In a new letter, two members of the Crown Heights Beis Din declared that child molesters have the Din of a Rodef and therefore it is permissible to inform on them to the police and courts, given that there is real evidence of abuse.
Beis Din: Informing on Molesters – Not Messirah
In a new letter, two members of the Crown Heights Beis Din declared that child molesters have the Din of a Rodef and therefore it is permissible to inform on them to the police and courts, given that there is real evidence of abuse.
The letter, signed by two of the Rabbonim – Rabbis Yaakov Schwei and Yosef Braun, goes into explaining how severe the ramifications of abuse are and how much they effect children, and that someone who does not act on the knowledge of abuse is transgressing on “Lo Taamod Al Dam Reiacha”.
This letter comes on the heels of a number of stories coming out of Australia where certain offenders were exposed, as well as rumors of offenders living in Crown Heights.
Stand Up
While I applaud these Rabbis for stepping forward and speaking on this ‘taboo’ topic, I must say that as a member of this community I am mildly displeased. Why are the Rabbis washing their hands of any need to deal with this? Why are they just saying ‘go to the authorities, it’s ok’ and not dealing with it themselfs?
if Rabbis were to take on this issue head on, I believe it would bring to far more detterance and would carry so much more weight with the people.
It’s high time the Rabbis enabled usnto restore some faith in their Rabbinic institution, and not just hand off the responsibility to other. Come out with letters banning these perv’s from being part of Minyanim! Don’t let them attend our communal functions!
Stand up to abuse.
why?
why does it have only 2 signatures and then how can it be on the ch besdin letter head if its not a representation of all three rabonim?
Why doesnt R Osdaba agree or put his name to it?
why is there still no unity in the bes din?
Im glad theyve come out with a statement like this – but will it help?? are we going to see a wave of investigations/arrests against molesters?
Oy its such a sad world we live in – its sad that it happens and its sad what its going to do to our communities!
Late but welcome
If anyone is aware of serious child abuse they didn’t have to wait for Beis Din approval to report it however now that they joined the 21st century and gave their ok it is welcome and hopefully it will help to stop this black cloud on our society.
GERET UN GARNISHT GEZOGT
GERET UN GARNISHT GEZOGT
Lots of Talk but this letter say NOTHING.
i will refer the public to the Thierd Paragraph
“AN ABUSER IS CONSIDERED A RODEF AT THE TIME OF ATTACK”
the rabbi’s are looking to cover their own ass ???
if you are leader of a community DEAL with the problem.
what kind of letter is it to say at “THE TIM OF ATTACK”
who ever cought an abuser at the time of attack ???
so if you are “rabbi’s”
get off the high horse and take care of the abusers.
STOP THE HOT AIR TALK SAY NOTHING.
given that there is real evidence
“given that there is real evidence of abuse” there are some people that like ruining peoples life because they have a hunch and dont know forsure, be careful! to spread a rumor about someone will come back to haunt you!!!!!!!!!!!
jailtime
@stand up, because they need to be inside a jail cell, not banished from some communal functions.
dovid
I’d like to see more statemnts of this kind.
your neighbor
Stand Up:
If you didn’t notice. The train has left the station. By publicly declaring that a molester has the din of a rodef and therefore one may indeed report such a person to the proper legal authorities, “these Rabbis” are “dealing” “head-on” with the problem. Their unequivocal stance does, in fact, serve in restoring the communities confidence by serving notice on the perpetrators and beginning to address the underlying factors in our community and homes that allow for such incidents to occur.
Hypocrites
Yaakov Schwei is guilty of the transgressing on “Lo Taamod Al Dam Reiacha”.
He stood by silence while six innocent Jews stood trial facing 15 plus years prison, while a MESIRA was taking place and the Mossrim used his name to do it.
Read this letter send to Schwei at the time.
http://machanemenachem.word…
Besides; We don’t need the tow above “Rabbi’s” to inform us about this issue, which is already known to all.
This letter is just another tool to try and impose/promote Braun!
crazy!!
wasnt aware that reporting on child molesters was previously some sort of mesira and needed permission to report!!!???
what ever happened to laws of the land that the rebbe was so vehement on!!!
Ploy to Legitimize Braun
its just to put Braun out there and trying to legitimize him.
what they are saying is nothing new.
They us this subject of abuse because its a subject no one can argue with.
Hay, you fooling the fools.
Moshe
To # 9:
You are a minuvel, mishuketz, mesuav and a a moitzee shem ra, loser.
You lost and get over it.
WHERE IS #3
Does that mean that RABBI OSDOBA DISAGREES, AND DOES NOT ALLOW REPORTING MOLESTERS TO THE AUTHORITIES?
Please update us.
To all the naysayers!
Unfortunately, the Rabbis in this article don’t have the unconditional following and support they need in order to rule the community, in a way that would force molesters to think twice before attacking. therefore, I applaud the effort of talking about it openly, and yes, giving ahead-of-time permission, and actually ‘pask’ening that one ‘must not remain silent’ and has the obligation to report, this is not just washing hands, they are actually taking an active in role in fighting this sickness.
Hatzlacha rabbah al mamlachtchem.
Very Happy!!
Its About Time That Something Like This Was Done! Thank You!
Happy Crown Heightser
This is Golden! We are the second Orthodox community in the world to come out with such a statement. Kudos to the Rabbis for taking a stand!!!!!
surprised at CH.info
how do you allow the negative comments against the rav?
kalman
the first thing the bad az did since their founding!
(may be the last)
binyomin
we need to hear from Rabbi Osdaba if this psak is bli shum pikpuk!
Thank you Rabbi-s
A very bold steep in the war to take away the Stigma of reporting abuse.
What the victims and others that know of abusers have to realize is; If you DONT report the abuse to the police, the molester WILL – with nearly 100% certainty abuse again. the life-long trauma and hell that was brought on you will now happen to another innocent child.
DEAR “VICTIMS” if you go to the police about being abused you are a HERO!!!
KOL HAKOVOD
Its a new day here in Crown Heights. I am impressed that these two Rav’s have made a stand to end this terrible thing here in our community. Let’s see if the third will join in… Rabbi Ozdabah, nu?
Rabbi-s with Sechel
Boruch Hashem. its about time.
Yasher koach Rabbis Schwei and Braun
This may be the greatest achievement you will be zoiche too in your life.
There are at least HUNDREDS of people in the Lubavitch community that have been sexually abused as children.
The affect on the victims is catastrophic. in many cases they’re anger, pain, hurt and guilt which they suffer with on a daily basis makes then turn to drug and alcohol abuse, many of them are depressed and turn away from Yiddishkit. even those that show no outward signs of trauma continue to suffer for the rest of they’re lives.
There may not not be a disproportional amount of perverts in our community but the climate and condition of the Lubavitch way of life is the perfect habitat for molesters.
The reasons being:
The Mashpia concept allows adults to develop a very intimate (and at times – inappropriate) relationship with teenagers and children. (many times with adults giving teenagers alcohol)
The Mikva which is unique to frum Jews is the ground zero for molestation.
