Prominent Community Figures Demand Transparency
Three prominent educators in the Crown Heights community wrote an elaborate letter to the Beis Din demanding transparency in all issues relating to the psak.
Rabbis Yoel Kahan, Berel Levin, and Avrohom Gerlitzky asked in their letter to the Beis Din that since many of the issues in the recent Psak were in fact only justifying previous decisions already made, the only solution would be that this decision be submitted to a neutral Rabinic body, and they should look into the matter, and give an impartial ruling that will leave no doubt in its transparency to the entire community.
The following is a free translation from Hebrew of the original letter [which is posted below]:
To the esteemed Rabbis, judging the arbitration proceedings regarding the Crown Heights Jewish Community, Rabbis; Avraham Boruch Rosenberg, Moishe Havlin, Yosef hecht, Boruch Boaz Yurkowitz, Binyamin Kuperman.
Greetings:
We are responding to a recently publicized letter that was signed by Rabbi Rosenberg “in the name of the Beth Din”, without identifying the supporting members of the “Beth Din”, we are therefore addressing this letter to each and every member of this Beth Din.
We must preface and emphasize, that one shouldn’t imply from this letter that we accept your authority to judge in these matters, [as we already wrote you in the past the reasons why we feel that many of the issues that you address in your ruling are completely out of the range of the deliberations that took place in front of your court] – nevertheless, since your letter was publicized, we feel obligated as it is our duty to alert you to some of the issues in your letter that we feel are in error, and are full of contradictions, etc., as we will explain forthwith.
Before we address the core issue of your letter, we find your attitude in this letter very strange. You have taken an approach which doesn’t address the subject matter in a transparent way which will be understood by the community and lay to rest all the doubts, but rather you chose an approach of “revealing one bit and concealing two bits”. This approach repeats itself time and again as you broach the issues that need to be addressed, and instead of clarifying you write: “this matter doesn’t need to be addressed”, or you write, that: “for various reasons we chose not to relate to this matter”, and in some instances you mention certain issues and documents, and you write that you won’t publicize these items or documents, “because Rabbi Yosef Yeshaya Braun Shlita prefers that they not be publicized”!
It would seem that an issue that affects a very large and very important community, on a matter that the Rabbis have been deliberating for four months – would result in some semblance of serious consideration for the needs of the community, so that your ruling should be listened to by the public, and not to take an attitude of withholding very basic and important information from the community.
And now to the issues at hand.
A. In your letter you address many complaints and challenges to the election of Rabbi Braun – but you conveniently ignore one basic argument that was presented to you, and this is the issue of the lack of “Shimush” to the Rabbinate of Rabbi Braun. As we wrote you in our previous letter, there is “it is clear from what we heard from the community of Sydney, that this candidate had no Shimush and no experience in any field of Rabbonus in the Sydney community (i.e. judging on Dinei Torah’s, Kashrus, Mikve, Gittin & Kidushin, etc.), and that he served only as a spiritual leader (a mashpia, teacher, lecturer and orator, etc.). So how can one suggest that we take such a person, from such a small community, one who has no experience in the Rabbinate, and hire him as a Rav anywhere, let alone to appoint as a Rav in such an important community as ours?!”
And it must be emphasized, that the Rebbe’s opinion is clear, that the issue of “Shimush” for the Rabbinate is most fundamental in the qualifications for a candidate to have, if he wants to serve as a Rav of a Jewish community, as the Rebbe clearly said on Shabbos Mishpatim 5747 (in connection with the Rabbinate in Crown Heights!):
“It is so essential to have Shimush Chachamim – as the Gemara states (Sota, 22, a): “even if one has studied, and is well versed (in Torah and Halacha), but he didn’t practice Shimush in front of Talmidei Chachamim, he is an An Haaretz!
“Meaning, “Shimush of Talmidei Chachamim” is not just another advanced level in the Rabbinate, i.e. that there are various levels in the Rabbinate, one who has Smicha just for Issur v’Heter, “Yore Yore”, and then there is one who has an additional Smicha of “Yodin Yodin”, and above him is the one who also has “Shimush of Talmidei Chachamim”, (such is not the case) – rather, if one has no Shimush in front of Talmidei Chachamim he is not a Rav, but he is an Am Haaretz!
And in spite of the Rebbes clearly stated opinion on the necessity of Shimush (as a pre-condition to qualify as a Rav), you chose to completely ignore the challenge on the issue of the lack of Shimush (by Rabbi Braun)[1]!
Perhaps you chose to ignore this issue, because in your mind you included it in the category of challenges that “there is no need to address them”, or perhaps your deafening silence on this matter, is due to the fact that you did indeed investigate and you justifiably came to the same conclusion as we did, that Rabbi Braun has no Shimush for the Rabbinate. If such is the case, how do you withhold such important information from the public, and you go on to approve such a candidate for the Rabbinate, in spite of his lack of such a major requirement set forth by the Rebbe!
B. When commenting on Rav Zinners letter regarding Rabbi Braun, you write: “after the elections a rumor was spread that this Smicha (from Rav Zinner) isn’t legitimate and/or it is a forgery, etc. And the evidence was based on the fact that the letter wasn’t written on Rav Zinners stationary, and that it wasn’t dated, and the language didn’t compare to other Smichas issued by Rav Zinner” [2]. To which Rav Rosnberg responds: “in fact I spoke to Rav Zinner, and I saw several of his letters that he wrote to the elders of Chabad, from which it is evident that he in fact signed this Smicha and it is indeed not a forgery”.
Seemingly, Rav Rosenberg makes a good case, after all Rav Zinner did admit that he signed this Smicha. However, Rav Rosneberg reveals only part of their conversation, while he fails to disclose significant other parts of his discussion with Rav Zinner.
Rav Rosenberg fails to reveal that in his conversations with Rav Zinner, Rav Zinner told him that he remembers signing a recommendation letter that Rabbi Braun himself drafted, but he was very clear about the fact that it’s not clear to him that the publicized letter is actually the one that he signed. As a result, Rav Zinner requested from Rav Rosenberg two times, that he should ask Rabbi Braun to produce the original letter that he actually signed, for positive identification purposes. And still, till this very day, Rav Rosenberg failed to follow-up on this request!
Therefore it is clear that Rav Zinner never admitted to having signed this publicized letter (not in his conversations with Rav Rosenberg, nor in Rav Zinners letters to us), and he didn’t agree that the letter produced isn’t a forgery. All Rav Zinner admitted to, was that he signed a recommendation letter of support for Rabbi Braun, but he never admitted that he signed this publicized letter. Au contraire, since the original letter was never produced, it would seem that one can deduce that there are differences between the original and the publicized copy, which someone is trying to hide.
Which one is it: If Rav Rosenberg asked Rabbi Braun to produce the original document and Braun refused to produce it, then this reinforces the suspicions that there is indeed reason to believe that there is some forgery or fraud being committed here[3]. And if Rav Rosenberg didn’t follow-up on Rav Zinners request, and he failed to ask Rabbi Braun to produce the original document, then this lack of action on Rav Rosenbergs part, reveals Rav Rosenbergs attitude to this entire matter, and it reflects on the level of investigation conducted on this case by Rav Rosenberg.
