39 Comments

• Yitzchok Fogelberg

  I think the machloches is clearing up Rabbi Osdoba is the Senior Rov of the kehilla. If there had to be a choice of any one single Rov to follow, it is Rabbi Osdoba. He makes the positions to follow very clear.

• sruly

  we all saw this in 770 why do we need mor machlokos on the web

  do we need to make public all ofour machlokos??????

  this is why we suffer so much in the community no achdus

  and posting this will not make it any better

• Berl

  Enough! I think that we have enough garbage post on the websites

• Uzbek

  I am SHOCKED that these rabbis are SHOCKED. What should shock you is the the chinuch, or the lack of it, the tznius, or the lack of it, the shalom bayous, or the lack of it, the parnosoho, or the lack of it. THE SICK IN OUR SHCHUNA, THE YOUNG YESOMOS AND YESOMIM.
  YOU ARE ALL CRIMINALS

• chag hamatzos

  one of the reasons why shevuos was called "chag hamatzos" is because rabbonim were usually very busy with halacha in their communities and werent able to travel to the rebbe except for shvuos when there werent really any sha’alos, but here in crown heights it looks like rabbonim have plenty of time erev pesach for a lot of trivial things
  arent they busy with anything else besides for this crap
  chag samaiach and for sure a kosher one

• emes will prevail

  why do these pashkvilim have to be lying around 770 for all the kids to see!! and yes they are pashkvilim one set of "rabonim" is obliterating another this is not chinuch

• confused

  Who elected HaRav Raitport and HaRav Segal to be members of the Beth Din? The Rebbe said members of the Beth Din should be elected, didn’t he?

• Chaim

  If YOU were summand to a Din Torah and refused to appear with the argument (even backed by some rob/rabbonim) that it’s a frivolous case and the other side has no REAL claim over you – you would probably end up very quickly in a SIRIV. If you are summoned to a Din Torah you MUST appear. – and if your so sure and clear that you are right – well, then it will be very easy to convince to beis din (sitting on the din tora) of your innocence and it will be a open-and-shut case.

  Why is it that some people on the to are above the law, and could get away from appearing from a Din Torah? What are you afraid of – Hashem?

  The only people that are exempt Al Pi Din from appearing are Malchei Yisroel (not beis donvid) – and the reason given is not a positive one….

  Why cant we clear up all this garbage once and for all IN A DIN TORAH B’ZABLA, and not perpetuate C”V this?

• Member Kan Tzivah

  The truth is that the letter issued by the Badatz is a real sham. The Badatz has been issuing letters of protection to all those that promise to be politically aligned with the CHK. Moshe Rbashkin against the other Chavrei Vaad Hakohol, Shlomo Segal against the other Chaver Habadatz, Moshe Rubashkin against the Netzigim etc. And in order to give their sham letters semblance of truth they included a signature from Rabbi Raitport of Boro Park. In the long run all their protectionism will backfire. They have created a situation whereas nobody is required to come to a din torah anymore. Three independent LUBAVITCHER Rabbonim ordered that shlomo segal moshe rubashlin and Company should come to a din torah in order to settle some disputes in the neighborhood and where agahst at the response they received. At the same time when individuals try to be mazmin anybody with connections to the CHK to a din Torah the protectionism machine starts to operate in full swing. They find some kakemeime reason in order to direct their constituents to be mesarev l’din. les din v’les dayin. Kol d’alim G’var. Unfortunately these days the alimim are Rabbonim who wave the flag of the Gushpanke d’malkeh. This is destroying the Rebbe’s community. Re’eh hizharticha!!!! Sof Ganon Tliyah!!!!!

• the truth

  Since when are Raitport and segal chavrei habadatz??

  Thet might have been asked to serve as morei tzedek, that does not maake the chavrei habadatz. The letter is mezuyof mitoichoi, has no bearing in this matter and is just plain an simply trying to protect individuals that are refusing to mediate and end the machloikes once and for all. this letter printed on badatz stationery is just a self serving piece of paper written in order to protect ones personal interests. I say, enough of this corruption.

• the truth

  Since when are Raitport and segal chavrei habadatz??

  Thet might have been asked to serve as morei tzedek, that does not maake the chavrei habadatz. The letter is mezuyof mitoichoi, has no bearing in this matter and is just plain an simply trying to protect individuals that are refusing to mediate and end the machloikes once and for all. this letter printed on badatz stationery is just a self serving piece of paper written in order to protect ones personal interests. I say, enough of this corruption.

• May Crown Heights be Blessed

  May Rav Osdoba be blessed in his holy work that the Rebbe intrusted him!!!