Sending young children away to overnight camp for two months and sending young teenagers away to Yeshiva for the year allows the abusers an easier climate to abuse that will go undetected by the parents.
Ignorance from parent’s because the issue is (was) taboo, the parents also don’t educate their children on the dangers.
And the biggest cause is, that because of the stigma of reporting abuse for reasons of Family name/shidduchim/misunderstanding of hallach/etc etc most abusers are never go to jail and this allows them to abuse many other children.
This bold step by the Bais din may save countless Jewish Lives.
A DISAPPOINTED CHASID!
This is a Psak? It is a opinion by one Rav & one wannabee that is shamelessly being issued as a Psak of a Bais din when it is not.There is a need to deal with abusers but it must be done in accordance with a actual Bais din Not unlearned opinion from a phony who wishes to impose himself upon us & not comply on his own with what he knows must be done including answering a Hazmanah from Another Bais din on a serious matter brought about by his shenandigans
Good Stuff
KUDOS to Rabbi Bruan and Rabbis Shwie, I was never fan of that camp, but you do not need permission from a Rabbi to call the Police on a child molster, people have NO IDEA of the trama from victimes of Chid Molestation.
IF there is an abuse on a child CALL the police ASAP, do not even think of consulting any Rabbi, Rabbis do not know how to handle child molsters.
misrah its not
wonder if all shmayra over at failedmassiah.com is going to count this as a personal win .. fact is he has been at the forefrunt of this crusade .. cudos on the rabbanim. Now let see if OT and ULY will weed out all the molesters in midst of the staff.. and yes there is a prominent mashpiah who is more than rumoured to be guilty.
annon
i agree with the psak and think it is a great thing.
However i do see this as a political ploy to rally populist support for issues that are very dear to us. because they signed this letter without rabbi osdoba.
its an attempt to bring support for R’ Braun and Schwei. at the expense of Rabbi osdoba.
I await to hear rabbi osdoba’s response to this.
also I know first hand Rabbi Osdoba’s support for calling the police and going to court to stop child abuse
Doctor
For those who still think that the Rabbis have to deal with such issues and use the tools available to the community, I have to tell you, unless the stoning is an available option there no tools the community has to deal with such monsters.
cool so can we kill them?
if its a din of a rodef and you cant be matzil beechod mievorov, can we kill them?
careful
yes it is good hype etc, but calm down and think.
i am not bashing Scwei or Brown, but realistically neither one has any kind of expertise in dealing with major issues such as this.
Swei became a rabbi at 71 and brown is fresh out of diapers. you need vast experience to deal with these kind of issues, this is not to say that what they wrote is wrong, but the one % chance that that it may not be true, how hurt will this person be?
did they have any people at the meeting that deal with these kind of issues on a daily basis? did they have any other experienced rabonim at the meeting?
this is very dangerous territory for inexperienced people to be involved in.
we need Shea Hecht, and other psychologists etc to deal with this.
@ 28
how true your statement is and how sad it is that this is one of the most vicious horrors that is perpetrated within our community and so many people know so little about.
from what angle...
if the CH Beis Din is the second one in the world to come out with a psak like this then i would think that its either the smartest move or the worst.
in almost all cases of child sexual abuse in the orthodox communities the victim (for many diff reasons) are brought to the locale rabanim to deal with it. and if history is a gauge on whether or not that was effective, its clearly not.
these 2 rabonim realized that they don’t have the tools to deal with these kinds of crimes but at the same time want to end it and thank god are willing to have these predators put in jail. Even if in the short term the community etc will look bad. God bless them.
Eli
harav yy braun …. you pulled thru and showed your true colours. your a strong guy and did the 100% right thing. this is a big and bold move fwd and a big step in letting every one know that this behavior will never be acceptable and wont be protected by your beis din. lo zi derech avoseini
to #26 and #23
who in ot and lubavitch yeshiva are molesters? if you are passionate about this subject and don’t want people to get away with it and you know who molesters are, then tell us so that we can protect our kids.
unfortunately, molesting is widespread and not unique to the frum community. it gets swept under the rug everywhere. even the legal system doesn’t do enough to protect children and many molesters dont sit in jail and even when they do they do not sit long enough. those who commit fraud sit longer then those who molest innocent children. while it is a problem that we have to solve, it is self hating as a jewish frum person to imply that the problem is more rampant and more exclusive to the frum world because we go to the mikvah and have yeshivos. in fact, most molesting happens among close family or family friends.
I loooooove the way people write...
I loooooove the way people write you don’t have to listen to a rov when it comes to reporting an abuser and then in the same statement ridicule these Robbonim for making such a statement.
FOOLS!!
you are making the same statement as they are – that it would not be mesira and that you can report it without asking a rov!!
AFTER JAIL
Just wondering. Let’s say the molesters finally
do jail time for their crime. After he(even she)
gets out of jail, do we give them a clean slate,after all, they got punished for it, or do we stigmatize them for the
rest of their lives (warning people to beware of such an
individual)?
Levi
This is a very welcome and bold move by the Beis Din.
When there is clear evidence of abuse – the abuser MUST be stopped. If you don’t stop him, he will abuse countless others and destroy their lives.
This is very sad, but it must be acted upon FOR THE SAFETY AND WELLBEING OF OUR CHILDREN
Action
Though the Rabbi’s are correct, this does NOT exempt them from their obligation to take Halachic action in their own hands. The Rabbis are to proclaim this person to all communities- plaster his name all over the streets, and the internet- to excommunicate such a person from society!
avrum montreal
pinhas took the halacha in his hand
not always we have the time and opportunity to go ASK a rov ( if you get tru or find him ) and get an answer “well let me look in the matter” is t this way or etc.etc”
this problem was address 10 years ago (or more) why are the rabbis waking up today?
Thanking our distinguished Rabonim
To all that elect to criticise our Rabonim will you please at least have the courage to write your names. Do you know what a pashkvile is ???
Thanks to our revered Rabonim for elucidating and giving a clear psak din.
To all pedophiles you have been warned if you need help get help before you bring shame on yourself and your families.
Test them out!
There are at least 3 well known pedophiles in positions of influence within the CH community, I challenge one of these “Rabbonim” TO HAND THEM OVER TO THE COPS. Or at least give a private ruling allowing one of them to be handed over, but they won’t, as this is all fluff without any substance.
Until they do so this piece of paper will remain just that, a stunt to legitimize the new “Rov” and an attempt to marginalize the only real Rov on the CH B”D.
It’s shocking that there are people out there in our community willing to use this issue for political gain.
Thank you
Thank you Rabbonim.
Everyone should give credit for this letter, instead of bringing up other issues
antimesira
Dear Number 12. Moshe who wrote:
“To # 9:
You are a minuvel, mishuketz, mesuav and a a moitzee shem ra, loser.
You lost and get over it.”
Putting the name calling aside and dealing with the issue.
If number 9 is a loser then you must be a winer.
Please explain what number 9 lost and what you won.