C. Responding to Rav Zinners claim that he never intended to issue a Smicha to Rav Braun, Rav Rosenberg argues (in article 6), that really it doesn’t matter, but “since the letter of support includes wording of Smicha” and such language is only used “for someone who earned to receive Smicha”, therefore “automatically this letter remains to be a perfect Smicha”.
Although Rav Rosenberg doesn’t explain why this letter remains to be a “perfect Smicha”, he seems to be consistent in his opinion, as he states in footnote 12: “our (Lubavitch) Smichas are not really Smichas, but rather a sort of testimonial that the musmach has the necessary knowledge to get such a certificate”, therefore, when Rav Zinner included in his letter “wording of Smicha” this serves as some sort of testimonial that Rabbi Braun has “the necessary knowledge to receive such a certificate”, therefore this letter “remains to be a perfect Smicha”, since any Smicha is no more than just a testimonial.
Such an interpretation of the letter should suffice only for a very shallow overview. However if you review the content properly, you will realize that this answer doesn’t hold water, for many reasons:
a) The Rebbe clearly states that issuing a Smicha (isn’t just a form of testimony, but that it) is a “passing on of power”, and obviously this power can only be delegated if the Masmich gives it with this intention (see article E), and since Rabbi Braun only asked Rav Zinner for a letter of support and Rav Zinner never had in mind to issue a Smicha, obviously there was no act of “passing on of any power” to Rabbi Braun.
b) Rav Rosenberg himself states (in article 5) that Rav Zinner told him “that the support letter for Rabbi Braun wasn’t written by him, but that he only signed it”, which means that rabbi Braun is the one who wrote the letter and he asked Rav Zinner to sign it. Understandably when one signs a letter that someone else prepared, especially when he is under the impression that this is not a serious letter but only a letter of support (which will have no practical applications), he won’t scrutinize it seriously before he signs it. Therefore you cannot deduce that there was any sort of testimonial here by Rav Zinner on Braun’s knowledge.
Go figure: This letter says “I support him .. to prepare Gittin and Kidushin according to Torah law” [4], there is no doubt that even Rav Rosenberg wont claim that this is some sort of testimonial, and therefore can serve as a Smicha, to organize Gittin and Kiddushin.
D. Rosenberg continues in footnote 14: “another Smicha was submitted to us, and it’s dated one year before the election, and there are strong reasons to conclude that this Smicha on its own should be sufficient. But since this Smicha wasn’t necessary, we preferred not to relate to it for various reasons”. This statement is extremely puzzling:
Being that “there are strong reasons to conclude that this Smicha on its own should be sufficient”, why don’t you take this Smicha seriously? Why not use a clear unchallenged Smicha it as the one which will qualify as a Smicha for Rabbi Braun? Instead you resort to some suspicious questionable document with which you are struggling to kasher it with difficulty, and you try to establish that a letter of support and recommendation, qualifies as a Smicha for Braun, when you have a perfect other Smicha to rely on? Why “did we choose not to relate to this for various reasons?”
The obvious conclusion is that the “various reasons” not to relate to the second Smicha, is because there are some doubts pertaining to this Smicha. So let’s speculate, what could be wrong with this second Smicha? Nobody is claiming that the second Smicha is just a letter of support and not a Smicha, and the date of the Smicha says clearly that it was issued one year before the election, so what may be the problem?
There is only one possible problem with this second document, perhaps there is some forgery or fraud (on the entire document, or that perhaps this Smicha was issued after the election[5] and they changed the date). So the obvious question that begs to be asked is: How can the Dayanim “not relate” to this document to try to establish the accuracy and authenticity of this new Smicha?
Which way is it: If after good research you will conclude that this document is an authentic Smicha, then this would be the most perfect conclusion to this drama, and it would establish an authentic proper Smicha that Braun received before the election! If on the other hand research establishes that there are problems with this second Smicha as well, i.e. that there is some forgery (with the entire document or with the date), then we must conclude that there is a problem here not just with the Smicha, but there is a problem with the trustworthiness of the one who produced this Smicha to the Dayanim of this Beth Din!
If this is true, then it makes no difference if Braun produces new 10 valid Smichas, this man is completely unfit to serve as a Rav, as he is capable of committing forgery and fraud.
E. The Rebbes states his opinion in the Sichos several times, that although the concept of “Semuchin (rite of passage direct from Moshe Rabeinu)” doesn’t exist in our times, nevertheless even nowadays Smichas are connected to the Smichas that were issued “person to person directly up to Moshe Rabeinu”, meaning that there is definitely a special power entrusted to the recipient of the Smicha all the way from Moshe Rabeinu, unlike Rav Rosenbergs stated opinion that Smicha these days is only a testimonial.
So being that the focal point of Rav Rosenberg’s decision is concentrated around the idea that Smicha is only a testimonial[6], and therefore Rav Zinners letter of support can serve as a valid Smicha, it becomes clear that Lubavitcher Chasidim cannot accept such a Psak.
Therefore it is wondersome that Rav Rosenberg writes that “he signs in the name of the (entire) Beth Din”. Since all the other Dayanim are Lubavitcher Chasidim, how could it be that they don’t mind that things written in their name which are in sharp contrast to the Rebbe’s opinion?!
Even if we would assume that the Dayanim have other reasons why they Pasken this way (even if there is no hint of any other reason), and they agreed to the letter only because they support the final Psak, nevertheless, when you write “in the name of the Beth Din” it includes everything written in this letter, including the statement that Smicha is only a testimonial, so if they remain silent, the community will assume that they agree to this statement also. So in other words we are saying that it is so important to approve Rabbi Braun as Rav in Crown Heights, that you can even agree to an idea (which is totally against the Rebbe), and cause a tremendous public Chilul Hashem.
The only way this can be rectified, is by having each one of the Dayanim state clearly and publicly; that in spite of Rav Rosenbergs “signature in the name of the (entire) Beth Din”, nevertheless, this detail wasn’t written on our behalf, and that we totally and unequivocally disagree with its content.
F. In addition to Rav Rosenbergs opinion that Smicha is only a testimonial, it seems that even this version of Smicha doesn’t mean much to him.
In footnote 8, Rav Rosenberg writes: “if it would become absolutely clear that Braun still has no Smicha, it would seem that we would lean to invalidate the results of the election”. In other words, according to Rosenberg there still exists a possibility to appoint a Rav even if he had no Smicha! And although he concludes that it “would seem (that we would nullify the elections)” he still implies that it is not an absolute no, and that there still exists a possibility to approve him. The reason, because Rav Rosenberg doesn’t value Smicha as a necessary and serious matter!
[Incidentally, it is worthy to note another point in Rav Rosenbergs attitude: This Beth Din already established the first condition to qualify a candidate for the Rabbinate, that he must have Smicha. As a result, the candidates were qualified to run by meeting this basic condition, and on this basis the community went out to vote. So how can Rav Rosenberg come now and claim (in article 8) that “this matter is still in the hands of the Dayanim to decide, and that they can still change their mind after the fact, and approve a Rav that has no Smicha?” This approach only highlights Rosenbergs lack of regard for the public and the community].
