceitful in producing a letter from Rabbi Tzinner and posing it as Semicha, a fact which Rabbi Gavriel Tzinner vehemently contested stating that it was merely a letter to help strengthen the study and teaching of Torah, but never was it intended as Semicha.
The letters continue and raise the issue of Simush, which R. Broin does not possess, after working in a tiny community in Sydney where he never dealt with Rabbinic issues such as Dinai Torahs, Kashrus, Gitin and Kidushin, Mikvohos.
The letters conclude with the demand that the Beis Din stops dragging the situation which they created out, and give its answers quickly.
too little, too late???????
Excellent! But why wasn’t this done immediately after these “elections”? Why does everything take so long? Months later, it is much harder to get this fraudster out because silence = compliance.
Crown Heights is in a sorry state, both B’gashmius & B’Ruchnius. We have no leadership, not in secular matters & quite obviously, not in religious/spiritual ones either.
Is it surprising our youth are disillusioned & don’t respect Rabbonim? We are a laughing stock in the frum veldt and within our own neighborhood, everyone thinks this whole scenario is a total joke…apart from the Braun-Hendel faction.
Rabbi Bogomilsky (whom I personally don’t like, by the way!) is the only man for the job. He is clearly well-qualified & most importantly, he lives here. He understands all the garbage that goes on on a daily basis and I believe he will be an excellent chaver of the Bais Din. He doesn’t bring any bias or mishegass to the table.
No more elections, no more prevarication. Install Rabbi Bogomilsky now so the Beis Din can get on with its business. It’s unheard of for a community like ours NOT to have a Beis Din!
At the same time, let’s get rid of Rabbi Rosenberg. He hasn’t made any sound decisions. If you hire a contractor & he never gets it right, you don’t put good money after bad, you find someone else. Rabbi Rosenberg may have had the best intentions & worked very hard, but obviously he didn’t do a good job if he couldn’t sniff out Braun’s lack of credentials. He didn’t even check on his Semicha! Would you go to a surgeon who wasn’t an MD? And once you found out, wouldn’t he be fired? Yet this non-Rav is still considered for the job! At $150,000 a year!!! I’ll do it for less & I have the exact same qualifications.
What are we, a bunch of mindless fools who can’t think for ourselves? Is this what the Rebbe wants? That we should just silently allow this community to be overrun by a few bullies?
WikiLeaks
very very strange that this big Dayan from monsey is not acting with line of HALOCHO
i would consider this big DAYAN as GANGSTER NOT A RABBI
NO BRAINER
and whata you saying should have been done for the other “3000” families??
croina
theres some yetzer hara stuff going on, and its way too powerful. If some of these people had yirat shomayem, they would not have let it get too deep. so sorry for them, and for all of us here on planet World. HaShem yerachem, what are our children supposed to think of all this, does anyone care about the kids?
Speak truth to power
Thank you all for speaking out.
Y. Cohen
I was in boro park last week and was so embarrassed when people were talking about the new rov in ch with no smicha.
A non Lubavitcher GAON comes to our community and makes a compelete laughing stock from us without even coming out with an apology ?!?
We Lubavitchers should know better. Our rebbeim said many times “unzerer zibburis iz bezzer…”
This is a classic example of how true this is. (Not that we need examples)
Crown Heights Resident
An open letter to Harav Yoel kahan Shlit”a:
All the previous elections that the Rebbe instituted and supported in Crown Heights were inclusive and were MECHAYEV the entire Community whether a person voted or didn’t. The Din Torah wasn’t between the people of Rabbi Schwei and the people of Rabbi Osdoba, it was between the Rabbanim themselves. They were only REPRESENTED by their people. The elections of Rabbi Osdoba, Rabbi Schwei and Rabbi Braun carry the same equal weight. Bimchilas kvoidoi you taaneh has no merit. The elections encompassed the whole entire Community, you can’t come now and protest after the fact. Your faction put up a candidate and the election was fair and square. Unfortunately for you, he lost. As to the smiche issue and the smiche issue, some of the Rabbanim voted in in the past election had regular smiches similar to Rabbi Braun’s smiches and were lacking in shimush as well and got shimush on the job.
Bechol Hakavod Haraooy
Toishav Hashchunah
To #5
We Lubavitchers should know better. Our rebbeim said many times “unzerer zibburis iz bezzer…”
Where did any of our Rebbeim say that.I know that it gets thrown around at farbrengens but can you provide any sources?
I doubt it- because there are none .
Pesach Sheina
#1 – there is no such thing as too late, there is always a Pesach Sheina and better late than never!
Thank you Rabbonim for speaking up for those of us who can’t speak for ourselves.
To # 7
Its actually in the Rebbe Rayatz’s sichos. I beleive its printed in Sefer Hasichos 5704 or thereabout.
To #7
In Lekuttie Diburim Vol 1 page 10, the Frierdike Rebbe says in the name of his father the Rebbe RaShab: ‘Es iz mir besser a Neveler Katzav fun a Kremenchuker Maskil”.
Its along the same lines, an unzere zibburis…
The actual zibburis vs. ideyes comment is printed elsewhere in the Frierdike Rebbe’s sichos. I think it was after Tav Shin.
Remmmeber, just becasue YOU didnt see it, does not mean its not printed.
No Ferry Tales
So much for the platform of clarity and openness that Reb Broin promised to run under. He is a farce, a lie, and the only reason he got the 80 votes more than Rabbi Bogomilsky is because of people falling in love with the idea of “young leaders”.
This young leader, who is 39 years old, which is a violation of the original ruling on its own, whoowed potential votes who voted similarly for Zaki and Yossi in the Vaad elections.
Knowing what we know today:
• Broin leaked a letter implying he has semicha from Rabbi Tzinner – which he did not
• Broin saying that he really does have semichos, but is scared to produce them because people will ‘pressure’ those rabbis to rescind them too.
