With elections for a new Vaad Hakahal successfully behind us, I think our community should take a moment to reflect on our accomplishment, and to congratulate ourselves on a job well done.
The idea for these elections—as mandated in the recent psak din that resolved all outstanding community disputes—was that we should have a Vaad Hakahal universally accepted by all segments of the community. As in any election, there will always be some people disappointed by the results, but—since virtually every eligible voter in Crown Heights participated—there can be no doubt that those results are the legitimate will of the people. True, “the people” aren’t always perfect; there’s always the possibility of winding up with an outcome that is less than objectively ideal. But democracy is the best system we have, and it was endorsed by the Rebbe, so, once a valid election has been held, we can all feel good about the results. It’s part of the system that, if things don’t turn out as expected, there will be another election in a few years and we will be able to choose again.
Op-Ed: On the Race for the Rabbinate
With elections for a new Vaad Hakahal successfully behind us, I think our community should take a moment to reflect on our accomplishment, and to congratulate ourselves on a job well done.
The idea for these elections—as mandated in the recent psak din that resolved all outstanding community disputes—was that we should have a Vaad Hakahal universally accepted by all segments of the community. As in any election, there will always be some people disappointed by the results, but—since virtually every eligible voter in Crown Heights participated—there can be no doubt that those results are the legitimate will of the people. True, “the people” aren’t always perfect; there’s always the possibility of winding up with an outcome that is less than objectively ideal. But democracy is the best system we have, and it was endorsed by the Rebbe, so, once a valid election has been held, we can all feel good about the results. It’s part of the system that, if things don’t turn out as expected, there will be another election in a few years and we will be able to choose again.
That last point is not the case with respect to our Beis Din. As confirmed by the psak din, once a rov is elected to the Beis Din of Crown Heights, it is a lifetime position. Therefore, I think it’s appropriate—indeed, it is necessary—that we now turn our attention to the upcoming election for a third rov.
A Beis Din is supposed to have an odd number of members, precisely because it is a Torah principle that majority rules. The psak din addressed the issue of the unfortunate deadlock on our Beis Din by decreeing that there be an election for a third rov to join Rabbi Osdoba and Rabbi Schwei as an active member of the Beis Din of Crown Heights. That election is a scant two months away (it is scheduled for the Sunday before this coming Rosh Hashana), and we must give ourselves enough time to learn who the candidates are; to learn all we can about each of them; to listen to, consider, question, and debate all the various things different parties are inevitably going to say about them; and, finally, to arrive at election day fully informed about the candidates and the issues, with a well-reasoned opinion of our own guiding our choice.
We’ve never seemed to do it that way in Crown Heights. In many ways, this community is politically immature; it is a sociological fact that we are only now transitioning from the insular, Russian mentality of the neighborhood’s “early settlers,” if you will, to the more open, empowered, modern mindset of those people’s American children and grandchildren. Generational shifts like this take time, but we are just about there now, and—at least insofar as it affects the way we conduct elections—that’s a good thing.
In Crown Heights, elections (including the most recent one) have usually gone like this: anyone who is considering running keeps that a closely guarded secret until the very last instant. Then, just as the deadline to announce one’s candidacy is expiring, a bunch of people come out of the woodwork and declare themselves. With the exception of one inadequate (candidates are allowed to speak for five minutes—big deal) “candidates’ forum,” we don’t hear another peep out of, or about, any of them until literally a day or two before election day. Then, we are inundated with flyers under our doors (and, in recent years, internet posts): “Don’t vote for X because he sacrifices to idols.” “Don’t vote for Y because he commits adultery” (don’t kid yourselves: there really was such an accusation in a Crown Heights election). Don’t vote for Z because he [any other outrageous thing some irresponsible fool can dream up].”
These charges are then countered by more flyers: “Actually, no, our candidate doesn’t sacrifice to idols. But, sadly, and contrary to our usually reserved, mature, natures, it has now become our solemn obligation to inform you of the true nature of their candidate, who…Kidnaps! Murders! Informs!”
Yes, it’s absurd, and yes, it would all be very amusing—if it weren’t the way we have actually been running our community. So let’s stop this. The real problem with this bad old way of doing things is that people have no idea whom to believe, and have absolutely no time to investigate what all those flyers and internet posts are talking about. Whenever I talk about this (and I’ve been advocating a longer election cycle for years) people say, “starting to campaign earlier would only prolong the machlokes.” But you know what? That is exactly what we need: to prolong the “machlokes”—the debate, in good faith, about the issues. Yes! That is precisely what we do need! We now have the most important election of all looming before us—the election to complete our Beis Din. Let’s do it right for a change.
You may think it doesn’t matter this time; you may think an election for rov will not be as politically charged as the Vaad Hakahal elections. Don’t be so naïve. The fact is that much of the strife (r”l) in our community has its roots in the division on the Beis Din. The recent psak din, which addressed all major community disputes, used the language “Rabbi Osdoba’s side” and “Rabbi Schwei’s side” when referring to the parties to all these controversies. No doubt, the rabbonim themselves base their positions on Torah principles of Halacha and public policy. Unfortunately, they disagree, and there has arisen a whole host of partisans claiming to justify their political positions based on those disagreements. The key to shalom in Crown Heights is for the elected third rov to be truly neutral as to all those partisan squabbles, joining the two sitting rabbonim in basing his decisions exclusively on Halacha and Torah policy, inevitably sometimes siding with Rabbi Osdoba and sometimes with Rabbi Schwei. Then, the Torah principle that “majority rules” will yield psakim from the Beis Din of Crown Heights that we can all accept as our Beis Din’s united ruling.