It is self-evident, that one who completely and emphatically doesn’t believe in a concept, be it what it may, cannot be included, and most definitely not be relied upon, to judge and rule on this concept that he doesn’t believe in.
For example, if a Rav isn’t particular in not using “Chalav Stam”, would anybody suggest to appoint him to supervise and determine the standards of Kashrus of Chalav Yisrael, for those who are particular to drink only Chalav Yisrael, and that he should decide which milk is good to use and which should not be used?!
G. In spite of the fact that all that what we wrote here is simple and abundantly clear, still we are concerned that being that it is difficult for a human being to retract his stated position, especially a “psak din”, no less a psak that was seriously publicized. Therefore there is reason to worry that since in your original psak it was publicized that the candidate for a third Rav must have the approval of one sitting Rav of Crown Heights (Rav Osdoba or Rav Schwei), and the Beth Din will trust these Rabbonim to verify and establish the legitimacy and qualifications of the candidates. It is worrisome that in spite of all of the above, this Beth Din will still lean to rule that Rabbi Braun should serve as the third Rav in compliance with your original psak that it is sufficient that only one Rav of the sitting Rabbonim testifies to his worthiness to serve a s a Rav.
(Obviously this should not be taken as an insult, but this is the nature of humanity, and “Shochad blinds the wise, and derails the words of the righteous”, including those on whom the Torah states that they are Chachomim and Tzadikim).
Therefore we find it necessary to quote the Alter Rebbe (Igros p’ 87): It is well known the saying of our sages that a Talmid Chochom who ruled, (if he said it before the fact then we listen to him) but if he ruled after the fact we don’t listen to him, even if he quotes his teacher we suspect him of lying, how much more so in our case when we are not so much concerned about lying, but rather it’s is a matter that the heart must understand, that your heart should listen and accept our words”. We would also refer you to Shu”t Chasam Sofer Hachadoshos (Cho”m siman 48 p. 91 col. 2) that “a person is poised by nature to uphold his original words, and there is reason to worry that they will circumvent the proper path”.
Therefore, the only solution to this matter can be if you will submit this issue to a committee of neutral Rabbonim, and let them review all the matters pertaining to the qualifications of the candidate (re: Smicha, Shimush, etc. etc.). And after a thorough investigation, they will publicize their conclusions, in a manner that leaves no doubt in its transparency, to the entire community.
Respectfully,
[signatures of Rabbi Yoel Kahan, Rabbi Berel Levin, Rabbi Avorhom Gerlitzky]~~~~~~
Footnotes:
1) This in spite of the fact that on another matter regarding the Rebbes opinion about a Rav leaving one community over another, you write extensively with all kinds of explanations.
2) For the record, in our letter we never claimed that the letter was forged, and the discussion about the standard Smicha certificate by Rav Zinner, vs. that of Braun, served only to prove that Rav Zinner is correct in asserting that this letter was never intended as a Smicha.
3) To suggest that the original was lost and that only a copy was guarded and saved makes absolutely no sense at all.
4 By the way, the fact that Braun included in the letter that he himself prepared, the wording of “organizing Gittin & Kidushin”, should reflect on his integrity.
5 This story that Braun got Smicha one year before the election, doesn’t smell right:
a) We are discussing a person who by all accounts didn’t get Smicha when he finished learning in Yeshiva (unlike most Bochrim, especially those who sit and learn, particularly after the Rebbe’s instructions (in 5736) that every Bochur should get smicha before he gets married),
b) Which resulted in his accepting upon himself a rabbinical position in Sydney, and he actually served in a Rabbinical position for 5-6 years without having any Smicha,
c) And ultimately, Rabbi Braun organized a Smicha program to issue Smicha to other students, while he still had no Smicha himself –
And only after all of the above, when the Bochrim in Sydney finished their studies, and they were tested by Rav Zinner to receive his Smicha, only then did Braun ask Rav Zinner for a letter. This happened in the end of 5767 or beginning of 5768.
And here the obvious question must be asked: Someone who for so many years had no Smicha, and suddenly he decided to get a real Smicha (according to his version that he wants us to believe,) from RavZinner, why in the world would he care to get another Smicha two years after he already got a Smicha from Rav Zinner?!
On the other hand, being that he did go ahead and obtain another Smicha (if he did), this will only reinforce the argument that he himself agreed that the letter from Rav Zinner is not a Smicha.
And although we can’t presume facts based on assumptions, the least we can say is, that this fact requires an in-depth study, and the public is entitled to clear answers in this matter, and not in a devious manner which leaves too many issues unresolved, with an excuse that “for various reasons we preferred not to address them”!
6 In all 10 articles in Rav Rosenbergs letter we found no other stated reason why a letter of recommendation should be considered a Smicha, other than this idea that a Smicha is only a testimonial.
skeptic
But wait! Isn’t Rabbi Rosenberg “impartial”? Check his bank account (& his offshore accounts & those of his kids) to see how & by whom he was paid.
You want transparency? FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!
Chosid
I give up. This schuna really has no hope of sholom any time soon short of melech hamoshiach revealing himself.
Menshe
Why does any of this matter in the least if there are two sides who explicitly state that they will not accept a psak different from their opinion? How much money, time and effort was wasted in drafting these inconsequential piskei dinim and letters? The problem isn’t that there are different opinions. The problem is that nobody accepts any other opinion as legitimate. Nothing at all will change until that changes.
yossele
Here we go again.
antimesira
Very Very Very Nice.
I am glad that there are those who fighting the good fight for peace, justice and Truth/Emes.
This issue should have been taken to another Bais Din the moment there were questions on the result.
How Rabbi Rosenberg was able to ‘appeal’ his own Psak [decision] is beyond me.
There is another issue regarding the second “Psak”. Many justifications Rabbi Rosenberg makes for many of his “decisions”, are based on Hypercritical examples, how can a Psak Halacha be based on a Hypercritical?
Must of the Rabbi Rosenbergs Psak (read footnotes), is based on hypothesis.
dd
finally
the voice of reason and clarity
resolve
“It is in the hour when our values are challenged that we must remain resolved to protect those values.”
Glatt Kosher
In Crown Heights people are makpid to eat Glatt Kosher.
we are trying to spend more money to buy the Meat that has no questions only Glatt.
now this big Dayan come out with a new ruling
No MORE Glatt.
the Rabbi Who is in charge of the Glatt can be questionable.
how will this fit to our day to day Hakpodoh of GLATT ???
the cow has to be holier than the rabbi???
may the Bulls we eat in Crown Heights is really better then such Rabbis
I-M LOVIN IT
Find something to do. No one CARES. Will not listen to bais din,
don’t care at all what these 3 guys wrote, don’t need Braun. I like
it here in C.H. I’ve got GEULAH & MOSHIACH & I love it!!! Others
don’t have GEULAH & MOSHIACH, thats to bad for them. It just gives
more of this great time for me to enjoy & to take advantage of the
GEULAH & MOSHIACH. Thank you MHM!!
hope is all we got
the danger of not having a bais din to listen to, not being bothered by it, leave little hope………….
