Yeshivah Centre dayan Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner has rejected a petition asking for a controversial sign to be removed from Chabad’s central synagogue.
Rabbi Telsner Rejects Yeshivah Petition
Yeshivah Centre dayan Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner has rejected a petition asking for a controversial sign to be removed from Chabad’s central synagogue.
In response, petition organizers have proposed to take the matter to a higher authority for a ruling, citing Lubavitch headquarters in New York as potential mediators.
For 18 years, a large sign with the words of the prayer Yechi has been hanging at the back of the Yeshivah synagogue. But following the ostracizing of a group known as the “Moshiach Men” from the Chabad community, synagogue members petitioned to have the sign removed.
They argued it was divisive and gave oxygen to those fringe members who believe the late Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah.
Responding to the petition last week, Rabbi Telsner said the sign would remain in the Hotham Street shul, in line with a ruling by the late head of the Yeshivah Centre, Rabbi Yitzchok Dovid Groner.
“I see no reason to change the status quo and am upholding Rabbi Groner’s psak [ruling] in relation to this matter,” he wrote in a letter to Yeshivah congregants.
But many members have responded angrily. Community stalwart Emmanuel Althaus said Rabbi Telsner had selectively quoted Rabbi Groner’s ruling.
Rabbi Groner’s full ruling, he explained, also banned the shouting out of the Yechi prayer -– a practice that continues to this day, despite leaving many members feeling uncomfortable.
Althaus said with Rabbi Telsner’s inaction, the matter has just been swept under the carpet.
“This issue, irrespective of the individuals involved, is going to keep on bubbling, it has not been resolved,” he said, criticising the lack of accountability and transparency within the Yeshivah.
Menachem Vorchheimer, one of the petition’s organisers, has proposed the matter be escalated and referred to Merkos, the Lubavitch headquarters, in New York.
“It is apparent that legacy issues and conflict of interest present a roadblock standing in the way of Rabbi Telsner making an objective decision based on current circumstances and with respect to the future of Yeshivah,” Vorchheimer said. “We have respectfully made our views clear in this regard.”
The Melbourne businessman argued that if not resolved by Merkos, the issue could cause “further irreparable damage to Chabad Lubavitch in Melbourne and elsewhere”.
truth be told
The Yechi sign in Melbourne cannot be considered beoyfen hamiskabel, and thus needs to be removed
downunder
Melbourne Lubavitch has been under pressure for many years. The Yehsivah shule is empty as many long standing members have left in protest over the Yechi sign. Melbourne Chabad leadership has been too slow to react, and this is why this has all come about. The Yehsivah school is also in a lot of trouble.
losing face
Many people were nisrachek from Lubavitch and chasisdus because of the offending Yechi sign and it is a choyv kodosh to try to do everything (b’darchei noam) to have it removed.
merkos
merkos needs to intervene. it is time there was a centralised approach from chabad on this issue. we need leadership!
joseph
What have Merkoz got to do with it.
what is the point of having a rav when you dont respect his ruling. you people in melbourne think that because you have money you can run the community
Yossi Cohen
These petitioners are crazy. Why do they have to publicize this in the newspapers. Why do they have to make this public.
Rabbi Gutnick is walking on a tightrope and playing with fire. Its enough you caused a huge chilul hashem in Australia with your own brother in law Rabbi Feldman. When will you learn from your mistakes?
slogans are not for lubavitch
If lubavitch is serious about kiruv, then we need to address our image with the larger community. The Yechi sign is impendiment in this regard. If lubavitch is to grow and prosper, we must get rid of the slogans
beoyfen hamiskabel
If Telsner is confident, then he should agree to Merkos mediating. If he denies, it means Telsner knows that beoyfen hamiskabel applies, and that the Yechi sign has no standing and must be removed…
emmanuel for vaad
go emmanuel
Teslner is the Dayan only
Melbourne has been without a Rov since Groner passed away..Telsner was appointed as Dayan
A beliver the son of belivers
As said many times before, the removal of the sign does not change anything. They will still yell yechi regardless of the sign or not. I think that the way to overcome this is simple have a vote by the shul (with paying members) if the sign or yechi should stay or go.