• Broin now showing semicha from his father, who already told two confidants that he does not know if his son has semicha.
• Broin now showing semicha from Rabbi Telsner, who at the Kinus hashluchim said he does not know if he has semicha.
I retract my vote [yes I voted for him].
Smicha is not an option, make fun of our [my] Chabad semicha all you want, but it’s a pre-requisite and he does not possess it. End of story.
All I see here is a mousy little man, who is scared to confront an issue, a man who sayed ‘have many semichos’ but is petrified of showing them, I see here someone who does not stand up to public scrutiny, and finally all I see here is a person who is not fit to play any role in leading this community.
Cma
Who are these people who claim to represent “toshvei hashchuna”? How dare they speak in my name? They are self-appointed representatives which makes their whole argument hypocritical.
Amerikaner
Democracy in action!
#7
#7 ur absolutely ignorant and way too sure of yourself and #8 you sound like a serious bt when you say “pesach sheina” what the heck is sheina?? such is how it is is said “PESACH SHENI” or however you wana spell it
Shmuli
No Shimush in Gittin and Kiddushin???
I assume this means that only people in the U.S. get married with kosher Gittin and Kiddushin and therefore he probably never had a chance to officiate at a wedding.
Seriously, I have no clue how they got R’ Pinnye Korf to sign, but I’m sure the other signatories were only too happy to sign against a Rov who supposedly says Yechi.
I also plan to sign Pashkevilin when my beard turns gray because there are really two ways to become a Mashpia. Firstly, by actually learning and teaching Chassidus, and secondly, by signing Pashkevilin. Option 2 takes no self-work and is so much easier!
P.S. Funny to mention that respected Baalei Battim signed the petition. I believe the last Sicha published on the subject said that ‘Daas Baalei battim Heipech Daas Torah!’
We need you in sydney
Rabbi Broin is doing great in sydney ,
He must not leave
The whole community will loose a mashpia
he is good for the job he’s doing in sydney
please convince him to stay and not pull outhis 11 kids from cheder who have a great chasidishe influence on other kids .
Hisextremely popular farbrengens with the Tzemach Tzedek shul community is in very much need , his shurim in halacha between mincha and mariv is a very important project , instilling yiddishkeit to the tzemach tzededk community in sydney should be the focus of Hamashpia Broin, not Crown Heights , Its a big mistake who ever thought of this to distroy the ruach in sydney
Dovid Chaim
These fights diminish the want to vote in ch elections. it seems that there are people in ch who want a certain candidate over another and will do what they can to get him in, regardless of what the vote outcome was. why should a young man come out and vote again and again in what he perceives to be farce elections? so lets say Rabbi Braun won’t come to CH to be the Rav because you made a mockery of him, but then again neither will your children come out to vote again because you have made a mockery of their vote.
What will be?
All this for nothing…
Even after the Zabla there won’t be peace…
What is wrong with us, can’t we ever work out our differences?
Chaim Tovim
Let’s get Rabbi M Bogomilsky installed as rov asap and get this fraudster back to Sydney asap.
Let’s kibosh the entire yechi thingie and get our community back to normalcy.
Hopefully this will bring the Rebbe nachas on high and hasten the coming of Moshiach.
Yesh Li Rav
Osdaba did not have Dayonis when he was elected, but got it after the elections. I heard that after the elections the Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Piekarski told the Rebbe that Osdaba does have have Yodin Yodin. The Rebbe told Rabbi Piekarski that he should not paskin shayolos in Choshen Mishpat until he gets Yodin Yodin.
Rabbi Braun could get smicha after the elections, whether osdabama agrees or not. Until he gets the offical smicha he just won’t paskin sholis. We waited long enough. We could wait another few weeks.
Enough
Broin has to be a fool to want to still come here. Just because he failed in Sydney, doesn’t mean he is good for Crown Heights. Tell him to look for a job that he is qualified for.
to # 10
To # 10 what you write from likutey diburim is not a makor for “unzer ziburis… because as you can clearly see in likutay diburim, ”es is mir tayerer.. comes in connection with the avodas hatfillah and learning of the chasidim in nevel, (even the katzav) this the F”R says in the name of his father is more precious then a krementchuker maskil
to number #7
this is a direct quote from the Rebbe to Reb Nissan. Igros
Kodesh vol 9 page 23
Feivel
To #10
My questions is did the Rabiem actualy say it or it just a chasudisher saying and were its printed.
The qoute from Lekuttie Diburim Vol 1 page 10, the Frierdike Rebbe says in the name of his father the Rebbe RaShab: ‘Es iz mir besser a Neveler Katzav fun a Kremenchuker Maskil”.
Is about a lubavicher maskil (not haskasllah – apiksores)of chasidus versus a real although pusheter chosid or in other words LUBAVICTH VS LUBAVITCH
In no way is this similar to our ziburis… which is Lubavitch vs the rest of the world
Milhouse
#7, you’re an am ho’oretz and an idiot. An am ho’oretz for not knowing, and an idiot for challenging #5 in public, where your ignorance would be exposed, and for imagining that because you can’t find it it doesn’t exist.
This pisgom is mentioned AT LEAST 5 times in the Rebbe’s igros (vol 3 #673, vol 7 #2203, vol 9 #2641, vol 14 #5047, vol 15 #5336), each time as a “well known saying” of the Frierdiker Rebbe. It’s also in Likutei Sichos vol 27 page 327.
Am Hooretz
OK guys, relax, thank G-d the Rebbe knew that such a bunch of ignoramuses like you will have no shame to display your am-haaratzus in public (of course under the dark cover of anonymity), but if you had just a little seichel you would know that a tiny search in the mafteiach of the hundreds of chasidus seforim you could find it without sweat.