Let us not allow partisans to contaminate the coming “race for the Rabbinate” with last-minute, impossible to verify, claims about the candidates. According to the psak din, the Beis Din election is to be conducted—technically—by the same bipartisan, six-member election committee that conducted the Vaad Hakahal election, but, unlike in that election, this time the election committee will have no say in vetting candidates. Instead, any candidate must be automatically accepted by the election committee if he:
1) Has semicha for rabbonus;
2) Is married;
3) Is over forty years of age;
4) Is prepared to serve as a full-time rov if elected;
5) Is a resident of Crown Heights or commits himself to move here if elected; and
6) Obtains written confirmation from either Rabbi Osdoba or Rabbi Schwei that he is fit to be a rov.
The last day to submit one’s candidacy to the election committee is Friday, August 6. Within one week of that date—in other words, no later than Friday, August 13—the election committee is to publicize the list of candidates. The election is to take place three weeks later, on Sunday, September 5.
In light of all the above, I appeal to all concerned—not only the members of the election committee and the new Vaad Hakahal, whose roles are limited in this regard, but especially to the potential candidates, their supporters, and anyone interested in soliciting them, as well as to the voters themselves—to do the following:
1) Immediately begin or continue the search for qualified candidates, so that, by the deadline of August 6—just four weeks away—the community will have the broadest and best field to choose from.
2) Voters should immediately begin or continue thinking about the issues. Who would make a good rov for Crown Heights and why? What has been going on over the past several years with respect to our Beis Din, and how has that affected other areas? If you don’t already know these things, or if you are unsure, now is the time to start asking around and soliciting opinions and information from those you trust. If you hear names of possible candidates bandied about, see what you can find out about them while you still have plenty of time to do so.
3) Theoretically, there is nothing to prevent a potential candidate from announcing and beginning to campaign even now, but if candidates are afraid to expose themselves to the rigors of a campaign until all contenders are known, at least let them—and, perhaps more importantly, their supporters—use this time privately preparing their strategies and materials.
4) In real life, no one is likely to announce before the deadline, so the most important thing is this: AS SOON AS THE LIST OF CANDIDATES IS MADE PUBLIC, BY AUGUST 13—LET THE CAMPAIGN BEGIN! Anyone who has anything to say about the candidates or the campaign should prepare now to release their comments then. That will give the community three full weeks to absorb it all, to digest it, to reach an informed decision. Three weeks is still not a long time for such a crucial and possibly complex campaign, but it’s all we have: let’s make full use of it!
I’ll repeat that final point, because, to tell the truth, I could have left out everything else I’ve just written and this article would still say the same thing. It is my entire point, plain and simple: out of respect for our intelligence and our right to full and adequate information, campaigning must begin three full weeks before the election. Under no circumstances should we accept another last-minute campaign.
We owe it to ourselves, we owe it to our children, and we owe it to our community to use our votes wisely and with full knowledge of all relevant issues, and we must demand—given the importance of this election and the lifetime nature of the result—that we not be deprived of the opportunity to do so by a one- or two-day campaign.
Yitzchok Wagshul
antimesira
Yitzchok Wagshul?
Doesn’t he pretend to be a journalist, where was he when six of his fellow Jews were facing trial only two miles from here (a few blocks away)?
Why was he not there to report?
Now he pretends to care?
All this article is, is another propaganda piece dressed in sheep clothing.
Moshe Zalman
We deserve a more advanced notice to who will run, to prepare ourselves on who to vote!
Second it would be best that we try to elect someone, that Osdoba, and Shwei agree on, then we have a chance for maybe having a proper Beis din,if not the whole thing is a waist of time.
chaim B
I feel Rabbi Segal should remail as Rov.
He has Smecha from the top Rabbonim and Shimush from Hilke Pezner himself. The Rebbe told Rav Segal to get Shimush many years ago(that might have bin a hint).
The only person I knoe to date that talks bad about him is a guy that just lost for Vaad hakohl named Eli P, who owes a apology to the community for stoping davening in 770 for 45 minutes on Rosh hashona.
yanky
Zirkind is such a smart,kind, decent man.
Everyone loves him I heard Rabbi Schway say that he was his talmid and that he is so prod of him.
He should ask Schway Rishus to run which he will give him and then everyone will vote him in .
to #1 antimesria
To respect people like you, the writers of most op-ed’s like to keep their name anonymus cuz then the comments veer away from the tochen and like to discuss (a very immature trait) – the people who sign such an article.
to #5
#5:
antimesira brings up a point that is extremely relevant, as it goes to the credibility of the op ed’s author.
Antimesira, you are not alone, many members of the community made the effort to vote, in part due to this author’s self righteous, perfidious hypocrisy.
Author: How’s it? What is your agenda?
Chaim
One of the reasons this website has become unbearable is because every time there’s an article about anything people/commenters connect it to the “shomrim six”. that was a terrible thing but it’s annoying when there’s a PSA about alternate side parking and someone comments “where was the sweeper truck when 6 Jews were sitting in jail – MOISER”
Concerned
Did Mendy Hendel Ask Yitzchok to write this article?
moshe der g
why is that alot of people with their heads full of hot air want to speak and think they know it all
a) mr wagshul ia a person who sold the newspaper “crown heights chronicle” as a tool to elect certain parties both in the last election and in the one before that.
without ever disclosing who paid him to write his one sided newspaper
he is also a disbarred lawyer. and if i were him would hide under a rock and hide. but here in CH he thinks we are stupid and writes articles and became a groise dayer zuker
i am surprised that this was even published by this website..