Fortunatley in crown heights, The sign in 770 does not negatively affect those that pray there. I do feel however that the screaming and fighting should end regarding this issue. If there is no achdus in the rebbes shul and the ‘younger ,smarter crowd” takes over willfully disrespecting the proper order of things, woe is to them.
They have caused anomosity in the greatest shul of all time.
May moschiach enlihten our hearts and feelings as we move into ADAR hopefully with joyous and loving feelings for each other.
shmuel lewis
isn’t Telsner negayah bedover, and thus poter from making a decision?
meir shlomo
Former students of Yeshivah Melbourne opened another school because of the Yechi issue. The new school is thriving whilst yeshivah is failing.
disapointed
to #1
if hanging a yechi sign in a LUBAVITCH shul is not beoyfen hamskabel then I don’t know what is!
kol hakvod
kol hakvod to those who have had the courage to stand up and end this craziness – the mishchists are killing Chabad
truth be told
to “disappointed”, are you aware that not all Chabadnicks believe in Yechi – this is what beoyfen hamskabel is all about – embracement by all
chabad is hurting
I think Merkos needs to intervene…chabad is hurting
yeshivah melbourne is empty
I heard the young anash also established another minyan away from the yechi sign and main shule…seems like everyone is leaving
moshiach men needed for minyan
Everyone is leaving, soon all that will be left in Melbourne will be Telsner and his Yechi sign..maybe he will have to ask the “Moshiach Men” who ate on asareah beteves to come and help make a minyan!?!
Sydney
Do you people actually think Merkos would give an unbiased opinion?! And do you think Telsner would give his authority up to Kotlarsky’s?!
Sholom Mendel K
I heard that SMK is having a hard time raising money from the community because people are angry about the Yechi sign
Employees were not allowed to sign
The word in Melbourne is employees of Yeshivah Centre were banned from signing the petition, and told they would loose their jobs if they did. This led to a couple of ziknay anash having to ask for their names to be removed after they were called in to Rabbi Telsner’s office…looks like Telsner has a fight on his hand
CHT
It is extremely illogical to bring ofen hamiskabel as a point here because there are as many different ofen hamiskabel as people – ofen hamiskabel is totally subjective matter. For some, this work, for others this works and so on. To some, yechi help mekarev, to some no yechi helps mekarev, to some yechi misrachek, to the others no-yechi misrachek. And everyone will fit where he or she feels comfortable. Open beis moshiach, open kfar chabad and you will see plenty of mekurov stories in each magazine, so everyone, stop pretending that you are sure there is only one ofen hamiskabel. Why don’t we go back to basics of R Akiva teaching and simply start respecting each other.
ego mania
like a wise Moshe Feiglin said: this whole problem comes from yeshus and the ego drive of little shoemakers wanting to be leaders. But there’s no worry, cuz, the Rebbe is in charge. NOT instigator Emmanuel Althaus, vorcheimer or the other three little lemechels that are fighting instead of davening in shul
Silence of the Lambs
To: A beliver the son of belivers
You wrote: “Fortunatley in crown heights, The sign in 770 does not negatively affect those that pray there.”
Is that a purim joke?
Do you know how many shluchim won’t bring mekurovim to 770 – because of the signs?
Do you know how many local anash no longer feel welcome in 770 – because of the signs? Think of all the many packed shuls in Crown Heights – packed with anash that don’t feel comfortable in 770.
Do you know how many of us come to 770 and sit there in pain and embarassment because of the signs? We are the silent majority.
Because of our silence – we suffer.
antimesira
“Fortunately in crown heights, The sign in 770 does not negatively affect those that pray there.”
That says a lot. who prays in 770 these days how many new shuls have opened since 3 Tammuz 5754 (1994)?
i know of hundreds of people in Crown Heights who have not stepped in the downstairs of 770 in years.