Nothing Wrong
I’m not a big fan of Rabbis Schwei and Braun – but I don’t see what’s wrong with this letter!
Hershel Moss, Crown Heights
Why didn’t Rav Osdaba sign?
please be more careful
why do you alow comments like # 4-the rabbis cover their own a..? please we don’t need this low ,vile language on a lubavitcher web site and it’s not the first time!
Molesters are the worst
We should kill all the molesters. they undermine the sanctity of the world, weaken the community and destroy lives. They need to be beaten and killed and maybe even stoned. However thank G-d for the american justice system, which will probably send them to jail to be beaten stoned and maybe killed or molested by the inmate there
Let-s think about this
for #23 and others, Unfortunately, the typical rabbi is not equipped to deal appropriately with such matters, because such matters are not specifically part of their education; they are in a general way, in that harm to another is, of course, unacceptable. But this issue requires specific knowledge and skill beyond the scope of what they are familiar with, for the most part. If there are rabbis who have this specific training, they should come forth and share their knowledge. I am far from an expert on matters of your community, so I do not know if seeking out another part of Chasidic culture is encouraged; but I do know that Rabbi Abraham Twerski is a very respected doctor versed in such issues, and I have read some of his statements about this topic. Is there any reason that he, or at least his studies, etc., can not serve as one reference point? At any rate, it seems to me that bringing things into an open forum is quite healthy, in that the victims do not have to feel hurt further due to some unspoken agreement that it all is so horrible it can’t even be put out there. Silence in this situation is an enemy, as are fear and shame. Awareness is a friend, as are honesty and action. I respect the two rabbis who at least took the issue out from under the rug. Some might not like it, but if it is not done, then to me it says noone cares about the abused, but everyone wants to protect the abuser. Or it says that noone knows what to do, because they have no background to deal appropriately with this malignant problem. I ask you to care about the victim, take appropriate action on the perpetrator, and seek information from the right places so that there is a base of knowledge that befits the task . Thank you, shalom, G-d bless.
moshe
TO #43 ANTI MESIRA:
I am the one who wrote to # 9. It seems that the original # 9 has BH been removed, the one that was there when I wrote my comment (#12), was the one I was directing my comment to.
shuli
This has nothing to do with Rabbonim! Get these sick people into jail!
worlwide registry needed
while i am not a fan of these rabbonim i beleive this is long overdue and worldwide we need to set something up to stop these people in our community
just last year in nmb a man was accused of sleeping with his own daughters and it was covered up
why dont we ask for the rabbonim to set up a worldwide registry of molesters in our community so they are not going elsewhere to continue
every rosh yeshiva who has had a history also should be checked out especially with e.p. in ohelie torah
Your neighbor
I doubt that Pinchas ben Aaron stormed into that infamous tent while in a blind rage. We know that he first applied to Moshe Rabbeinu and when a definite answer was not forthcoming Pinchas understood that his responsibility was to then proceed to address a terrible wrong. So too in our present case; Let some emergency mechanism be established to act swiftly but responsibly. The sooner the better. If we do not act with all due speed then a coarse and inept vigilante justice is all that remains to us when acting upon this crisis.
name names
I love how people talk about ‘known’ molesters and how the rabbonim should do something about it; yet they do not mention any names or do something themselves. dont just make it sound bad and say there are many molesters etc. if you know about it do something about it!!! dont expect everyone else to do the dirty work, speak up!!!!
Very hot topic
This issue is such a hot topic, no wonder most of the comments are on fire! OF COURSE they are on fire, and the harmful fire must be extinguished before it spreads to further destroy innocent lives. I can’t imagine that any chabadishe person wants our precious children scarred by such a terrible violation. The question I have is: To what lengths are those with certain power in the community willing to go in order to stop this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE? And to what lengths are they willing to go in order to stall, hide, protect, remain in denial, appear oblivious, avoid, invalidate, blame the victim, protect the abuser, and maintain silence and inaction? Whatever the reason for their letter, at least the two rabbis involved said SOMETHING publicly. I hope the next step brings further healing where it needs to be, which is for the victims, and for the community that we live in. Moshiach now.
wonderful first step!
Thanks, Rabbis, you sure upset a lot of people who either molest, or are related to or protect molesters, some of whom commented above…
It was to prevent you addressing issues vital to the safety of our community that many powerful forces within the community fought tooth and nail to prevent you from taking power.
Now they will fight even harder to remove you, so as to continue their reign of evil, serious evil, unhindered.
One question: If someone comes to you to ask what to do about a case of sexual abuse, will you simply tell them to contact the police?
Because that’s not enough. You are a mandated reporter by secular law, and every Jew is a mandated reporter by Torah law (lo saamod). You have to pick up the phone as well as the victim, especially as your call will make the police investigate better. As is well known, especially in CH, a few bucks in the right pocket can make an investigation vanish into thin air…
Rumors are tricky
To #5: Yes, there are people who start rumors that prove to be false, At the same time, there more often are rumors that prove to be true. This can be a complicated situation, as I have become familiar with it through study and conversation. Here are a few examples: Someone accused actually has violated a child, but they are unaware of the wrongness of their actions; someone accused has violated a child, but has a sickness, therefore does not see the act as a violation; someone has violated a child, but has been abused himself and continues the cycle out of past experience; someone has violated a child repeatedly because he has gotten away with it and feels powerful in his “success”; someone has violated a child, but is so entrenched in the perpetration that his denial has reached a level of righteous indignation. With these examples I have tried to show that while some rumors are false, more rumors need to be addressed within an appropriately-trained environment. Almost always, in that venue, truth will prevail. Yes, there are times when one is falsely accused, but again, experts trained in this field are available to thwart faulty outcomes. I think that in the end, the crucial points would be : Those dealing with the problem be informed about the complicated nature of the issue without bias or agendas; Those dealing with the issue have first and foremost the victim’s healing as the priority; Those dealing with the issue have in place a plan of action which includes treatment and consequences.
modechai
I have seen a few commentators begin their words with the statement, “though i am not a fan of these rabbis…”.
My question to you is who are you to say if you are a fan or not, since when is Shulchan Arocha Facebook personality that you like?! It is absurd that in LUbavitch there are people who treat Rabbonim like personality icons that need to be “liked”.
Rodef
A child sexual abuser is not only a rodef at the time of attack, they are always a rodef, because neither Torah nor modern science has discovered the means of turning back the mental switch in perpretators that makes abuse an urgent and irresistable need that never fades. All statistics loudly scream: Once an abuser, always an abuser. Unless they are physically prevented from attacking by jail or other real means, they will always attack again.
Please let the Rabbis update their statement to make it more realistic.
A Critical issue/ Disgusting politics
Rav Osdoba was not shown the document.
Wake up and smell the politics in all this.
Confused
To #41: That is very scary. How is it (or how is not not) being handled? You write that there are at least 3 KNOWN perpetrators in the community. If this is the case, who else knows of their actions? How is it being handled?
Does anyone know?
