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Vaccine Developer Urges Orthodox Jews to Vaccinate

A doctor who developed the measles vaccine recently urged members of ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities to vaccinate their children, noting that those communities who refused the 50-year-old vaccine were linked to a third of US measles cases last year.

The Times of Israel reports that Dr. Samuel Katz, the last surviving member of the team of researchers that developed the measles vaccine 50 years ago, believes it is “ludicrous” that parents do not vaccinate their children against measles.

The Center for Disease Control announced on December 5 that there were a total of 175 cases of measles in the United States in 2013, tripling of the annual average.

Fifty-eight of those reported cases were among Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn’s Boro Park and Williamsburg neighborhoods. It was the largest outbreak of measles in the US since 1996. The CDC reported that the cause of the outbreak last spring in Hasidic Brooklyn was an unvaccinated 17-year-old who was infected with the disease after a trip to England.

Among the Brooklyn cases, 21 percent were among children too young to have the MMR vaccine. Twenty-eight cases in Boro Park were members of three extended families who had refused to vaccinate their children.

Every day, 430 children die of measles worldwide. There were an estimated 158,000 measles deaths in 2011.

Dr. Katz Katz was the 2003 winner of the Albert B. Sabin Gold Medal awarded by the Sabin Vaccine Institute for his contributions to vaccine discoveries during his career, and is currently the Chairman Emeritus of Pediatrics at Duke University.


In related news: NYC Board of Health Mandates Flu Shots for All Pre-School Children

From CBS New York:

Children who go to preschool or daycare in New York City will now be required to get flu shots.

The Board of Health voted Wednesday in favor of the mandatory vaccine for children under 6. The new rule takes effect in 30 days and will be required for about 150,000 children.

Connecticut and New Jersey are the only two states in America with mandatory flu shots for children in daycare. The measure passed Wednesday by the Board of Health would only apply to New York City and not the rest of New York state.

Children in daycare and preschool are already required to get vaccinated against illnesses such as measles and chicken pox. City officials believe the latest initiative adds another layer of protection for children and those who come in contact with them.

Parents who are strongly opposed to the initiative could avoid the mandated vaccines by sending their children to a state preschool or daycare. Parents may also opt out for medical and religious reasons.


  • To All Caring Parents

    Always research thoroughly before vaccinating your child.
    Check out what the vaccine contains in it. You have the full right to request any withheld information from your doctor.
    Please Don’t vaccinate blindly.

    May Hashem the real healer send complete refuah to all that need!

    • Citizen Berel

      Citizen Berel researches before he vaccinates. He says “Dr. G. Dr. Rosen…do you recommend we do this. Will you do it for your family?”

      Ok, then.

      But maybe this is your place to shine!

    • Milhouse

      What are you looking for when you want to know what the vaccine contains? Are you concerned about ingredients that your child might be allergic to? If your child has unusual allergies, your doctor should be aware of them and should already be looking for this. Suppose you had the full list of ingredients, would it mean anything to you? How would you determine that some ingredient is not to your liking?

      Vaccinating against diseases like measles is a no-brainer. The vaccine is well-tested and much safer than the disease, and that’s all you need to know. Refusing to vaccinate your children means exposing them to the disease, and also endangering everyone else around them. There are no valid concerns about the measles vaccine, and no valid reason not to vaccinate, unless your child has a specific condition that makes it inadvisable (e.g. an allergy).

    • Kiva

      The doctors and scientists have done all the research there is to do and have unanimously reached the conclusion that vaccines are completely safe for nearly all children (the exception being extremely rare allergies).

      Exactly what will a parent discover by doing their own research? That there are crazy people online who spout conspiracies about vaccines?

      Would you recommend that people not use antibiotics or have heart surgery until they did their own research because some crazy person online said that there was something wrong with that?

    • Shotbyshot,org

      when you were dying of pneumonia did you read all the side affects on the antibiotics bottle or the ingredients that you could not pronounce let alone decide if its safe for you or not. Let the public helath & safety experts do thier job & stop becoming an 18th century conspiracy theorist that the government is trying to harm all the worlds children. Stop endagering all your/ my children & ill the sick cancer children that cannot get vaccinated. Stop being a selfish brat.

  • Anonymous

    Can’t wait to hear from Milhouse. The last time he was writing like he was a dictator and telling people to vaccinate.

    • Milhouse

      If a dicator is what it will take to get you to vaccinate your children and save their lives, then maybe you need a dictator. But I’m not the one. I don’t believe in dictators. You have the right to endanger your child, if you insist. But you do not have the right to bring your unvaccinated child into school or the playground to spread his germs to others. All schools should refuse to enroll unvaccinated children unless they have a good reason, e.g. allergies.

    • Milhouse

      1. There is no mercury

      2. When there was mercury, it davka made the vaccine healthier, by preserving it better. You don’t want a spoiled vaccine. But in any case they took it out years ago because stupid parents complained about it, so you can stop complaining.

  • those that dont vaccinate are just plain selfish

    vaccines are the safest invention modern medicine has ever produced saves alot more lives then ant antibiotic only 1000 times safer. do these non vaccinators ever use antibiotics??????

    or do they rather die naturaly pneumonia etc.

    • Agreed!

      There are people who survive cancer only to get sick again because of selfish people in schools and communities who refuse to vaccinate for no valid reason! These poor children are not able to get the vaccines and so it is our duty to protect them (and our own children!!) from these harmful, and c”v deadly diseases.


    Who ever ignorantly campaigns against vaccinating read how many preventabile deaths you have contributed to…….

    think again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • save our children

    I used to be scared of vaccinating until my friends son almost died of pneumococal pneumonia which would not have happened had they given him the shots. I was shown the PICU full of vaccine preventable meningitis & pneumonias & pertusis from foullish parents that felt intimidated by the ignorant nay sayers. I now trust the professionals the CDC, NIH, AAP &FDA . I am know scared to let my kids be near any one who does not vaccinate their kids

  • Its time to mandate vacines in all our schools

    who ever wants to be selfish. keep your kids home or make your own school.

  • Halachah says:

    Just like in a complicated halachic issue you would ask a competent Rov and not rely on your own ‘research’.
    Just like in legal matters you would ask a good lawyer and not rely on your own ‘research’.
    So too in medical issues Torah says you should listen to a competent doctor!

    • Halacha also says...

      that if everyone in the room is hot, and one person is cold, you must close the window. If the torah is so concerned about someone feeling chilly, surely you must do what you can so as not to kill another child by not vaccinating your kids

  • vaccination is verry important for our safety

    When you need your car fixed you ask a mechanic & not the baker. When you need your shoes repaired you go to the shoe maker. you get were I am heading. The anti vaccine people may be screaming loud. But that does not mean that the one who speaks louder speaks the truth.

    The facts are all the World expert organizations in the field of children’s health not just in the USA agree that vaccinating your children against the deadly diseases is very safe and protects against very dangerous diseases.

    Who are these experts you may ask? The primary experts are the Center for Disease Control, The Food and Drug administration,The National institute of health, there are also many more the likes of American Academy of pediatrics,The American Academy of family physicians and all the infectious disease societies. Each of the first 3 I listed Independently review & have studied each vaccine to the most fine detail for over 25 years before its released. they are studied more then any antibiotic or for that matter any medication ever invented. They then continue to monitor & reassess each vaccine closely after its released for as long as it is licenced they continue to fine tune it. May be the anti vaccine should refuse to give thier kids life saving medications next after all it is not studied as well and clearly has alot more side affects. like antibiotics for pneumonia or MRSA.

