To’eiva Marriage Now Legal in New York
Toeiva marriage is legal in New York State. Governor Cuomo, a strong proponent of “equality,” stalwartly pursued its passage, making it his signature legislative achievement. Unlike Assemblyman Dov Hikind’s false assumptions that the New York Assembly doesn’t have the votes, it passed the Democratic-led Assembly by a large margin, and the Republican-led Senate didn’t do anything to stop the bill. The bill still faces many hurdles, and we should not yet surrender; however, as the headlines proclaimed, New York now became the beacon of darkness for the entire nation regarding this matter.
Orthodox Jews vehemently opposed the bill. Agudath Israel of America issued a statement declaring a must to defeat a “bill [that] is both morally and legally unacceptable, and [one which can] (could) lead to serious negative consequences”. The Orthodox Union released a declaration clarifying Jewish stance on this issue. “[Immoral] behavior between males or between females is absolutely forbidden by Jewish law, beginning with the biblical imperative, alluded to numerous times in the Talmud and codified in the Shulchan Aruch,” it stated.
Family values have always taken center stage in Judaism, as it is one of the Ten Commandments. The Torah classifies Toeiva-marriage as an abomination and strictly punishes one who violates the prohibition with the severe penalty of death. Furthermore, the Midrash states that legalizing such repulsive acts can endanger the entire society. “The generation of the Flood was not wiped out until they wrote the marriage documents for the union of a man to a male or to an animal,” declares the Midrash.
Yet, as the Toeiva community trumpets the “victory,” some in the Jewish community fail to realize the effect a redefined marriage will have on their personal lives. They believe that as long as Jews obey the laws of the Torah and don’t engage in such acts, it is acceptable to permit it. They’re afraid that such “discrimination” will eventually be used against them to undo much of the human rights that Jews and minorities enjoy nowadays.
Theodore Olson, a former solicitor general under George W. Bush, sued California over Proposition 8 – a ballot measure banning gay marriage in the state constitution. In his opening statement he declared: “… the right to marriage as one of the most vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness, a basic civil right, a component of the constitutional rights to liberty, privacy, association, an intimate choice, an expression of emotional support and public commitment, the exercise of spiritual unity, and the fulfillment of one’s self.” Thus, the question lingers: should we look the other way. All they really want is just some liberty and freedom, right?
Wrong.
An infamous circumcision ban is currently brewing for San Francisco. According to reports, Lloyd Schofield – the man behind the initiative – became interested in the topic after seeing the Bay Area Intactivists marching in the Pride Parade a few years back and has since become an “intactivist” himself. His pretense, of course, is “equal protection,” but his objective is obvious: if he’s truly for liberty, why would he restrict people from performing religious duties and customs?
The Jewish community ought to lament about a bill that purely rejected religion. There’s a connection between the marriage bill and the circumcision ban; they both offend religion. If it is freedom that they are seeking, why don’t they lobby for polygamy? Is zoophilia next? Marriage is between a man and a woman and the “activists” know it. They are simply anti-religion, hence their efforts. As Sen. Ruben Diaz righteously declared, “God, not Albany, settled the issue of marriage a long time ago.” The bill is a direct assault on religion and the religious. Although religious exceptions were placed in the bill, it is a matter of years until it will be challenged. We should ask ourselves: “should we wait until a circumcision ban is introduced in New York?”
TorahYid100
Don’t like same-gender marriage? Don’t get one. Problem solved.
Must have missed something ...
“some in the Jewish community fail to realize the effect a redefined marriage will have on their personal lives.”
Wait, I got to the bottom of the article and I still haven’t figured out how this will effect my personal life …
chaim
What’s wrong with writing the words “gay marriage”? Also, your use of the word inactivist sounds very unmature.
160
I found the title of this article, as well as the multiple references to the “Toevah community” insulting and unnecessary. While I may have personal qualms about the legalization of gay marriage, I respect homosexuals and their need to be honest about their own sexuality. Considering the number of boys and girls, men and women from the Orthodox community who are gay, alienating them with the label of “Toevah” is heart-wrenching.
Duby L.