Two IMPORTANT Points
Two points:
1. Since a Rov gets voted in FOR LIFE, we MUST vote for an older Rov, in case he is a “mistake” – it won’t be for a long time before we can vote for another Rov.
2. The 6 rules for a qualified Rov do not include that he must be a Lubavitcher or even a chosid!! The rules are:
1) Has semicha for rabbonus;
2) Is married;
3) Is over forty years of age;
4) Is prepared to serve as a full-time rov if elected;
5) Is a resident of Crown Heights or commits himself to move here if elected; and
6) Obtains written confirmation from either Rabbi Osdoba or Rabbi Schwei that he is fit to be a rov.
lost my respect for yitzchok wagshul
I used to love and respect Yitzchok Wagshul. However I find it very difficult to do so after his last newspaper. On the one hand he claimed to be impartial; on the other, he puts out a single newspaper in a whole year clearly slanted at one side. He gave them pages upon pages of interviews but in the “candidate’s profile” section, writes that due to editorial constraints he did not have enough room to give the views of some of the others.
Now, I still love Yitzchok, but I no longer respect him as a journalist. At all.
Yitzchok Wagshul
To #s 1 and 6:
What a shame, what a shame. Fools like you–people of unaccountable hostility and ill-will toward even the most unobjectionable of others–are precisely who are at the root of our community’s problems; precisely the perpetrators of the last-minute “pashkvillin” I wrote about.
My writing–in the present op-ed; in the recent Crown Heights Chronicle editorial (which, I should not have to remind you, was clearly presented as my personal opinion, to which I am every bit as entitled as you are to yours); and, I flatter myself to think, pretty much anywhere else–is characterized by clear and logically-presented exposition of my reasons for believing as I do. I defy you to point to anything in my op-ed piece that is not perfectly reasonable or that is anything other than just plain common sense. Yet your comments are essentially this: “Yitzchok Wagshul? Why, I don’t like the car he drives! His op-ed is obviously propaganda!”
But, you see, you may have done us all a favor: your posts illustrate exactly why I am right in arguing for a reasonable time in which to air all issues in a campaign. Had this exchange of posts taken place the day before the election, you would have written the very same nonsense, but either I might not have had a chance to respond, or readers might not have had a chance to see my response. In either case, readers would not have had time to think about the questions raised and look into them for themselves. But, because I put my opinion out there now, way in advance of the election, you have had your say, and I am responding, and readers are reading–all in plenty of time to think about the REAL issue, which is not, of course whether or not they like me (how silly!) but whether or not we should have a longer election cycle. (Unfortunately, your comments do not address that at all. Thank you to #5 for pointing that out.)
But, since you asked, I will answer your question. I am always happy to engage in open dialogue, because, unlike most of the baalei machlokes out there, I am a person of good will, not ill-will; a man of empathy, not hostility. (You should try that yourself; I think you’d like it.) You asked why, if I am a journalist, I did not attend the Shomrim trial, why I was not there to report. The answer is simple: I retired from journalism in 2006 or so, well before the trial, and at the time, I was probably working and not at leisure to attend trials–important or otherwise. Haven’t you noticed that the Crown Heights Chronicle is no longer regularly published?
Now, I’m going to ask you a favor. I don’t know whether the answer I just gave satisfies you or not (although it certainly should), but if you have anything to add about my supposed “self-righteous, perfidious, hypocrisy,” would you please be enough of a man–enough of a mentsch–to call me up, introduce yourself, and tell me so in person? You see, I have another characteristic I urge you to adopt: I am not afraid to put my name to my opinion, and I would appreciate it, Mr. “1” and Mr. “6,” if you would do the same.
Otherwise, how can I be sure–how can any of us be sure–that it is not YOU who are a self-righteous, perfidious, hypocrite?
–Yitzchok Wagshul
Chabadnik
We need a Litveshe Rav like in the old days in the Lubavitch towns. A Litvak will not be beholden to any party here. Choose someone from Lakewood. If you dont like a Litvak choose someone from Satmer. Just dont take anyone from Anash.
ceo
oh please, it has to start with someone. please, save us all, and b’makom sh ayin ish, tishtadel lehios ish.
please someone follow the rules of how to bring achdus.
A Woman to minister the women
Why can’t the third Rov be a woman?? It is bad enough we don’t vote, at least let a woman be there for 50% of crown heights!!
Wow! a voice of reason
Maybe this writer should be the Rov! Finally a voice of reason from all the political garbage we’ve seen in the past.
What about Yossi Jacobson or Moshe Pinson, people who have epess also an understanding of the Real World! It’s nice to know what’s going on in the books, but to apply it in actuality takes someone what can relate to what’s happening outside the four walls of the study hall. Good luck Crown Heights! You’re gonna need it. Find someone you like and push him into the position! Anyone who wants the job from himself, should right away be disqualified from the start out!
Rav Suggestion
Whats needed is a Rov who is capable of aiding & healing the rifts within our fragmented community. A person who has shown capabilities with young and old. The depth of character, credibility and integrity are more valuable than other attributes. RMK come forward.
Avi Avos
I vote Avi Weiss for Rov. He and only he will satisfy the nut-case ladies who hog this blog with repeated inanities of secular rights in a religious context.
He is an expert at making the secular religious and the religious secular.
Go ladies, go.
Far away from the rudder of a Torah and Chassidus community.