So my friend, get your head out of the sand and look around, perhaps take a visit to all the local shuls and take a look around.
,moshe der g
yes let us all unite agaisnt the dayan because we dont like his psak
let us all (with alot of money) buy a new dayan so we can get the psak din WE WANT
this is whatthese people are doing they only want that people shoudl respect THEIR opinion and have no regard to others,
apparantly it is not so simple, and that they use all tehse negative terms about lubavitch being merachek yidden etc etc.
my god, dontyou people know the history of lubavitch………
every mivtzah the rebbe came out with sytarting with mivtzah tefilin was ridiculed by every other kreis they all rallied against us and we stood firm, now all of a sudden we are ashamed and say we need to worry about them.
lubavitch was always different and we shall remain so.
they will hate us(those that do) with yechi and without yechi. and those that respect us will do so the same with yechi and without yechi.
they will find other excuses to hate us. their jealousy of us will not end. and as the famous saying of the friedicker rebbe about the water to put out the fire…………
be strong and respect a dayan even if you disagree with him
Apalled
Who the heck is vorscheimer to take a stand agains a rov? He has alot of gall. I have heard not good things happen to am haaratzim who belittle a respected and halachas observing rov. Perhaps vorscheimer could better spend his time learning or pursuing ahavas yisroel, rather than cause machloikes and unrest. Shame shame on you!
Alexander
Why is the Rav’s decision not respected???
The sign does not cause division, the people who reject the sign and what it signifies do.
Divide and Conquer
Rabbi Shmuel Kaplan of Merkoz visited Melbourne eight months ago, ostensibly to give a talk in honour of Gimmel Tammuz.
The “fruits” of his labour:
1. The appointment of Yossel as a new head Shliach – despite the fact R’ Arel Serebryanski is the head Shliach of the Moisdos that he established in Melbourne, and that Rabbi Groner z“l (and after his passing, the local Groner family of Shluchim) is the head Shliach of all the other local Mosdos.
2. The igniting of a massive Yechi controversy – the likes of which we have not seen even in the days after Gimmel Tammuz. [Most members of the Shule – yes, on both sides of the debate – are sickened by the extent to which Vorsh, New, Althaus and Yossel have taken this!]
3. And now, advice that a local Rov of a Lubavitcher Shul can be ”overruled” by Merkoz. [Pretty interesting: since when can a Rov be overruled by an overseas board of Askanim who are essentially not Rabbonim!]
The objective is clear: Divide and Conquer
And we, in Melbourne, had our heads in the sand by allowing the aforementioned individual to visit.
Melbourne boy
I agree with “A beliver the son of belivers” there should be a vote, not just for the sign, but for the Executive. then the shule could appoint a Rov, rather than be in a state of limbo like it is now, without real leadership – the Yeshivah is hurting
beis din should decide
If Telsner does not want to go to Merkos, is he happy to go to beis din?
a neighborhood resident
more hate & spite The real issue is not Yechi or no Yechi The Rebbe is Lubavitch & Lubavitch is the Rebbe not Gutnick not self haters etc.Telsner is The Rav The Dayan why is there no respect for him? The answer is Gutnick & others want to tailor their own views to fit everyone They say The Rebee is Ch”v not here & they are in charge etc. Gimmel Tammuz Didn’t change a thing! those who were expelled distanced were those that went against Halachah & against The Rebbe! Why are the haters against Simcha?
signed the petition
i heard many members of the founding families of Yeshivah and Chabad in Australia have signed the peition for the sign to come down
Opinion of a Melbournian
I would like to point out the various mistruths and half-truths in this article, which you can confirm with any Melbournian.
1. “They argued it was divisive and gave oxygen to those fringe members who believe the late Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah”.
No one in his right mind can say that the fringe members (AKA “Moshiach Men”) in our community are fueled by the sign. The presence of a sign, or lack thereof, would not have in the slightest way change their behaviour.
