Popular Kingston Ave. Cafe Loses OK Hechsher

In an announcement on their Facebook page, the OK Kosher certification agency said that they had removed their Hechsher from popular Kingston Avenue cafe, Chocolatte.

The announcement, which was posted at 10:46 this morning, on the OK Kosher’s Facebook page simply stated that ” Chocolatte (Crown Heights) had their #kosher certification removed for Kashrus violations.”

Rabbi Chaim Fogelman, director of marketing and education at the OK, told CrownHeights.info that the Cafe was operating without a Mashgiach present at all times, rendering the OK unable to vouch for the establishment’s Kashrus.

“Our commitment is first and foremost to the consumer,” he said. “We must ensure that when a consumer sees the OK symbol he is 100% confident about the uncompromised Kashrus of the product.”

Several attempts to contact the owner of Chocolatte were unsuccessful.

Update: The owner of Chocolatte made the following statement to CrownHeights.info:

At Chocolatte we are committed to the highest Kashrus standards. We appreciate the service the OK has provided us until now. We are working with local Kashrus organizations to rectify the situation, and we hope to have it all resolved shortly.

In the meantime, we are keeping the store in the highest standards of Kashrus. I remain in the store and am making sure that it is up to the same standards that I would adhere to in my own home.

At the moment, the same Mashgiach that has been working for us before remains, and he is checking our vegetables and other ingredients to ensure that our food meets the utmost standards for Kashrus.

Levi Harel,
Owner, Chocolatte

100 Comments

  • Outraged

    Im sure the CHK is loving this as now theyll have another customer. They wont even care why he lost his hashgacha. We should all stand up to owners like this and not patronize this store. Its an embarrassment to our community that a store could do such harsh violations that would cause the OK to pull their hashgacha. But to owners they dont care, as they know the CHK just needs to get paid in order to receive their stamp of approval.

    • history

      just for your info that their was a store in ch that lost its chk some time ago and the ok was very fast to take it.

    • embarrassment ?

      “embarrassment to our community that a store could do such harsh violations that would cause the OK to pull their hashgacha.”

      embarrassment ???

      how did the ok give hechsher in CH ?
      who gave them permission to violate CH ?

  • Milhouse

    Save the outrage. I remember when Cafe K lost their OK hechsher for “kashrus violations” which were nothing of the sort. It was really about money. I think it likely that this one is ultimately about money too. Remember that a business run by someone you know to be frum doesn’t need a hechsher at all. The owner’s own assurance that it’s kosher is enough. if you would eat in someone’s house you can eat at his store.

    • Not so sipmle

      There is letter of the Rebbe explaining the difference between eating in someone house and that very same person’s restaurant. It’s being a business makes owner approach very different. Rebbe quotes sources there.

      Also, as far as I know OK always goes extra mile to work issues out, if only out of mutual interest to continue doing business. I’m a bit surprised people don’t process that OK goes against it’s financial interest here.

    • Milhouse

      The halacha is clear that no hechsher is necessary. Any demand for a hechsher can only be an extra chumra.

    • Milhouse

      Everyone ate at Mrs Rubashkin’s restaurant on 13th Ave, which had no hechsher but her own.

    • It has a HP Hechsher!

      Hashgacha Protis: Best hashgocha around!

      If you can’t rely on Hashgacha Protis, what can you rely on?!

      Mabe Millhouse can be mashgiach???

    • Milhouse

      You can’t rely on hashgocho protis, because the Torah doesn’t mention that as a way of determining things. HP can make you eat treif or do other aveiros: וה׳ אינה לידו. So you can’t rely on it.

    • Milhouse needs a translation

      Hashgacha protis means your own private supervsion – as the owners are proposing, since they are shomer shabbos (therefore qualified to self-regulate), rather than availing themself to the services of an organizational supervision.

  • not true

    dairy establishments dont need a mashgiach tmidi it is just ok policy to have one

    • mashgiach

      today all food establishments need hashgacha there are too many pitfalls because of modern methods non-existent in the past. The halachic rules are always the same, but modern food establishments have changed

  • To Number 1

    I’m sure the only one who’s ‘loving’ this is YOU, as you are a חוטא ומחטיא את הרבים!