Laaniyas Dayti
1. This op-ed assumes that there will be a few candidates. I see none and can think of none.
2. The only one I know, who agreed to have his name on the ballot but would not campaign for it, has now withdrawn that commitment. The commitment to stand up and face the extreme difficulties, only because so much is at stake. For the Ribbono Shel Olam and for all the Rebbeim.. His family, as well as himself, have seen the appalling behavior during the run-off, so that they refuse now to allow him to be on the ballot. He has come to the realization that it is unbecoming for him (or any other serious Rov) to take off his shoes and socks and jump into the sandpit where the other two kids are throwing sand.
3. Why would any Rov of stature leave his current position at the behest of a few gvirim (who are not above flinging the manure themselves.)
4. Any Rov of stature would be a direct threat to both the current Rabbonim. They stand to be “demoted” in the perception of the people. So the manure will fly thick and fast from both sides to the middle.
5. Hilchos Dayanim in Shulchan Aruch says that it is improper to seek to be a dayan. It also says to be particular about the dayanim you will be sitting with. And this op-ed speaks of a Rov campaigning? To join this beis din, mekor hamachloikess?
6. Perhaps the community needs to appoint a Rov Ha’Ir who will be separate (and independent) of the current beis din, although he will be an honorary member, and often a sitting member. True, it would be an active demotion for the current two, but a well deserved one.
7. A “Rov Ha’ir” would be more of a mashpiya-like role model, a posek, and a face for our community in the larger frum community. Any public proclamation of the beis din would need him to be signed on.
Yitzchok - guts
Yitzchok – you have guts to write your name – and I admit my weakness and fear of signing and standing up to the crown hights blog mob.
That said, something does stink here – and in general, I think you owe the community some full disclosure regarding what your purpose is.
You have lost your credibility.
PS. Were you really disbarred or is that slander?
Chaim Hershkop Shomrim Six
To Chaim #7:
Yes my dear friends.
Mesira (open a shulchan Aruch) is one of the worse Jewish offenses. If you don’t care about a level 10 earth quake, then why would a level 2 bother you?
You make issue and get involved about the small stuff because it really is irrelevant (meaning: you don’t have to follow up with action, you write your comment, give you opinion and move on).
Had you come to court and seen the mesira – blood libel it might it might put you in a situation where you G-d forbid might have to take action (by talking to someone who is doing the mesira etc…), therefore then you where quit.
So do me a favor, you were silence when blood flowed and still flows our streets (and blood did flow), so please shot up now as well!
The same applies to Y.W. if you were retired then, then retire now. If six Jews facing 15 years is not enough to get back in to it (as a person) then this garbage is diffidently not your place.
here come the excuses
“You asked why, if I am a journalist, I did not attend the Shomrim trial, why I was not there to report. The answer is simple: I retired from journalism in 2006 or so, well before the trial, and at the time, I was probably working and not at leisure to attend trials–important or otherwise. Haven’t you noticed that the Crown Heights Chronicle is no longer regularly published?”
All you had to do was get on the 3-4 train to downtown Brooklyn and sit there for a few hours.
I’m sure your not that busy (if you have time to do what you are doing now).
Your a hired gun, you shot who the mosrim tell you to shot.
You write your name because you have nothing to loss.
Thinking Positive
This whole thing is to complicated.
But we have a clear Horoah from the Rebbe to learn at least in the 3 weeks about the Bais Hamikdash Shaini in Middos and Hilchos Bais Habchira, Yecheskel Bais Shlishi and Give more Tzdoko Tzion Bemishpat Tipode Veshoveho Bitzdoko.
To Make Siyumim from Rosh Chodesh Av to the 15th.
Also the Rebbe stressed bringing Moshiach thru Ahavas Chinom to rectify the Sinas Chinam that brought the distruction.
In Empire Shtibel Between Mincha and Maariv there is a shiur in English in the above. And Immediately after Maariv there is a siyum. Likewise in 770 you have shiurim in the above and after Maariv there is a siyum.
Please be a part of building the Bais Hamikdash.
doc
doc – jacobson who is a dayon from crown street should be third rov
antimesira
“These charges are then countered by more flyers: “Actually, no, our candidate doesn’t sacrifice to idols. But, sadly, and contrary to our usually reserved, mature, natures, it has now become our solemn obligation to inform you of the true nature of their candidate, who…Kidnaps! Murders! Informs!””
You are attempting to belittle the claims of Mesira by making fun of the whole thing. “kidnaps! Murders”! Informs!“
You are correct to but those three things together. A Mosser/Informer ends up kidnapping the person he does Mesira on and essentially by getting him locked up he murders that person and his family.
The claims of Mesira came with evidence; documents; proof to back up. Those who have been called out as Mosrim are still Mosrim after the elections, they will always be Mosrim.
http://www.crownheights.inf…
If they want to clear their names, they can attempt to even now (after the election). We would all like to hear what business Chanina Sperlin had arresting 4 members of our community in 2001?.
What business did Poltorak have at Kings County Hospital on December 29, 2007?
I would like to see Fishel Brownstein permission to go to court and participate in Mesira.
Don’t make a joke out of Mesira. The victims of these Mesiras did not have the luxury to stand up in court and say ”hay guys, your honor, the Jury, the prosecution, this is all one big joke, lets forget about it and go home.“
Everyday we remember what Amalek did to us when we left Egypt.
And number seven, what did you do to help those six Jews at the time, what are you doing now. The Mesira still is taking place.
The Shomrim Lawsuit- Hundred forty four million dollars (?)
http://machanemenachem.file…
Should it come as a surprise that you may have been from those who would have been happy that six Jews be sentenced and sent to jail. Would it be a surprise that you are from those who justify and excuse Mesira? No, I would not be surprised. I know you want to ”just forget about it and move on“. The only regrets you and your friends have is that those Six Jews are not sitting in jail right now.