Do we know why Rav Osdoba’s signature was not there? I mean REALLY know, not just speculated or political “know”.
declasse intellectual
It is time to be realistic about child abuse and domestic abuse. Too many times this is hidden under the cover of ignorance, this is always the way, not my worry, I do not know what to do with this and so forth. And, it continues, there has to be an established system to deal with this and this is where the community leadership needs to lead;.i.e. there should be some kind of system in place to encourge victims to speak out, to aid those who are victims and give them help and a system or method to deal with the abusers so that they cannot continue to perputuate their wrong doings. To come out with such a psak din about this is the admittence that they are in a great whirlpool of fustrations because the problem exits and they have no mechanizm to deal with the issue. What the letter states to me is that we are ineffective in our leadership of our community and if there is socological issue we are unable to deal with it and pass it on/ Granted there are times when the issue cannot be dealt with by the Rabbonim, but this letter states that we are not home to help you even though the actions are complete violations of the TORAH.
Is it true?
Is it true that an agenda outweighs a true Chasidishe purpose to protect Chassidishe ethics, spirituality, etc.? I was thinking of joining the fold, but I first need to know if I would be joining a community of real Yiddishkeit or agendasized misrepresenters. Maybe there are both, but I would hope that at least the leaders have more inner connection to the real part.
political or not yasher koach
this is all a ploy to embarrass rabbi osdaba for not signing a document that was never presented to him
i was told that rabbi osdaba wanted them to also bring information on ephriam pic…..and they said they would only discuss keller
by the way in australia/ in los angeles / miami/ they have covered up for some molesters for years
but i will say this either way this needed to be addressed and rabbi shwie/braun at least are making an effort
Professional Voice
The psak seems unclear. Why don’t they write out clearly that it is child sexual abuse. When something like this happens everyone starts crying victim. The abuse that is not dealt with is the silent destructive abuse which goes on in households within the community where children are being physically and emotionally abused by their parents. our community has long been blind to so many children who are emotionally and mentally in poverty. Let every parent look at his or her own household and ask himself if he is treating his OWN child the way a child of God should be treated, or is he just continuing a legacy of abuse in his own family line. The legacy of abuse runs deep within the Jewish community. Exposing child molesters is not the only answer. We must educate our children about healthy boundaries, and healthy trust.
to #56
Your duty by law and Torah is to report abuse. Let the authorities who have training then decide the factors that influenced the perpetrator if they at all consider it necessary.
to #56
In CH, there are sexual predators currently attacking children who have been previously reported to the authorities and acquitted. Many “false” rumors are in fact true, but were not legally provable or else the accused had the right connections to get himself off the hook. As is known, they are still destroying lives today. If you know a few falsely accused people, chances are you know a few predators that escaped the law… False accusations are rare. Remember, people will do anything to protect their family and reputation, and a lot of the perps come from prominent CH/Chabad families. Always expect, and prepare for, a surprise.
to #59 you wish it was politics
It’s not politics, it’s life and death.
If it were just politics, CH would be a lot safer for a child or teen.
If this or that Rabbi was not shown the document, or whatever other pathetic issue is at stake, is that a reason why children should be murdered spiritually, mentally and emotionally, and tortured physically, by fellow Lubavitchers in the Rebbe’s shechunah?
Wake up and smell the blood of innocent children being shed mercilessly by Pharaohs with black hats, beards and friendly speech. It’s a holocaust, if you only knew… If you don’t know, you are one of the lucky ones. But your children are in danger.
Yid
1. There really are two very different problems here, first the case of child molestation and/or abuse, second the subtle cases of family conflict that simmer beneath 90% of the population.
These two cannot be mixed. Not in court and not in Halacha. The rabbi’s are referring to those horrible situations of strangers doing bad things to children. They are not talking about the problems teachers face in chinuch environments. Nor are they talking about children who claim their parents hit them.
Halach deals with each of the above situations very differently, and it is imperative to understand these differences.
Can you compare
1) A stranger molesting a child in the Mikvah
2) A Melamed who verbally lashes out on a child
3) A parent who slaps their child for whatever reason
The three above situations are all confusingly lumped together into the same headline of “child abuse”
Instead, it is important to see exactly what Halacha teaches about each of the above situations. From a Halacha Point of view:
A Teacher who hits a child: Is the child allowed to inform him to the police? I didn’t ask for your opinion; I asked for *Halacha’s* opinion. Moreover: what does Shulchan Aruch teach in regard to disciplining children? Does Shulchan Aruch forbid the use of a stick?
What about a parent who hits or yells at a child? I’m not asking what PETA’s opinion is; I’m asking what the Shulchan Aruch’s opinion is.
If anybody knows, please tell us.
Its worth repeating what someone wrote earlier: “this is dangerous territory for inexperienced people to deal with”
Yid
23 made a very true point.
“The Mashpia concept allows adults to develop a very intimate (and at times – inappropriate) relationship with teenagers and children.”
Dangerous and Irresponsible
This “psak”, in its reference to the mishnah in sanhedrin daf ayin gimel is dangeros and irresponsible. The “rabbonim” did not spend even two minutes thinking what kind of case the mishna is talking about, and their leap from the very specific case in the mishna to all “abusers” has no basis. If someone relies on this so called “psak” to masser someone, or even worse to hurt someone chas vesholem, Shvei and Braun will be responsible. Have they even considered that? how will they answer the bezdin shel mayloh, when the neshomos of the massered “abusers” call them to a din torah? The torah says you need “vedorashto vechokarto veshoalto heiteiv”, and here they lable all “abusers” as rodfim without even asking what these people really did, and how it compares to what the mishna mentions? how do they do that?
To 41
What are you talking about how are you going to say that there are molesters at highranks of CHABAD and not say who they are, you just tainted everybody, you are worst then the molesters.
Sign here! Sign of the Times
Just because the contents of the letter is legitimate, why should/would Rav Osboba sign his name with a couple of clowns? If Charlie Buttons and Lipa Schmeltzer write a letter that every jew must keep shabbos, does the Rav need to sign it?!
AZ
Any parent who needs to needs to even ask a shailah is nuts. In my opinion, the only reason there could be to call 911 on anyone who touched my kid would be to call an ambulance after I got “Pinchas” on him. No questions or hesitation!!!!!
A Mother
Number 23 brought up some very real concerns that parents must be vigalent about. If your soon is getting close to a rabbi or older Bochur in yeshiva or camp, most likely this is a good thing that should be encouraged but you must also take precautions, do some research, find out if there have been any reumers that this guy is a “bit odd” or “a little off” speak to you son and make sure that he understands what is phisicly appropriate.
Don’t be paranoid but be aware.
to #72
no, when 41 says that there are molesters in the highranks of chabad, 41 is not worse than this, that, or the other. Rather, 41 is nothing less than exactly correct! Why are you upset at the truth? Something to feel guilty about perhaps? Hmmmm.
finally some action
there are lots of high profile molesters in chabad
if you start with teachers and roshei yeshivas lets just by initials you would be overwhelmed
in fact ohelei torah removed a rosh yeshiva who now givs classes online for such behavior and yet as the rebbe said ain potze peh
finally someone is potze peh and all you can do is criticize
id rather have a full apolgy posted in 770 then have one more kid molested by E> PIC or any other teacher
to 71
they are not dangerous or whatever.
they are simply following basic New York law,
and basic Torah law.