‘toievah?’ — are we afraid of the word “gay” or “homosexual?” ???
me
Why didn’t Lubavitch protest this? The shluchim should have banded and been in the forefront against this legislation that legitimizes a prohibition of the Torah, for Jews and non-Jews. Lubavitch and other Jewish groups could have put more pressure on lawmakers not to have this passed.
also a fan
Is same-sex marriage by non-Jews against halacha? I don’t remember hearing about that being one of the sheva mitzvos. Marriage between non-Jews in general doesn’t seem to mean anything in Halacha, either.
If it’s not against Halacha, how can it be a To’eiva? Please remember that I’m talking about non-Jew–non-Jew couples here.
Delph
Mr. Hirsch writes, “The bill still faces many hurdles, and we should not yet surrender.” This would imply that someone is / or will do something to fight the bill, and that Mr. Hirsch is part of that.
The article doesn’t mention any movement or hishtadlus to fight the bill. If there is some, I would have been interested to hear about it. If not, a clarity of thought is important to understand lack of any such resources on our side.
I don’t have a solution, and I appreciate the article. My point is just that it is important to see things for what they are. Cheering from the sidelines has no influence in the real world – and you can’t ‘not surrender’ when there is no fight in the first place.
iZZY
organize start a dump Cuomo movement get the nams of all the democRATS and republicans who voted for this bill and start campaign to oust them in the next election Fight fight fight! to get this abomination repealed ASAP
ARYEH
each person to their own,gay ppl should have the same rights as anyone else if u dont like it dont get it but dont bash other ppl for what they do its none of ur buisness religon has its own faults we are not living in the dark ages where everything is based upon a rabbi we can think for ourselves choose our own path, unless of course there is no freedom of choice by gd so that whould be two faced im glad ny finnaly voted in gay marriage so please lets fix our own faults before going ahead and bashing ppl for what they belive or feel
levi
Someone ought to propose lelalization of marriage between brother and sister, or father and son. I do not see the difference
Laaniyas Dayti
It appears that commenter #1 has no children whose chinuch and atmosphere he is concerned with. Nor is he in a relationship that can generate any.
On the political angle: Coumo has now proclaimed himself Lemming in Chief. He is successfully surfing the last wave (call it gasp, if you wish) of liberal dominance in US politics and society. He has cooked the goose of a run for President. I for one, am amazed that he didn’t read the writing on the wall. He may have won a battle, but the entire country now sees him in a radical corner. In fact, even the state may swing more conservative against this.
mendelbaum
call it what it is gay marriage…why toeiva? why is this gay sickness worse then all other vermins we have…i dont think its our place to protest….
Andrea Schonberger
Let’s not get all excited. The new law gives gay and lesbian couples the right to contract a civil marriage just like straight couples. As far as I know there’s nothing in it that would force/compel a Rabbi to marry any couple, gay, lesbian, or straight, against his own personal convictions–state and religion are still seperate, as it should be.
RK
these people just think they are going to immortalize themselves by doing something unprecedented.
its just sad.
Please Explain
Why do we care what the Goyim do?
Isn’t idol worship and atheism legal in the U.S. aren’t those the most important of the 7 Mitzvos?
Art Skell
Why must you pander to hate-mongers and call this “Toeiva”? Can’t you grow up and be part of the 21st Century? This is not 19th Century Poland. Stop the hate, get used to gays, they are all over the Frum community – only hidden. Maybe these marriages will keep gay Rabbis from molesting boys. Maybe there should be a BAN on marrying your first cousin… why don’t you fight that ABOMINATION?
An open mind (if i dare)
I don’t see how this effects any of you in any which way..
These people are doing what they are doing regardless!
The only ting that changed is that for “legal purposes” and “marriage benefits” they are now equal..
This won’t encourage regular people to start playing for the other team, it already exists whether you like it or not!
And you know there wont be a “Same-gender” marriage taking place in Oholei Torah anytime soon…
Don’t see why they cant get married and be miserable like the rest of us :)
#6
we already have that in the south LOL
but its the core issue here, our gov is bound by the seperation bet church and state. same sex marriage is a religious issue so obviously it will cause an uproar, but ppl must realize that everyone isnt religious. get over it. in two weeks no one will care.