    Stop instigating fights with your insinuating ideas.

  • Libel

    ChocoLatte should contact a lawyer to pursue libel charges against OK.

    I think they lost their certification because of they failed to make a payment for the mashgiach.

  • ND

    The question that needs to be addressed prior to passing judgment is whether an establishment like the above needs a Mashgiach present at all times.

    • mashgiach

      in today’s world, where ingredients. including veggies, come from all over, where not family, but non-Jewish workers do most of the actual food prep, a mashgiach is needed. These ain’t grandpa’s food stores anymore, and more challenges to kashrus can be expected in the future.

  • toshveu hashchunah

    I heard they moved to the Braun “hechsher”

    YOU JUST LOST ME AS A CUSTOMER.

    and many more to follow.

    Stupid move.

  • shame on the OK

    posted at 10:46 this morning ???

    who takes the responsibility for the morning shoppers ?
    shame on the OK

  • better this way

    if we can eat from starbucks without a hechsher there is no reason this place needs one

  • IM"H

    Oy vey! I was hoping they would be as big as Starbucks! I hope they work that out.

  • IM"H

    By the way “Better this way,” I asked a Rav and he said we CANNOT eat/drink at Starbucks if they serve food. FYI most Starbucks serve pork/traife meat etc…. Be careful!
    Chocolatte – I wish you much success! You should work out all the Hechsher problems, and become as big as Starbucks!

  • mendoza

    MILLHOUSE YR WRONG 100 %
    IN YR HOUSE YR NOT MAKING $
    IN A STORE PEOPLE DO ALL KINDS OF STUF TO STAY ALIVE IN BIZZ

    • Milhouse

      The halacha is very clear that that makes no difference at all. The Beis Yosef doesn’t even require that you know the owner to be frum, just that he’s a Jew. The Ramo says that if he’s a business, then you need to know that he’s frum. But if you do know him to be frum everyone agrees that it’s OK, even in his business.

  • in support

    A. This establishment needs no Mashgiach, let alone a Mashgiach Tmidi

    B. This cafe is open 24 hrs/day. The OK wants the proprietor to pay for a Mashgiach Tmidi 24/6?

    C. If there was an actual violation of Kashrus standards, why was it not described in detail, to avoid further transgression?

    D. I have 5hrs 23min 56seconds till I can eat dairy again Just had a corned beef sandwich with lettuce, tomato, and Russian dressing, sided by frize and a LARGE cup of cherry-coke). I will then head over to CHOCOLATTE and get a coffee and a pastry. See you there!

    • Citizen Berel

      When you eat sandwiches what are sided, you don’t need pastries what have certification. Fight the power.

  • israel

    As OK was giving the hechsher, and its open 24 hrs, shouldn’t they have known if there was no mashgiach present?

  • all politics

    This is all politics. There are many hashgocha agencies that use mafia tactics to force companies or stores to pay huge amounts of money for no reason. Is this what hashgocha should be??
    Please detail the so called “kashrus violations”! To publicize such a thing without details and to make a bad name for a store for no reason is not at all ahavas yisrael. This is a simple coffee shop! This is all politics and all about money. If the money demanded would have been paid there would suddenly be no kashrus violations and hashgocha would still be there….

    • nothing to do with money

      Just spoke to OK. It seems that they relied on the owner as being frum to be in the restaurant at all times or have another frum person there.

      They found that this was not being done. One needs afrum person to insure the kashrus is kept properly. Remember the Boro Park restaurant who had a goy bring in non-kosher food?

      They also required that they use only Bodek vegetables or similar. A few times they found that the restaurant took in non checked leafy vegetables. This is extremely serious.

      They then required the owner as a result to have a full time mashgiach other than himself as they could not trust him.

      This has nothing to do with finances.

  • Yossi A

    To #4 even the OU has a mashgiach timidi in all milchig restaurants . Also knowing the shtick that the owner does no wonder he had to have a mashgiach tamidi.