• Schechunah

  GO TO A DIN TORAH, STOP TRYING TO AVOID THE TRUTH, STOP TRYING TO WAESEL YOUR WAY OUT OF JUSTICE!!!!

• Shmuel

  Webby,

  You do a great job at keeping us ‘out-of towners’ in th loop but as much as I want to know what is happening in CH, I’d rather not see this posted on the ‘World Wide’ web.

  Keep up the great work!

• clarification

  Rabbis Segal and Raitport were appointed by rabbi Osdoba with the blessings of the vaaad Hakohol 4 years ago. The letter was signed bty Herzog Sperlin and Gross saying that with the haskama of rabbis Osdoba and Schwei they will be in the beis Din to help.
  I never saw the names of Shmuel pesach Bogomilksy or Nissen Mangel.

  I wonder what made Nissen Mangel sign a letter against the Rov? Did he loose a din Torah??

  If rabbi Schwei wants sholom as he says let him come out and endorse the election for another Rov.

• MEMBER KAN TZIVAH

  TO MAY CROWN HEIGHTS BE BLESSED:
  wHOSE TALKING ABOUT RABBI OSDOBA, WE’RE TALKING ABOUT RABBI BROOK!!!!!!

• Dovid

  1) L’Havdil in secular court you have something very similar. A person cannot just call some one to court. A judge first looks at the case to see if their is a real claim. And Harav Osdaba who is the Rov Kavuah of this Kehilah has a right to say if their is a real claim.

  2) Does anybody know that Rabbi segal sat at Din Torah’s With Rabbi Schwei.

• TO DOVID

  YES AT RABBI SCHWEIS BEHEST, NO, NO JUDGE LOOKS AT A CASE BEFORE IY GOES TO COURT, HE MIGHT SANCTION ONE OF THE PARTIES IF HE DEEMS IT FRIVOLOUS, BUT IT GOES BEFORE A JUDGE FOR TRIAL UNLESS HE GRANTS SUMMARY JUDGEMENT. BOTH SIDES ARE ALWAYS HEARD NO MATTER WHAT. DOVID, LEAVE IGNORANCE FOE COL, CHI HOSTS INTELLIGENT PEOPLE.

• the other end of the table

  Isn’t it ironic that Rabbi Fischer refused to come before the Badatz of Crown Heights, which Rav Osdoba was on at the time, and Rabbi Fischer asked for a zabla, because his position was that the Beis Din of Crown Heights was negah b’dvar, was prejudiced against him, and also he stated the halacha that a person should be allowed to choose a venue outside his town for a Din Torah. His request for a zabla was perfectly halachically legitimate and for this he was put into cherem by Rav Osdoba’s Bes Din. Rav Osdoba’s Beis Din back then used this as an excuse to allow the former Vaad Hakahol to haul Rabbi Fisher into goyish courts and
  a series of lawsuits in secular courts over a span of over 20 years ensued, without the Vaad Hakahol winning a single one. Now, the tables are turned. Rav Osdoba is using the exact same reasoning that was used by Rabbi Fischer, he is taking the exact same halachik position Rabbi Fischer took.

  How come what was not halachically permissible for Rabbi Fischer is now muttar for Rav Osdoba?

  I guess it all depends from which end of the table you are sitting.

  Next thing we know it Rav Osdoba, if he wants to be consistent, will have to put himself into cherem!

• Yossel

  Rabbi Osdoba mentions a "Bais Din Kavua"

  Today ther is no such thing as a Bais Din Kavua.

  There is a Bais DIn mechtzaf who is composed of less than three. At present there is only one elected Rabbi sitting at at a time. Rabbi Osdob’a standard Bais DIn is only two dayanim. No other Bais Din in the USA or Israel does that.

  If anyone Rabbi Osdoba chosses is considered "kavua" than anyone Rabbi Shwei chooses is considered "kavua".

• Chillul Hashem

  This posting of these letters on the internet and distibuting them in shuls is only causing terrible chillul Hashem.

  Our children are losing all respect for anything to do with Rabbonim or even yidishket.

  Why aren’t the Rabbonim worrying about the true problems in the shechuna.

  There ladies mikva is a shambles. Crime is on the rise. Our children are taking drugs. Tzinus is at an all time low.

  These are only some of the problems we are facing.

  Why can’t they get together and work on serious problems not just mi barosh?