Ignoring the bloodshed going on in CH is dangerous and irresponsible. Sorry if that means you, your parents, or siblings might end up in jail for destroying a child, but then again, what will these perps and those that cover for them like yourself going to answer to these murdered children in the beis din shel maaloh…?
Respectfuly disagree
“Evidence of abuse” = Guilty? WTF? Evidence can include all kinds of hearsay and loshon hara. This pisack is crazy. A rov like Bogomilsky would never say moiser unless a shaila was asked – unless its a real pecuach nefesh that can’t wait.
To # 71
Your comment defending pedophiles is quite frightening and irresponsible. It’s your mindset of rationalizing abusers that leads to the countless years of suffering and lack of accountability in our community. I applaud Schwei and Braun for standing up for the defenseless. Now lets start turning in the pedophiles….
to # 71
If you re-read the letter you will see it says next to child abuse, (CSA) which means child sexual abuse, so yes, any sort of sexual abuse put on a child, im sure the Rabbonim are willing to be responsible for the abuser to be told on. Because any level of sexual abuse, is still sexual abuse and is inappropriate and causes immense damage to the victim and the victims family, no matter how little or far the abuser has taken the victim.
Although being as you sound extremely ignorant in this field, you should probably rethink your opinion before ever restating it again.
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, IT’S A CHUTZPA OF ANY SITE SOME-HOW CONNECTED TO LUBAVITCH OR CROWN-HEIGHTS, SHOULD EVEN THINK OF PULISHING ANYTHING FROM THE 2 RABONIM SPECIALY IF IT’S WITHOUT THE ONLY 100% LEGITIMATE RAV???!!!!
ayl
DONT MESS WITH CHARLIE
HE SHOULD ME GEZUNT AND SHTARK!
Mushka
If you are a girl and thinking about getting married but you’re afraid of it because you were abused when you were a child then please do yourself a favor and call Mrs. Schaefer. She helped me to find a therapist who is working with me now to take away my fear of marriage. Shea Hecht is not a psychologist and he doesn’t know therapy and doesn’t also tell you to go to a real psychologist.
Hachotech
nce an abuser, always an abuser.
A Rodef? Perhaps. This psak says it is. However there is no source quoted for this psak, because there is no basis in halachah to call such a person a Rodef.
Emotions do not decide halachah. And 2 rabbonim who have been acclaimed for their halachah “brilliance”, but notably not for their pikchus, are paskenen a din on the basis of shikul hadaas. Hmmm…
Nevertheless the solution is right there, miticho, but no-one sees it. It is permissible to kill a Rodef ONLY if it cannot be done by, say, shooting the hand holding the gun, or the leg carrying the murderer. SO with respect to the reader, there is a solution to the dilemma of “once a molester….”. Get rid of echad me’evarav.
Now, a psak like that would impress me.
To # 73
Charlie Buttons should be well. If Charlie signs anything, it would carry more weight than this o guy signing it. He is not part of it and thats the way it is.
Let-s keep it going
Let’s keep it going. We are getting somewhere, even if it seems to some like we’re getting nowhere. I say this, because I think when evil is out in the open, it’s better than throwing it under the rug and pretending it doesn’t exist. We don’t agree to participate in enabling more hidden abuse. So let’s come together and “make this happen”. We don’t want to enable people in our own community to potentially destroy others’ lives, just because they happen to be adults IN the community. I for one have taken steps to further the cause, and it seems to me that the rabbis who put out the letter have also taken a step. I don’t care if there is or is not a dysfunction in the Beis Din. What propelled the circumstance of its being issued is the FACT that there is a big ugly problem. It does not represent the high ideals of our community when we avoid the problem. Moshiach NOW, let’s do something NOW!
Rodef or Innocent: That is the question
There is no denying that this topic is of critical importance to all of us. I absolutely do not give a yasher koach to the so called authors of this document, b/c it is a purely hypocritical anti-Rav Osdoba ploy, and therfore I repudiate it– as should we all.
Yes, suspected perps of child abuse should be confronted. They should then be examined by a Psychiatrist (there are professionls who deal with child abusers). If they are indeed found to be abusers, the psychiatric professional has the affiliations and means to act in accordance with a Beis Din to do what is appropriate, and just.
Do you think that every “accused” perp should be mossered on?
Do you think that perhaps this could lead to total innocents, like you– for example, to be arrested?
Think about this. In the unfortunate “political” climate that CH finds itself in… where mossering is a favorite threat of certain– well known– members of our community…. how well will this “rodef” title play into their hands.
By the way, I am not soft on child abusers– just hard on phonies who may wrecklessly put true “innocents” away in the name of “child abuser”.
Last thought. Abuse of children is the most heiness, sickest form of behavior. It is spiritual murder. Being mossered on for this if one is innocent is frought with dangers for the innocent victem & his/her family.
One is innocent before being proven guilty: innocent before being designated “rodef”. Enough said.
The
To Yid #69
I think the rabbis are NOT only referring to strangers, sadly, because there have been accusations of KNOWN adults perpetrating our children. Also, I do not think cases of family conflict was ever the topic. Yes, there are kinds of child abuse, but this is about child molestation, is it not? I’m not sure what that comment was trying to communicate, but I am sure that the topic is clearly delineated and specifically expressed in the letter. If someone has a problem with the reference to “accusations of KNOWN adults”, I hope they would research incidents reported wherein accusations of known adults were shown to be accurate. The known molesters were tried and found guilty in public court. For anyone in the Chabad community to claim that it never should have been a public trial case, I ask whether they think the molester would have been held accountable otherwise. I respect the rabbis that put forth the letter. At least they did SOMETHING. Thank you.
A Melumad
Your a menuval a meushav, a menumutz. I hope hashem is menaketz you
NYPD Child Abuse Unit
If you have information regarding child molestation please go directly to the NYPD CSA Unit @ (718)330-5600.
If you have a plausible account of child abuse they will ask you to come down immediately (in Brooklyn) and after speaking to you if they believe you and its possible to arrest, they will do it on the spot.
Please save our community and our children.
We Will Stop Them
the most important point is this. Child Abuse is rampant in frum comunitys because of many reason. the most important one being, that every beis din has protected them by not pushing for victims to go to the police and that the predators should go into rehab programs.
with a psak like this, its the child abusers who are having nightmares. retiring on rikers island is closer then they ever thought possible.