Michel
Rabbi Osdoba and Rabbi Schwei signed Zablo accepting the Ruling of the Beth Din headed by Rabbi Rosenberg.
Rabbi Rosenberg in the name of the Beth Din says that the elections were valid.
So let us follow the ruling. stop all Machloikes. And bring the third Rav – Rabbi Braun – to Crown Heights!
To Menshe:
The case in point here is not so much about which side is right. It is about being honest to the community members of which an avraich is to become a rov over. The community members have a right to know with clarity the “5 W”’s of how Rabbi Braun is to be condidered an eligible rov. Especially when there are uncertainties involved in his qualifications. After all, he is making decisions for me, based on Halacha, so I as a community member, and YOU as well, need to know “transparently” his history of Smichus. Don’t you think???
This has nothing to do with sides of a bais din, or any other “powers that be” already appointed in the community from which there’s machlokos. This has everything to do with the simple folk like you and me, and the neighbor next door.
Crown Heights Resident
This whole thing is a joke that we could allow someone to be elected to a position to which they will fill for life without truly vetting him is mind boggling.
The fact that R’ Braun has the chutzpah to ignore the rebbe’s directives I’m sure he will pay dearly. We are talking about our yudishkeit questions about mikvah and he is passing himself off as a rav? he and his backers are playing with fire.
where’s the fear of G-D?
Rose lense remover.
It is time for Rabbi Gerltzky, Rabbi Piekarsky, Reb Yoel, and all other Roshei Yeshivah at the time this Braun was a bochur, to come out openly and state what he was really like as a bochur, and their encounters with him.
Please do not worry about Loshon Hora; it is “Eyss La’asoyss LeHashem – Heiferu Torosechah.” The kid gloves need to be removed. Surgical gloves, by all means, for the surgery of removing this fraud from ever taking a position that the Rebbe called “Chassidishe Rabbonim” and instructed us to turn to them as his shliach for answers..
Unfortunately there are many naive residents who place “peace” (as they see it) over halacha and other hashkafa. There is a Miashnah about that: Ha’omer al Kan Tzippor higiyu Rachamechah…“. For those who need translation: It is forbidden to ascribe the mitzva of removing the mother-bird before taking the chicks, as a law instituted as a result of rachmonuss. But don’t we learn such middos and things from mitzvos? Yes. as drush. BUT as halacha it is forbidden. The law is the law. It ias absolute and not to be bent by emotions – as wonderful as they seem to us. So please, all the ”peace“ wishers, do not allow your good heart and pure motives to accept ”anything“ in the name of ”peace”.
However thought or thinks that peace can come washed in with slick and trick, needs to stop for a moment. Accept the intellectual challenge presented here. battle and rattle your wits to support Rosenberg – by all means. But don’t dismiss out of hand, and proclaim that the signatories here are just playing politics. If you are a thinking person, think. If you are not – well you probably haven’t read this far.
shechel
there is not sechel in Ch leadership
1) id Rabbi Braun was not eligible, Why they did not stop the eelctions?
2) if RABBI Rosenberg made the mistake to allow R Brraun to run for the elections. How is it possible that he is in the BD to decide about this?
An open request to our Rabbis
Dear Rabbi Schwei and Osdoba Shlita,
In response to the current situation in Crown Heights, and in relation to the process that has brought more uncertainty then peace. Please put out an open letter to the community regarding your position of the current Psak.
After the initial voting took place, I like many others in the community were ready to welcome our new Rav, we understood that this was the will of the community and it was just that. Unfortunately, many questions came up following that and now there is only one way for this to be resolved. You must work together to clear up the doubt!
ANYTHING SHORT OF BOTH OF YOU GOING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS WITH NO ONE ELSE IN THE ROOM, AND EMERGING WITH A JOINT STATEMENT REGARDING THIS RULING IS UNACCEPTABLE AND A DISSERVICES TO US ALL.
Leaders lead, and it is time for the two of you to become leaders. Setup a time to meet in the next few hours and come to a decision. ONCE AGAIN, DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO BE IN THE ROOM, DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO HAVE AN OPINION!
You are the current undisputed Rabbonim of Crown Heights, it is time you start taking your responsibility seriously. Do not leave this for others!
If after spending time together talking, you cannot come out with a joint statement then you have two choice. 1. We start the din torah again, this time with a Lubavicher Rabbi. 2, each of you should publish individual recommendations, and either we vote as a community for which one we want to go with or we split the community and go our separate ways. (Even though that is how it is not, at least we will be open about it.)
Please understand, this is the position of most of the Crown Heights residents. We need leadership and we need it now as it already might be too late for us and especially the next generation.
yankel
Does Rav Rosenberg have Smicha? seeing his attitude towards Smicha I am not sure if he has it.
The Outsider
I’ll tell you one thing. As an outsider looking in, the Crown Heights community (specifically, its leadership) seems like a bunch of clowns who can’t get anything right. There seems to be nothing that can be accomplished in any area affecting your community without infighting and unnecessary politics.
After the Rebbe ZTZ”L’s passing, many Chabadnicks said that their leadership will lie in the Rebbe’s letters and teachings. You can see how far this is getting you. Without proper leadership your community will crumble and deteriorate both physically (government funding, housing etc.) and spiritually (lack of qualified rabbonim and hechsheirim etc.)
Good luck to you all!
Yechi You!
If anyone had been reading azimovrants you would have heard all these taanos long ago. after this whole story even if it is proven that all is valid he still shouldnt come because at this point the entire community has lost respect for the man!!
Very Funny
It’s very funny – that all Crown Heights residents have Semicha…except the Rav himself…!
smicha
Not only does Rav Braun not have Smicha, his supporters (baalei machlokis) Hendel, Herzog, Sandhous ,Schneerson etc. do not have Smicha.
TORAH
someone please help me make sense of this.
As frume yiden and chassidim we are thought from very young to listen and carefully follow the directives of Rabbonim.
Here wee have a beis din – Zabl“o – AGREED apon by Rabb Osdobo, Rabbi Schwei and all the relevent battleling parties in these issues. This beis din issued a ruling, and now we have some Rabbis (- did they ever realy respect this beis din?) come out and tell us not to listed the the psak din?
in their letter, they call the psak din a LETTER??? and when they actually use the words psak din they put in quotation marks (”)? is this respect? is this Torah? is this chassidus?
didn’t the Rebbe say countless times that anyone who says something in the name of the Rebbe that is contrary to Halacha – we should know that it is 100% false?
A Beis Din of 5 distinguished Rabbonim – voluntarily agreed upon by all parties – and signed clearly that NO OTHER RABBONIM can have any influence in the psak din after it is given – yes, they signed in the ‘shtar borerus’ they they will NOT go to any outside rabbonim if they dont agree with the PSAK (and that no other beis din can intervene in ANY way, shape or fashion!).
I believe that as Jews and Chassidim, there is no other option other then to FULLY accept and follow the Psak Din of THIS zabl”o.
Moshiach Now!
was there an agreement?
Is it true that Rabbis Osdobo and Shwei (and the vaad hakohol) signed that they agreed to accept the ruling of this zablo?