Better yet if you would at least use the internet like a jew who knows the real purpose of the creation of the internet, you would know that most of these seforim are available online and you could find them at otzar770.org with a small search.
Enough with my pompous mussar….
Here are a few places in igrois koidesh where the Rebbe writes clearly in the name of his shver, the frierdiker Rebbe; “unzere idis iz besser vi zeiere ziburis”:
Vol. 3, p. 371, 13th of av, 5710, letter 673
Vol. 7, p. 345, 23rd of av, 5713, letter 2203
Vol. 9, p. 23, 8th of iyar, 5714, letter 2641
Vol. 14, p. 284, 17th of teiveis, 5717, letter 5047
Vol. 15, p. 11, 5th of nissan, 5717, letter 5336
And i’m sure that someone who is less lazy than me will find more.
Start learning and you’ll know something.
Toishev CH
These letters are brilliant – they were definitely written by Reb Yoel.
Webby, You missed a crucial point in your synopsis – The community was not a party to this Din Torah and are therefore not obligated to abide by any ruling that was handed down. This Beis Din has no jurisdiction on our community and any Psak in this Din Torah is only for the parties involved – not the community,and therefor cannot adversely effect us.
Gedaliah Goodman
We already know that these guys who wrote these letters, and who
they might recommend, have been in C.H. for a VERY long time. They have not ever been able to do anything to help the community. What
is wrong with this community? Who would even consider WHATEVER they say or write? It’s obvious that either nobody really cares, or
they really care about machlokes, and that’s all, period. Who is
this guy Rosenberg? Why was he chosen? It appears to me that it’s a
raiah(proof) that the community of C.H. doesn’t have anyone in the
whole worldwide Chabad-Lubavitch community that they would trust or
who is capable of properly running an election, or anything else for that matter. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make
him drink. If you can’t drink from the Mayim Chaim, the Sahm Chaim, of the Holy Torah of Melech HaMoshiach, then be like a horse
and don’t drink at all, because the other Torah is the opposite of
Mayim Chaim, it’s as we see, Sahm Maves.
Shventziyaner
It is gratifying to see the ziknei hamashpiyim and several chosheve ballebatim openly demand an end to this non-semichah nonsense.Hopefully, it will be resolved in the near future.However these same mashpiyim and klal tuer need to finally have a confrontation with the sickness that threatens to destroy Lubavitch from inside and withouti.e.the mesugayes known as meshichizm.It has brought almost universal scorn from the rest of the chassidisher velt and at the same time is the cause for great confusion among our teenagers and yungeleit.THE POWER OF THE MESHICHISTN COMES FROM ERLICHE LUBAVITCHER CHASSIDIM BEING UNWILLING TO CONFRONT THEM OPENLY. Perhaps the daas hakohol in CH has finally begun to shift in a positive direction.
Meshuchad but not meshumad.
It is amazing that even at this late point in time, there are commenters here who will diss the authors of this letter. It is inconceivable that someone (a Lubavitcher chossid) should not respect at least one of the signatories.
This in itself indicates why/how such a fraud was perpetrated. If the theology of Chabad can become a fantasy-trip (meshichisten) then anything goes. The become Anarchists calling everyone else anarchists. Beemum shpoissel…
One point people tend to miss (raised by one “Donald Rumsfeld” commenter here?): If Rabbi Rosenberg does not make an immediate and terse statement, that he and the Zabla were mislead, and the elections are not officially invalidated, then you don’t need Sherlock Holmes to come in and find if this is not the result of some bribery. You can try and figure that out alone.
If in fact such a terrible behind-the-scenes/under-the-table act did occur, then it is “Lav achbera ganev…” (It is not the mouse who steals, it is the hole in the wall that let him in.) Meaning: Do we have such a person in Crown Heights who would slip some shoychad to get what he wants? It is difficult to believe – but if true, he should sponsor a new round of elections (there was an Israeli candidate, and people need a choice if we are to “get over this”), or a campaign to declare that as of the date of closing nominations there was only one nominee. That nominee wins.
TOSHOV HASHCHUNAH
to no 7
BRAUN HAS NO SEMICHA AT ALL. HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLE COMPARE HIM TO ANY OTHER ROV. HOW CAN YOU SIMPLY SAY THAT HE HAS SNICHA LIKE THEM. HE HAS NO SMICHA AT ALL
TO #18
I love your philosophy – lets step on the other guys head in the name of giving the Rebbe nachas.
Bogomilsky ran in attempt to help the entire community and facilitate sholom. That has nothing to do with the “yechi thingie” as you call it, and if he were to become a rov, I feel he would serve the entire community, “yechi thingie” or not.
Disgusted
U know what braun was / is the machloikes roshi in australia and all said he was good 2 get him ouyt of there and bring his c*** to CH
mvh
#16, Shmuli, so are you claiming he *does* have shimush in kidushin and gittin? Really? What makes you think so? Was he involved in these areas in Sydney?
And you think the signatories of this letter got their position by having grey beards? Is that what you think of Reb Yoel, for instance?! You ferd.
Avrohoms slave
when Avrohom avinu sent eliezer to bring a shiduch for his son Ytzchok and eliezer asked maybe the girl wil not be willing to come what did avrohom avinu answered him ?
my son is blessed and your coursed ???
is that so ?
damesek eliezer who was one of the biggest talmidei chachomim who was the teacher to interpert the torah to the world is he coursed ?
i guess avrohom was the first racist and yes yes YES
ours is the best and now we see the biggest DAYAN from monsey is …………
IS THERE ANY HOPE?
the whole idea why we got rosenberg was to help make peace. while we all in c’h sat and hopet that with his greatness he will be the outsider that can bring about SHOLOM. We where all mislead. what he did was let them both fight and see who wins. but thats not peace. the easy way out would to allow 3 more robonim to run so this way R.O and R.S will not be the foccos any more and be able to a split in the coomunity and they will be rather a minorty. but he took it as a regular din torah not as to make peace. so the whole din torah is a big joke. we had an optunity and was blown away. what a shame. WILL WE GET A SECOND CHANCE IS THERE STILL HOPE THAT THE BAIS DIN WILL SE THE TRUTH AND MAKE A BETTER PESAK
to 17
You’ve convinced me. He indeed should stay in Sydney.