    BTW not all ok milchig restaurants have a mashgiach timidi check out basil…..

  • Outraged

    If a dairy restaurant does not need a “mashgiach Temidi”. Then who turns on the ovens, who checks the vegetables. Who ensures that non-kosher ingredients arent being used. For anyone in the food business knows a Goy never understands the concepts of Cholov Yisroel and Pas yisroel. They know they need to put product out so the owner doesnt fire them. Theyll cut any corner to ensure that. Hashgachas ensure that these Kosher details are not lost or forgotten. We can all do whatever we want. But if you want to trust the food that goes into your mouth, you need to trust a reliable hashgacha. And if you think the OK would just come out and state they lost hashgacha for Kashrus violations, when in fact its money, dont kid yourself.

  • chani

    truth be told they gave a deadline to be paid extra and when requirements wasn’t met they took hashgacha down! it all boils down to money unfortunately these days…there wasnt a mashgiach tmidi for a long time and they never took off hashgocha then….

  • Yosef Avrohom

    Just spoke to OK. It seems that they relied on the owner as being frum to be in the restaurant at all times or have another frum person there.

    They found that this was not being done. One needs afrum person to insure the kashrus is kept properly. Remember the Boro Park restaurant who had a goy bring in non-kosher food?

    They also required that they use only Bodek vegetables or similar. A few times they found that the restaurant took in non checked leafy vegetables. This is extremely serious.

    They then required the owner as a result to have a full time mashgiach other than himself as they could not trust him.

    This has nothing to do with finances.

  • to #28

    You dont need a mashgiach tamidi to turn on ovens etc. A mashgiach can come and go , like in most restaurants that are not fleishig, and the ovens can be turned on by the owners who are Jewish. And if truthfully ok demands a mashgiach tamidi, why did they not demand it from day one? why only when the owners could not pay more money they took the hashgocha off?? so dont kid YOURSELF. yes, ok would come out and make some excuse if they are not receiving the money they ask for. Unfortunately a lot of hashgocha these days is politics.

  • chocolate fan.

    ive been to chocolatte so many times. milchig resturants dont need full time mashgiach. chocolatte is fine everyone!!! you can still eat by it!! ok is making a big deal just because of money which is not right.

  • to #30

    I am sorry but this still sounds very fishy. OK should remove their hashgocha because the owner was not there every single second of the day?
    how many stores have goyim standing there all day and the owner barely comes in yet they dont have mashgichim temidim. But in chocolatte the owner is there most of the time.
    And as for lettuce, if the store did not always use bodek lettuce that is something that should be fixed….but that is not a reason to take off hashgocha! That is the only kosher violation they are mentioning….so is that enough of a reason to remove an entire hashgocha?? the store is kosher, chalav yisrael.
    Give me a break. This is all money and not kashrus but the ok is hiding behind kashrus excuses and that is not honesty and not nice.

    • you must be a relative of the owner

      go learn some halacha, if there is even 1% that there is a question you should not eat from that place

  • to # 1

    i would be a good idea to learn the Rebbes sichos and begin to have some respect for what the Rebbe held so dear
    you’re a simple mechutzaf am haoretz

  • Not so sipmle

    OK says it relied on owner or another frum person to constantly be there. Only when they have found out it was not the case, they requested mashgiach.
    OK has vested interest in restaurants keeping their heksher.
    Think about it.
    What do they gain by removing hechsher? As far as I know OK always goes extra mile to work issues out, if only out of mutual interest to continue doing business.

  • Restaurant owner

    I was under the ok supervision. And had. A few other hechshers with other restaurants of mine based on location. And I will tell you. They are a real hechsher and a great hechsher.

  • Will

    I think due to the on going fights between
    Osdoba and Braun about kashrut

    All shop keepers in ch should switch to
    The ok and the fights are over.

    Then maybe someone wi be able to get
    A din Torah going in this god for shaken
    Neighborhood.

  • Fortune in Fudge

    Chocolates are fine there. If concerned about the lettuce and veggies, just order a milkshake instead.