2. “Community stalwart Emmanuel Althaus said Rabbi Telsner had selectively quoted Rabbi Groner’s ruling”.
Emmanuel Althaus did not day that Rabbi Telsner had selectively quoted Rabbi Groner’s ruling. He challenged the ruling of Rabbi Groner himself – in the most derogatory way. [Bizuei Talmid Chochom L’achar Moisoy! See Shulchan Aruch Y”D 243 and 334.] It is all in writing, and cannot be denied!
3. “Rabbi Groner’s full ruling, he explained, also banned the shouting out of the Yechi prayer -– a practice that continues to this day, despite leaving many members feeling uncomfortable”.
Yechi, in fact, is not recited in the main Shule – in complete accordance with Rabbi Groner’s directive. How could one lie about that?
4. “Althaus said with Rabbi Telsner’s inaction, the matter has just been swept under the carpet”.
I think that this statement should really say: With Althaus’ (New, Vorsh and Yossel) action, the matter has been swept out from under the carpet.
5. “criticising the lack of accountability and transparency within the Yeshivah”.
We are talking about our Rov here. Since when is a Rov to be held accountable to one of his few dissidents?
fry out
if you want to friyyy out comon you coldint find a better excuse yichi is the only thing that bothers you
yoni
i went to yeshivah school and used to daven at the shule, but left when the meshichists took over…they made me feel like I was not welcome.
ruvi
Telsner was never accepted by the local community he was forced down our …. without elections etc..
Let him go back to England
Emmanuel
I have been told by reliable sources that on occasions Rabbi Groner had complained he was being hounded by the younger hard core set, that they were tearing strips off him, that they were insinuating he was not a Chossid of the Rebbe, that if he were to take off the Yechi he would be answerable to the Rebbe in the hereafter.
meir
is not the same kind of banner in 770 ?
yossi
these petitioners are causing the damage!!!! Not the fact that Rabbi Telsner doesn’t want to take off the sign. Maybe people will see that there are some people who call themselves Meshichists, but cause chillul Hashem, but the majority of Meshichists are people like Rabbi Telsner.Hashem should give strength to Rabbi Telsner not to succumb to these petitioners.What was true 18 years ago, is true today. The truth doesn’t change
The Rebbe was against Yechi
The Rebbe made it clear that if the Yechi campaign causes even ONE Jew to be alienated from Chabad/Chassidus, the Rebbe was absolutely and passionately against the promotion.
mashpia
I heard that this past shabbos in Melbourne, the mashpiah told people in shule, if they do not like Yechi sign they should leave
anonymous
i’m broken, hearing about this.
i lived in the lubavitch melbourne community for a year, and i always respected the peace that the huge community was able to keep. now things are comign to the surface and my neshama is weeping for the loss of such a achdusdik community.
open a book and then talk
kol hakovd r’ telsner for doing the right thing, i have so mutch to say to you fools who never learnd a word on the sudject and then comment on what beofen hamiskabel means. Go open a book and then talk, you dont know, or you just dont give a hoot about enything the rebbe wants but you comment on things like this and show how littel you know.
MK
ajnwatch: is against Rabbi Telsner and want print any thing positive about Yechi sign or Rabbi Telsner
Rabbi Telsner is the Rabbi of Yeshivah as Rabbi Groner told
me that Rabbi Telsner will replace him.
to Kol Hakvod
With Chabad growing and expanding all over the world, thriving and florishing, bringing more and more mekarvimm– I hardly think that anyone is “killing Chabad.”
problems downunder
I heard the same mashpia accused other people of being poigem the kovoid of the Rov, when, in the same talk, not 5 minutes earlier, he publicly stated that he does not know whether he would listen to the Rov if he was told to stop saying Yechi. In and of itself, this is a very dangerous message for a “mashpia” to be sending to the kehilla.
local boy
how many “friends of Lubavitch” does Melbourne need to lose before someone takes notice and takes action – this “take our Yechi or leave” attitude was certainly not the way of the original Shluchim to Australia
we want moschiach now
the joke of the century.