TOISHAV
very well done, but we need more signetures then that to show the zablo rabbonim that we mean a true “machaa”. just as they themselves stated in thier psak about why they passeld the ellections of the three rabbonim, that it was all because there were peaple that made a machaa right away. “ma she’ain kain” about R’ shwei -which there where PLENTY of “ir’urim” brought up about his ellections at the din-torah- they did not passel his position as rov for the reason that there was no machaa made at the time.
in that light we should indeed collect a lot more signetures against this fruad made on this holy shchuna.
Umesaimim b’shaloim!
TO #21:
You know who said “yesh li rav”, seems like your words are coming from that source…
Yitzy Abrahamson
braun is smart enough to get smicha in a very short time – then why do most bochurim 23 years and older have smicha and he doesn’t?
either he’s very lazy and didn’t get around to it for the last 18 years or:
he thinks so highly of himself that he never needed to get smicha.
so either he’s lazy or missing basic Bitul.
do you need to have one or both to be Rov in CH?
mvh
#17, how can he be a chassidishe influence on your children, now that they know what a fraud he is? How can they look up to him any more? Surely his entire effectiveness as a mashpia has now been destroyed. His foolishness in pretending to a position that was not for him has rendered him unfit even for his previous position, venimtza kereach mikan umikan.
xyz
This blog and its commentators show why Chabad is considered by most of klal yisroel to be ziburis shebeziburis.
Sadly you have very few quality talmidei chachomim and rabonim and when you need one you have to get from the outside. Just check out what percentage of roshei yeshivos and rabonim (who can truly learn – not the Chabad House social workers) studied in Chabad mosdos and how many studied elsewhere.
How come Chabad hasn’t produced a single person of the standing of Rabbi Rosenberg? Or rabbi Braun?
I don’t know if Rabbi Braun does or doesn’t have semicha, but does anyone doubt that he has teh knowledge to get one withing 24 hours?
The man is a huge Talmid Chochom and a genius to boot. He comes from a long line of prominent rabonim and would be qualified to be a rav in any kehila beyisroel – not only in a faction-driven machlokos-fueled troublespot like CH.
The language used here by some of his opponents shows that calling them ziburis – would be a compliment
Rabbi Mattis Kantor, Eastern Parkway, NY
1) What is there about the word (and act of) “fraud” that some people do not understand?
2) There are people saying (or screaming, judging by their language) that any questioning of Braun’s appointment and position is just sour grapes in the mouths of sore losers.
Azoy? Who are the sore losers? Those that are saying “fraud was committed”? Or those who were caught red handed (and/or their supporters) and are hiding behind the empty accusations (actually an empty “slogan”)?
What are they saying? They are accusing those who see and comment on the truth as being sore losers? Is there a bigger sore loser than a fraudster caught in the act before the job is finished? Are these the ziburiss in our midst? Can we still claim it better than idiss… ?
3) The following might serve as an excellent question in a new (much needed) high-school subject called “Clear Thinking.”
“Is the following scenario fraud or is it not.
Answer Yes/No. No sentences. (No slogans.)
A document was presented as a smicha certification, signed by one of the most respected poskim in the USA. That posek and respected authority, has stated clearly and categorically that the document was not a smicha. He gives a few markers as to how that fact is verifiable (it has no date; it differs from the specific wording he always uses; it was not written by him but by Braun himself.)
Is the presentation of this document by Braun fraud, or is it not? Y/N
4) It has become immaterial whether Braun can or can not produce a smicha from elsewhere. Someone who committed a high profile public fraud would be automatically evicted from a beis-din in no time. It is like a Kayin-stamp on the forehead.
5) Now suppose that Rabbi Rosenberg, the Vizhnitzer Illuy, would certify the election. Besides raising eyebrows, as to it being strange, it would be rich with exceptional suspicion. Given that he charges such high fees, and is thus an oihev ess hamamoin…
6) Even in the remote possibility that Braun comes here as a dayan, how would it function, when the majority of intelligent adults either suspect or outright accuse him of fraud. The Kayin-stamp uses un-erasable indelible ink.
Ulesayem betoiv:
Experienced divers and swimmers know, that when caought in the spinning vortex of a whirlpool, you don’t fight it, but you relax, let it pull you down to the bottom of its spin, and exit to the side. (A similar technique has been discovered with quick-sand – but without going under.)
Chassidei Chabad, be aware that we have reached the very bottom, and we need now to exit from the side and rise to the surface.
An Inconvenient Truth
No matter how many times it is stated, written or printed, the fact remains that Rabbi Braun was voted in by a majority of CH residents.
And all those saying “Let’s just nominate Rabbi Bogomilsky and get on with this” seem to have issues dealing with reality. Please face the fact. The majority of CH did not want him, and actually, had there been another candidate, may have voted someone else over Rabbi Braun too, but enough of this. The people have spoken. Rabbi Bogomilsky lost the election.
to xyz
Unless you are R’ Braun yourself who needs to put everyone down, hoping that someone will buy into your greatness and our desperation for an ungarisher to come to Lubavitches rescue, I put together a short list of world class Rabbonim & Geonim that come to mind without any research.
In which non-Lubavitch Yeshivos did these Rabbonim & Roshei Yeshivos and plain good old fashioned Shluchim, learn?