  • Yossi A

    To #30
    Thats a VERY good question you should of the OK LABS. It is truly questionable where you have no shomer Shabbos person in the restaurant be it flaishig or milchig At ALL OU establishments there is a mashgiach tamidi flaishig milchig or even only parve.
    Open your eyes and smell the chocolatte……..
    Very interesting but sadly the truth. The OU is more makpid then the OK. when it comes to these issues..

  • Does sweet expressions have a mashgiach???

    Why does chocolatta need a mashgiach Tmidi??

  • not mentchlich

    I am sorry, but i dont find it mentchlich for the ok hashgocha to do such a thing. If the issue is truly the lettuce, then they should insist on bodek lettuce and warn the store and things like that…nobody should remove their hashgocha just over questionable lettuce! Years ago i ate in a restaurant under ok hashgocha and i saw the restaurant serving lettuce that was not being checked leaf by leaf and I asked the ok about it and they said it is fine as long as spot checks are done. So why are they making such an issue over non bodek lettuce? and if this is the issue, why did they not have their mashgichim in there checking the lettuce? only because the store cant afford to pay $15 an hour for a full time mashgiach? so if the ok is sincere about kashrus concerns, send the regular mashgiach in there a few hours a day to check all the lettuce!
    But to remove hashgocha so fast and then to cry kashrus violiations as an excuse because the money was not paid as requested…no, that is not right. Sorry, it is not the way a reliable hashgocha should behave!

  • Respectfully No

    Mr Harel,
    I dont know you so I cant say I would eat in your home or not..that being said..this is a store , and I for one find it QUITE the statement that OK found your supervision lacking

  • No hechscher??? WOW

    I would never eat in a place with no hashgacha, just like I wouldn’t eat at Papa Johns Pizza. I can’t believe these disgusting comments, I warned my kids today just in case. They want a hot chocolate, they’ll boil up the milk themselves. No hechscher = no eating OR drinking. They use the same sink to wash up stuff, don’t they, & the same goyim are working there.

  • declasse' intelelctual

    To all above: Some general rules and principles that I have observed as having being a masgiach for years and still is: All vegies have to be checked and double checked before usage. Those checked and stored have to be isolated and protected from everything else in what ever is used for storage–however, because of the nature of vegies they are usually prepped for use within a limited time period. All ovens have to be turned on by masgiach or left continiously on. All raw ingrediants( including packaging) used for finished products have to be checked at start of each day whether cold or regular storage; all incoming shipments have to be checked upon arrival. if bread is used in finished product, the issue of challah must be dealt with. While not an actual part of the process, safety issues become an unofficial official part of the process as well as items used for cleaning; I. e. Dawn which is a kosher cleaning agent packages industrial seize products without an OU–people have flipped out about this.
    Final thought: Koshrus is a dirty business woing to power, prestage and money.

  • declasse' intelelctual

    p. s. I have put people out of business for kosher violations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You cheat–you pay.

  • unimpressed with o k......

    Why doesnt the o k go snooping around a certain chinese resta, that uses their heksher and refuses to let the mashgiach into the kitchen and makes him sit in the dining area, hmmm?

  • I went in for yogurt

    And many times there were
    only non Jewish helpers. Since when do we rely on non Jews for kashrut?
    By the way, I’ve seen the same thing at Sweet Ex, not a Jewish worker in sight!

  • Yisroel

    Trusting only the owner for kashrus can lead to problems. One example ,was the owner of the meat market in mosey. We all remember he was selling traif. He was a trusted person in his community.
    Second – Starbucks
    The CRC from Chicago has a lot of info regarding Kashrus of items at starbucks
    Check out there web site
    Everyone Has to decide what level of kashrus they want to adhere to.
    I think lot of issues with Kalim cleaned with traifs

    • Milhouse

      The Shevach story is irrelevant. He had ne’emonus, and the Torah said to trust him. Those who trusted him and ate treif were following the Torah. And if an identical person, a Mr Binkel, were to set up shop the very next day, with the same credentials and the same apparent yiras shomayim as Finkel, the Torah would say to trust him too, exactly as if Finkel had never existed.