    If every body would vaccinate for a given disease and it gets completely eradicated from the world, like for example small pox did. then they stop that vaccine from being used as it is unnecessary. They also lower the strength of any vaccine not needed as it is diminsihing or do to even mild side affects like the polio shot they reduced when its prevelence declined significantly. they would have probable stoped it by now but do to the non vaccinators we all suffer and it still exists. We are all in this boat together called infectious disease, one cannot ethically state well i will make a whole under my seat and say leave me a lone because of what is called herd immunity vaccines do not effectively eradicate disease when significant segments of the population don’t vaccinate. They in essence harm all of us.

    MMR and autism is a no brainier. there have been over 14 major studies refuting that and the Lancet which first published that claim from Mr wackfield approximately 25 yrs ago apologized profusely many times over as it was so clear that he fabricated all the data as he was working for a law firm trying to make money, after it was investigated it was clear the kids in his study all realy had autism before. To the point that England pulled his medical licence. But this low life that lied & cheated for his own pocket is now the hero of the anti vaccine people. how ironic they believe such a proven low life keep repeating his lies over all the professional medical societies the world over that care about our children & vaccinate their own children. Why don’t the Anti vaccine people bring their kids when C”V they get Pneumonia, Meningitis, epiglottis, pancreatitis etc to former Dr wakfield instead of going to Columbia, Cornell, NYU or CHOP and all the best hospitals in our country were they all strongly support and advocate vaccinating our children. Why has the head of one of the most prestigious pediatric hospitals department of infectious disease Dr paul Offit of THE CHILDRENS HOSPITAL OF PENSYLVANIA need private security because his life has been threatened by the anti vaccine people for speaking out. No wonder REAL doctors are afraid to speak out against the anti vaccine peoples nonsense.

    But you may ask why do we give something even if there is the slightest risk of any adverse affect to 1 in a 10 million. The answer is it is 1000 times less of a risk then any time you cross a street. or 100,000 times less of a risk of your child having an allergic reaction to peanut butter with no medical benefit. Yes I have seen unvacinated children, get severe vaccine preventable pneumonia’s, meningitis, pancreatitis, infertility from orchitis, I have even seen polio. yet when its out of sight. its out of mind. so people WOULD RATHER BELIEVE THE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS THAT HAVE FOUND AN OUTLET TO BLAME THERE TRAGIC CHILD’S ILLNESS. They actually continue to repeat the same old fabrications about wakfield that have long been disproven. they even believe that their insurance company wanting to pay for their child vaccines which costs them over $ 10,000 a child is a government conspiracy. to give their child a disease like autism. i ask you which government or insurance company would want to pay twice once for the vaccines $10,000 plus dollars and then again to take care of the illness the vaccine will cause.

    I once meet a 35 year old visiting from Israel he was paralyzed, a paraplegic. i said to him this looks like polio how did such a young man contract this? He answered as he broke down and cried, my mom & many of the neighbors in our building in a shikun in Israel 33 years ago decided that the polio vaccine was unsafe and unimportant. Then one day dozens of children developed a mysterious virus, many died and he was from the lucky survivors.

    The choice is yours you can trust the conspiracy theorists or the real medical expert organizations and societies the world over that care about your children.

  • Those that say that parents who don't vaccinate are just plain selfish.

    Are Ignorant and NOT INFORMED.
    Why would you call parents who don’t vaccinate “selfish”, while they are the ones who actually research before they inject their dear children. They read and inform themselves before handing over their newborn baby to the doctor, to have him injected with numerous vaccinations containing heavy metals and chemicals.

    The MMR vaccine contains:
    sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin, chick embryonic fluid, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue, to mention just a few.

    For all those who are uninformed and find it hard to do some research, here is a full list of vaccines and the ingredients they contain:

    Take some time, and make an informed choice!

    • Citizen Berel

      So many icky icky ingredients.

      OH MY G-D!

      I will research each and every vaccine and avoid any that contain icky ingredients.

      Informed choice means to pretend there are no doctors who, you know…, know about this stuff, and read ingredient labels posted to the internet.

      No more lazy for me.

    • Milhouse

      These parents don’t inform themselves, they misinform themselves.

      Yes, the vaccine has those ingredients. So what? What makes you think they are at all unhealthy? You’re just guessing. There’s no reason to avoid those ingredients, unless your child is allergic to them.

    • You may delay vaccines

      but you need to give them eventually! Especially before leaving the country or going somewhere like NY where there are so many people from all over the world. You should have a good doctor who you can discuss the pros and cons of which vaccines to give first, and create a vaccine schedule. BE REPONSIBLE! Don’t just say it’s too much and not give them any!

  • To #8



    • Dr. Obvious

      A major benefit of widespread vaccine use is “herd immunity,” meaning that since the vast majority of individuals are immune to the illness, it’s harder to spread and take root in an area.

      This presents two other benefits:

      1) An individual for whom the vaccine does not prevent the illness, due to incorrect administration, weakened immune system, or other, is less likely to become infected as there is less likelihood of coming in contact with a carrier.

      2) It becomes more difficult for the virus to mutate into a vaccine-resistant variety, due to lower overall prevalence. This is especially useful, as a vaccine-resistant virus is (obviously) quite difficult to treat and contain.

      Modern vaccines are essentially risk free, and any risks far outweigh the immediate and life-threatening risks of not vaccinating. Vaccinate yourself and your kids, for your sake, for their sake, and for the sake of others.

    • Milhouse

      Yes, you are confused. Very confused. No vaccine is 100% effective. Vaccinating my child is like putting him in a bullet-proof vest. Your putting your unvaccinated disease-ridden child next to him is like shooting at him. Yes, he’s wearing a vest, so there’s an excellent chance that your bullets will not harm him, but that doesn’t excuse you for shooting, and if chas vesholom one bullet gets through you will have murdered him.

  • Facts or feelings?

    I would love to have a lecture or debate about the facts on this issue for once. I was once asked to be part of one as the ‘pro-vaccine’ side since I was a medical student. I did some hours of research and backed down.
    I practice pediatrics in a frum neighborhood and see both (and more) sides to this. I vaccinate those wanting it and also see the adverse effects, and read all I could find on the topic.

    If anyone wants to arrange a presentation on this I would love to be a part of it. If enough email me that they are interested I will try arranging something.

    Contact email:

    • Dr. Obvious

      I find it hard to believe that you are a medical doctor and see adverse effects to vaccination. I know that sick kids are good for business, but do what’s right. Vaccinate.

    • I dont undersand you

      If you dont believe in vaccines then why do you give them to your patients. If you do give them, then I suppose you either want to be trendy to sound attractive to the anti vaccine patients you want to attract for business by talking hogwash that you have seen adverse affects of vaccines like what it needs to be in the context of a real double blind study & you and the rest of the anti vaccine clowns have yet to show any real studies proving any real harm of vaccinations. For non vaccinating there is lots of evience to the ill affects. Yossi with all do respect i dont think reading propaganda on line is a way to educate yourself properly i hope thats not what they tought you for 2 years at sophie davis. The real medical infectious disease experts the likes of Dr Paul Offit who have been doing this will make a fool out of you at a debate

    • Milhouse

      There is nothing to debate. ALL the truth is on the pro-vaccine side, and the anti-vaccine side has nothing at all but wicked lies and fantasies.

    • I dont bielieve your are real physician

      yossi all you need is one patient to file suit because their infant died of pertusis because u discouraged vaccination to fit the trend & attract the non vaccinators to Dr Zeigelbaums office.

    • YMSP

      Well said!

      The links here

      and here

      quoting research from John Hopkins, Geoge Washington U and others shows the screaming and hysterics on this board to be extremely misguided at best.

      An attempt to discern the Rebbe’s opinion when all agree that vaccines have increased exponentially in the past 15 -20 years is also second-rate if we don’t take that into account and wildly dismiss leading medical experts in favor of media sellpoints.