the maschchissim rabbi’s are writing every day new rules
but thy have no direction. if the yechi sign is there than there is no problem with the kidush asoro beteves.
and gutnik if the yechi is bad why do you support the worst of the taliban in india ? with your mony thy traveled to new york many times to tesify against jews .
all maschchissim are the same thy are all not jews.
because thier way is not jewish way .
call them rabbi or whatever you want .
sorry rabbi telzner you are merachek jews from chsidus YOU are the misnagdim that the alter rebbe was moiser nefesh to spred the chasidus and you are the menagdim to the alter rebb ,the miteler rebbe ,the tzemach tzedek ,the rebbe maharash , the rebbe rashab , the fryerdiker rebbe and the rebbe nosi hador.
and guess what the rabbeim will prevaile and bring the real moshiach not your fake non jewish ways.
we want moschiach now
Chaim Glick
Hey “Apalled” you sound like Chaim Glick who hate Althaus Vorcsheimer and New no matter what they do – perhaps it is you who needs to practice some ahavas yisroel
newmosad
i think that the Rabbi in charge has to decide ( and take responsability for any outcome) if to keep the sign or not
PPl who do not like it, (it has been there for the last 18 years), just build a different place
this way ppl will have a choice where to go as well as new commers. Make from this, an opportunity to grow and bring more pl to Iddishkait with a new moisad
Holy War
The meshchistis in Melbourne lack ahavas yisreol – they hate anyone who does not believe the rebbe is Moshiach – I heard their plane is to push all the non-Meshichists out of the shule and school, so that their children do not have to mix with the “amaratzim” – so much for ahavas yisroel, sounds like sinas chinom to me – then again I guess they believe moshiach is here so there is no longer a need for ahavas yisroel anymore…
antimesira
When the Hijacker cries victim.
Thats whats happening now with the mishichistim. For 15 years they hijacked Chabad, belittle Chassidim, did acts of violence, did many many Mesiras,and took over 770 etc… 15 years of pure terror.
Now they cry foil (not fair) because of a sign?
Let’s hope and pray that very soon not only will the signs come off in Melbourne but also Here in Crown Heights, in the Rebbes Shul 770.
All the mishichistim are is a sign; a symbol, take that away and they are nothing. Don’t believe, just read what they write above.
meadow street chabad
Why doesn’t Chaim Tzvi Groner put uo a yechi sign in his shule, or does beoyfen hamiskabel apply on Meadow Street????
BR downunder
I heard the principal of Bais Rivkah signed the petition
Grow Up!
After reading the story and not knowing the politics down under, i would say thatthe potition and the chevra that are not listening to the rabbonim of ausstralia are making a bigger chilul lubavitch.
weather or not a lubavitcher says yechi or is anti it, it is still something that was done in front of teh rebbe and is a metzious in lubavitch. if you dont like the sign ignore it.
can a group get together and make a big “tadam” that the dont like the way the paint on the walls look? you dont like it ignore it.
machlokes in lubavitch is worse than yechi or not.
too funny
Too funny – the people in the picture above are against the yechi, including Reb Moshe Gordon, who hachnoasas sefer torah the photo is from – Reb Moshe Gordon was one of the first signaturies on the eptition. he is also a founder of the new post smicha program in Melbourne. Go Reb Moshe!
ziknei anash want Yechi sign down
I understand Reb S M Kluwgant who also is in the picture above is strongly aaginst the Yechi sign. He is from ziknei anash in Melbourne and an upstanding and righteous member of the community, Reb SM Kluwgant also I understand signed the petition
Sick of Yechi
Rabbi Groner was a great man and a great Rov, but he was still human and made mistakes.
Allowing the Yechi sign after Gimmul Tammuz was one of his mistakes, it is time corrective action was taken!