      The Torah says to trust two eidim, and even execute someone on their testimony, even though there have been many cases of eidim who lied and cheated. The Torah itself has laws for eidei sheker, and yet it still says that eidus is the best evidence there can be. The day after a pair of lying witnesses are caught, you still have to trust the next pair that come along.

      And the same applies to eid echod ne’emon be’issurin. One who says that because of Shevach this is no longer a halacha is an apikores. He’s contradicting the Torah. You can be machmir on yourself and choose not to eat; nobody has a chiyuv to eat what they don’t want. But nobody has the right to say that eid echod is not ne’emon.

    • Yisroel

      To Milhouse
      Trust But Varify
      I said it COULD Lead to problems
      If you were one of the people that had eaten treifes and became part of your living body would you say oh well?
      I thought it was Kosher
      Yes, Halacha does change from time to time. For example the water. To filter or not to filter that is the question

    • Milhouse

      Following the Torah could lead to problems, but that doesn’t give us the right to change it. If the Torah says וספרה לה, from which we learn that עד אחד נאמן באיסורין, then that is what we must accept, no matter how many times problems occur. Halocho doesn’t change.

  • CHT

    I passed by this evening, they palyed Carlebach. Right across from 770 where he was not welcomed. It made connection in my head that just few days ago I seen and ad in non-Jewish magazine featuring musicle about Carlebach life where Carlebach is pictured nisht shoimer negia.

    Anyways, the worst in my mind is: I had never seen a museum without a gift shop – and I had been in MANY. It is all to make three food places – not even two (I had not seen a museum with two food places), THREE. (I hear: surviving, survivng – remember the museum was never counting on ability to make profit). Now – what is the gift shop in Jewish Museum? Judaica – the chance for visitors to bring some Yidishkait artifacts home.

    I wish for food business there fail and gift shop (Judaica) back. This museum was meant to be spiritually unique – and absolutely not the vice versa.

  • there is a boss

    just so you know the hasgocha was removed for violations of Ok policy not kashrus issues.

    therefore another hechsher knowing the issues can come in and try to work out the problems.

    the guy is a good man but didn’t pay careful attention to the Ok policy’s hopefully he will get a second chance with a new rov..

  • again

    How, how did the ok gave them an Hechsher to begin with?!?! Did the Ok forget what happened in the Baggute toast a few years ago? (Same owners) back than the Ok also took the Hechsher off when the Harel brothers said they will be the mashgichim and when they’re not there they will jave a diffrent mashgiach. Which they never did. (Trying to save money) ppl were complaining that they saw buga in lettuce. And the eggs for omlets wasn’t checked. This is serius! Trusting ppl like that isn’t fair for our community!
    Its the owners that are making up all these stories of tje ok wanting more money. We should all stop supporting ppl who don’t bother caring about the quality of food they sell.

  • NoYechi770InJerusalem

    Back in the day neither Hymies (Ess & Bentch)Mermelstein’s,Shriptzer’s or the Satmar owned restaurant on Kingston & President had a hecsher nor did any of the butchers yet being that the baal habayis was a shomer shabbos & ehrlicher Yid everybody trusted it & ate there.
    If the owner & workers are frum why can’t they just do yotzei v’nichnas & not have a mashgiach on premises?

    • mashgiach

      I remember that too. The Satmar chossid was Rosenbaum, I think. Today workers are almost always not Jewish and the owners are not always there or don’t always manage the restaurant, giving that job over to one of the managers. The restaurants you mentioned were heimish and we all knew the families involved. The real picture today is no longer the same.

  • to #5

    If ok was going against their own financial interests they would not demand such a high price for hashgocha or mashgichim. Then the owners would be more than happy to comply and have a mashgiach temidi there if the price would be more reasonable. So if the issue is really kashrus, let the ok reduce their prices. So they are not going against their own financial interests….they are still charging a lot and demanding payment. When it is not received, they take off the hechsher and cry kosher violations.