R’ Yisroel Friedman
R’ Avrohom Gerlitsky
R’ Avrohom Hertz
R’ Shlomo Segal
R’ Zalman Wilshansky
R’ Shmuel Heber
R’ Yisroel Labkowsky
R’ Zalman Labkowsky
R’ Yankel Goldberg
R’ Yitzchock Goldberg
R’ Yitzchock Willshansky
R’ Avrohom Osdoba
R’ Yaacov Schwei
R’ Mordechai Ashkenazi
R’ Yehuda Yeruslavsky
R’ Mendel Gluchovsky
R’ Yosef Schusterman
R’ Leibel Schapiro
R’ Binyamin Kuperman
R’ Moshe Bogomilsky
R’ Avrohom Boruch Pevzner
R’ Yechiel Kalmenson
R’ Yosef Kalmenson
R’ Sholom Ber Chaikin
R’ Yitzchock Raskin
R’ Zushe Winner
R’ Yitzchock Zirkind
R’ Morderchai Gurary
R’ Yankel Katz
R’ Tzvi Gruzman
R’ Yisroel Rubin
R’ Eliezer Teitlebaum
R’ Sholom Ber Levin
R’ Leibel Kaplan
R’ Boomi Friedland
R’ Akiva Cohen
R’ Sholom Spalter
R’ Yochanan Gurary
R’ Yosef Hecht
R’ Yosef Shea Hecht
And then there are so many that may have learned in their early teens in other Yeshivos, but their main learning from the age of 16 was in Lubavitch only, which is where they got most of their real learning, so where do you come off with your pompous arrogance putting down Lubavitch lomdim. The Rebbe himself said it in 5735/6/7, that “Lubavitch hot zich nit mit vos shemen mit ire lomdim” compared to anyone
And then we can keep naming hundreds of yungelait who are world class geonim but in typical chasidish fashion don’t blow their noses in public….
I need no more than look at the many young guys who took up positions and gave out Seforim in the last 15 years, whom I don’t know on a personal level due to my age….
In plain simple English, Lubavitchers pride themselves more in their readiness to do the Rebbes shlichus, than in their personal accomplishments.
a more inconvertible truth
to 45. ill tell you whats a more inconvenient truth, the fact that Reb Broin does not have semicha and that he was elected under false pretenses supported by a campaign of major misinformation.
though i agree rabbi bogomilslky did not get the community vote, but let us not be naive to think that the 80 vote difference between the two wouldn’t have changed *significantly* had the voters known that broin is a fraud and does not have semicha.
let me ask you think, would you go to a doctor that knows all the medical stuff but does not possess an m.d.? would you go to dentist that knows all the dentistry but does not have a d.d.s.? would you go to a lawyer who know all the law but does not have his e.s.q.?
Rabbi Mattis Kantor, Eastern Parkway, NY
To # 47
Would you go to a doctor who has great medical knowledge, but no MD? Why you just made an appointment. Correct?
But then you find out he committed fraud in medical judgment. Would you keep the appointment or would you cancel?
To # 45
The REAL Rabbi Braun did not win the election. The Virtual Rabbi Braun won. There is no REAL Rabbi Braun, there is a Yossi Braun.
Has anyone noticed how many days have past since these letters were sent to Rabbi Rosenberg? Does he have a problem with the word “fraud”? Perhaps he is a genius at something other than Torah, and is now in serious self-conflict? Is it possible that not only the Illuy Braun has the Kayin-stamp of fraud on the forehead, but the Vizhnitzer Illuy has acquired it also?
For full disclosure: I attempted to speak to Rabbi Rosenberg personally well before the nominations; again after the nominations; and on election day. His responses seemed strange at the time; stranger than the way he eyed me from a distance at shacharis in the Vizhnitzer stibblech a few weeks ago, when “doing” my bi-monthly visit there. At that time I knew nothing of these letters, and only rumors about the “Virtual” (or “phantom”) smicha. There was something wrong with the picture of his facial expression. This time it was clear he was attempting to avoid me.
Gaon Hageonim
to 46
u exagerate im not saying some of these guys and maybe others dont know how to learn but gaonim is a guzme!!! you speak like a misnaged.
you forgot one name that may be called gaon Reb Herschl Greenberg from Buffalo.
Milhouse
#47, what exactly is an e.s.q.? Or was that your little joke?
Actually I prefer knowledge to credentials, and would rather go to a doctor who knows medicine better than to one who has a more prestigious degree. But that’s not the issue here. The issue is that the election criteria clearly specified that smicha was required, and Braun didn’t have one. Had the BD’s psak said that no smicha was required, and the winner of the election would be allowed to get smicha afterwards, that would have been fine; but I suspect that nobody would have accepted such a psak in the first place.
a more inconvertible truth
mihouse I too personalty prefer the knowledge over a degree, but why wouldn’t a doctor with superior medical knowledge not be board certified? perhaps its because he flaunts them? or worse, he killed or maimed a patient?
my point is that it is suspect, at the least. and a matter for grave concern at the worst.
do we want a rabbi who believes it is beneath him to get ordination from another rabbi who perhaps isnt as sharp and as smart as him?
Chaim Wohl
How bankrupt can a community be?
In other communities, i.e. Litvishe, etc. there are many “Chushuveh Rabonim,” Roshei Yeshiva, and others referred to as “Rabbi”, who might do not possess Smicha, and yet are religious leaders to their group. It is not required of them, and by some even looked down upon.
But that is NOT the case in Lubavitch. The Rebbe placed major emphasis on the importance of every bochur obtaining Smicha, preferably before his marriage. And indeed, such is the custom in Lubavitcher yeshivas now, that virtually every bochur that can gets Smicha beforehand. This has been at the minhog/policy in Lubavitch for decades. And THAT is ALL that counts here.