Now that the Psak is not to the liking of some individuals, does that exempt the community from following the laws of the torah – namely to follow the Psak Din of Rabbonim?
What is going on over here?
where is the link?
If there is a link to the actual Zabl”o agreement – from before the din tora began, kindly post it for all to see.
If I’m not mistaken, there is clear language there forbidding any outside rabbonim from mixing into this issue in any state of the developments. I believe it will show that the demands of the above letter are clearly forbidden in this instance.
please shere it with us all. thank you!
to :15. shechel wrote
Rabbi Osdaba wrote to The Dayanim before even elections started to make sure as OUR REBBE said to have a candidate with SHIMUSH. as of today there was no aswer to this.
but as my friend use to say.
did you find a Sircheh on a CHAZER ?
Meir
it seems like there are some who never want there to be peace in this community and will do all in their power to continue fighting. in my world, once you agree to go to Beis Din (zablo), you must follow the ruling – regardless if it benefit you or not.
What are we teaching our youth?
What are we teaching our youth? if you don’t like a psak din, just shop for some other Rabbonim who agree with you? and then blame the Rebbe for it?
Dim Wits
This comment is directed at those against speaking out against the psak:
The Zablo initially issued a ruling stating the elections for Rabbonus must take place on a particular date, and that all candidates must be submitted a month beforehand.
Three candidates were submitted, Rabbi Bogomilsky, Rabbi Chaviv, and Rabbi Mangel.
R. Mangel pulled out. Now the supports of mangel went crying to Rosenberg “we lost our chance to stay involved in machliokes, we dont get to have our own sockputtet in the race”.
So Rosenberg violated his own psak din and pushed off the elections by ten days. But that was not enough.
Rosenbergs psak said that the candidate must be 40 years or older, nevertheless he accepted Mr. Braun as a candidate despite him being 39 years old.
These issues are all before the matter of Mr. Brauns Semicha came to light.
One of the reasons candidates must be accepted a certain period of time before an election is to weed out such problems in advance.
Rosenberg defied that and the result is this catastrophe.
Now since rosenberg and his whole beis din are involved there exsists this notion where outsiders must be brought in to salvage the matter, being that they all became Nogim Badovor.
For those of you too dim to follow all this, and are still blindly supporting Mr. Braun, and calling whomever disagrees ‘sour grapes’ or ‘sore loosers’ go write yourselfs a new shoulchan aruch, and move to Ibiza with Horav Krause and live a happy life there.
to: 28. Dim Wits
I’m not sure you know, but all of the parties agreed that this Zablo beis din with hold authority and power over this issues for a very long time and ANY doubts and questions that arise from the psak can only be dealt with by THIS SAME zablo and no other Rabbonim..
All relevent parties signed to this! so now, NO OTHER RABBONIM have the Halachic right to mix in to this. (yes, they can meet with and present their ideas PRIVATELY with the zablo rabbonim (not over the internet!), but they have no say in PRACTICE as to what will happen!)
tipshim
Enough is enough. Except that this is a gezairoh min hashomayim, and suffer the consequences. Don’t like it than start making a fast to be mevatel the gezairoh. Peopled teshuvah, and other things. But enough with the Loshon horah.
outside rabbonim
I don’t begin to understand. Halacha has ruled. All the quarreling parties agreed to go to this Bais Din. They specifically waived any ability to get other rabbonim involved at any point down the line – regarding these disputed issues.
How can outside Rabbonim now come and attempt to interfere? the “nogim bedovor” clearly committed to follow the ruling of this – and only this bais din!
Let us residents of Crown Heights live. they finally agreed on a path towards a solution. This Bais Din offered their Psak Din. this is “final”!
Please, according to the written and signed agreement, no other Rabbonim are allowed to mix in.
y not
y cant he get shimmush from one of the crown heights rabonim now?
Mechi & Heshi
All of the parties agreed that this Beth Din (Zablo) will hold authority and power over this issue. and that any doubts and questions that arise from the Psak can only be dealt with by THIS SAME Beth Din (Zablo) and no other Rabbonim.
All relevant parties signed to this!
NO OTHER RABBONIM have the Halachic right to mix in to this.
they can meet with and present their ideas PRIVATELY with the Beth Did (Zablo) but for crying out loud – not over the internet!,
But in PRACTICE they have no say as to what will happen!
Please bring Rabbi Braun to Crown Heights!
Milhouse
No matter how many times you shills repeat that “both sides” signed the agreement, you won’t change the fact that NOBODY ELSE DID. The rest of us are NOT bound by this so-called “psak din”, and need not have any respect whatsoever for the so-called “dayonim” who allegedly handed it down. We are not the joint property of Rs Osdoba and Shvey, to be awarded to whomever these dayonim like. If they want us to accept a rov they must persuade us, and the only way they can do that is to be honest with us, present us with ALL the evidence, and let us decide whether we can accept Braun or not. Without that we can only conclude that there is a serious fraud going on, and reject the outcome.
As for those who did sign the shtar, they are not bound by it either. They agreed to arbitration according to Jewish law; they are entitled to be judged according to that law, and not by the whim of the arbitrators. Once it becomes clear that the “dayonim” are perverting the law and natural justice, the parties are no longer bound by their agreement. See the recent case of Barry Mond v Caulfield Shul. And a “psak din” that is predicated on fraud is not worth the paper it’s written on. It is “chaspa be’alma”.
a Tzubrochen Hartz
Would Rosenberg get married to a woman who received a get from Braun! More importantly if the Kehilla would have known before the election what we know now the results would be very different. BTW, who believes for a second that 38 year old Mr. Braun woke up one day a year ago & decided I’m going to get Semicha! We are being made into real fools and no other Bais Din will respect any Psak that would be rendered by Braun and this is how we are treating a Moised that the Rebbe MH”M had so much Mesiras Nefesh establishing (fighting the establishment). How long are we going to allow Hendel & his cronies to lead us over the cliff?! Yehi Hamelech (now more than ever)!
Friend
Rabbi braun should not think that the world are mad ans stupid.
You cant buy CH peoples with the crap that “sydney australia are making peoples dreaming because its australia new and far” stop it.
Australia are a emty country and the community ther are very samall.
How peoples dont are shy to not answer to the public about the smiha how he can hide it.. i mean the realy answers about it…
Thanks g-d that we have Rabbi Yoel Khan here!
zeev
Do you know that after/during the elections for the Beis Din in 5747 there were also choshuve people that went on a all out war against the elections and candidates – in the “name” of the Rebbe…
very well
great work. its really so true all what is writin. before pepole make negetive comments. REED IT. i dont know why but it seems that Rosenberg A. has no respect for Chabad Smiche and therefor feels he can just make C’H fourse a rov in. B. has something in with Broins family. both come from the same Hungrean back round
anonymous
Rabbi Braun is “OSSID LITEN ES HADIN” for making a mockery in public of the Rebbe’s clear rules…1) don’t come here if u have an other position somewhere else, 2) you MUST have Shimush..