    • Milhouse

      YSMP, your so-called “studies” are all lies, every one of them. You have to face the fact that the entire basis for anyone even suspecting a link between the MMR jab and autism was Wakefield’s “study”, and he made it up.

      Despite all the people desperately looking for a link, and the millions poured into the search, nobody has ever found one, which means it doesn’t exist. If it existed it would have been found. So all the “activists” can do is continue to lie and make up “studies” that don’t exist.

      By the way, I looked on your two pages for the strings “hopkins” and “george wash” and they don’t appear.

    • YMSP

      Milhouse, I’ve met parents of children who had severe reactions to MMR, including Autism onset.

      Two of the studies listed here
      (the second of the 2 pages), list GW and Hopkins.

      I wish this weren’t the case, but over vaccinating and especially not spacing it out has been shown to be dangerous.

      Speak with autism professionals and ask for first hand accounts. It’s something that had to look into thoroughly. There was a time when I could have made a fair amount by taking the pro-vaccine side instead of the other. I looked it up and decided to take the other, despite the money being on that side.

  • number 8 responds to # 13, u endanger us all

    Have you ever heard of heard imunity, not all vaccines are given right away like the MMRV is not complete until age 4. Then their are the imunocompromised. the to young to or old etc. You enanger us all

  • to Mr feelings # 14

    Dr Paul Offit who is the Chief of pediatric infectious disease at one of the worlds most prestigious hospitals Childrens Hospital of pensylvania has plenty of info & debates on line. watch him make a fool out of the anti vacine propogandists. Here is one example that is 2 hrs long

  • Breini

    Well, now. Of course the manufacturer wants you to use their shots! Can’t imagine them saying otherwise.

    Coca cola would not say, “Don’t drink Coca Cola, it’s terrible for you.”

    • Dr. Obvious

      Pharmaceutical companies make very little off vaccines. The big money is in prescription drugs that, thanks to our restrictive policies on generic drugs, cost patients and insurance companies exorbitant sums.

  • response To number 11

    do you eat fruits & vegtables are they not healthy they grow in the earth which is full of heavy metals & feces to name a few does that mean fruits & vegetables are not good for you ?????????

    These ingridients used in the process of making vacciness. have no ill affects on you child based on all the exports the world over, at the verry least the risks of vaccinating clearly out way the risks of not vaccinating 1000 times over. unless you think you are smarter then all the experts at the American Academy of pediatrics, CDC, FDA, NIH ETC who take resposibilty for it. vaccinate thier own kids & urge u to vacinate your own kids.

  • vaccine

    the Rebbe always advised to ask the experts on this field.

    Phsyicians most of the time are just receiving AD’s from the pharmaceuticals who are pushing their business and dont have time to research.

    • Milhouse

      And what do you think the anti-vaccine activists do? They’re just receiving AD’s [sic] from the cuckoo “alternative medicine” pushers, who are just pushing their business, making fortuned off their books and their lectures and their “alternative remedies” that do nothing. Not to mention the plaintiffs’ bar that is eager to fund anything that might turn into lawsuits.

      How do you think the whole anti-vaccine movement started in the first place? Because that rosho, that disgusting piece of filth Andrew Wakefield yimach shemo, decided to create a parnossoh for himself. So he faked a “study”, got it published (peer review looks for honest mistakes, not deliberate lies), and then waited for the cash to come rolling in as parents sued the vaccine makers and hired him as an “expert witness”. Without him there would be no anti-vaccine movement, and no kids would be dying of the measles.

    • I dont undersand you

      physicians are tought how to reasearch in medical litirature properly and weed out the nonsense propoganda. they also understand that the CDC, NIH, FDA AAP are verry professional & responsiable. Unlike the anti vaccine propoganda conspiracy theorisits that are grossly iresponsiable about public health & safety

    • To Milhouse

      The anti-vaccination movement did not start because of Andrew Wakefield’s study, which was published in 1998. That is a very ignorant statement. I was born in 1987, and never received a single vaccine, nor did my 4 siblings. My mother was anti-vaccine and knew others who were also at that time. Since the time vaccines for small children and babies were introduced, there have been parents who disagreed with the practice. The reason not vaccinating is so much more common now is because people have easy access to facts on both sides of the issue. It is so much easier now for people to make an informed choice, as opposed to merely listening to everything their doctor says.

  • TO #6 #7 #8

    It is highly ignorant to speak in such a way about people who are making careful informed decisions about their children’s health.

    I ask you all;
    Why is it that you fear your child is at risk, if he is immunized?
    Why is it that as in the case of the mumps breakout and other epidemics, it was always the immunized children at school who were contracting the illness?
    Why is it that the only polio illness today is from the vaccine itself?

    For your information this is not a matter of opinion, rather about carefully studied and tested research, by conventional and concerned medical practitioners themselves.
    Unfortunately, those that promote mass immunization schemes do everything to suppress this vital and well documented information from the public, and do not want you to know about the thousands of tragic effects of vaccination.
    From all your misinformed responses, it is obvious that they have been successful.

    For your own benefit, I would advise you all to calm down and do some serious reading and research, even if takes much time and energy and is not the easy way out for mothers, like a quick fix of a vaccine.

    Then try offering your advice regarding; severe epileptic fits, neurological disorders, childhood leukemia and cancers, ADD, autism, developmental problems, etc etc. (all documented but withheld from the general public).
    As well if you’d like to comment and explain how those who are profiteering outrageously, can possibly form true objective decisions regarding our children’s and families’ health.

    For a true eye-opening medical prospective, watch Suzanne Humphries, Doctor of Nephrology, speaking about vaccines:

    • Shotbyshot,org

      visit shot by shot .org & see how many deaths your misinformed propoganda is contributing to. leave public health & safety to the public health & safety experts. not to the nonsense you read from the 1800 conspiracy theorisits that the CDC,FDA, NIH, american academy of pediatrics are trying to harm all our children & thier own.

    • Kiva

      So much ignorance there. No one claims that vaccines offer 100% immunity. But all the evidence shows that they dramatically reduce the chances of contracting diseases.

      Only crazy people think that there is some mass conspiracy to suppress information. Normal people realize that the world doesn’t operate that way.

      The fact that I can show you a scientist who believes that the world is flat, doesn’t mean that there is any genuine scientific controversy about it. There isn’t. Nor is there any genuine argument against the safety of vaccines.

  • response to number 16 Breini

    Get your facts straight the ones promoting the vaccines in the USA are the Center for disease control, the National institute of health, the FDA the American Academy of pediatrics, in each prominent country there are other major organizations & goverment designated independant bodies that each & every employee has to publicly each disclose that they dont have any conection to the vaccine manufacturing. They each have to indapendantly prove their safety.

    # 2 if vaccines made so much money why are we down from 24 manufactring companies 50 years ago to just 5 today ?

    # 3 if u trust the FDA etc when u need life saving medications, when u are sick why all of a sudden are u so sceptical when it comes to prevention of deadly diseases vaccines have been studied alot more then any other medications and have a much better safety record. I have not heard any anti vaccine people say they wont trust or use medications THEY NEED WHEN ILL, but all of a sudden when it comes to public health & safety all of a sudden its all about paraoid propoganda that the goverment wants to hurt them & make money why I ask u. & i will answer my own rheatorical question there are no athiests in a fox hole, as soon as they get sick they tack what they need to get better as long as they are ok they dont want to be botherd with prevention.