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• Love my fellow Jew

  Dear Dovid dont be silly, if you are being called to a din torah for an issue in question you cant say I DECIDED its not an issue & Im not comming NO MATTER HOW GREAT YOU ARE (try that in court see where you will end up) the fact is they ( Rabbbi Osdoba, Rubashkin & company were called by respectable people from our community to a din torah bzablah to try & resolve some serious problems & issues that are on going. their refusal to come makes it very clear to all open minded people that THEY HAVE SOME THING BIG TO HIDE, BEFORE ITS TO LATE LET THEM DO WHAT IS RIGHT & YOSHER LIKE GOOD G-D FEARING MEN DO WHEN THEIR IS A MACHLOKES & GO TO DIN BZABLOH OTHERWISE THIS WILL END UP IN COURT. I KNOW SOME BODY FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY THAT WENT TO RUBASHKIN FOR tzedokah HE SHOWED ME THE DONATION HE GOT from rubashkin ITS A CHJCC CHECK AND THE MEMO SAYS CONSULTANTS FEE. so now you will understand what kind of a chicken market he made out of the beis din & CHJCC In general a convicted criminal should have never been allowed to run now were paying for it.

• Chaim

  It is very disappointing that hasideshe talmid chochom demands to be asked forgiveness from himself publicly. And for what? for calling to Din Torah!!! Is not this most appropriate for a Jew way to resolve any machlockes. (The threatening of court comes only after multiple attempts to call for Din Torah)

  I just cannot understand. There is terrible machlokes here. Why not Din Torah? What else, if not Din Torah can resolve it?

  May be election is resolution to machlokes. But I have missing link in Rubashkin logic. I can understand that there is need for one extra rov to resolve between existing two. But three more would favor the Rov who is favored by those who select candidates (In a busy time before pesach). And I think it is so clear whom Rubashkin favors. May be because of R. Shwei behavior? ok, so is Rubashkin retaliating?

  It is funny like he said in CH chronicle that he favors noone and than down few paragraphs starts saying not positive things about R. Shwei.

• Chaim

  First of all – who cares what happens in secular courts.
  Second, in secular courts, the justice system randomly selects a judge to determine if there is a claim (it’s not the defendant who chooses a judge that is his friend). Also, even if the judge rules against, one has the opportunity to appeal to a higher court – and ultimately have his case herd.

  In the case at hand, why shouldn’t there be a panel of 3 Rabbonim – agreed opun by BOTH sides – that should sit and determine whether the case has merit or not.

  For if this is not done, it means that cretin people are ABOVE Halacha! Each side has an agenda and therefore need to submit the case to a mutually agreed opun Outside (of the people involved) Din Torah – by the way, this is what is called ZABL”A.

  Without this, there is no way to end any dispute – its will just (C”V) bee “Kol D’alim G’var” – whoever is physically/vocally stronger/louder will prevail – regardless of justice and Halacha! Why are people so afraid to have the issue examined by non-involved parties? Isn’t that the way to achieve true justice/yosher and the will of the Torah?

  Just wondering… U’misaymin B’tov.

• Afraid of Hashem

  R’ Chaim, you wrote:

  <<Why is it that some people on the to are above the law, and could get away from appearing from a Din Torah? What are you afraid of – Hashem?

  <<The only people that are exempt Al Pi Din from appearing are Malchei Yisroel (not beis donvid) – and the reason given is not a positive one….

  The Satmar sent hazmanos to the Rebbe after the Sforim case, did he have to go there too? or should he have been put in siruv? who was he afraid of, Hashem?

• BrookAve

  At least our holy hood will have a new Mikva soon to purify our bodies, run across the street and read the holy legal briefs. Maybe catch a fight or two. Go CH Go!!!

• Menachem Mendel

  We must be careful when we say that the "N’tzigim are aligned against Rubashkin." It should be that the "Executive Committe of the N’tzigim" are against Rubashkin, Lang, and Plotkin (and sometimes Sperling). About 1/3 of the N’zigim may be opposed to Rubashkin. The chevre should know that the Executive Committee is attempting to kick out all members who do not follow their Kremlin-esque line. They have already kicked out 1 0r 2 friendly to Rubashkin and they are as relentless as the Yesveskia who worked for Stalin in ridding the N’tzigim of anybody who does not support them. The Rubashkin haters are mostly foreigners like Sondhause and Jacob Herzog; they are all tied to Rabbi Groner. They don’t read English very well and they don’t care either. Their way or the highway!

• truth

  The letter was signed bty Herzog Sperlin and Gross saying that with the haskama of rabbis Osdoba and Schwei they will be in the beis Din to help.

  pls read good again!
  rabbi schwei was not involved in the APPOINTMENT of segal reitport as DAYONIM.

• netzig

  menachem mendel

  the only person against rubashkin is rubashkin himself – let him show all the books to the audit committee according to the bylaws and let every memeber of the vaad have full free access to th ebooks. they have the right. can you please let th epeople know which netzigim were kicked out?