Yes, I will continue to stick this in your face. I have 15 years to do it. 15 years that I could have sat in jail.
”Erase the memory of Amalek”…that I will do!
Crown Height woman
I managed to go to the trial, more than one time. So did many other people. If we can’t stick together when there’s meseira, when can we be united? If Mr. Wagshul is retired from journalism, why is he still writing op-ed’s?
Go, Chaim Hershkopf, go!
About the third Rav…you men need to elect someone who treats women nicely. We’re sick and tired of being humiliated every time we have a shailoh…one Rav talks to us like we’re idiots, another has the Rebbetzin run interference, another doesn’t speak English, another is never there, another is busy with his own pekkle…who is there for the Noshim Tzidkonius?
Another thing. I don’t know about your husband’s but mine isn’t qualified to decide who the 3rd Rav should be. Why isn’t this left to the Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch? THEY should pick.
#15..sorry, but that has to be the ditziest, “blondest” suggestion so far.
Libels
Why would anyone agree to run after the methods used in the last election: loshon harah, libels, hate. I am really disgusted.
To # 26 Crown Height woman
You wrote: “#15..sorry, but that has to be the ditziest, “blondest” suggestion so far.”
Why do you “accept” the domination of men over your affairs? Have you no self pride?!
Where is your spirit instilled by our holy Immahos, Sara Rivka Rochel Leah who were greater than the Avos?
Where is the spirit of leadership inherited from Miriam Hanveah or Devorah who was a Shofetes (aka Rov of klal Yisroel)?
Go and learn about the women of greatness who led Jewish communities in Torah scholarship and communal affairs!
Research about Bruriah, Rav Meir’s wife who learned 300 halochas each day – she was a poisek!!
Discover that Rashi’s daughters were Roshei Yeshivos and taught Torah! (Some say they wrote the commentary of “Rashi” on Talmud Nedarim).
There were women Rabbonim in various times of our long history! Check out about Asenath Barzani (1590–1670) who served as Rov in Mosul, Iraq and was given the title Tanna’it.
Read about Channa Rachel Werbermacher, the Maiden of Ludmir who was like a Rebbe (see book: “They Called Her Rebbe”) and she almost brough Moshiach!!
Become educated and you will se that the Pitchei Teshuvah CM 7:5 says that a woman CAN be a poisek and give halachic rulings, and a rose by any other name is still aka Rov. The ONLY restriction is for a woman to sit on a Din Torah per Shulchan Aruch CM 7:4.
Know the facts and become enpowered! Don’t buy into the male dominated propoganda which thrives because of our ignorance.
Returning to your comment that #15 has to be the ditziest, “blondest” suggestion so far, in light of the facts I listed, do I or #5 still sound “ditzy” or “blondie”???
Many of the problems in our community would improve or be eliminated if a woman was chosen as the third Rov!!
3 rabbonim needed
How can you vote for segal !! ?? A rav must listen to both sides and decide the case. Segal would only hear one side- osdaba, and would go along with all his shtussim. A bais din must have 3 rabbonim , not one rav who hates anyone that has another opinion. Tht’s why Osdaba could not work with Rabbi Schvei. Osdaba wants complete control, therefor, he his pushing Segal to run.
Yitzchok Wagshul
To “Antimesira” (a/k/a “#1”):
I had not intended to spend any more time on this, but, in all sincerity, I will tell you that because of your remarks in comment number 25, I feel I owe you an apology. Despite what I wrote in #12, you have still not chosen to identify yourself, but from your statement that you could have sat in jail for fifteen years (chas veshalom) it seems obvious that you are one of the so-called “Shomrim Six.” You complain that my choice of words (“Kidnaps! Murders! Informs!”), in your eyes, belittles the fear, the anguish, the suffering that you and your fellow defendants, you and all of your families, underwent in connection with the charges and the trial. You complain that it was written sarcastically, to subtly ridicule the “mesirah” charges that were bandied about before the election, to “make a joke out of mesirah.” I must admit, I did intend to poke fun at the mesirah allegations—but they were not YOUR mesirah allegations. Actually, although I was indeed not publishing the newspaper during that period, I followed the internet coverage with true dismay, and I would never belittle what you and your fellow Shomrim members went through. This is so regardless of the underlying facts of the case, about which I know too little; I would like to believe that even your adversaries—those who brought you to trial—were sincere and felt anguish over what they believed themselves compelled to do. In any event, I myself had nothing to do with it, and can truly say that I was anguished by the entire episode.
The “mesirah” charge I intended to subtly ridicule (and I commend you for picking up on that) was the one that had nothing to do with you: the allegation that merely serving subpoenas on certain people, under the circumstances of the case, was mesirah. I explained my position on that in the newspaper, and I expect you to have read it if you are to participate meaningfully in any dialogue with me. But whether you know my rationale or not, that was what I was referring to.