  • Response to # 14

    Yossi, lets see what Sophie Davis tought you, lets hear what your concerns are about vaccines right here in this forum & lets debate it

  • The pact should be enforced

    2-3 years ago Dr Rosen, Rabbi Simpson & rabbi Lustig all agreed they would not allow any more non vacinators into yeshiva or the doctors office. I heard they backed down & it fell apart do to financial pressure from a few wealthy yeshiva tution payers that harrased them & so now they threaten the safety of all our children with this bogus religious exemption. which religion I dont know i guess its the home birth anti vaccine die natural religion

  • The Rebbes stand on vaccines

    i heard the Rebbe spoke on several ocasions about the wonders of how vaccines can eradicate multiple deadly diseases from the entire population any one know the sources ?

  • proshots

    firstly isnt it said that hashem created a refuah before the illness and wouldnt the shots be the refuah secondly for those who dont vaccinate what would you do or say if chas vshalom your young baby gets whooping cough and does not recover how would you feel towards yourself and others who spread it to your child the whooping cough is very dangerous to young babies whom cant be vaccinated yet as well as other disease that can be deathly to people that are transplant/cancer patients whom also cant be vaccinated so yes i believe that those that dont vaccinate their children are selfish
    #11 do you read what they put in everything that you and your child eat and if you childs life was in jeopardy and you knew that this was a remedy that would save your child would you check all ingredients of that remedy

  • to #16

    yes,all manufactures want you to use their product.what a dumb any of you anti’s realize how many children were killed or crippled before the blessing of vaccines? OMG!

  • YMSP

    Proceed with caution, if at all. Dr. Russell Blaylock also points out the problem of multiple simultaneous vaccinations (each one giving the brain a separate jolt). He recommends at least spacing out the vaccines so that they are not done all at once (MMR can be done in 3 stages). That still leaves open whether to vaccinate at all, a decision that’s not simple.

    • Kiva

      The idea that a vaccine is a jolt to the brain or the system has no basis in science, just like most of the other ideas propagated by the anti-vaccine movement.

      Every breath or mouthful of food that a baby takes in, contains more pathogens than those in all of the vaccines that it gets.

      Whether to vaccinate at all is a very simple decision. It’s medical science on one side and scaremongering by ignorant people on the other.

    • Shotbyshot,org

      It has been well reaserched that all the vaccines in todays sets can be given together with out any ill affects. It is alot safer the the once small pox vaccine alone of yeaster year

    • YMSP

      Not sure where all these new posters who’ve never posted before are coming from, but welcome (I guess…).

      Unfortunately, I’ve met parents who had perfectly healthy kids before administering MMR. I’ve also heard the apologetics – “it was a nascent condition that maybe the vaccination brought out.” My obvious question – Isn’t that answer reason enough not to vaccinate??

      Comparing food to vaccines that are injected at once into the bloodstream shows your comments for what they are (nonsense and laughable propaganda). Why don’t you make oral vaccines with lifelong effects if there is any comparison?

      Re multiple simultaneous stimulation:
      1) I’ll go with Dr. Blaylock, who was the only one with the guts to go up against the FDA over 30 years ago against NutraSweet
      2) The problems with MMR, more than most other vaccines, proves the point (and disproves yours).

      To those who don’t know that “Medical Ethics” today is simply code word for pumping pharmaceuticals into youth and adults (and also code word for killing seniors), they need to start reading through the lines or speaking with more medical professionals.

      Keep comparing food to vaccines. You prove every one of the above points each time you do, shamefully and unfortunately so.

      Most importantly, can you show any empirical evidence that vaccines are safe and that multiple simultaneous stimulations are not a problem? Sadly, I already know your side’s answers – “That’s a loaded question.” “That’s like asking if you can you show any empirical evidence that the moon doesn’t cause tooth decay?” Those answers themselves should show readers what this is, shamefully and sadly so.

    • Milhouse

      Unfortunately, I’ve met parents who had perfectly healthy kids before administering MMR.

      Oh, really? How do you know they were healthy? If you’re talking about autistic kids, they were born that way. Of course they don’t get diagnosed until they’re about 2-3 years old. How else could it be?

      I’ve also heard the apologetics – “it was a nascent condition that maybe the vaccination brought out.” My obvious question – Isn’t that answer reason enough not to vaccinate??

      Nobody says that. There is no reason a vaccination should “bring out” autism, or affect its progress in any way. These kids were born autistic, and the only effect the vaccine had was that now they probably won’t have to deal with these terrible diseases on top of the autism.

      I’ll go with Dr. Blaylock, who was the only one with the guts to go up against the FDA over 30 years ago against NutraSweet

      In other words, he’s a nut of long standing, he proved he was a nut 30 years ago. There is nothing at all wrong with aspartame. But it stands to reason that the same nut cases who rave about it would also go nuts about other things. Do you perhaps also worry about chemtrails, or about getting cancer from power lines, or alar on apples?

      Have a read of this book, you might learn something:

    • YMSP

      The kid was healthy until he had the MMR (source – his mother, who’s not alone and there are many other parents who’ve unfortunately had similar experiences, R”L).

      Blaylock has a wellness letter that’s read by 100,000s. It doesn’t really deal with vaccines.

      Milhouse, I’ve seen other collaborations to back up the reality of some of the so-called “scares” in the book, like amalgam fillings.

      In general, the many, many doctors, professors, etc. who do stand up against vaccines are subject to the same ridicule, threats of loss of tenure, etc., etc. that meets anyone who doesn’t walk in lockstep with leftist academia. Being against vaccines en masse, against the ever growing schedule of vacs without any research or second thought, is like being a creationist in their eyes, or challenging the mumbo jumbo that they call carbon dating. Those who stand up against them usually have a lot to lose in so doing and do so because they feel it’s important.

      Obviously, that means nothing as far as which side of the issue is right, but some of the studies are compelling and don’t have the glaring questions that meet the conventional/media hyped ones.

      As far as aspartame goes, even its staunchest defenders use words like “call into question” correlations between it and leukemia R”L. Anything that gives the “it’s all fine if the FDA says so” crowd pause is best to stay away from.

  • Breini

    This is hardly the place to try to educate others on one’s stance.
    The important thing is to do your own THOROUGH research and be confident in your decision.

    • Shotbyshot,org

      so if a doctor tells you u need medication for a heart attack go online and ask the nuts & research if he is right & when you die let me know if it was smart to read all the idiotic propoganda you found online. STOP FOOLING YOURSELF BREINI, TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND. THIS PROPOGANDA IS COSTING LIVES

    • Milhouse

      Hey, don’t put down research. By all means people should do their own research, and not just trust authority. The fact is that the CDC, FDA, etc. can and do lie. The CDC lies about guns. The FDA lied about breast implants. So it’s not impossible that they should lie about other things too; but in this case common sense says they’re telling the truth.

      And that’s the point. When you do your own research you have to apply common sense, and not automatically trust every kook on the internet. As Carl Sagan said, “They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” The anti-vaxxers are not Galileo or Newton, let alone Semmelweis; they are Bozo.

    • Milhouse

      Kooks also go far beyond the internet. Just because someone wrote a book doesn’t mean they’re not crazy.

    • Breini

      and just because kooks go far beyond the internet doesn’t mean that those who do their research and conclude contrary to you are kooks.

      Even if you think so.

    • Milhouse

      The only people who claim that the MMR vaccine causes autism are kooks or deliberate liars.

  • crown heights is an epidimiological nightmare

    I heard that some one in the state dept of health mentioned that the CH has the least vaccinated zip code in the state. Now considerd the most dangerous place to live in new york infectious disease wise we our now a nightmare waiting to happen. Its time we head the warning from the experts in the field vaccinate your kids. Stop out smarting yourself before you become a victim of your own selfish behavior

    • Milhouse

      If 11213 is the least-vaccinated zip code (and I doubt it) it’s not because of unzereh. Overall, vaccination rates among frum Jews are comparable to those among the general population. Yes, we have some nuts, but the overwhelming majority of us do vaccinate. If there’s a problem in 11213, look elsewhere for it.