    • Embarrassed

      Blame game aside – how can our flagship children’s museum that just promoted kosher day be attached to such a situation. This negates the entire purpose of the museum.
      Either way the place is now dead bec we are going to be playing the Chasidish game — judging everyone walking in.This should have been resolved internal.

  • bochur

    i heard that chocolatte agreed to have mashgiach tmidi so yes it is about the money, for if they agreed to have mashgiach then whats the problem?

  • to #20 Eat from Starbucks?

    People (the ones who are ok with it) drink black coffee from Starbucks and on airplanes etc but they don’t eat the food. Eating food from a restaurant is naturally a whole different story. No one is imposing anything on anyone, you can eat where and when you like. The issue concerns those who choose to conform to certain standards of kashrus and want some trustworthy verification about stores where they buy food.

  • lubavitcher

    I don’t care which hashgocho they use. I only care which hashgocho they shouldn’t use, because if Braun is hired, I will never step foot in there again. CHK, OU or OK are all fine by me. BraunK, no way no how.

  • to #50

    Just reading your comment was confusing- talking about all the ‘Rebbe held so dear’ and then calling someone names that the Rebbe for sure never called a fellow Jew in his 92 years of life.. Outbursts like that make any comment, even the most intelligent, lose all credibility. You can disagree with another person’s opinion without making yourself disagreeable.

  • Yossi A

    To 66
    Thats why the OU requires a mashgiach. The store owner as erlich as he may be, there is still a conflict of interest.

    To #70
    Your key word is “EHRLICHER YID” something many who know the proprietors of chocolatta have issue with….

  • there is a boss

    good news the guy got another chance with the new rov but with strings attached.

  • Shlumper

    If you knew the owners, even a Mashgiach Temidi would not convince you to trust these owners.

    They don’t believe in anything we practice. They just want our money.

    One brother owns a non kosher restaurant in Jerusalem

  • Abba

    As of when I passed by the store at around 10:30 pm tonight the store in now under rabbi schewi and Rabbi Braun

    • So sad

      to fall to terrorist tactics? Remember the pre-Rosh Hashana “$10,000 fine if you continue to display the CHK” letter?
      Sorry. I don’t trust them.

  • Braun hecscher?

    I won’t eat there if he gives it. I’m glad I found out Kingston Bakery has his hechscher, I won’t buy there again. He doesn’t have semicha how can I trust him over anyone else? Who says he knows anything? Besides he is a fraud.

    Show me the SEMICHA!

    • AGREED!!!

      Braun isn’t a Rav, never will be, and I wouldn’t eat in HIS house either. I won’t go into Kingston bakery either for the same reason. As far as I am concerned it doesn’t have a hechscher.

  • again

    You guys won’t trust Rabbi B. But ull trust those brothers??? All they want is our money. Wearing a yarmulka doesn’t mean they are realigius. Growing a beard doesn’t mean they did teshuva. All they care is how to make money without having to pay a mashgiach. Shame on them!

  • Citizen Berel

    The OK is extraordinarily upright Kashrus Organization. If Rabbi D. Y. Levi himself makes a statement regarding this issue, which he has, I’ve no doubt at all that it is forthright.

    Aside from that Rabbi Levi is an respectable yid, there are so many people within the OK who know the actual details of this issue that for the Supreme Rabbi and CEO of the OK to state on websites anything but the absolute truth (at least as he sees it) is utter madness.

    This coffee shop is a bag of coffee beans to the OK, so all the it’s-all-about-the-money just need to stop.

    As for this coffee job…I don’t know–Citizen Berel drinks instant–but when you open a restaurant in the Rebbe’s schuna across the street from beis Rabbeinu shebeboval you need to make sure that your kashrus is beyond any question. That this coffee shop failed in that is all that need be said.

    The coffee shop is ugly and tainted and needs to go away.

  • to#91

    THEY AGREED TO HAVE MASHGACH TEMIDI FOOL! even for that crazy price an hr they agreed! so whats your prob now!?

    • Citizen Berel

      The problem is that they needed advanced levels of supervision.

      Only those whose first commitment is to kashrus belong operating eateries across the street from 770.