Psak
BH we have 2 brave rabbonim who came forward and put their names out there to stop this.
the 3rd rav can sign on the same psak or come out with his own. either way he should take a stand against these terrible acts on our children.
they are the victims.
help is by staying protected!
just another reason to add why agree abut these Rabbi’s statement and predicament.
you should Call 911 immediately so that you know, that the ongoing suspected perpetrator, will be subpoenad in for questionings…if “takah azoy” he has nothing to hide then all will be simple. I feel sorry for his name ( but we are talkIng simple act… ON GOING SEXUAL ABUSE!!!!!! Thank God the american law has set aside a good legal system.. every one knows the right legal aid can make miracles. but if suspects think that this is outgoing and dangerous, something that should be dumped in the trash then so be it.. but dont let these fuckers get to your head.. they are sick!!! you will get the right support when u dont have to watch your backs…
yes rumors, and allegations are bad. but if you know facts. and you know this is is eventful; you must protect and as your fellow people from tretuor.
To #23
Are you kidding about the Mashpia thing? The Mashpia is way more likely statistically to be the “go to” person that the kid confides his frightening secret to, and who ultimately saves the child’s life, than to be the molester!
Dangerous and Irresponsible
#81, that’s the point. The so-called “psak” covers any kind of “abuse”, but there’s no bases for that in halocho. In the vast majority of cases the person is NOT a “rodef”, and it’s STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to maaser them. These “rabbonim” who paskened that its allowd are dangerous and irresponsible. Hashem will never forgive them or anyone who acts on this “psak” without carefully checking what the person is supposed to have done, and whether that matches what the torah compares to murder. Sometimes it does but usually it doesnt.
such a sad world!!!! iron bars !!!!!
http://www.psychologytoday….
u can b prosecuted for not reporting
To all the idiots suggesting using rabbis and psychologists to determine whether or not to report potential abuse to the authorities, please note that New York law demands that you go to the authorities immediately even for suspected abuse, and then they will employ trained professionals to determine if the abuse is real or not. Failing to do that is against the law and is considered a crime by the state.
to #88
Innocent people will not be put away for no reason, because the authorities require evidence. It is not easy to get someone put away for this sick crime, as evidenced by the many free perps in CH who emerged unscathed from their brush with the authorities.
Rabbi Osdaba-s Boycott is hurting himsel
I’m sorry for moving of topic, but this has to be said.
this is such a important issue to our community, and if Rabbi Osdoba wont voice his opinion because he is boycotting the other Rabbonim, then he is effectively useless and irrelevant, it makes to difference whether he is right or wrong.
if for every important issue the Rabbonim have to deal with he will run away and boycott it, saying “i disagree with him..” that leaves him dealing with nothing of use to our community, again I’m not saying he is wrong, just stating the fact that by continuing this boycott he is rendering himself useless and irrelevant.
its better to have a small say (1 out of 3) then boycott and have no say at all.
i ask the Rov’s forgiveness, but i feel this had to be said.
Lipa, Lipa, yoh, Charlie, Charlie nyne
Charlie Buttons and Lipa Schmeltzer
Please do not mention Charlie, who is just a nudnik, with Lipa, who is mesameach Yidden and who helps people that have dropped out of communities, perhaps even due to abuse, stay close to Avinu Shebashamayim.
If Lipa signed a paper, I’d pay more attention to it than I would if some rabbonim signed it.
Mendy
We need to work on modesty in Crown Heights.. This is the core of all problems.
LOL
Wow, how brave wow, there my heroes.
What a joke!
Question!
What about spreading the word to others is that considered loshon hara….. I think people should know!
TO # 99
“Innocent people will not be put away for no reason”
Since when do we applaud the integrity of the criminal justice system when it comes to Jews??????????????
T0 #101
You must not be from C.H. I never saw lipa & I’ve lived here for over 20 years. People who are normal all enjoy Charlie & he brings a LOT of pleasure to the people. Just because you are a miserable
grouch, don’t blame it on Charlie, may HaShem bless him with gezunt
& many long happy years.
Legal Daycare Center
We are obligated and required by law to report any suspicion of child abuse of any kind.
ignoring irrelevancy
To 100
How can one become irrelevant by ignoring irrelevancy?
Lashon Hara?
“What about spreading the word to others is that considered loshon hara”
Are you insane??? If you spread the word that moshe pipik is a murderer and rapist, is that “loshon hara” or HATZALAT NEFASHOT??? If you spread the word that zundel is a ganev and is stealing large sums of money from members of the community, is that “lashon hara”?
Have you ever met victims of this despicable crime??? These sicos DESTROY lives on a daily basis. They destroy the lives – literally – of their victims and highly complicate the lives of entire families. THEY MUST BE STOPED AT ALL COSTS.
ANY form of CSA התעללות מינית- – must be confirmed then reported immediately.
R U serious?
Attn: commenter #71 & 96 “Dangerous and Irresponsible”
It seems pretty obvious that either you are a molester yourself or you are protecting one in your family. Shame on you! Have you ever met/spoken to an abused victim? Did you see the devastating effects it has on them?
This is Spiritual murder! Emotional murder!
what is a rodef ?
Many commenter clearly don’t understand what the meaning of a “Rodef” is.
The letter states clearly, that where there is credible evidence of CSA on has the OBLIGATINO to report it.
The letter ADDS (in addition to being required to report the perpetrator of התעללות מינית to the authorities), if you catch him in the act – WHILE he is molesting someone – he has the din of a “rodef” and you may stop him by causing him bodily harm (if there is no other way to stop him). This detail only applies at the actual time of the crime.
After the fact, you cannot hurt him, but rather you must stop him from committing the crime again.
to mendy 102
yeah right # 102 the modesty is the problem nothing else. most of the molesters are wearing a jacket a hat sirtug and love going to the mikvah. so definetly modesty thats it u definetly hit on the solution and the problem at hand. right on.
Lipa, Lipa, yoh, Charlie, Charlie nyne
Lipa is not from Crown Heights although he performed at the parade and also came to sing for Mrs Scheiner’s presentations for special children.
Crown Heights is not the only place where real ohavei Yisroel bring people back to Yiddishkeit after they’ve had bad experiences. In fact some people leave Yiddishkeit or switch away from Chabad after bad experiences in increasingly dysfunctional Crown Heights.
Many normal people are bothered by Charlie or see him as a harmless pest, but still a pest. He is one of the more noticeable nuts in the deluxe assorted fruitcake called 770.
Those boycotting Rav Osdoba!
These two “Rabbonim” probably didnt even discuss it with Rabbi Osdoba. Rabbi shwei signed many things without even discussing it with rav osdoba, this may be one of them. Rabbi O. is the longest member of the B”D. He’s the Av Beis Din, but Braun and shwei show no respect. You remember that when brauns smichah was questioned, the conditions on which he allowed rav osdoba to view his smichah? how he did and is ignoring rabbi osdoba? get it through your thick heads, rabbi braun is a young farshtunkene mechutzaf!
at # 100
“i ask the Rov’s forgiveness”
wow! you really care about the rov to ask his forgiveness. im impressed! and i’m even more impressed at your kovod hatorah(sorry for the “snaggy” loshon)the way you give rabbi osdoba advice but if he doesnt follow YOUR ‘useless and irelevant’ advice then he’s useless and irelevant.