I shouldn’t really have to remind anyone of this, since my views have been a matter of public record—printed in black and white in the Crown Heights Chronicle—for many years, but I respect and admire anyone who puts their own safety on the line in order to protect all the rest of us, including my family and me. I know that you don’t agree with me about this, but that respect and admiration extends to both the Shomrim organization and the Shmira organization, about which I have written that the two of you should resolve your differences and merge. If you can’t bring yourselves to do that, perpetuating instead the maintenance of two rival groups doing the same thing in one small neighborhood, that’s your problem. Nevertheless, whatever you feel about the other group, no one can say that I am an enemy of the Shomrim: whenever the organization caught a criminal, helped in an accident, or whatever, I publicized that as a legitimate news event, giving full credit where credit was due. So it annoys me greatly that so many of the ignorant and the illiterate out there (why else would someone fail to read the Crown Heights Chronicle? (OK, now I AM joking)) jump into a discussion in which they have no place—about the need for an adequate election cycle—with irrelevant observations about the fact that the Crown Heights Chronicle wasn’t published during the Shomrim Six trial. I feel your pain, and I respect your sacrifice, as I wrote above, but, as I said, I had nothing to do with that, so do not attempt to suggest that I did, or that I do.
Again, I cannot keep responding to all this, and I do not intend to do so again. But it was obvious that you had misunderstood what I wrote, and I could not allow you to think I was belittling what you went through during that dark episode. I do not see eye-to-eye with the Shomrim on all matters, but I would not (G-d forbid)make a joke out of the suffering of my fellow Jews.
Sincerely,
–Yitzchok Wagshul
Inda Know
To “antimesira”:
Your pseudonym is a misnomer. Your remarks are not anti mesira but rather anti reason. Sure you (or whoever it was) were wrongfully prosecuted by a “blood liable”. Many others have been too. But rather than deal with the rest of the world realistically, you see a moser behind every rock and in everyone you disagree with, regardless of unrelated facts or the subject at hand. You are clearly suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and should seek professional help as soon as possible. If you continue to waste the next 15 years of your life a prisoner of your own angry state of mind, the actual mosrim, whoever they were, will have succeeded, by YOUR OWN HAND.
Selecting a third Rov, respected in the community, in a well prepared, well thought out election, will serve only to help prevent the injustice done to you from reoccurring to others. This is all that Yitzchok Wagshul is proposing above. Why do you oppose this? Perhaps instead of “antimesira” you should be named “misdirected”. I don’t have to ask what your agenda is. It’s obviously HATE! And during the 9 days too. You should be ashamed of yourself.
To #28
#28 – I enjoyed your comments (in an entertaining and amusing manner).
I would paraphrase a chazal: B’mokom sh’ain ish hishtadel livchor ishah, but during the serious time of the Nine days, we shouldn’t indulge in jest.
Women have a purpose and stature in Judaism, and it is not on the Bais Din of Crown Heights. Now that we saw your “lomdus” how about sharing some milchig Nine Days recipes?
anon
rabbi chaikin from cleavland for third rov!!
Chaim Hershkop Shomrim Six
“I would like to believe that even your adversaries—those who brought you to trial—were sincere and felt anguish over what they believed themselves compelled to do.”
I’m sorry Mr. Wagshel, come again , please explain the above statement. This is a new one.
Why do you believe this; what brought you to this believe?
Who are these adversaries you talk about?
what leave you to believe that were “sincere and felt anguish over”, did you speak to any of them, who did you speak to and what did he or they say?
Did they feel this anguish before the not guilty verdict or only after?
How do you explain then the pending lawsuit of $144 Million by Paul Huebner?
Please explain the above statement as if you were in the court of law in front of a jury of 12.
Mosrim are Mosrim!
So happens to be that Elie Polotrak the author of the subpoena which is “not a Mesira” now, is the same person who was very much involved in the shomrim Six trial. In fact as the time passes we discover that Mr. Polotrak had a much bigger role in the Mesira then initially thought.
Coincidental? I don’t think so.
A Mosser is a Mosser is a Mosser!
Chanina Sperlin as well was responsible for the arrest of 4 Jews in 2001 and was also one of those involved in the subpoena.
Chayim Ben Zalmon
Rabbi Shlomo Bluming would be a great rov for young & old.
Yitzchok Wagshul
Chaim, I cannot tell you what others believe; only what I would LIKE to believe. Please read more carefully next time.
taking action
I think what Mr. antimesira is clearly saying and totally understandable is as follows….
If when your fellow Jews blood was flowing the streets, a situation of Pekuach Nefesh you stood silence; you lost your voice; you didn’t have an opinion then; you didn’t care enough to say anything.
Then how much more so when it comes to much lessor matters, you should shut up as you did then.
Talk up when it really matters; talk up when it makes a difference. Otherwise we don’t need to hear your opinion.
Shea Hecht spoke out in times of pekuach nefesh, hes a guy I would take serious and respect what he might have to say.
Anybody who walked in to the fire when it was most hot, is somebody who I want to hear from. Anybody else is irrelevant.
Mr. Wagshul has nice excuses for not investigating, but all they are are nice excuses.
It’s like a off duty officer saying he did not stop a robbery or murder because he was off duty.
To Mr. Yitzhak Wagshul
As an out of towner, reading this “mess” in Crown Heights, I respect your article and your educated, logical reasoning. It is refreshing to read good spelling, real information and intelligent suggestions that make sense and are from the heart. I give you credit for continuing to respond to some of these silly (trying to be polite here) and sometimes incoherent comments. Keep up the good work and the educated suggestions. True LIGHT will shine through and rise to the top.
ZD
I live in Monsey and am affiliated with Chabad. I did live in Crown Heights. When I lived in Crown Heights I would always hear “YOu think this is bad, Satmar, other neighborhoods etc is worse.” Guess what, Satmar and other frum communities are not worse and I think it is time the Jews of Crown Heights admit this reality.