Atlana Chabad
I heard in Atlana you are not allowed into the chabad House if you have a Yechi Yamulka
meshichist mosad in melbourne
Hey “newmosad” the meshichists should go to the meshichits mosad at the corner of hotham street and balaclava rd – they have signs there too
an unheeded warning
Adar, 5748:
In the month of Adar, Rabbi Yitzchak Hendel of Montreal, sent the Rebbe a Psak Din, co-signed by other Chassidim there, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe “is presumed to be Moshiach.” The Rebbe turned to his secretary, Rabbi Leibel Groner, and asked who had sent this. Rabbi Groner answered it was from Anash of Montreal, with the authorization of Rabbi Hendel. Thereon the Rebbe asked:
“Based on what did he judge me this way? Are all of his ruling of the same quality as this…?! ”
unheeded warning 2
5749:
During the yechidus of Rabbi Tuvya Peles, a Chabad activist from Israel, the Rebbe, among other things, spoke strongly and sharply of Chassidim in Israel (even mentioning names) who go around in the streets announcing the Lubavitcher Rebbe is King Moshiach. The expression the Rebbe used to describe how he felt about this was:
“When they do things like this they tear me to pieces!”
Rachmana Litzlan!
Unheeded message 3
Mar-Cheshvan, 5752:
On Shabbos Parshas Noach, Mar-Cheshvan 4, 5752, Chassidim started the farbrengen by singing the “Yechi… Melech HaMoshiach…” When they finished singing the Rebbe said:
“This is extremely absurd. Here a song is sung with such words, while I sit here at the table… The truth is that I really should get up and leave!…
”As for why I am not leaving – first of all, whether I do or I don’t, it anyway would not help; and secondly, it would upset the goal of ‘sheves achim gam yachad’ (‘brethren sit even together’) – for if I leave others too will leave, and automatically this opportunity for ‘brethren sit even together’ would be lost. Everyone knows how important this is – as the Rashbi elaborates in the Zohar…”
Melbournian
These were the words of Rabbi Groner to the community in 5756 when someone stole the yechi sign down from the shul. “I’m the moro de’asra. In this shul we say Yechi, if you don’t like it, you can get the h-ll out of here.”
This is not a new controversy about yechi, rather a purely political one. Gutnik was fighting Rabbi Groner for years before yechi. Emmanuel has been fighting Rabbi groner and the executive board before Rabbi Groner passed away as he wants to be in charge. All those people in the petition have their own agenda. The few that did sign because of yechi were fighting Rabbi Groner the day after gimmel tamuz about yechi upon which he told them to keep it to themselves and not tell him what to do (including the principal of BR). To start a whole new petition claiming that yechi is the source of dissention in Melbourne is absolute rubbish and is just unscroupulous people hiding behind their own agendas in the fake cloak of holiness.
For the record to those who don’t know, Rabbi Groner very cleverly kept Yeshiva Centre seperate from Rabbi Chodakov and Merkos, so much so that there were times that the Rebbe gave out substantial money to shluchim yet Rabbi Groner went without. Merkoz would have loved to step in 15 years ago about yechi, but they couldn’t and they knew that they couldn’t. Those crazies that think that they will call Kotlarsky or Krinsky to step in are making a big mistake.
People living in Melbourne for the last 20 years are all aware of the above mentioned. This is common knowledge.
I hope that Rabbi Telsner who only came to Melbourne over the last 3 to 4 years has been made aware of Rabbi Groner’s opinion not just his psak made recently.
I also heard from a witness who teaches in the school that about a year before Rabbi Groner passed away, Nathan Werdiger brought a guest from Eretz yisroel, a person who is the head of one of the biggest zionist organisations. The man met Rabbi Groner in yeshiva shul on Shabbos and asked him how come there’s this wierd sign up in the shul that is ludicrous. Rabbi Groner took his siddur and threw it at him saying, “If you don’t like it go daven somewhere else.”
to: the Rebbe was against yechi
how can someone say the Rebbe was against Yechi???? look at the video of the chasidim singing yechi to the Rebbe and how His face waa nodding the whole time… just watch it! anyway i dont think its even worth fighting over, i dont think the Rebbe would want ppl making things up
the right thing
oh wow such ahavas yisroel by all im sooo impressed by us lubavitchers really standing up to what the rebbe wanted and doing ANYTHING to bring moshiach.