  • time to hold all out tution until this public safety hazerd is corrected

    The schools need to stop mingling these religious zelout conspiracy theorisits children that are a public health disaster. With hold your next tutuion check until they ensure the safety of all our children as recomended by all the epdimeiological infectious disease experts the world over. SAY NO MORE RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • YMSP

      Not sure who you guys are but if you claim that all experts are on your side then, well, that claim is flat-out wrong (see below or do 2 minutes worth of research).

      After meeting a parent whose child was hospitalized and developed autism right after MMR, I can’t subscribe to your blind-faith-in-liberal-doctors pov. After talking with numerous parents about the affects on their vaccinated vs a non-vaccinated kids and after seeing a slight but noticeable delay in the speech of the one child who was vaccinated (which B”H was corrected a month later), it seems that your opinions are careless.

      In any case, they’re certainly not medical or scientific consensus, unless you receive your medical education from the media (in which case you should still make room for logic and clear studies showing the opposite).

    • Milhouse

      Wrong. All experts are indeed on our side. Your side has no experts, only frauds and kooks. That there is no link at all between the MMR jab and autism is not just the consensus view, it’s unanimous.

  • hey

    here is a link to PBS Frontline Documentary about vaccines , they address all the crack-pot theories.

    • YMSP

      The journal on toxicology or the other numerous sources that show a vaccine-autism correlation, or that at least don’t dismiss the theory, are clear. If someone wants to ignore all of the other studies, first hand accounts, etc. they can (although anyone would wonder why anyone would refuse to look into both sides – either side – seriously, as this issue demands), but that’s ignoring serious research and dismissing real concerns as “crack-pot” theories.


    THE Neshei new letter & Rishie deitsch have become the self proclaimed medical experts for lubavitchers on home birthing which is another Crown heights public health disaster ask any CH hatzolah paramedic as well as on the non vaccine hippy trend.

    • Mom

      Give it a shot (pun intended!) Home birth is the best thing that ever happened to me :) Three times!

    • Mom

      And thank you Rishe Deitsch for being the small voice in the dark who is making a difference.

  • The Doctors of Crown Heights are responsible for this public health disaster

    They are to worried about losing a patient to the competitor so they dont do the right thing and push hard enough to get all the kids in the office up to date.

  • Polio is now back

    Thanks to your selfish ill informed neighbor that is competing against the worlds epidimiological infectious disease experts polio is now spreading around israel again.

    • Milhouse

      I don’t think that has anything to do with the anti-vaxxers. Israelis are already vaccinated against polio to the same standard as other western countries. Unfortunately, while culturally Israel is a western country, geographically it isn’t, and geography is what matters here. Polio is coming in with the African illegal immigrants, so Israelis need extra vaccinations that they never needed before.

  • Rebbe's published opinion

    There are dozens of printed letters from the Rebbe where he strongly criticizes those who try to second guess Doctors and proven medical practices as developed by modern science.

    The crux of the Rebbe’s point is that since by divine providence the Doctor is the one who is by profession employed to heal, he is the ultimate authority according to Torah to determine what medical practice should be followed and applied.

    The Rebbe further states that it is forbidden for a lay person to try to research the reasoning for the Doctor’s orders, to the degree that one who does research and second guess his Doctor will cause more harm than good.

    Simply put, if a licensed practicing Doctor opines that you take certain medicine or have surgery or take a shot to prevent disease, you are obligated according to Torah to follow his orders without hesitation.

    The Rebbe even attacks very strongly those who claim that conventional medical practice is flawed, as unfounded and against Halacha.

    It’s not possible in an online comment to go into all the details, but I will list a number of letters where one can see the Rebbe’s strong words against second guessing Doctors and common medical practices, you will find them in the following letters (I will list them by number of the letters as printed in Igros Kodesh):

    605, 606, 628, 660, 734, 1362, 1619, 1633, 1637, 2140, 2282, 2903 and many many more.

    • Milhouse

      This is only a general rule. The Rebbe had his own differences with conventional medical wisdom. Sometimes the doctors are all wrong; it’s happened many times before, and undoubtedly it will happen many times again. But these are exceptions, not the usual case. Usually, if medical opinion is unanimous one way, and vociferous cranks insist otherwise, the smart money is on the doctors.

    • YMSP

      What about in a case where medical practitioners differ greatly on the issue? There are two sides and the anti-vaccination side usually makes a better case. Wouldn’t a rofeh yedid be the best way to go, and one who would answer legitimate medical questions instead of one who regurgitates big pharma talking points?

    • YMSP

      Important Correction to your point:

      The Rebbe took no position on vaccines and did not say to follow one doctor blindly over the hundreds that some posters choose to discount.

      At one point the Rebbe said that just like one takes medicine without knowing exactly how it works, so too one must follow Torah and mitzvos even if they don’t yet know how it’s so vitally necessary, which they will find out later.

      The Rebbe doesn’t say that a doctor who can’t answer basic security questions, like the 30 studies linked to, should be followed with blind faith.

      If a rov is asked meheichan dantuni and he answers some boich s’vora, he stops being a rov and becomes a walking chilul Hashem, H”Y. If a doctor can’t answer legitimate medical questions, no where does the Rebbe to say to follow this doctor’s preferred course (which he can’t give any sound reasons for). To say so is to invent a new pirush in the Rebbe’s words.

    • YMSP

      Of course, if your point is that if one is confused and doesn’t want to ask a doctor who can answer all of the questions raised against vaccination, but chooses to go with a rofeh yedid who won’t answer the questions, then Hashem will help anyway through this doctor, maybe that’s the case. But that doesn’t prevent someone who has these questions from seeking out a doctor who answers them according to his satisfaction.

      If there are letters in which the Rebbe discourages this, please tell – but the first ones on the list certainly don’t say that and from my memory of many letters on doctors it seems that your trying to infer the Rebbe’s opinion on vaccines is out of place.

    • Rebbe's published opinion

      Milhouse & YMSP, I gave you very specific references where to READ the Rebbe’s clearly stated written opinion, you are making statements without backing and without context.

      Sure, when there are difference of opinion you must go to a third opinion, this is also stated in those letters. This happens if your doctor isn’t sure or if he sends you to a specialist who may say something different. Rofe Yedid is intended for general guidance as to which way to go IF there are different opinions amongst Doctors (to the exclusion of hallucinators, charlatans, cult leaders & witch doctors).

      As to the Rebbe endorsing vaccinations, it is clear from the Rebbe in the letters that whatever conventional medicine developed based on continuous scientific research, is the path which is required by Torah to be followed and accepted.

      The Rebbe strongly dismissed the negative opinions about hospitals and conventional medicine as unfounded and nonsense. The Rebbe also clearly states that if a non-conventional method has been proven to work for you, you may continue on this path, under the supervision and with the cooperation of your conventional doctor.

      And yes, the Rebbe clearly says that you are forbidden to question and try to do your own research into the background of the medical advice given by your doctor. FORBIDDEN writes the Rebbe. I can’t help you if you have millions of questions, the Rebbe holds that its non of your business, and that you will only cause harm instead of doing any good for yourself or your relative the patient.

      I can’t help you if you would like the Rebbe to hold any differently, I gave you a partial list of letters which to read on this subject.

      I will just add, that a doctor according to the Rebbe, is someone who practices medicine for a living. This too is in the letters.

    • Milhouse

      YSMP, there are not two sides on this issue. There is only one side, on which all medical opinion is aligned; the other side is entirely populated by ignorance and cranks.