Why did the Rebbe place such emphasis on Smicha in Lubavitch? There can be a hundred reasons. I don’t know them and it is irrelevant to me. In the Rebbe says, I do. But perhaps, if I may offer an idea, knowing that the Rebbe was training an entire generation to go on shlichus, and to present themselves as “rabbis,” the Rebbe, an ”Ish Emes,” believed in “truth in advertising.” Every respectable field has its credentials. And the Rebbe accorded the same respect to the title “Rabbi.”
We are a mature, both younger and older, community. Our problems here unfortunately run deeper than the question of a Yossi Braun. How we allow two elderly men who are supposed to be rabbonim, who continue to feud with each other and drive this community crazy, is beyond me. The notion that we were searching to elect a third Rov, who would somehow “make peace” between the two others so that “finally the Besdin can work together — is absurd and ludicrous. In any other situation if two people in a working environment cannot work together, and that is a prerequisite for the position, they would get rid of them! [or one of them.] If you can’t do that, because they have obtained some imaginary state of tenure, then leave them with their ”titles,“ give them honorary positions, and get some real rabbonim — if indeed we really need a Besdin here. We cannot be held hostage to people’s personality disorders.
The ludicrous thought that some fellow is coming from Australia, someone virtually unknown to most of us, present himself for ten days on Internet videos, and based on that the community voted in a Rabbi, really raises some puzzling questions about the depth of this community.
How could such a thing happen, you might ask. Well as a limud zchus, one might say that we just witnessed the same in our country. A virtual unknown, a rookie politician, but a charismatic man repeated the same speech with the same mantra, ”yes we can!“ to audiences across America. The American public, nurtured on Hollywood and rock stars, bought into the glitz and glamour without barely scraping the surface of this candidate. Not only here, but when he went to Germany, over 200,000 people stood in the streets to see this great rockstar. And then we elected him president, perhaps the hardest job in the world. Now, two years later so many people are asking themselves ”what were we thinking!? And the answer of course is, sadly, we weren’t.
The fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise person from someone else’s. It is high time for Crown Heights to wake up. If we can’t fix our own house and we have to bring in an outsider, that’s unfortunate but necessary. But was Rabbi Rosenberg really the man for it? The circus that he perpetuated, making rules and breaking them as he went along, leaves us in tatters.
Forget about trying to fix this broken Besdin. Most people in Crown Heights have no connection to it anyway. Asay lcho Rav to whom you can bring your shaalos, and live a good life. Be kind to your neighbors, and when speaking to another person, be makdim rachamim lroigez. A little less stress, a few kind words, and focus on the things that are important to you. If you have children to raise, raise them as best you can and don’t expect any Besdin to “save your kids.” Take your heads out of the ground, stop spreading fairytales, and start taking control of your life. No one else is going to do it for you.
Does Rabbi Braun Have Smicha?
Full Disclosure: I am a Sydney born and bred fella. I have known Rabbi Yossi Braun since I was a small kid and heard from him Shiurim in all areas of Torah: The Rebbe’s Torah, Chassidus, Nigla, Halocho, Dikduk, Chakira..(Kabbala not yet..) and I am not exaggerating!
At a young age I left Sydney so I did not have the opportunity to know him as an adult. Until a few years ago I spent a couple of months in Sydney, while Rabbi Braun had a Smicha Program running the Tzemach Tzedek Shule. I was privileged to hear from him almost two Shiruim every day whether it was in Halochos of Smicha (Then he was teaching the end of Taaruvos and Halochos Kiddushin venesuin). Also, I was privileged to hear from him a daily lesson in Halacha. Your mind was dizzy at the end of a half an hour shiur at the amount of Marei Mekomos he quoted starting from Torah all the way through Gemoro, Rishonim, Achronim, today’s Poskim. Anyone who has been there knows what I am talking about.
Lately there has been much discussion around Paragraph 31 from the Psak that the dissidents quote the fact that he doesn’t fulfill 3 out of 5 conditions.
The conditions are:
1) Married
2) Ready to accept the yoke of leadership to the fullest extent and move to Crown Heights
3) Smicha certificate
4) Over the age 40
5) Receive a letter of recommendation from one of the Memebers of the Badatz.
Who ever fulfills these conditions is automatically accepted as a candidate.
Now, they say, that since he doesn’t fulfill conditions 3 and 4, he is not qualified. However if they would read the continuation (of paragraph 31):
“Some one who lacks some of these conditions and nevertheless thinks that he is fit to be a candidate, should approach the Head of the Beis Din in order to submit a request for candidacy.”
Black on white: The conditions are not le’ikuva!
To the heart of these issues (even though according to the ruling these conditions are flexible per the Av Beis Din’s decision and he decided that Rabbi Braun can run!):
1) Smicha:
Saying Rabbi Braun has no smicha is like someone saying about the sun that it isn’t the sun, because it has no sign on it saying: This is sun.
He taught smicha (which included Seder Kidushin and Nesiun practically) and gave hundreds of Shiurim for 2 years in a row in the last 4 years, and was a Rav Hamasmich together with Rabbi Gavriel Tzinner who relied on Rabbi Braun to test the Bochurim on most of the curriculum!
Shimush:
Rabbi Braun did Shimush by Rabbi Marlow Z”L in 1995 for a couple of months. (He wrote psakim in Rabbi Marlow’s name!)
In addition he spent hundreds of hours of Shimush by his Grandfather who was one of the eminent Poskim of the generation.
Ask the many women of the community who asked him Shaalos in Hilchos Nida in the past 8 years if he knows the Halachos.
I hope people will understand that all the rumors that are being spread are simple exaggerations and are only spread for one reason: to disqualify Rabbi Braun. These rumors are malicious lies at best and people would do best just to ignore them.
Here we go again: to #53
To # 53.
Ah, so the fraudulent smicha isn’t fraud because he is an Illuy?
What is it, yungerman, that you don’t understand about a proposed Dayan who committed a high profile public fraud.