Mushkie
I can understand that you are upset but comparing same sex marriage to incest and bestiality is ridiculous and frankly outrageous.
concerned
this is all part of a gay agenda…first it was small parts in television shows and then movies and the media played right into their hands.. we accepted the small inroads and then they had the opportunity for same sex marriages……..the author of this article is 100% correct when he infers it will have effects on us……..we even see the media coming out with some attacks on orthodox jews with movies about gay chassidic jews……..we need to realize this is a threat to us and to all family values…..
put yourself in their shoes
why can’t everyone just chill about this whole thing? so what? some people are gay. why can’t you just let them be gay? they should have the freedom to do what they want, shouldn’t they?
just because you can’t understand them or how they feel or what they want, doesn’t give you any right to be against them and say how wrong and immoral it is.
jj
the filthy animals have taken over new york. absolutely despicable.
Impeach Cuomo now!
Cuomo is an arrogant, evil bum.
Who is he to talk about ‘marriage’ when he is openly living in sin (without being married) with a woman? The same with Bloomberg.
He will pay a heavy price for this rebellion against G-d.
declasse intellectual
1) Where was this newssite and why were the Jewish leaders of this community not speaking out and urging their representatives to vote down this bill. Now it is like crying over spilt milk.
2)Although there are provisions in the bill supposidly protecting religious groups from sanctioning any actions with this group, is there real protection for Rabbis who refused to associate with these people and perform marrages, from halls who refuse to hold their events, for adoption agencies who do not accept their life style. Massachusetts has not protection for those who object to this practice–how secure are those provisions in the bill.
3)Has anythign been done to protect the community from the evential onslaught that will come against it and its religious practice. After all there are attacks upon Bris and Shetiah elsewhere in the United States and the world. Or will this community and othetr community keeps their heads in the sand.
yankel
The community council of Crown Heights should have told our State senator and assemblyman in Albany to vote against it.For some reason Chanina Sperlin has no problem with gays, i wonder why.
Where doed it hurt?
The orthodox marriages of Jews are a model all the world should behold. Our perfect record of no divorces, no adultery and no family abuse is certainly far better then any gay marriage could attain.
Anyone who believes that is unfortunately still living in the dark ages.
Fellow Jews where does it hurt you to see another law abiding human being happy in a loving relationship? If you are in a loving relationship why would you want to deny this to another person of g-ds creation.
David
The issue of circumcision was an issue that had to do with health risks, and although I do agree with you that it seems as though it’s an attack on religious freedom, gay marriage is not related to that subject.
At the same time, comparing gay marriage to incest (father/son, brother/sister, is not only wrong, but completely insensitive. Two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they like to do behind closed doors, and just by telling someone that they’re gay doesn’t mean their “flaunting” their sex life to you.
Gay have the right to live the way they would like to just like we as Jews want to live freely. It’s not fair to say that because OUR beliefs find it offensive, people can’t live their lives freely and be happy in this country that proclaims freedom.
If you take a second and think about it, how does this really ‘REDEFINE’ marriage? Hetero couples will still get married as usual, and the gay community which is only 10 percent of the world (proven statistic) will live the way they would like just as we live the way we like to in our respective communities.
Just my two cents
Gay Fife Un
I heard they opened a new chassune hall for these kinds of weddings.
It’s called Ateres Feygele!
disgusted & disappointed
To # 2It does have a effect on Everyone you are just not seeing it yet! To #3 why didn’t they protest? Because they don’t want any more negative publicity such as the fact that some in our very own community are part of the life style whether sit is someone’s son daughter or even a father & Grandfather maybe even your neighbor?
She yaishvu Ba sheked & maybe no one will find out etc.!
the effects
This bill does not change anyones ability and rights of whom to marry it merely changes the amount of money that they will get back on their tax return and other such trivial man-made governmental laws
Heard from a Lubavitcher
He got very angry at some gay group, gathered across the street from him. A verbal confrontation occured,
and the leader of the group came to the house
and said something like,“I know you don’t approve
of my lifestyle, but please, let’s not have hatred.
It’s because of such hatred that 6 million Jews were killed…” When this gay (guy?) left, the Lubavitcher said,
“Even Hitler had redeeming value. He killed the gays.”
Yossel
For those who can’t see how gay marriage (men) affects them personally, our Sages taught that such practice leads to the disintegration of society.
When a society collapses into wild hedonism, as Rome did during and after the Churban, much Jewish blood was spilled (may Hashem comfort us!), it was truly a HORRIBLE time for our nation. Read some of Roman and Greek-era Jewish history, such as Rabbi Avigdor’s Torah nation, and Our People, and you will see the horror that a society that honors hedonism perpetuated on the Jewish nation. We really need to WAKE up to this evil!!