kol hakavod
love you all
Executive of Yeshivah
I heard that the Executive are plotting to get rid of Rabbi Telsner. Apparently they ran a survey recently where all the questions were about the Telsner, and they encouraged mispallelim to air their anger at Telsner…sounds like this is where the problem starts
come on Aussie come on
I think the controversary is the old English v. Aussie cricket rivalry coming out in a different sport – Meshchists (English) vs. Non-Meshichists (Aussies) – “come on Aussie come on” – oi oi oi
facts on the ground
I don’t understand why people are saying that the petition organisers aren’t listning to the Rav? As I have watched it unfold, all they have done is organise the petition and present it to Dayan Telsner who rejected it based on R. Groner’s letter from some years ago – the petitioner’s then suggested the issue be mediated by an independent body – how is that not listning to the Rav?
Hirschel Pekkar
BH. The Rebbe once told me in yechidus, “as you take from the ruchnius from here, you are taking me with you, and as you are taking me with you, you should use me out on good things”.
Everyone agrees that “yechy” – to live, indicates a soul within a body, As The Rebbe said, that “the ruchnius from here, this is ”Me“ – the soul, to ”use me out“ is the function of the body, this means, to learn chassidus, which is called ”the soul of the Torah, the “ME” of The Rebbe, and to use me out on good things, means, to apply the chassidus, by the function of the body. “on good things”, not to make a machlokes. Like The Rebbe said, “sholom kan, hakol kan”. when peace is here, all is here” Sholom is the name of Hashem, and hakol is the Nossi, – the Rebbe, One with Hashem, and this will be revealed with the coming of Moshiach. So what do you want?.
anonymous
I never heard of such a thing taking place in Atlanta. There are a lot of Litvishe and Modern Orthodox in Atlanta.
left chabad
as long as the yechi sign is up the shull will be empty, i will only come back and daven when the sign is down.rabbi telzner please get the sign down asap it does not bring good only fights, the rebbe would have naches if the sign is down. its the rebbes shul not ours
Ad Moisa?
Chabad Houses all around the world keep away from Yechi and anything re Rebbe Moshiach as otherwise they couldn’t get a Minyan. Seems that Telsner doesn’t care that so many are slowly leaving, and Chabad has become a joke.
kol hakovod
Kol hakovod Rabbi Telsner!!!
Dave
Divide and Conquer, I couldn’t have said it better. This story sickens me to my gut. The antis are forcing our hand, acting in a typically tyrannical way. Every once in a while I have doubts and wonder why I am a mishichist. And then stories like these break and I’m reminded of how badly antis turn me off!
Rabbi Telsner mocked up everything!
2-3 years ago when Moshiach men danced in the kolel. R. Telsner got involved in the machloikes of the Hanhola and those who wanted to dance yechi.
Then when they danced in the shule and announced Yechi Rabbi Telsner got involved again and got the gaboyim to throw Moshiach Men out of the shule.
As a result the Moshiach Men have stopped fasting. One of them wants to open up a chazir shop on Carlisle st.
Rabbi Telsner bears responsibility.
If yechi sign is such an important inyan why doesn’t rabbi Telsner say anything about it to the press or even in the Shule.
Why does he send the Mashpiyah of Mesivta to give the Shiyur.
Why doesn’t he announce Yechi like Rabbi Groner A”H did?
Rabbi Telsner don’t be like Chamberlin be like Churchill take a stand and then everyone will start respecting you.
Keep your eyes in your siddur
3 Points
1. The Yechi sign in Yeshivah Shul can only be seen in the shul if you are looking up into the “Veiber Shul”. Keep your eyes on your siddur and you won’t be bothered by it.
2. The sign is an inanimate object- the only way it could be divisive is if it fell off the wall and accidently “divided” ch”v someone’s head from their body.