• a rachmones

  affraid of hashem

  you playing with fire!!!

• Dovid

  What about the points that Harav Osdaba made, that 1) Harav Segal is not a new appointment.
  2) That if a simple majorety decide something, that is who we follow.

• Concerned Chasid

  To the webmaster,

  You wrote: "response to the two refusal letters by R. Schwei"

  Rabbi Schwei’s letters were not reusals. They were stating that Rabbi Osdoba and the Rubashkin refuse to go to a din Torah.

  I vote to keep this machloikas off the web. If one doesz a web search for Lubavitch for let’s say to find a local Chabad House, etc. He will eventually find this web site and read in clear english all this stuff. We all have a responsability. It is one (terrible)thing to fight, but in public?!

• Dovid

  Harav Osdaba’s P’sak is consistent with his P’sak from privies years, that if their is a Bais Din Kavuah, all litigations have to go in front of them.
  We have Harav Osdaba and Harav Raitport (who was appointed by the same Vaad Hakahal as Rabbi Schwei) who both say that their are no valid claims and this case is frivolous.

  2) I think that the reason why the Baal Machokes don’t like R’ Moshe Rubashkin is because he was trying to bring peace to the community. (Like you see from their claim)

  3) A few years ago when these same Baal Machlokes needed Harav Osdaba they had only high praises to say about the Rav. (Like Avir Shebavirim)

• Meir

  Currently, there are only 3 chavrey Bais Din in Crown Heights – the ones duly elected by the COMMUNITY (and this the kind of Bais Din we have – ELECTED not appointed! If you read the Rebbe’s sichos about the Badat”z – ALL of them emphasize this point!). if the beis din needs assistance with some of their work, they can enlist the help of other rabbonim and even pay them for their work – but this does NOT make them Chavrei Habadat”z. therefore, there Is NO majority on anything at this moment (Rabbi Heller doesn’t get involved) therefore there is a deadlock.

  The ONLY way do get out of this is either they both come to some sort of agreement between themselves, or they have to work out their differences (quietly – out of the public spotlight) in front of mutually agreed apun – uninvolved Rabbonim (i.e. Zabla). If this is not done, then we will C”V keep this fight going and growing to the detriment of us all and especially the youth – who are loosing/lost any/all respect for everybody/everything….

  Wake up – its time to put an END to all this garbage. And this can not be done by FOURCE (from one side) rather worked out by rabbomin AL PI TORAH (not with a loud mouth and strong fist!)

• oy, tate zisser...

  I have a simple question: Rabbonim who disagree amongst themselves should ideally present their disagreements before another Bais Din.

  In this case, Rabbi Osdoba and Rabbi Schwei can’t seem to ‘geb zich an eitzeh", in which case they ought to go to, for example, "Mochon Lihoraah" of Monsey NY, or the like (Agudas Harabonim, Igud Horabonim, etc. ) and allow them to rule in accordance with the Halachah.

  But blasting each other in open letters to the community is absolutely futile.

  The only possible advantage may be that when the time for the elections come around (if they ever do), people will be able to vote with a clear understanding of how important this really is.

  But forevermore, there will be a group (like the excutive board of the netzigim, or like the group of very "choshuveh zkeinim" (morozov, wilshansky, shagalov etc.) that will contend that their case was never heard, Halachah was breached and the whole elections were a fraud.

  So the best thing imvh"o: get to a Din Torah by an impartial Bais Din!

• Motty

  To David

  Unfortunately there is no such thing today as Bais DIn Kavua especially in Crown Heights.

  What it really is – is a Bais Din Mecutazf that is a Bais Din that sits with 2 dayuanim. No other bais din in the world does this.

  The three chosen rabbonim refuse to sit with each other. How can this be a Bais Din kavua?

• sholom al yisroel

  please stop commenting on the internet against our RABBONIM. the only thing you will get out of it, is A CILUL HASHEM, and,give a din v’cheshbon on it, your reason of making fun of any ROV is surrely not LESHEM SHOMAYIM . DO NOT FORGET ,YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE A DIN V’CHESHBON on your comments

• BEN-TZION C

  As i have said before.That we have so much time on our hands to fight is a sign that we are not working at the prime directive which is to do more mizvous and learn.As a person who’s father lived through MACH’LO’KIS , i have seen first hand that it leads to nothing, just A’GE’TA. Every one thinks that they are correct and the truth is that i moved away from crown heights because of this. There are B"H other chabad shuls in other areas and we don’t have the issues .
  As a side bar maybe the CHA’LENT is spiked in crown heights and that might lead to all this stuff going on. It is not becomming of the REBBE’S community