Y. Broin is actually laughing at the Rebbeh in public.
One person is dominating here:
It is very obvious that one person is sending in many comments – all reading the same: A Zabla agreement was signed… no others to mix in … Braun won…. You cannot take it (yeh. R.Yoel can’t take a loss. He copped the biggest embarrassment anyone could on the 3rd Tammuz 5754. And he faced up to it.)
Blah blah blah.
Trying to convince the gullible that Braun has a crooked nickel worth of support. He has very little at this stage (much less than people think. A few “frisheh voss veissen nisht voss tut zich, un mefirt zey baym noz”) All he has is a billionare, his cronies (which include Schwei – he says openly that Schwei doesn’t do a thing unless told).
The bottom line: Schwei should be taken to a Din Torah for accepting this garbage into the shchunah and then keeping quiet. A ysh in chassidishe acting mode.) Or he should step down voluntarily. Even if it means we are “stuck with Osdoba – we are anyway because he has the Rebbe’s clear support.
Bewildered
R’ Braun hasn’t stepped unto American soil and is already faced with so much opposition.
I wonder why he wants to come here.
Don-t like frauds
There is something about frauds that I don’t like:
Avraham Boruch Rosenberg, Moishe Havlin, Yosef Hecht, Boruch Boaz Yurkowitz, Binyamin Kuperman — frauds all of them. Oh, one more, Mr. Braun.
The first five should be “impeached” and their Rabbinical titles removed. Braun doesn’t need such censure, since he never was a Rov. He should just crawl back into the hole from which he came.
Tracht Gut
NOTICE:
1. The people supporting Bruan don’t use logical arguments. They are not dealing with the issues/problems at hand.
Like their Liberals counter-part (the American left), they resort to name calling. They bash/insult those who dare to question.
2. Why are the Braun Supporters so nervous, why are they so jumpy? If everything is so clear cut and your man “won”, then where the self confidence, why are you writing comments in defense? As far as you should be concerned, it’s all good, you should be on top of the world. But your not, your having doubts, thats why your here, on the web, defending your so called winner (writing comments.
Reading your comments, I must conclude that your not trying to convince us (the ones asking the right questions), your trying to convince yourselves.
3. The Braun supporters have written either directly or indirectly the following…“You lost, we won, deal with it”.
The question I have is…
What did we lose?
What did you win?
Reading the reaction of the Braun supporters, one must conclude they they don’t feel like winners and we (who question and seek peace, justice and Emes/Truth), are not the losers they make us out to be, by their own reaction, I must conclude that we are the winners and they are the losers.
*Braun supporters: Are the same people who have and still justify and excuse acts of violence, propaganda and Mesira/Blood Libel against fellow Jews.
2 bati dinim
it’s time to address real problem in CH
Reality says that we need 2 batei dinim
1 Moshichist and 1 non Moshichist
ruvi
We need an Ikul from any Bais DIn to stop this Rav Braun …
Levi
Mr. #42
So in your enlightend world, if 5 distinguished Rabbonim issue a psak which dosent find favor in your eys – they must all be “frauds . . “impeached” and their Rabbinical titles removed”.
Very logical…. This must be the time honored way of the Torah…r”l
“VEN ES TUT VAI SHRAIT MEN”
A Major Catastrophe
My Dear fellow Chabad Chassidim sheyichyu,
I don’t begin to understand what all the above comments are for:
All that Reb Yoel, Rabbi Garelitzky and Rabbi Levin are asking are some extremely VALID questions that NEED to be answered and SHOULD be haunting EVERY member of our (THE REBBE’S) Shchuna. Avoiding these issues and not demanding answers is only going to catch up with us later, if what we’ve seen till now hasn’t been enough.
These three (Reb Yoel, Rabbi Garelitzky and Rabbi Levin) are from our absolute finest & most reliable when it comes to THE REBBES INYONIM.
How in the world can you hire such a person with all these issues are upon him? (If Walmart opens in Brooklyn they may consider Braun’s “smicha” if he’s lucky enough.)
Rev Rosenberg DID NOT really address these scary issues, all he is trying to do is sweep it under the carpet because he DOES NOT care for this shchuna and what this shchuna stands for.
Real Chasiddim would tear KRIAH for the way he addresses our people in such a condescending way. FE FE FE!!
Also where are the voices or signatures of the LUBAVITCHER ZABLA RABONIM?
WAKE UP TIERE CHAVAIRIM before its to late!!
“VEN ES TUT VAI SHRAIT MEN”
But all 5 didnt sign!
@ 46. Levi
And that precisely was the challenge of this letter, if the 4 Lubavitcher Rabbonim agree with the Pask, let them sign it.
But they wont, because no Lubavitcher worth his salt would sign such a document going against the Rebbe’s instructions and insulting Lubavithcher Smicha.
Shomrim Six
Since much of the second “psak” was based on many hypothesis, I myself (taking a lesson from the “psak”) have a few hypothetical questions for Bruan.
1. Had you been already elected Rabbi, at the time the Shomrim Six trial was happening or a few days before the actual trial begone, what would you have done, what course of action would you have taken (as a Rov in the community), to stop/prevent the vicious Mesira/BLOOD LIBEL?
Hypothetically: Have in mind, It’s a few days before trial, 6 innocent Jews are facing over 120 counts and if found guilty can face up to 15+ years in prison, there is no time to waste. Action and only action must be taken. What course of action would be taken?
The situation that took place last year…
http://whoisshmira.wordpres…
2. What course of actions would you take to stop all the daily mesiras taking place?
3. What course of action would you take to stop the corruption in the CHJCC (of millions being stolen from the people of Crown Heights)?
Milhouse
#46, if 100 rabbis sign an obvious falsehood it remains false. Korach signed up 250 rabbonim, but it didn’t help him because truth is truth and lies are lies. Pirkei Ovos tells us what is the result of “inuy hadin”, “ivus hadin”, and “hamorim batoro shelo kahalocho”; it seems to me that all three are blatantly present here.
question
As a ‘poshuter yid’, once the Beis din with sole jurisdiction and authority on these matters issued their ‘psak din’, it is final – 1000% and Rabbi Braun is the 3rd Rov of Crown Heights
But just for an intellectual exercise, I just went back and took a look at a ‘tzetel’ that was making it’s rounds over the web some time ago – written by Rabbi Eliezer Zirkind to the Rebbe dated 21 Tamuz, 5746, where he reports to the Rebbe that he had fulfilled the ‘shlichus’ of the Rebbe to see the ‘smichas’ of the 3 elected Rabbonim to the Bais Din.
Question: was this the first time the newly elected Rabbonim were requested to present their ‘semicha’ documents to the rabbonim in charge of the elections? Was there a previous time they were required to do so? Because I believe that 21 Tamuz 5746 was well after the campaigning prior to the elections, after the elections of Rabbi Marlow a”h and yblch”t Rabbi Osdobo, and also after the subsequent election of Rabbi Heller.