Not always is a Rov there to give into everything the crowd wants. Yes, Believe me, I’m no child molester. I’m disgusted by hearing about such things, but maybe just maybe, the molester isnt considered a Rodef and Rabbi Osdoba knows a bit more than these young “kluge” fellows that you CANNOT Maser on a child molester.
You know how complicating it can get, that one fam,ily will want to get another in trouble so they can accuse them so simply of child molesting, and it will be okay (according to Halachah) to masser them to court. I have a feeling that Massering on people has become a very popular trend in Crown Heights. Too popular. Heres a psak that makes it more popular.
My dear fellow, child molesting is a very hurtfull abuse. But this is a very risky psak too. Maybe they could have consulted with their superior, Rabbi Osdoba and not psak without his opinion without giving second thoughts.
As of your chutzpa towards Rav Osdoba in the Guess-Who game, i would have thought you as Elie Poltorak. Is that your name by any chance?
GLAD THIS NOTE WENT OUT
RABBIS CAN NOT DEAL WITH MOLESTERS – THIS IS A JOB OF THE POLICE AND THERAPISTS – GLAD THE RABBIS REALIZED THEIR PLACE AND DID THEIR PART BY TALKING ABT JEWISH LAW AND MAKING IT KNOWN THAT PPL CAN TELL THE PROPER AUTHORITIES WHEN ABUSE IS HAPPENING. ABOUT TIME! GLAD THIS LETTER WENT OUT! NO ONE SHOULD HIDE BEHIND THE TORAH LAW AS AN EXCUSE NOT TO REPORT ABUSE.
STOP CSA; STOP EXPLOITATIOIN OF CSA TOO
The horrendous issue of CSA must be dealt with even if the two Rabbonim who have issued this letter are ONLY exploiting CSA for their own opportunistic motivations. CSA is deplorable; exploiting it is deplorable. Unfortunately, in situations like these everyone suffers, b/c there is no sincerity– just showmanship.
APOLOGY DUE TO RABBI OSDOBA
Rabbi Osdoba is owed an apology in writing by the “heroic” Rabbonim who intentionally by-passed him when submitting this “psak”. Why did they have to make it appear as if they are the heroes, and Rav Osdoba doesn’t care? Why? You know why! We all know why.
To Mendy
What is your definition of modesty?
To #84
So glad, and so proud of you for having the intelligence and understanding to seek the right kind of follow-up. Thank G-d. May you have the blessings you wish for.
So what?
So what? Who cares that 2 rabbis signed something and another didn’t? WE HAVE TO HAVE A SYSTEM THAT SAVES OUR CHILDREN! WE LOVE THEM! WE TREASURE THEM1! PLEASE! STOP THE MADNESS, AND GET A GRIP! WEEEEEEE MUUUUUST SAAAAAAAVE OUUUUUUUR PREEEECIOUS CHILLLLDREN! Now keep it moving! Moshiach NOW!
To #1
Rabbis are not usually educated or equipped to handle child molesters. I think it is very smart of them to be aware of this, although I think there is a point at which they may become involved. There is nothing wrong with going outside of the community, unless there is EXPERT affiliation IN the community. You don’t avoid going to a non-Jewish doctor, if that doctor has the best -known information and skill to treat a Jewish patient. (Or at least I hope that you would not avoid that person.) With both components coming together, maybe this will be FINALLY addressed. And when it reaches a point of righteousness, then we will be able to be closer to Moshiach. I’m sure there are perpetrators who are scared right now. Do not be afraid of their fear. Do not be intimidated by them. Always think of the children, as you know you should.
rebes sicho 5746
why is there no refrence to the rebes sicho purim 5746
MS
To # 96
You are a damn fool & an AM HOARETZ also. You are totally ignorant in halocho & have no right to write stupidity in the name of halocho!
I have the solution!
Close the schools; everybody there is a perpetrator!
Shut the Mikvas; they’re infested with sicko’s!
Get rid of the Mashpia system; they get to close to the students!
Abolish the camps; the kids spend too much time with their counselors who are single!
Whoa, whoa, based on some of the comments here you would think that CH is just overrun with perps and sicko’s….
Guys, get a life, if you know of a problem, do what you have to, go to the police, the Rabbis said so, but stop your crazy diatribes and panic discussions, thank G-d we have a very healthy and beautiful community full of great straight normal people.
What if
What if it was a 13 year old boy who sexually abused an 11 year old?
Concerned Parent
may we have the strength to report child abuse if god forbid it happens in our own family.
Frumedout
To 98 I don’t care what NYS laws are. I care only for what Shulchan Aruch’s law’s are.
Molester
112, if you like defending pritzus why don’t you turn on your web cam and post the link
PETA activist
107, I may be paranoid, but I swear it was you I saw on Kingston avenue with a kid crying towing behind you outside the pizza shop. He must have been hungry but since you did not take him in to the pizza shop to feed the kid you must be starving the kid, oh my, and then I also saw a big bruise on his right knee, I’d better report you!
Menuvul
98, “and then they will employ trained professionals to determine if the abuse is real or not”
Are you insane? those Administration for Children’s Services workers are picked right off the street to fill a position that nobody else would would want. They were so desperate for “professionalism” they began advertising back then on he subways “Are you wise enough?” “are you Tough Enough” to go knock on doors and arrest the first parent you see of any kid who might have triped on his own teddy bear and bruised his knee. I don’t consider these workers professional. Let them work for TSA and do pediatric pat downs
Rebecca
Any person can anonymously pick up the phone, and the perp will be investigated. If it is 100% bumkis, then nothing comes of it. Any parent who suspects this and waits for the OK of a Rabbi is just nuts.
nightmare for families of the abusers
While it is our responsibility to report and stop any form of abuse in our community, in the process of stopping these devastating crimes and bringing the perpetrators to justice we need to be sensitive and have rachmanus on the family of the abusers who too have become victims by association. These families are frum, respectable yidden in our community like you and I. They can not and should not be held responsible for the crimes of their sick relatives- Rachmana letzan! This is definitely hell on earth for them as they are humiliated and shattered from this. Let us be gentle to the families and not make this nightmare any worse for them.
Bekkah
Wow its about time. Too bad it wasn’t around or spoken of when a lot of my friends were having to deal with their so called Rabbi’s who had been molesting them and nothing was ever done about it back then.
Response to 115 and others
you missed my point all together! it just went over your head!
i am not telling rabbi Osdabo how to Pasken, neither was i backing this Psak.
i was simply stating that if the community doesn’t hear from the Rov, he will become irrelevant! let him state his opinion, if he disagrees then lets hear it! but a boycott wont help anyone!
if you disagree with this simple premise then, you don’t know what a Rov is!
and know i am not eli poltrac, and don’t really have an opinion in the Rabbonim Machlokes, and i certainly have no issue with Rabbi Osdabo!
$1000
I am willing to bet $1000 that this letter was delivered to Rabbi Osdobo (prior to it’s publication) for his signature!
healing
Why all this focus on Rabbi O??? this letter is dealing with a VERY serious issue. The opinion of a beit din goes via majority. Here they have 2 out of 3.