      “Rebbe’s published opinion”:
      it is clear from the Rebbe in the letters that whatever conventional medicine developed based on continuous scientific research, is the path which is required by Torah to be followed and accepted

      This cannot be the Rebbe’s opinion, because he had his own differences with conventional medical wisdom. Not on this, but for instance see the Rebbe’s stance against having vasectomies during prostate surgery, despite the consensus of medical opinion being in favor. And of course if we were always to take this approach, we would have to worry about metzitzah, we could stop delaying brissen for jaundice, and pregnant women could have as many ultrasounds as they felt like.

    • YMSP

      “Rebbe’s published opinion” – I’d be very careful with yelling “forbidden” on things that the Rebbe never forbids, as Milhouse also points out even though he sides with you on the issue.

      The letters you quote say nothing about vaccines and the Rebbe’s saying that people need to listen to doctors even if they don’t know how it works also talking about when there’s medical consensus. None such consensus exists here. You’ve skewed the Rebbe’s words in many different ways as seems to be obvious to even those who agree with your side.

      The Rebbe’s Letter 3525 (kerach yud aleph) gives even me pause on this. But it was a maaneh protis 50 years ago before doctors started injecting 6-7 vaccines at once into a baby. I’ve spent years opposing but that letter may change my mind (although there’s no harm in spacing them out). In this case the Rebbe recognizes that there are differing opinions and gives a general rule.

      The only question left is that there are halachos in medicine. For example, you don’t stay alone with a rofeh akum because he might kill. Science was interested in increasing lifespan. Different opinions were not persecuted in the yuds (when the letter was written).

      Today doctors yell for euthanasia. A senior going to Columbia is ignored, the doctors trick frum family members into not doing necessary things and berate family members for not having “rachmonis” on an elderly man (who was fine days before) and keeping him going at that age. They openly talk about the “need to preserve resources for younger patients.” I’ve heard frieh doctors openly espouse such views as well. Others are well meaning but lazy and regurgitate whatever it says in “science” and “med” journals written by the above people.

      Some things are clear:
      1) The need for a rofeh yedid is clear.
      2) That rofeh yedid should be apprised of the condition of an elderly or infirm patient every day and listened to. I know of one rofeh yedid from New England who wanted the staff of Columbia charged with murder for ignoring an elderly admitted’s creatinine level and not doing proper dialysis solely because of age. He was right.

      To trust a secular educated or modern-orthodox (who himm and haww before siding with the secular) doctor on life threatening situations is riskier today than ever. On the vaccines issue, obviously following roiv if you believe that the Rebbe would give such advise despite the change in situation (shinui b’metzius) – (many more vaccines and exponential increase in autism R”L), then do that. If you believe the shinui b’metzius might cause a change in the Rebbe’s answer (in 3525, not the unrelated ones quoted above), then research and ask. If these are quacks then real doctors should be able to dismiss their concerns logically and clearly (which I have yet to see).

      Either of the above ways seems oisgehaltn. Advocating throwing kids out of yeshivos because the parent isn’t following “roiv” clearly isn’t something that the Rebbe would ever look pleasingly at, as (aside from being obvious, also) seems clear from the way the Rebbe approached the question.

    • Rebbe's published opinion

      Milhouse, you sound like a bright guy, so why don’t you lookup the letters of the Rebbe and see for yourself, you don’t have to believe me.

      Also, why do you resort to throwing out supossed oppinions of the Rebbe about matters without any sources?

      Perhaps the Rebbe’s diferences with certain medical practices were based in actual disagreements amongst legitimate medical scientists, and the Rebbe took one side against another.

      Please give sources before you comment with an opinion.

    • Rebbe's published opinion

      YMSP, you like to assume things about the Rebbe without any basis, but since he’s not here to say it to your face now, you put words in his mouth as if he most probably changed his mind.

      My main point was that the Rebbe clearly forbids us from doing our own research to question our doctors, and if you do, you will cause more harm instead of doing any good. How do you presume that the Rebbe changed his mind on this?

      The Rebbe’s position is based partialy on the fact that Halachicaly we are obligated to be Mechalel Shabbos or we are forbiden to fast on Yom Kippur, based on the opinion of a professional doctor. (Hilchos Yom Kippur 618 Teshuvos Haradva”z vol. 3, 444, Tur, Beis Yosef, Aruch Hashulchan Hilchos Shabbos 336) where it is explained who qualifies as a doctor according to Torah.

      However I must acknowledge that you found on your own a letter (I did suggest that there are many more letters than the ones I listed, I focussed on one point only) that made you consider changing your mind. You sound like you have honesty in you.

  • dept of Health

    How is it that the NYC Dept. of Health doesn’t buckle
    down on our Yeshivas to make sure all their students
    are immunized? How do the Yeshivas get away with
    this? When my daughter was in BR Headstart my
    daughter had to be up to date on her immunizations.
    How come in my son’s Yeshiva no one bothers me.
    I immunize when its convenient for me.

  • how embarassing & a chillel hashem

    That Dr Katz one of the scientists that invented the MMR has to point to the frum community as a major source of this ignorant dangerous anti vaccine propaganda is a major chilul hashem. we need to do some real soul searching & buckle down on these mishugoyim amongst us!

    • Milhouse

      The frum community is not a major source, or even a significant minor source, of this mishugaas.

  • Mom

    One more thing –
    NEVER give your child GARDASIL. Don’t touch it with a ten foot pole. Just say NO to GARDASIL!!

    • Amused Observer

      Just say YES to CERVICAL CANCER!!

      Yes, of course my daughter was vaccinated with Gardasil. Not doing so would be a very poor decision.

  • primary prevention is a sign of yemos hamoshiach

    The more primary prevention of deadly diseases the better. May g-d bless the scientists and doctors they should not get distracted by any of the anti vaccine lunatics and finding these ultimate cures prevention of all the world’s disease cancers etc ushering in the era of moshiach

    • Milhouse

      YMSP, did you actually look at the study linked from George Washington? Did you notice what it says? Even if we were to take it seriously, it does not recommend not vaccinating. On the contrary it explicitly says Routine childhood vaccination should be continued to help reduce the morbidity and mortality associated with infectious diseases. But it recommends that thimerosal should no longer be used. Well, guess what, it isn’t. Thimerosal has not been used in any pediatric vaccines (except for influenza) in the USA since 2001.

      In any case, this “study” is a giant fraud. See here for why.

  • what a chilul hashem and embarsment

    That doctor Katz one of the original inventors of the MMR has to write and besech the frum community for its idiocy in being a major playor in this conspiracy theorist anti vaccine propoganda and hence out breaks of its deadly consoquences is embarrassing and an out right major chilul hashem of the first degree

    We need to do some major inear soul searching and not allow these dangerous lunatics to endanger our schools, shuls, children, thier children and the imunocompromised such as the children with disease such as cancer that cannot vaccinate.
    we need to buckle down on our schools vaccine policy now!

    • Milhouse

      The frum community is not a major player in this mishugaas. It’s not even a minor player. There are a few frum people who have been swept up in it, as we see in this discussion, but they are only a few, and they are not a bigger proportion of our community than of the general community. If you read the article here, you will see that the concern in Borough Park is with three families.

  • Gr

    You pro vaxers should watch the film this will shed some light on the issue.

    • Milhouse

      Why should we watch a film that is not only fictional but also boring? There are many fictional films that are much more exciting.

  • DG

    1. The U.S. government maintains a database of adverse vaccine effects, because there are adverse vaccine effects.

    2. Parents who vaccinate AND parents who don’t vaccinate are choosing a risk/benefit package that is not without potential consequences. The reason there is debate about this subject is that it is not a black-and-white issue.