If that is indeed the case, can we learn from here that the Rebbe wanted to make sure that before they have the ‘Hachtara’ for the Rabbonim and actually seat them as Rabbonim they actually possessed semicha document (there was no doubt about the level of knowledge of these three distinguished Rabbonim, but in order to be actually seated as acting rov, one needs to possess this document), but this was not a concern earlier, during the process of being qualified as a candidate or the actual elections…
If this is not the case, please enlighten me.
carefull
to #51
Shlichus of the Rebbe? were does it say that the Rebbe requested that? Doesn’t even say that he presented the smichos to the Rebbe. From Rabbi Zirkinds letter is mashma he did not show the smiches to the Rebbe otherwise why does he have to write to the Rebbe the status of each Rabbis smicho when the Rebbe can see it for himself.
Kloli
Watch the next step after this letter, the merkozi kloli (the ‘neutral’ BD of Lubavitcher Rabbonim’) is stepping in and is issuing an injunction!(Dovid Schochat, Zish Winner and Moshe Bogomilsky (nogea bedovor? so what! Schohats brother in law? so what!) What a farse!
Hadar Hatora
I attend the shiur that Rabbi Osdoba gives every Sunday at Haddar Hatora. This past Sunday Rabbi Osdoba took from his precious time and explained what’s going on and why he is against Rabbi Braun. At the end he pulled out a paper and asked everyone should sign. It was a petition written to the Vaad Rabbonim Merkozy Keloly to step in and put a yikul to install the new elected Rov. Many left with out signing. Others refused to sign and the Rabbi got upset on them. He said he need to collect 100 signatures. Some did sign. I felt bad for the Rabbi that he himself has to go around and do this (from not having his own candidates for Vaad or Rov elections and forced to support his own enemiers I saw that he is alone, he is fighting the battle single handed). The first thing that came into my mind was what Rashi says in parshas bolok regarding Bilom preparing himself the donkey, due to the sinah he had for the yidden he didn’t care about his kovod. Whoever is right it does not matter, if sinah is here involved I will not be part of it and I left with out signing.
OY VAY THE VELT ZOGT
in the parshas Toldot Chapter 26 verse 13
And the man became great, and he grew constantly greater until he had grown very great.
Rashi: So that people would say: “[Rather] the dung of Yitzchok’s mules than the silver and gold of Avimelech.
i remember Growing up in Crown Heights listening to Chasidim how thy would respect anything that is from yitzchok OURS
and now we see here how the outside is REALLY Garbage how much DISRESPECT for our Values Our REBBE.
shame on this braun, Shwei and their CULT.
Warning: This is long
To all those saying that “We need to follow Zabl”o’
You’re right that zabl“o isnt a joke!
But we as a community are allowed to think it over and are entitled to know answers to our questions. Were not in a dictatorial country. we can ask!
The Rebbe was very into the community choosing whom they want.But in this election, it wasnt as if we voted democratically because there was major information hidden from us. It says Lifnei EIver Lo sieten michshol.we were voting blindfolded. We didnt know that a rov was laughing behind our backs letting a Rov (only a mask) with no or questionable smichah candidate for elections!
also, as much as we need to hear the ruling, we didnt sign that we’d listen to the psak, the Rabbanim and VHK”L did. We as a community feel very betrayed by the shocking information being hidden from us and we dont want to feel tied back from asking questions.So does the rov has all the power to trap a community like this? NOOO!
Just to mention, L’havdil elef havdolos, When yidden followed sha”tz so blindly, it led very far from Torah. If we see halachic questions popping all around the situation were in, we have a right to test the validity of this Psak!
Kurvah and Churvah
Has anyone researched how close Rosenberg is to the Broin family in Williamsburg?
Reb Tzig HaMatzig
To #51:
Indeed you are a posheter yid.
Have you ever opened a Shulchan Aruch to learn the siman 25 in hilchos dayanim? The title: What if a dayan made an error in his psak. (There is a financial liability discussed there also.)
You and your likes are the churban here. Making general rules with the background of no knowledge. Besmirching chosuveh chassidim with the abandon of a true am-haaretz.
Shaychus tzum lernen vi a tzig tu shaleshudess.
Question #2 (51)
Is there any evidence to suggest that when the Rebbe tasked Rabbi Zirkind to personally see the newly elected Rabbonim’s semicha, the Rebbe inssisted that the Semicha be dated prior to the date that they offered up their candidacy to Run as a Chaver Beis Din, or did the Rebbe want to make sure that they have the semicha document before they actually take office.
It’s very clear that one can have an enormous knowledge of Halacha and lack an official Semicha, and if he chooses to get this document, he wouldn’t have to study anything new in order to be tested – as he is intimately knowledgeable in the fine intricacies of the relevant Halocos and much much more. He would immediately get tested and ordained – same day!
So, is there any indication that had they not be able to produce the document dated “before” the elections, that the elections would have to be re-done?
In our situation here, the bottom line is that Halacha has spoken (zablo).
To #9 I-m Lovin It
Good for you. It’s a shame so many are caught up in this case, which in any case will not make a diference. Nice to hear that
someone is Eivdue es Hashem B’Simchah. Keep up the good work.
Milhouse
Mr “question”, who is probably the same person posting under 10 different names, WHO THE !@#$% GAVE this so-called beis din “sole jurisdiction and authority”? I certainly didn’t, and nor did anyone I know. I do NOT submit to their jurisdiction or authority, and they will NOT impose a rov on me without my consent. End of story. If they want me to accept their word they are going to have to persuade me, and before they can even begin to do that they will have to show me that they respect me. So long as they consider me like some sort of subject who can be ordered to accept whatever they dish up, they can go to a hot place, and I don’t mean Arizona.
to 51. question wrote:
You are making a valid point
even though the rebbe Trusted that someone without smicha will run for the job he still wanted the community reps to see the “paper” and make sure it is valid to contract the person for the position.
as if you are posting a Job opening for a bus driver after all interviews before you hand the key to the Bus you have to see the Driver License. and stories will not help and even copy of driver license will not help only original license with your picture will hand you the keys and the pay check. i hope before signing any contracts The individual who is doing for the community make sure to see original and keep the copy in the file.
and if not TOO BAD>
Wanda Ring
To the Shomrim Six:
Excellent questions. Where were you when the candidates for Rov were taking questions, in an open public forum, at Lubavitcher Yeshiva Crown Street? I presented a question there and received a partly unsatisfactory answer from Rabbi Braun. Everyone present heard the question AND answer and was able to judge for themselves.
Inda Know
“Prominent Community Figures Demand Transparency”
In other words, these three “educators” want to be invisible, so their actions are not seen for what they are, nothing more than third rate political hacking!
We want a new election!
@ 54. Hadar Hatora
Don’t believe you, there are hundreds, possibly thousands here in CH WHO WOULD SIGN THAT PAPER.
to Mr. Milhouse
The elected Rabbonim and public officials (vaad hakohol) signed as the leaders and elected representitives of the entire comunity.
You can say that you dont accept it. but when the elected rabbonim and public representitives enter into a legal/halachic agreement, it affects the entire community.
(lemashal, if congress or the president enters into a legal agreement on behalf of the country, a single citizen cannot say that he is not represented by the congress and therefore not bound by the results… If you chose to do something against the agreement, you can be tried and convicted in court…)
Dim Wits
to 66.
Allow me to properly correct you:
Those who signed on this Zablo happen to be a group of people that were ousted by the very same Beis Din which declared their election to be questionable. So no, they do not represent us.