Again, read the word slowly and carefully: FRAUD.
Now put it next to the title Dayan.
BTW, you lost credibility as a mavin when you ignored the word FRAUD. You gained the title of “groupie”.
He has, he has...
He has chutzpah.
He also has Blind Freddy (a famous Aussie character) as a follower, leading those who know exactly where they want to go, and what they will see on the way, and what they will do once they arrive at their destination.
Nitnah Rosh venashuva….
Rabbi Mattis Kantor, Eastern Parkway, NY
In order to be on the Sanhedrin a Talmid Chochom needed to be able to prove in 150 ways, that a “sheretz” is tahor. (differences between Bavli & Yerushalmi on this: The numbers, 100 or 150; and the “requirement” – or that there were those who did prove.)
Does that make the halacha then, that a sheretz is tahor? Of course not. So why the requirement (or the gedulla)?
A chassidishe pshat: So that the Dayan will be fully aware as he paskens that Mey Hashem yotzoh hadavar. Not from his brilliance and erudition.
A fraudulent smicha as presented, is toivel vvesheretz beyodoy.
Please, Please, please. Get over it. He is damaged goods in the eyes of the rabim. Please don’t prolong the agony being suffered by Anash all over the world, by the direction we have been heading. Please wake up, smell some coffee, and realize that sooner or later the rabim will be totally fed up with your brilliant reasons why he didn’t/doesn’t need smicha etc, etc. No one is interested in that anymore. They want to know, or rather, they already know, that he is capable of fraud. So if you keep up the support, your whole agenda will be considered fraudulent, without the need of a declaration.
It is so saddening (begashmiyus) to see so many chassidim with krumeh kep, Hashem yerachem. How does an intelligent adult bark around the central point without seeing it. Fraud is fraud. A Rov is a Rov. Think about the achrayus the Rebbe gave in his famous sicha, to turn to chassidishe Rabbonim with questions.
27 year old ch resident yungerman
Rabbi Kantor,
Though I don’t have the guts that you posses to sign my name, please keep on weighing in on this issue as it is a public service to our entire sane community to be moiche this fraud. I truly admire your character for taking an unpopular step as being a non anonymous activist to promote sanity in all of this insanity. A real rov takes a stand, and you truly do. I hope you will be involved in the nomination of a new VIABLE sane non tzfati candidate if we will be so fortunate to have a new election. Thanks.
Misleading Election ballot
Even if you say that Smicha is not a prerequisite to be elected Rov (?!), the fact is that Yossi Braun didn’t have Smicha. So when we went to vote the ballot should have stated the following:
“Please vote for one of the following:
Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
Rabbi Emanuel Chaviv
Mr. Yossi Braun”
I promise you had all the facts been in the open, he would not have won the election.
Inda Know
Sore losers … of the election. It wasn’t an election, and even if it was , it wasn’t valid, and even if it was valid, it won’t be after we get through repeating our BIG lies enough times. Just wait and see. We’ll mop up his blood with a Sefer Torah! Ha. Take that!
xyz
Reply to “to xyz” (can’t u even think up a tag for yourself?)
You list 40-50 names of Chabad people vos kenen lernen. Wonderful. Truly amazing that in a chasidus and kehilla with 10-20,000 families and 50 or even 100 yeshivos and kollelim worldwide – this is all you can come up with.
Why, even Lakewood you can find 500-1000 learners who know far far more than the majority on your list. Checkout the satmar, Skver and Viznitz kollelim and you’ll find more. True they don’t call themselves ‘rabbis’ – which seems very important to you.
And a reminder – you recently had 4000 ‘rabbis’ at your shlchim conference – 4000, remmber? – but you can’t list more than 50 ‘vos kennen’???
And to Reb Mattis Kantor, I hate to say it as I know you mean well, but it does sound like a case of sour grapes.
But really how well do you know Rabbi Braun? Not too well obviously because if you did you would drop all the naarishe taynes out of respect for one of Chabad’s outstanding talmidei chachomim.
ChabadLeaks.tumblr.com
To 53
Your post complete and total gibberish. The English is nonsensical and confused – and the content doesn’t fair better.
How can a “small ‘kid’” grasp “Shiurim in all areas of Torah: The Rebbe’s Torah, Chassidus, Nigla, Halocho, Dikduk, Chakira”
How does the fact that Braun failed to disclose his lack of smicha before he ran, this running under false pretenses, apply to the third condition?
Your argument ontological that Braun needs no declaration of smicha because he has smicha (calling the sun a sun) is ontological and specious.
Narishkeit
Look… a simple question deserves a simple answer.
Does Rabbi Braun have smichah or not?
If yes and it is a valid one, then all this rhetoric is simply just that.And some of it, very nasty indeed.
If he doesn’t have smichah then how did the vaad in charge of the bechirois allow him to run? If that was one of the prerequesties.
I know Rabbi Braun personally, and I can tell you that he has more inegrity than many commentators on here, including a groiser Rabbi, vos macht zich grois ober nor in gashmiyus,
Micky mouse for president
And Obama is not really an American yet he bcame president of the most powerful (and maybe gullible) nation on earth.
True Story
The Chafetz Chaim was invited to speak at a Rabbinic gathering. As
you know he wrote the Mishna Bruer, the shulchan aruch that the
litvishe use as their halachic guide. He taught hallachah to
thousands of students who became Rabbis. They said he could not
speak at the gathering because he did NOT have smichah & was not
a rabbi. So his STUDENTS, the rabbis, right there at the gathering
tested him, and quess what? He passed, and they gave him smichah &
they let him speak. True story. Yes, truth is stranger than fiction.