I’m 100% sure that Rabbi O. Shlit”a agrees 1000% with every word of this letter! It will take some time until he is comfortable putting his name on the same piece of paper as Rabbi S. or Rabbi B.
135
sorry, but its chutzpahdik to call a rov useless and irrelevant whatever the circomstance.
DISRESPECT FOR THE REBBE, HIMSELF
To # 135: You obviously have no respect for the holy judgement of our Beloved Rebbe, MH”M– who totally put his own work aside to support and stand by Rov Marlow, Rov Osdoba, and Rov Heller.
To # 136: In addition to being of the ilk of # 135, you have the added distinction of being a Baal Machlokis– who is willing to bet $1000 w/o out any evidence, but only hatred.
You should not be proud of yourselves. Your comments reveal who you really are.
RESPECT
You write: “our Beloved Rebbe, MH”M– who totally put his own work aside to support and stand by Rov Marlow, Rov Osdoba, and Rov Heller.”
I absolutely agree with you. The Rebbe put everything aside to support and uphold the Beis Din that was elected by the community in democratic elections. Read the Sicha.
In case you forgot, Rabbi’s S. and B. were also duly elected by the community in democratic elections. Hence, the support that the rebbe gave the Beis Din applies to ALL members of the Beis Din equally!
Doctor
To #96. What you are sugesting is called cover up. What it leads to is what happened in Borrogh Park the other day.
to 140
Rabbi S. and B. both have questions on their election.
A. By Rabbi Shwei – he was the only candidate and everyone was rushing to have a 2nd rov so that rabbi osdoba wouldnt have to handle a community alone. on the election card, it said either option1 – rabbi shwei or option two – no rov. Of course the growing community, eager for a 2nd rov voted for rabbi shwei, but there was no choice besides for him.
Rabbi braun has such a questional election that im surprised you included him.
A. Hes under 40, B. The smichah issue.C. he came past the deadline. D. There was no chance for reelections after everyone found out about these things(Were not voting class president, this is talking about a Rav for CH. Theres nothing wrong with taking the process slowly.)
second hand info
There was an abuser that was shot to death in the community a few years back. My neighbor had lived in the same building and talked about him at a shiur. I never understood why the community/police put out a reward for information about apprehending the killer. Probably some victim putting a stop to ugly behavior.
to 139 and others!
again you respond as if i was attacking the Rov!
READ: I AM NOT CHALLENGING RABBI OSDABOS AUTHORITY AS ROV IN CROWN HEIGHTS! HE IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE ROV!
with that said, a Rov MUST lead! a Rov must tell the community how to act, and not sit on the side lines!
maybe the word ‘irrelevant’ is too strong, and maybe it was improper of me to use it. if so i beg the Rov’s forgiveness.
but my point is the same WE MUST HEAR FROM THE ROV!
To #96
I think you sound defensive , in denial, and uninformed. Perhaps you can pray with your heart and check your real motive. I’m not kidding. I suggest it.
Hey!! I know you!! You Child Abuser!!!!
145, There is no underlying motive. He maybe overdoing it but he does have a point. Most poeple do not have the nessecary training or experience to determine another persons mental health status. By giving the public masses the encoragement to begin being warry of every and anybody who you may suspect that maybe he has issues or is depressed or looked at you a certain way what we end up with is a mass hysteria of civilization in chaos. There will be witch hunts. Neighbors will be watching each other as if there are dark secrets lying in Yossel’s backyard. Woman will accuse each other of child abuse while shopping on kingston avenue. Democracy!! Murderer! you bipolar!! what, excuse me, *you* ADHD maniac who doesnt feed your kids have the chutzpa to accuse me for molesting my children!!! there will be violence on the street, bubbies will become everybodies mashpia and give shiurim on child abuse, Chaim Yankels personal sholom bayis will be the talk of Rebbitzen Clinton’s block shiur, finnaly!! no rabbonim to sweep Yossle Fatso’s secrets under the rug!!!!!! Administration of Children Services will have a bus shuttle everday from crown heights to 71st preceingt, Wow, I could go on but I’d better stop here.
Thank God we have a Shulchan Aruch to guide us. Thank God we were taught by the rebbe to consult personal Mashpeim (authentic ones) to guide our everyday decisions. Thank God our world is not a free for all liberal safari (so far).
Just because rabbonim/community leaders failed to deal with some very serious issues, placing the task onto the democratic public would ignite a disaster of humanity. It is YOU very liberals who preach against the witch hunts of the 50 (KGB hysteria in the US) and the kill bin laden demonstrations after 9/11. By tasking the public with labeling their neighbors with ADD, Child abuse, Necrophilia and Dismembermentophilia people will be hitting each other over the head as if they were building the tower of bavel
If neither the public nor our community leaders are capable with this task, what then? The answer is you GET the community leaders to do their job. Leave it up to Shomrim/shmira to do the dirty work. The would do a better job than anyone had other community leaders not get in their way. They know who the real offenders are, you don’t. No matter how mutch loshen hora you hear when you go to shul.
It is imperative that masering on each other be tasked to a specially dedicated group of individuals who will have more knowledge than you and me on who’s who in the sea of black hats in 770.
O, dear....
To # 146- What in the world possessed you to respond to #145 that way? You say he accused you of BEING a molester? What??? I think you wrote a lot of words, that you were on fire for some reason, and you got off the subject. I think you should talk to someone about your own problems, because it looks like you need to process your thoughts and feelings. And, I saw no accusations of child abuse in your direction. That’s an interesting interpretation, but not too reasonable. Are you by any chance also #96? If you are, I agree with #145. I would add that your rant sounds like it comes from an unhealthy place. Please get some help for your own sake. You do not have to feel so out-of-control, and there are professional who can work with you,
With all due respect
To #146, Unfortunately you do not write as one who understands the truth or the ramifications of childhood sexual molestation. I would recommend that you look into the subject with an opened mind. I also recommend that you read about the experiences of people who have been directly or indirectly affects by this. You are off the mark with your comment. By the way, I didn’t think #145 accused you of being a molester. In addition, you need to know that rabbonim are not trained to handle this situation, so I don’t think that is a viable suggestion. Just like one goes to a dentist to deal with physical oral problems, a person with a psychological issue should go to a doctor with that specialty. Neither go to a rabbi.Those are just the simple facts.
So troubling
To #90, Please seek counseling. I hope you then feel better, not bitter. Actually, you sound more than bitter, you sound ill. Otherwise why would you respond to another human being in the way that you did? What would the Rebbe think about your mean rant? Why do YOU think you reacted that way? Are you a Chasid? Are you a Jew? What is going on with you?
Yidishkeit?
To #90- Are you really wishing so much misfortune and tragedy for another Jew? What do you do when someone actually does do harm to you? You are very angry, aren’t you? It’s hard for me to understand the attitude you portray, but I shutter when I read your message of hate. Is this true Yidishkeit? I think not. Maybe YOU should think, too.