A.A.
Open your eyes, you silly people.
Having this medieval discourse does not do good to our own children.
Spreading hatred and closing our minds to the real world is not really our job down here.
As a shliach who’s mekurovim sometimes come on here to see what’s new in Chabad, I am embarassed.
Because part of my job is to help Yidden, some of which are gay, to keep “noch a mitzvah”. And when they see this, it is not helpful.
Homophobia is not a jewish value, the Rebbe took everibody in with a big smile and a yomin mekareves.
Think about the following gemoro:
Rabbi Elozor son of Azariah said: From where do we know that a person should never say “I am disgusted by pork, I can’t bear to wear forbidden mixed fabrics”, rather that he should say “I would quite like to, though what can I do, as my Father in heaven has ordained otherwise”.
Let us not mix our emotions and prejudices, which are not always lefi hakaono, with what the Torah really wants.
Our frume yetzer horo (see last shabbos’s Hayom Yom) pushes us to reject these people, when it is not at all in our interest.
To-eiva?
Stop calling it “To’eiva”. I keep on thinking oyu mean a bill legalizing shellfish consumption — which the Torah also calls “To’eiva”.
to # 25
“ is there real protection for Rabbis who refused to associate with these people and perform marrages, from halls who refuse to hold their events, for adoption agencies who do not accept their life style. Massachusetts has not protection for those who object to this practice–how secure are those provisions in the bill.”
Those protections exist, please refer to the first amendment for more details.
Nobody
A.A., you are wrong about the Gemara. That only applies to Chukim. You would never find it acceptable to say “I want to worship Avoda Zarah, but what can I do as my Father in Heaven has ordained otherwise.”
How can you so mean-spirited?
To JJ and #the Lubavitch mentioned in #32, I think it is pathetic that you refer to human beings as “filthy animals” and say that Hitler’s redeeming action was killing gay people. I happen to be the proud aunt of a young woman who is gay. She is a sweet, compassionate, sensitive, loving, intelligent person who has discovered her sexual identity as gay. What bothers you so much that you want her dead? What bothers you so much that she reminds you of a filthy animal? I think that what is despicable is your hateful comment. I also think that your condoning Hitler’s execution of ANYONE is horrible. I feel ashamed that another Jew would express such hatred and ugliness. You are very hurtful in your expression of ignorance.
To #20 and 28
#20 and 28 both made the claim that it’s outrageous to compare this to incest. neither gave even the slightest reason why they are different. calling something outrageous does not make it so. this is exactly the same as incest-a relationship between consenting adults that “doesn’t harm” anyone else.
also to #28: they are actually more like 2-3%. so much for your “proven statistic”.
toaiva
bh
the reason you should insist on calling it toaiva is becouse thats what toras emes calls it
to #35 36 and 38
To #36 you are ignorant about this. do you know that there are laws already that ban discrimination based on orientation. and fyi there are currently at least 4 judges on the US supreme court that would allow prosecution for this and the 5th(anthony kennedy) could easily side with them.
To #38 just because someone is a sweet and sensitive person does not mean everything they do is good. and btw the torah only calls 2 men toeivah-2 women is assur dirabannan.
To #35 shellfish is only assur to jews; mishkav zachar is assur for goyim as well
www.FreeTalmud.com
B“H
Rights or Ills:
Publisher’s Foreword
The persistent problem of the so called Amendment to ”Local Law 2“ has been plaguing some people for several years. Although this problem has much wider national and international ramifications, the New York version of this problem has taken on a strange political hue.
During the Purim Farbrengen (gathering) of 5746, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Shlita, addressed this issue. He touched upon the fundamental problem, its social, emotional and health risks, its psychological manifestations and its actual threat to society and individuals.[1]
At the same time, the Rebbe suggested clear-cut remedies and proposed a humane therapeutical approach, which takes account of the seriousness of the problem and still remains cognizant of the important aspect of self-respect and self-esteem of many men and women.
Finally, the Rebbe urged to stop naming this issue an issue of ”rights” – but to see it and treat it for what it really is – a serious physical, mental and spiritual problem which needs immediate help from concerned, devoted and compassionate people. The Rebbe expressed the hope that this issue will be reexamined in its true light and be dealt with accordingly.