Tamir, Hackner and Brownstein do represent us, they were properly elected at the time. Though their approval rating is les then that of Bloobergs or Obamas, but thats an entirely different cup of tea.
The only (pseudo) reps who signed are Rabbis O and S, they can (very) arguably be the parties that rep us.
The fact that the ilk of Schneerson, Ssndhaus, Nash, Hendel and Herzog were a part of this detracted from its credibility.
And as a matter of fact i believe you Mr. 66 are one of those names.
Levi
2 things.
1] Just because CH community members vote in the Rov doesn’t mean they have authority over the process. The reason they vote is because the Rebbe said to vote and because they need to have some input as to who they want to be their Rov. But that doesn’t make this democratic elections. After the kehila signal who would be their choice, any remaining halachic issues must be decided al pi halocho ie with a din torah. To say that I, as a voter, must also agree with the din torah is ridiculous.
2] Does anyone think that if these elections were being held 25 years ago, that anyone would mind when the Rov’s smicha was dated!?! The point is that CH will never get a new Rov unless they decide to accept the process even if it brings in someone who is on the opposite side of the political spectrum.
I have accepted the psak din, even though I am anything but inclined to be machzik that side of things. People need to have more faith in the Rabbonim and the Rabbonim need to do more to deserve that faith. But thats their job; ours is to go to work, learn a blat gemorah in the evenings, and vote when asked to vote. And leave the rest to them.
to millhouse
rabbis osdoba and shwei made an agreement to abide by the election results and the decisions of the beis din. rabbi rosenberg became the consensus dayan after our two rabonim picked their representatives to the din torah. all these issues were discussed and ruled upon by the beis din. no matter the outcome, both r. osdoba and r. shwei now have a responsibilty to the community to accept and enforce that ruling. see mishna rosh hashonah 2:9 on how, and why, this should be done.
Milhouse
#69, you are a complete am ho’oretz. First of all, why should we care what they signed. We didn’t sign anything. Second, a zablo “beis din” is not the Sanhedrin in Lishkas Hagozis; there is no obligation to give it any respect. Third, a shtar borerus is meaningless when the process turns corrupt; a shtar borerus is a consent to be judged justly and honestly by dinei torah, not to be subject to an arbitrary denial of natural justice. See the recent case of Barry Mond v Caulfield Shul. If a beis din transgresses the rules of natural justice it has no authority.
To #65
Thats the point here. No one blieves anyone. I’m sure it is true.
I saw this person blow up at much lesser situations. Even in halachic situations he flips out. He has no control over his emotions and should not have ANY authority. Of course, he should
be helped to get proper treatment, but you can not help someone
who refuses to accept that he has severe emotional problems. I am
talking from experience. I used to help twice a week at hospitals
for people that were choleh b’nefesh. The doctors pleaded with me
to get my degree because they did not have doctors who were having
the success that I was having. Yes, I am very successful at helping people, with HaShem’s help, but the patient first & foremost must want & agree to get help. So much illness is being
revealed on these sites, discussing this situation & so many other
troubling things. The REBBE MHM addressed this problem at a farbrengen saying that you should first try to make these people well & not to cram the Torah & Mitzvots down their throat. I love
it here in C.H. & it is very painful hearing & reading the things
being said, but do NOT make the mistake in thinking that it is better in other places & communities, it is NOT. And in most cases
it is much worse. I receive calls from all over & meet with people
from all over, & it is at a crisis point, already,now. I in no way
believe that a Bais Din of 3,5,7, or 71 can or will help the people. Get help, make yourselves well first. With LOVE. Hatzlachah
Rabbah. I’m Lovin It.
To # 71
If someone failed at even getting his own brother well, how can he claim to “know it all”?
#69 to millhouse
calling me names does not bolster your argument.
if you voted in the election you are bound by it’s results. if you there are legitimate questions, a court decides on the outcome (since you like bringing up secular cases see bush v gore). i brought up the mishna not to compare r. rosenberg’s beis din to rabban gamliel’s. i brought it up to show how our sages dealt with a fundamental disagreement over a psak. i’m not saying that you are ever required to go to a particular rov for anything, but we as a community need to get past this cancer. if someone now issues an ikul, we will really be in deep do-do and ein l’davar soif.
because of my obvious am haratzus i don’t know what “natural law” is don’t understand what influence it has on a din torah. please enlighten me.
Dear #70. Milhouse
your arguments are incredible. in the vast majority of diney torah, the loosing party will go out and say that the bsis din is corrupt… anything new?
This clearly IS a COMMUNITY issue. It was a bitter fight between the 2 Rabbonim on the Beis Din. additionally, there were deep problems and disagreements between the beis din and the elected representatives of the community – vaad hakohol.
These parties finally agreed (it was long overdue) to settle their disputes by going to an agreed upon zablo of 5 distinguished rabbonim from outside the CH community. They agreed that this zablo will have sole jurisdiction to settle ALL the disputed matters and oversee its implementation and interpretation- to the very end. they specifically committed to not try to get outside individuals and Rabbonim to try and manipulate the situation after the psak din
(-something that unfortunatly happens all to often, that the loosing party of a din torah searches far and wide to find some ‘rabbonim’ that will sign a letter questioning the psak din, and then will come back and say “i don’t need to folow the psak din – look, i have rabbonim backing me up. In this din torah, this possibility was removed BEFORE the din torah began, by both parties signing that they cannot engage in this type of behavior, and that outside opinions (not that of the majority of these 5 selected rabbonim) will NOT be considered and hold absolutely no weight – under any circumstances.)
Therefore, the beis din and the vaad hakohol are halachicly (and perhaps legaly) obligated to completely folow the ruling of this zablo. you can bring the bigest rabbonim in the world to speak out against it – it won’t help.
I believe that the vaad hakohol consists of ehliche yiden who will fully follow halacha.
A Rav as a Dugma Chaya
If any one of the 2 Rabbonim, who had agreed to this Zabla Beis Din – If any one of them should refuse to follow this Zabla Psak Din, he has made a mockery of all future Din Torah’s in C.H.
If a Rov refuses to follow the Psak Din of a Din Torah where HE, HIMSELF is under their jurisdiction, then certainly he can’t expect that anyone else litigated by him, could ever possibly listen to his Psak Din, either, sitting his own Rav, as a “Dugma Chaya” – a living example of how we should all behave, refusing to follow every Psak Din, if we loose.
To #72
Have no idea what you mean. Do you? From #71. No one knows it all,
that’s for sure.
SHAME!
Even Moshe Rabeinu himself can’t dispute a psak din! Shameful!!!
Important note to RABBI ROSENBERG
I hope Rabbi Rosenberg, and those who care about him, reads this comment. Rabbi Rosenberg, please be ‘modeh al ha’emes’ before it is too late. As it says in Pirkei Avos (5) – a Chacham is modeh al ha’emes. You know deep down the truth, as Chazal say – Nikarim Divrei Emes. Please, please, please be modeh before it is too late. For what reason would you want to sacrifice everything for this inyan? ‘Chop arein’ while there is still time.