One morning last year right before I moved I saw cops having to break up a fight between two “political leaders” in front of the men’s mikveh on Kingston. Police guns were drawn and car sirens were blazing and Jews were threatening each other. If that is not bad enough I will add that this fight was happening while children were walking to school. And both sides felt they were right.
In the end sadly it will be the children of CH who will suffer. Lubavitch will survive, but the future of CH will not be so bright.
Yitzchok Wagshul
To # 38 and all the rest of you apes:
You know what? I can’t believe this! I wrote earlier that I respect and appreciate the Shomrim, and, when I read that a person who, presumably, is in the practice of endangering himself to protect me had been offended because he erroneously believed my wording had been directed at the Shomrim Six trial, I took the time and trouble to publicly apologize and to explain that I hadn’t been referring to that at all. Now I read this latest comment, that nevertheless continues to rant that I, a man who (like everyone else) has his own problems—the need to work so my children can eat, for example, or, in my case, a debilitating illness r”l—should nevertheless have quit my job, checked out of the hospital (I’m being dramatic: Boruch Hashem, I was not in the hospital at the time, but I wish to make my point as clearly as possible) and, at my own expense, published a newspaper and mailed it to everyone on the Tzach list so people could read about YOUR trial. What are you, crazy? Go publish your own newspaper, at your own expense!
What part of “I stopped publishing the Crown Heights Chronicle in 2006” didn’t you understand? I am not an “off duty officer”; I am not an officer at all. I now work as a professional writer and editor, and that’s how I try to solve the problem of food, rent, and all those other little problems you don’t seem to consider. As I clearly disclosed in the paper that I did recently publish, I was hired to write about the recent elections by clients who also paid the printing and mailing expenses. YOU did not come to me, as they did, during the Shomrim Six trial and say, “We wish to hire you to write about what’s going on; we’ll pay for your time and cover the costs.” Therefore, I could not do it. It’s as simple as that.
But the real shame of all this is that I have now changed my mind. I no longer have so much respect for the Shomrim after all. If you people are so unreasonable, if you can’t think straight and are only able to howl and snap and spew hatred at others, then you can’t be swayed by dialogue. Only force will work with apes like you. That lends credence to the possibility that, indeed, you were in the wrong during the incident in question, and the only way to deal with you turned out to be with badges and guns and handcuffs. I am not saying that is now my opinion of that incident—I don’t know any more about the objective facts now than I did before you ticked me off. But at least I now understand why some people might think you cannot be reasoned with. It’s because—as a matter of fact—you cannot be reasoned with.
And it’s not just me. I don’t know what would motivate you fools to keep howling at me even after I clarified—not that my original op-ed was unclear, or even had anything to do with you to begin with—that I happened to respect the Shomrim. But you did, in front of however many people read this blog (which, as far as I know, is a lot). So you have shown not just me, but the whole rest of the world (assuming this Shomrim-oriented blog allows this latest comment to be posted), what type of people you are. The only thing that might help change that perception is if you come forward and apologize to me, as I came forward and apologized to you.
But this time, don’t be such cowards: have the decency (like Chaim Hershkop does) to sign your names.
–Yitzchok Wagshul
Chaim Hershkop Shomrim Six
“37. Yitzchok Wagshul wrote:
Chaim, I cannot tell you what others believe; only what I would LIKE to believe. Please read more carefully next time.”
Your “LIKE to believe” is total fantasy and shows how you despite the facts would find some way to justify them.
Why would you like to believe this?
Facts:
The arrest took three weeks.
The Shomrim Six had to go to court for appearances for two years.
The Mosrim did not get any permission to do this Mesira.
The Mosrim were called to a Din Torah a day before trial and made a joke out of the Bais Din.
Chabad.info, A Meshichist web site gave the Shomrim six a guilty verdict without even knowing the facts.
There was no apology made, by anybody.
Nobody stepped forward to claim responsibility.
SO, what would lead you to “lIKE to believe”- “that they were sincere and felt anguish over what they believed themselves compelled to do.”?
Give us a little hint that would point us to this direction.
How is this fantasy connected to realty in anyway?
Another thing:
I, Chaim Hershkop did meet with you out side the polling stations on Tuesday, July 6, 2010. I discussed what I wrote above and you responded as you did above.
Since then you did not try to reach me, to inquire more about the going ons in court.
Even as we stood there talking all you were really interested in was what took place at 749 Eastern PKWAY on December 29, 2007. Which after a six week court case is not the issue. What took place that night (after a six week court case and after being found NOT GUILTY) is irrelevant now.
If I and my fellow Shomrim six would have a Din Torah about this issue, we would not even be discussing what took place that night. All of that was dealt with in court (for six long weeks…3000 pages of transcripts).
All you wanted was a reason to ”LIKE to believe that maybe they could have been justified to do this Mesira.
You can give excuses all you want why you didn’t come to court, all they are (as one wrote above) good excuses.
You don’t have a 9 to 5 job. The trial took place only blocks from Crown Heights. The trial was not exclusively for journalist and you could have shown up as a concerned person. Oh, did I mention that the case lasted for six long weeks. Did you not have an opportunity this whole time to show up for even an hour?
About your Op-Ed:
Where is the basic logic?
If one had a bomb to drop on a candidate running in an election, do you thing he would drop that bomb three weeks before?
No matter how long you extend an election, the real campaign will always be a few days or even hours before the elections.
And anyways how long does it take these days to come up with a responds and get it out there. Just as the other guy got the word out, so can you.
You are the best proof. You came out with a paper for the Mosrim side (days in advance). You said most of the things you are saying here and nonetheless your people lost.
Why are you crying foul now, is it because you lost, why do you think if you had more time things would be different?