Rabbi Mattis Kantor, Eastern Parkway, NY
To #60. You are correct. I have eaten sour grapes. My statements reek with it. The sour grapes are bitter in my mouth, all the way down to hergesh halev. What has become of the Intellectual brand of Chassidus, that even the non-Jewish census-taker declared that it had removed “der naar fun der velt.” Bitter in di gall that what was once the broadest and deepest theological system in Judaism ever, has now distilled itself down to the narrowest theology (that is, bepoel, because the theory is still there, shining in the Chabad Museum of sforim and kessavim.) And the upcoming generations are not following the path paved with shtuss. There is a saying that “fools dance where angels fear to tread.” Yes, sour grapes because the fools are dancing (outside of any real chassidishe context.) BTW this does not break down to simply yes-meshichist, not-meshichist. It is considerably more complex.
I have stated and disclosed before, that my credentials do NOT qualify me for nomination as a Rov in Crwon Heights. I have no Yadin Yadin smicha, and no shimush in Diney Mommonois. (My self proclaimed brilliance in the 5th chelek Shulchan Aruch doesn’t count, even with half the brain tied behind my back.)
Reb Nachman Breslover once told the story (or metaphor) that the astrologers came to the king and told him that anyone eating next years grain will go mad. We, they said, recommend the Biblical solution of storing grain at least for the king and his advisers. He called them back the next day, and said: “If we eat good grain and remain normal, then all the insane people will say we are the meshugoyim. We will also eat the new grain, but beforehand we will make a mark on our foreheads so that at least we will know that we are mad.” Crown Heights would not be the place for a pikeyach as a Rov. All the self proclaimes pikchim (verabim heim) would trash him.
To #62. You needn’t be shy, you can say openly that I am overweight. But how that relates to what my mind releases is not of importance, I guess.
You say that you know Braun personally. It sounds like you are a friend. Does that make you possul le’eydus.
Back to the subject of: What is so difficult to understand that a Dayan who committed public and damaging fraud, is possul leDayonuss (anywhere, especially this Shchunah. But some will have it that “anywhere, except this schunah” – where fools dance, and even lead the way.)
So now his supportes have come to me with an altered argument. “He never said the letter from Tzinner was smicha. It was other people.”
Azoy?
The where was his macha’a? The halacha is “shtika kehoda’a”.
I hereby give Yosef Yeshaya Braun until the 5th Chanuka light to declare publicly that it was not he who claimed this as smicha, and to give sound reasoning as to why his shtika is not hosa’a. He is an Illuy, we are told, either he can do it or he can not.
If he does, I will publicly withdraw any statement I have made about fraud.
BTW, I do not see why a whole community needs to wait weeks to find out whether he presented Tzinner’s letter to the Zabla as smicha. The answer should be two words. “He did.” Or “He didn’t” If it is the former then we have no need for a Zabla to tell us what to do with a liar. If he didn’t then we need an explanation why he made no macha’a to the campaign by others lehatoyss ess harabim.
Disclosure:
My sole interest (and soul interest) is to raise the standard of Chassiduss Chabad, so that all, including bright youngsters will have a she’ifffa to swim in the waters of chassidus. To be true chassidim (not “pop-chassidim”) Until and unless there are growth incentives within the structure and framework of “the system”, the incentive of growth will wander to other pastures. (A Rov slipping in under false pre-tenses could seal the negative direction for generations.) Yes mashiach will come, but let him come to upset our growth, and not to stop the downslide.
Mi Ha-ish?
To #64.
Everyone knew the Chofetz Chaim didn’t have smicha?
He didn’t “sneak” in under false pretenses?
So what is the message for our dillemma?
That even the Chafetz Chaim would not be allowed to speak unless he had smicha?
to xyz #60
You are so pathetic in your arguments.
The 500-1000 you will find in Lakewood can be outdone anytime by 2000 in Lubavitch. Just talk to an average Bochur in 770 or a Yungerman in any Kolel of Lubavitch worldwide and you’ll be astounded by their Yedios in Torah. If you are unaware of this fact, then it reflects on who you are and around what kind of Bochrim and Yungelait you hang around. And your credentials on commenting about who is a Talmid Chochom, is reduced to pretty much, not much.
What was posted was a short quick list of world class Geonim, yes, world class Geonim, who learnt nowhere outside of Lubavitch pretty much ever. And if we add those who in their Torah wisdom discovered that in Lubavitch they only can grow on top of what they acquired in Lakewood, Kol Torah, Ponevitch, Torah Vodaas, Mir, Brisk, Chaim Berlin, Chevron, and all the others, then the list of world class Geonim will grow to many hundreds.
Just take the numbers of candidates and actual Rabbonim in Israel, who must go through a rigorous program of learning and testing before they are approved, keep going around the world and seriously lookup the list of Lubavitchers in the general Rabbinate of very religious and Chasidishe Kehilos, and you’ll see how heavily its populated with Lubavitche Yungelait.
You need very little research to come up with the real facts, and the real numbers. Perhaps Yossi Broin is a good example.
mother
I don’t know ab’ all politics but moving 11 kids KA’H out of their comunity school is a crime.
Mi HaIsh?
The Chafetz Chaim once gave the perfect example of what to do in this situation.
He came home early on vening and met a ganeff – who paicked and ran off with one silver candlestick. The Chafetz Chayim chased him with th other saying you may as well have both.
So those involved in stealing with stealth an election, we really need to give them all 3 seats of the Beis Din.
Why?
Bwecause a ganeff blaybt a ganeff. Whether a Dayan or a blaboss.
Fishel
The whole controversy over Braun and the Crown Heights rabbanus needs to be analyzed froma psychological point of view. What is this all about. Semicha ? Some of the world’s greatest geonim never got formal semicha. Is it about besdin , I tend to doubt it.
I think it”s about our community being leaderless. We have slogans and hopes but no leader , to guide us.
Perhaps the time has arrived to confront the most serious issue and actually deal with it rather than create slogans and fights hiding the true meaning of it all