      Kashrus needs to be obvious for an eatery in schuna and whoever isn’t holding there is a squatter.

  • Jason

    This is First and Formost a Kosher Food Business, Operated By a Chossid/ Jew / Yid/ Chabadnik

    It happens to be a Deli as well,

    No further Inquiry on High level Standard Of Kosher, is Needed,

    Shalom !

  • Won't eat there anymore

    Several comments;

    1. As someone who has been in and out of the food business I can say eidus on the OK. They are an extremely ehrlich organization, and would never ever say something bad about someone for financial reasons. I too had money issues with them, and they bent over backwards to work with me. They had every right to be much harsher with me, but chose not to. They were much nicer about it than I had any right to expect.

    Any body who says this was about money is a liar, a fool, or just plain ignorant.

    2. ALL FOOD ESTABLISHMENTS MAKE MISTAKES. Some major, some minor. How the establishment handles the mistakes is the issue.

    For example, a Frum supplier substitued a product without an ou for the one I originally ordered (with the ou). The non jewish workers began using this product before I noticed the difference. Now the question is what to do. Do I: a. throw out the box, hope nobody will find out, and keep using the product because its the Frum supplier’s fault, not mine? or b. do I throw out the remaining product and not worry about the keilim and other shailos because its probably kosher, and besides its all batul? or c. Do I immediately call the hashgocha agency and stop using any of the questionable keilim?

    3. ALL NON JEWISH WORKERS BRING THEIR OWN FOOD IN. You can offer them you own food for free, you can order them not to bring in their own food, they will not listen. you can fire ten workers for bringing in their own food, and the eleventh will still do it. And they will use your keilim with their food.
    3
    4. The OK requires all restaurants to have a shomer shabbos person on premises at all times. It is an explicit requirement. They make it quite clear before taking on an establishment. If you think you know the halacha better than they do, and you feel this requirement is wrong, Don’t use the OK.

    But don’t use some half baked, ill-informed, misunderstood, and out of context reading of Shulchan Aruch to justify not doing what you agreed to do.

    5. As far as references to the Cafe K fiasco, if you don’t know what you are talking about, shut up. I don’t want to get into Lashon Hora here, but I know what happened there. And the OK was 1000 percent correct.

    6. Unlike in previous times, food processing is so complicated today that even Milchig establishments need a much higher level of supervision. Fish, eggs, oils, seasonings, all have issues. What about stabilizers, thickeners, emulsifiers, etc. (Do you even know what they are and why or how the concept of bitul may not apply?) Do you know that oils from Spain and oils from Italy may have different halachic classifications? How about caffeine? Do you know alcohol may be used to extract caffeine? Or used in the production of vanilla? Or that your bar of Chocolate in your cabinet may have oil in the ingredients? Or that some yeasts are deliberately grown on grapes?

    Now explain it to me slowly, so that can understand, why milchig restaurants are not as complicated as fleishig ones.

    7. Milhouse, either you have no idea what you are talking about with regard to Cafe K, or you are an out and out deliberate liar.

    8. Even though I am a talmid and supporter of Rabbi Osdobo, (and b’li neder, choose not to patronize establishments with the other hechsher,) the other Rabbonim are talmedei chachomim and are entitled to at the very least a minimum of derech eretz. Before posting about people on “the other team” stop for a moment and contemplate what the Gemoroh Sanhedrin would say about your comments.

    Finally, it is not hard to believe that a store that habitually shows contempt for their customers would extend that contempt to Kashrus as well.

    • A Big Yasher Koyach

      for number 8. in your comment stating ‘the other Rabbonim are talmedei chachomim and are entitled to at the very least a minimum of derech eretz. Before posting about people on “the other team” stop for a moment and contemplate what the Gemoroh Sanhedrin would say about your comments.’

      I personally follow Rabbi Braun, but I wouldn’t dare disrespect Rabbi Osdoba. I personally eat from both. Are they any less kosher or are the Halochos any different because of politics?!?!

      Either way, well done for pointing out the lack of Derech Eretz. I find it very inspiring. :)