This Essay is excerpted from the Rebbe’s sicha (discussion), in a free translation by the publishers.
Sichos In English
21st Day of Iyar, 5746
More here: http://www.sichosinenglish….
It is wrong
Mr. Crownheights.info, by using the word “to’eva” you are moving from a site that reports the news to a site that engages in name calling, and personal attacks against people you don’t even know. Whatever the Torah says about something is between an individual and his creator, human beings have to behave with respect with one another. By continuing to use the term “to’eva” you are showing complete and utter disrespect to people simply because you disagree with a personal aspect of their life which should not concern you in the slightest.
In Crown Heights people are treated with respect no matter what their level of Torah observance is. On this site people are called nasty names because editors don’t approve of their lifestyle. Please stop this behavior.
Streight:
David, your missing the point. You say two consenting adults should have the right to do whatever they want behind closed doors.
What you’re lacking is belief in God. What if God doesn’t consent to the deal between the two? Do they still have the right to do as they please?
That will depend on whether or not God exists.
What do you think?
TorahYid100
How will gay people getting married be a problem for our atmosphere or chinuch? We are incredible isolated from society and our children are sheltered in a very serious way. Gay people are unknown to our children and their ability to marry isn’t even on their radar (or should I say gaydar?).
disgusted & disappointed
there is R“l much to be upset at with this & worse yet there are members of our community who either themselves or relatives are openly flaunting their approval & active participation in this very lifestyle one of them is a father of 10 children who publicly on facebook etc. proclaims to be frum even shows his picture with his beard etc. yet lives openly with a goy in the same apt. is openly for & involved in the To’aiva lifestyle& proud of it.We have a obligation to fight against it continue to chastise those individuals involved etc. these individuals are Mechalel shem shamayaim in public Mechalel frum yidden everywhere & mechalel shem Lubavitch & worst of all The Rebbe regardless of whether you hold & believe & hold of the Rebbe as MH”m or not! This is a serious & ongoing issue & these people at the very least must be driven underground etc
Nobody
I wonder if all of those who view this as not affecting them think that Avraham Avinu should have looked at the world’s Idol Worship in his time as not affecting him and not have bothered to try to change anyone’s mind?
TorahYid100
#44 firstly, learn how to spell and write properly. secondly, why are you so focused on other people’s bedroom.
you are most likely a closet case gay. mind your own business. focus on not walking between parked cars and clearing your sidewalk of snow, ya complaining idiot.
based on what i’ve read so far all of you, well- most of you need to do much tishuva over your remarks about others.
Yechihamelech
Att: Torahyid100: good burn
Toeivah it is, we follow Torah, not PC
Toeiva is what it is and is an appropriate way to refer to it.
One of the things the toeivaniks did in their campaign to legitimize their deviant way of life was to invent names for themselves that don’t sound bad or sound good, limoshol ‘gay’, which used to mean happy. They hijacked the word and adopted it for themselves. When people use their
preferred expressions, they unwittingly help the toeiva agenda. That is why we shouldn’t use them.
Another example is s***** orientation. They promote that because it implies that their behavior is not a choice. Instead the term preference should be used because it implies that their toeivah is a choice.
It is disappointing to see Lubavitcherss here claiming that this is not a problem, that it should be tolerated, etc., chas vesholem. This shows how lost they have become without a Rebbe. Being more involved with the outside world than other Chassidim, they are more vulnerable to outside propaganda, and this shows that it has taken it’s toll on them.
A Gay Man is Nisht a Freilicher Mensch
Homosexuality is a disease. Those who L“A R”L suffer from it should be storming Congress for a cure, the way yenne machle sufferers, sufferers from spinal cord injury, and ALS sufferers do. You don’t even need Torah to tell you that this cannot possibly be anything normal.
Instead, somewhere along the way, someone decided to celebrate this disease and turn it into a lifestyle. As happens with other social ills such as those that cropped up in the 1960’s, others went along, and now we have a lifestyle instead of a disease.
Gays are not happy. I have had contact with gays in the business world, including one who is now very successful financially and unfortunately also very active in toeva advocacy. You can tell they are wired wrong in some way and that they are really not happy at all.