    3. Parents should have the choice about which risks to expose their children to. Vaccines do have risks. For some children, dire ones. Not vaccinating also has risks, including dire ones. We cannot predict the future to know which risks (which are based on probabilities as well as on known factors such as medical history) will affect a particular child and a particular time.

    4. Each vaccine has different issues, different pros and cons. No one can make a (true) blanket statement that ALL vaccines are bad or ALL vaccines are good. There are too many variables, and there is much we do not know.

    • Milhouse

      Of course there are adverse effects. Nobody has ever denied that. But the issue is entirely black and white. The risk of an adverse event from vaccinating is far lower than the risk of not vaccinating. In fact, it’s lower than the risk of being hurt in a car crash on the way to or from the vaccination! If you want to object to vaccination as risky, that’s where you should focus: vaccination is risky because you have to go out of your house to do it, and on the way anything could happen. And that is perfectly true, but keeping your child at home and unvaccinated is more risky.

      The only children for whom vaccinating is more dangerous than not vaccinating are those with allergies to the ingredients of the vaccine, and those with compromised immune systems. And your child’s doctor should be well aware of both these factors.

    • Mom

      Milhouse, you’re an online bully, plain and simple, regardless of your opinion.
      There’s a way to speak that makes one a pleasant person to interact with, but you certainly don’t know of it. The end.

    • Milhouse

      People who encourage others not to vaccinate their children, people who spread the lie that the MMR vaccine causes autism, deserve to be bullied.

    • DG

      Millhouse, you don’t understand probability. To calculate the risk of not vaccinating, you don’t calculate the chance of having a bad reaction or side effect to an illness. You calculate the probability of contracting the illness and multiply it by the probability of having a bad reaction (which makes the fraction smaller). For most people that probability is actually extremely low. Some people have greater risk factors both for contracting an illness and for having a bad reaction to it. Those people are more likely to benefit from vaccination when they do their own risk/benefit analysis.

      And again, each vaccine has its own set of risks and benefits and should be considered separately.

    • Amused Observer

      When you don’t vaccinate, you’re not only “choosing a risk/benefit package” for your own child, you’re choosing it for the entire population.

      As for probabilities, you’re not going far enough, either. Compare P(catching the disease|the entire population is vaccinated) vs. P(catching the disease|limited or no vaccination), then toss that into the equations.

  • concerned Citizen

    I think that children and adults who are not vaccinated should be banned from schools. Why are some people so succeptible to the antivaccination bubbeh maasehs.
    Why should our children suffer and be put at risk by other people’s decisions to make there kids chas v’shalom be a petri dish for disease.

  • the Rebbe on vaccines

    Look at Igros Kodesh, volume 11, letter 3525 (page 137). The Rebbe said about vaccines not to separate from the community and to do what the majority of children in the child’s class do. (as quoted in The Rebbe’s Advice by Rabbi Dalfin).

    • YMSP

      It’s from 5715. The roiv might have changed and the matzav is different (many vaccines – to a ridiculous amount that’s raised many objections in the medical community) – but you make a compelling argument and maybe the vaccines should be taken, but spread out over time (which even the biggest proponents wouldn’t have that much of an issue with).

  • CHT

    Opinion of Vaccine Developer should be completely ignored as he has interest.

    There are plenty of other specialists, with range of opinions, to listen

    • Milhouse

      Really? What is his interest? What does he gain if you vaccinate your children?

      There are indeed plenty of other specialists, but they do not have a range of opinions. On this issue they are all unanimous. The only voices against vaccination are kooks and charlatans.

  • Facts or feelings?

    Wow! I was hoping to see some facts or science, or at least 1 email asking for the option to have the facts presented. While wasting my time here reading, I will mention the brightest, heated, and emotional comments:
    – there is nothing to debate
    – there are no side effects
    -quote Dr. Ofit
    – I should impose my opinion on my patients asking to vaccinate (as you would do)
    – debate this on this bright forum

    I offered my time to present the facts but all of you here are obviously smarter, see more patients in this field than me, and know what I plan to say so there is really no need for open discussion/ debate.
    It may be fear that there is another story and you do this yourself, so wanting to remain ignorant of what others claim.

    All the best wishes for health to all and maybe stopping the imposing of opinions and hate will hasten the coming of Moshiach.

    • Milhouse

      There are no facts for you to present. The truth is clear, and the only arguments the anti-vaxxers have are outright frauds.

    • are you another Dr wakfield wanna bee

      the facts are clear you can either believe One side which is The Hollywood propoganda the likes of Jenny McCarthy looking to make sensation & more fame and blame her ill child with out a shread of real scientific evidence & Attorneys looking to sue vaccine manufacturing plants like Pfizer for profits along with & in cohots with the fraudster Dr Wakfield who is your hero presenting his pseudoscience we dont need to hear you & if you realy want present it hear. I for one trust the scientists AAP, FDA, CDC, who have worked monitored IDEPENDANTLY all of the manufacruring of vaccines & conntinue to monitor them as long as they are liscenced. no one argues the rare risk, what all responsible medical practitioners say in unison is the risk of not vaccinating is far far greater then vaccinating that pscientificaly proven end of story

    • YMSP

      As I mentioned before reading your latest post, your position makes yours the only one of medical value.

      The poster who posted the Rebbe’s letter gives us the definitive answer lpoel (roiv of class), but your medical opinion is the only one of medical value on this thread.

    • Amused Observer

      “There is nothing to debate” – the majority isn’t always right, but the fact of the matter is that, yes, the overwhelming bulk of the research supports vaccination. Are you disputing that?

      “There are no side effects” – yes, of course there are, but most quite minor. The more important question is comparing the side effects of vaccination to the “side effects” of having an unvaccinated population. That will be a somewhat more informative, if quite lopsided, conversation.

      Your other points are not particularly relevant, including being an MD (which I presume you are). Argument from authority lends some initial weight, perhaps, but ultimately doesn’t alter the facts.

  • response to number 56

    Your ignorance of vaccine “shines right through” when you start by stating that “vaccines are injected directly in to the blood stream”. The facts are Vaccines are Not injected directly into the blood stream and they never were ( that would be an IV administration) they are injected in to the intramuscular tissue were they absorb slowly & yes some are taken oraly like Rotateq hence my comparison to fruits & vegtables.

  • response to number 56 again

    I think 14 large real double blind studies using thousands of children done in a variety of countries has settled the case that MMR has no connection to anything on the autism spectrum at all . If you chose to still believe FORMER DR Wakfield (who has since had his english medical license revoked for good reason) because he had the selfish chutzpah to use a few children who were already known to have symptoms of autism & did his reasearch in cordination with lawyers to fill his own pockets then shame on you all that money to prove him wrong could have been spent on looking for the real cause of autism. Then your folks went on to blame the mercury that kept the multidose vials sterile we waisted all that money to reasearch that the mercury was not a problem (although it is a problem in tuna, to talk about food again ) WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BLAME THE VACCINES ON FOR NEXT. you remind of a friend I have with CP I encouraged him to get the flu shot last year & he said no he is afraid of getting a seizure from it so he left the Dr’s office we were at together with out it. Only to have the worst seizure he ever had 5 hrs later. Had he had the flu shot you and mcarthy would have said “see thats proof the flu shot causes seizures.” Thats why medicine has real profesionals scientists MD- PHD’s on board thousands of them at the NIH, CDC, FDA watching verry closely & “independant of the manufacturing firms” year after year to keep our vaccines as safe as possiable and to rid us of as many of the deadly diseases that u have obviously never seen such as HIB- epiglottitis which kils in minutes, HIB or Measles mumps meningitis pancreatits or orchitis, life long paralysis from polio or even worse death, have you ever seen the misearable death people have with pneumococal pneumonia, to name a few. and you spew not vaccinating properly and in a timely manner as recomended by exports in all major countries of the world. because a holywood actor mcarthy and a few other amuter pseudo profesionals want to make a name for themselves or worse money like wakfield so they present factitious data to lead you to believe verry verry rare side affects should have us all not protect properly through the herd imunity required to protect our babies, eldery & imunocompromised our comunnity deserves better. perhaps that why halacha says if one is to practice medicine they need to be licesnced and practice kedina demalchusa “like the law of the land” the law of the land is verry clear on this vaccinate for the safety of our people. You cannot sit on a boat & make a whole under you seat & scream its my seat to bad.