Chaim Hershkop
“That lends credence to the possibility that, indeed, you were in the wrong during the incident in question, and the only way to deal with you turned out to be with badges and guns and handcuffs.”
Yes, yes yes!
Now you are speaking Mr. Wagshul.
The truth comes out.
All that had to be done was write a few comments and the venom start to explode ans splatter all over the place.
If only you were the prosecutor in our case.
Your honor members of the jury, these six people are guilty because they write comments, to make it worse they are unreasonable comments, lock them up and throw away the key.
You are right with one point. All these years my family have been prosecuted with mesira and propaganda for one and only reason.
FREE SPEACH. For speaking out. For saying it as it is. For that you and your Mossrim friends have been prosecuted.
Guess what, you will not shut me up. If this is my crime, then guilty as charged.
If the Mosrim hate me then I’m doing something very right!
My great grandfather died because he helped another Jew.
My grandfather spend 5 years in Siberia as a slave because he didn’t want another Jew to get in trouble. Those five years he stood by his brothers and stuck up for out G-d no matter the risk.
I stand ready!
Shimmy Cohen
When pushed a little, Yitzchok Wagshul confesses. He may claim the confession was given under duress, but confess he did. He doesn’t like Shomrim. He doesn’t consider them to be human beings – he calls them apes. Following that logic, what is wrong with massering on apes??? Human rules do not apply to apes!
The designation of apes goes far beyond actual members of shomrim. It captures anyone who supports or sympathizes with Shomrim. On a broader definition, anyone who disagrees with Wagshel is an ape and need not be treated as a human being. Humanistic rights (much less, Jewish rights) have no application to apes.
One more point. When Wagshul fails to articulate a point using logic or reason, he stoops to name calling. Seems like someone needs to grow up.
I don’t normally sign my name on blogs but I wish to save you from denigrating yourself further by calling me a coward or some other name.
-Shimmy Cohen
antimesira
Dear Mr. Wagshul:
Had you published this paper under some other name (perhaps Chanina Sperlin times or something), then we would not have a problem.
It would have been clear to all of us, what this paper is about.
Had you even written in the paper, this addition was paid for [fully] by Chanina Sperlin and friends, then we would understand and it would be expectable for what it is.
You did not do that. You took a paper which in the past was a community wide paper, you wrote it in YOUR NAME; presented it as your own.
Had your people won the elections you would have taken full credit… “I would LIKE to believe”, No?
So now take the credit for losing.
Also:
This is the first time you come out openly stating that you were hired. Till now you were pretending to be an independent, unbiased, open minded journalist.
If there are those who are wondering why this independent, unbiased, open minded journalist was not around at times of Pekuach Nefesh, I would LIKE to believe they are justified in thinking this way.
I definitely don’t think they deserve to be called names and get locked up for crimes they did not commit.
Have in mind, they are not the Mosrim here. Mesira is the worse offense a Jew can do. What have you say about the Mosrim one wounders?
Yitzchok Wagshul
By the way, I should have mentioned at the end of my last post that it is, in fact, my LAST post. You can all save yourselves the trouble of continuing to post things addressed to me, because, for the reasons I expressed, I am through with this and will not respond. Goodbye.
However—if there are any of you who are people of intelligence and good will, who wish to call me or introduce yourselves to me on the street and engage in a sincere discussion, you are welcome to do so. I am always receptive to hear what people have to say in good faith.
–Yitzchok Wagshul
Decency
Chaim! Thank you!
Well done.
Yitzchak is the best!
You stepped in it, Yitzchok.
Howsabout publishing your last comment as a news story?
You can title it, “Journalist goes rogue – my biases exposed”.
As I noted at the outset – zero credibility.
DON’T TELL ME YOU’RE NOT A PAID HACK. DON’T TELL ME – …
(Caps to exaggerate self righteous hypocrisy)
turnabout
I would like to think that you were not disbarred.
However, after reading your thin skinned temper tantrum, i can’t help but believe those who said you were.
Who Seed Watt
Disbarred attorneys are a matter of public record. Yitzhock Wagshul is not “disbarred”!
Dovid
The original article states that when you are elected to the Beis Din this is a lifetime position. That being said, what is the status of Rabbi Heller? If he is still on the Beis Din wont this Rov be the 4th rov on the Beis Din?
antimesira
“However—if there are any of you who are people of intelligence and good will, who wish to call me or introduce yourselves to me on the street and engage in a sincere discussion, you are welcome to do so. I am always receptive to hear what people have to say in good faith.
–Yitzchok Wagshul”
That would be a scary thing to do.
If you reacted the way you did because of a few comments, how will you react if we were to have these discussions in the street, face to face, are you going to punch me in the face if I “tick you off”?
awacs
“9. moshe der g wrote:
” … he is also a disbarred lawyer….“
Incorrect; he was suspended for three years, see:
http://tinyurl.com/2evrf54
As any N.Y. lawyer can tell you, this is a BIG difference.
And, if you dig down far enough, you find that his aveiros would be mitzvos by most people. Basically, he put personal money in his escrow account.
Nachman ”originator of the phrase ‘Shomrim Six'” Ziskind
MaDDinBklyn
Bravo Bravo to Chaim Hershkop, well played and beautiful outcome, with a few strokes on a keyboard you exposed the pure evil hatred of a thin skinned supposedly religous big bearded Jewish pretender, indeed Mr. Wagshul claims to have sold his soul for a few dollars pay, but in reality he gave it away for free. Into the pit for Mr Wagshul the silver tougued snake, into the pit he must go.