  • response to YMSP

    Your ignorance of vaccine “shines right through” when you start by stating that “vaccines are injected directly in to the blood stream”. The facts are Vaccines are Not injected directly into the blood stream and they never were ( that would be an IV administration) they are injected in to the intramuscular tissue were they absorb slowly & yes some are taken oraly like Rotateq hence my comparison to fruits & vegtables

    I think 14 large real double blind studies using thousands of children done in a variety of countries has settled the case that MMR has no connection to anything on the autism spectrum at all . If you chose to still believe FORMER DR Wakfield (who has since had his english medical license revoked for good reason) because he had the selfish chutzpah to use a few children who were already known to have symptoms of autism & did his reasearch in cordination with lawyers to fill his own pockets then shame on you all that money to prove him wrong could have been spent on looking for the real cause of autism. Then your folks went on to blame the mercury that kept the multidose vials sterile we waisted all that money to reasearch that the mercury was not a problem (although it is a problem in tuna, to talk about food again ) WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BLAME THE VACCINES ON FOR NEXT. you remind of a friend I have with CP I encouraged him to get the flu shot last year & he said no he is afraid of getting a seizure from it so he left the Dr’s office we were at together with out it. Only to have the worst seizure he ever had 5 hrs later. Had he had the flu shot you and mcarthy would have said “see thats proof the flu shot causes seizures.” Thats why medicine has real profesionals scientists MD- PHD’s on board thousands of them at the NIH, CDC, FDA watching verry closely & “independant of the manufacturing firms” year after year to keep our vaccines as safe as possiable and to rid us of as many of the deadly diseases that u have obviously never seen such as HIB- epiglottitis which kils in minutes, HIB or Measles mumps meningitis pancreatits or orchitis, life long paralysis from polio or even worse death, have you ever seen the misearable death people have with pneumococal pneumonia, to name a few. and you spew not vaccinating properly and in a timely manner as recomended by exports in all major countries of the world. because a holywood actor mcarthy and a few other amuter pseudo profesionals want to make a name for themselves or worse money like wakfield so they present factitious data to lead you to believe verry verry rare side affects should have us all not protect properly through the herd imunity required to protect our babies, eldery & imunocompromised our comunnity deserves better. perhaps that why halacha says if one is to practice medicine they need to be licesnced and practice kedina demalchusa “like the law of the land” the law of the land is verry clear on this vaccinate for the safety of our people. You cannot sit on a boat & make a whole under you seat & scream its my seat to bad.

    • YMSP

      You’re putting up straw men. To compare food to vaccines is ridiculous. The fact that they go through intramuscular tissue before slowly absorbing into the blood and the general system is irrelevant and in fact only helps show the difference between that and food.

      22 studies from reputable sources and thousands of doctors have come to the conclusion that there is a correlation. Let’s all call them Dr. Wakefield if that helps your case.

      That said, after the Rebbe’s letter – which in most cases today would lead one to the conclusion to vaccinate and when most of the class doesn’t, not to, the discussion is really pointless in terms of maaseh bpoel (see my post below) unless one believes that the situation has changed so seriously, which seems not to be the case.

      The sinking boat theory has no place here. Clearly, the Rebbe recognized both sides and did not make that argument. Also, as many have pointed out, if you feel that strongly then your kids are vaccinated (oh yes, the herd excuse, er, problem – assuming you don’t let them into shopping centers or kids play places).

      Again, you show no proof that vaccines are safe and disingenuously (childishly) boil down all opposition to Dr. Wakefield (who I haven’t head of in years). Your side doesn’t win on the merits. Both sides have cases. But we know that in the end all hashpaois come through the Nosi and so his words to fall the roiv of the class should be decisive (unless you see where he’d probably voice another opinion today based on the enormity of the modern vaccine schedule – which is possible but at least I don’t think it’s probable).

      Therefore, we now agree on most cases, but not because all great doctors and studies against are Wakefield.

    • YMSP

      PS Obviously I’m typing quickly. If anything of mine is unclear (naniach that you disagree) let me know.

    • YMSP

      Btw, just FYI

      Contrary to the end of your post, there’s no dina dmalchusa to vaccinate. The dina dmalchusa is actually that there are exemptions.

      More seriously, there’s certainly no halacha that a doctor needs to practice according to the dictates of the government as opposed to his own research, which seems to be what you’re partly implying (dina dmalchusa has to do with fair taxation, items of communal benefit like traffic lights and little else).

  • YMSP

    The maskono only the issue seems to come from the poster who posted the Rebbe’s actual letter (kerach 11, pg 137 – Iggeres 3525) on the issue. It does say “hinei bkegone do neemar al tifrosh min hatzibbur.” Based on that I’m going to try to have my kids vaccinated (there are two deciders). This is because all hashpois come through the Nosi and if people go with emunah the result will for sure be good. It follows that if roiv parents don’t vaccinate in the class, then one should not, for the same reason. Everything else, including years of reading up on the issue are all ‘vos a tzig zogt’ un zeinen vert nisht mer fun dem. Ain lonu ela divrei Ben Amram.

    That said, there has been a serious shinui b’metzius since then, the roiv is less clear and if someone sees the issue different than the horaah proti, that’s for them. For sure, someone who wants to follow the Rebbe on this will be ok.

    But some of the comments need to make us pause and see where we’re getting our hafkofos from.

    Obviously, anyone letting this issue distrube their sholom bayis, H”Y, is doing far worse to their kids’ health and upbringing Ch”v. All brochos come from Hashem and this would not be the way to receive them.

    Those calling for kids to ch”v be kicked out of schools because the parents follow the advice of doctors on them can be wished – Hashem HaTov Yechaper b’ad anieyi hatzon. Not sure exactly what kind of generation we’re living in, but it’s time for Hashem to have rachmonis. To suggest that doing something that cruel would help in health is insanity. Hashem HaTov Yechaper.

    The over reliance on the CDC, vechulu, vechulu who are run by the same people promoting euthanasia, death panels, socialized medicine is scary. These are all people who persecute creationist scientists, laugh and deride anything that doesn’t fit their agenda and refuse to consider any new treatments or innovations.

    One reason that at hisgalus haMoshiach, even in the time that olom keminhogo noheig, diseases will be cured, is because then medical professionals will do their job without looking for side interests, suppressing cures to save supposedly jobs R”L and the plethora of other things that is standard in modern-day science, which is administered by some of the most callous people on earth. The dissenting doctors (who not only exist, but the only pediatrician on this thread seems to side with them
    – “Facts or Feelings? – now post 27), have gone through a lot for their dissent and in general are probably more trustworthy on the whole than the likes of the CDC, WHO, etc.

    None of that negates the Rebbe’s words “bkegone do neemar al tifrosh min hatzibbur” and the issue needs now to be looked at in that light, on an individual level and with the above points and perspectives in mind.


      You can see the truth in your words! as opposed to all the others who attack and speak rudely, because they are in denial.