3. Instead of wasting time worrying about such a ridiculous issue, get out of your house, get on a bus, and go on Movtzoim!
Moishele
This is sadly in line with alot of social activism that we are seeing lately in Anash communities around the world – foreign ideas of a democracy based Yiddishkeit forming the idealogical basis for a campaign of some kind. The resistance to the Tznius campaign in CH was an ugly example of this (regardless of whether the campaign was a good idea or not). What is considered to be a plus in ruchnius is a minus in gashmius, and vice versa. Same thing in a veltishe outlook vs. a Yiddishe outlook.
Judaism is a theocracy! Deal with it, people. Transparency is a virtue for an LLC…
Atlanta BT
Just stay out of Atlanta! Rabbi Yossi has his finger on the pulse – knows what’s wanted and what’s not. He’s doing something right. Whackos can stay in Crown Heights. People are voting with their feet, coming to him rather than the other way.
Ben Chaim
I asked the Rebbe re the sign and I got back an answer.
The answer was that the sign should come down.
I just hope all will obey the Rebbe and the sign will be removed immediately.
Chossid of the Rebbe Mh M
Facts:
1) If you are a Chossid, then you believe every action and how much more so every published and said word of your Rebbe is true, regardless of whether it sits well with you or not, that is part of the bittul of being a chossid, putting yourself aside and taking what your Rebbe says as 100% true.
2) Some people can’t handle this level of bittul
3) Thos people should find another shul to daven in, because as the Rebbe made clear in numerous numerous sichos, he is Moshiach shebedoireinu, if you learnt the sichos you would know this.
4) If you have learnt the sichos and still don’t believe then you aren’t a true chossid
5) If you haven’t learnt the sichos, then you should
fed up in Melbourne
We need to realize that Rabbi Telsners psak that the sign will remain, because his shver Rabbi Groner is going back to the first mistake! Rabbi Groner erred gravely when he allowed the silly sign.I say this with all due respect.He was a choshuve yid but made mistakes.He should have mentioned in his Tzavo’o to rip the sign down.Whatever the case, the shule belongs to the community,not to Rabbi Groner or Rabbi Telsner and as a member of the community here, though I no longer come to Yeshiva,I can clearly tell you that most of us want nothing to do with the Meshichist mess.If anybody reading this can tell the good rabbi that he is wasting good will and wasting mesirus nefesh for a stupid sign that has cost our kehilla members and financial support.
If Rabbi Telsner wants to pick a fight on this I don’t see him lasting very long in Melbourne.A rov must pick his fights with seychel,even if he “wins” with the sign it will mean that he will not be able to fight real halachik issues because he will have used the good will on a silly sign on the wall.
Please, whoever can influence him should!If not he will, in my honest and humble opinion not be able to carry on here
to Atlana Chabad
I Don’t Blame Them
Rabbi Groner ob m
Before Rabbi Groner ob“m passed away this issue came up alwell, when someone took down the Yechi sign. Rabbi Groner Sent a letter the whole community saying that ”since the Yechi sign was put up around 5751/5752 therefore it should stay up, since I am the personaly Shliach of the Rebbe the sign should stay up.
The Sign SHOULD and MUST STAY UP as Rabbi Groner instructed.
May we merit to see moshiach now!!!!!
Milhouse
1. What has Merkos got to do with this? The Yeshivah is not and has never been under Merkos’s authority, so why should it care what Merkos thinks?
2. If Merkos should be consulted for some strange reason, why go to NY when Melbourne has a long-standing representative who was appointed to that position directly by R Hodakov?
3. On the other hand, who appointed R Telsner the rov? MK says R Groner wanted it; so what? The Yeshivah was not his property to give it to whomever he wanted. He did not found the Yeshivah, he was an employee and had no more right than anyone else to appoint his replacement.
4. So who does have that authority? Unfortunately no one. That is the problem and has been the problem all along; there is no membership roll, and no elections, and thus no legitimate authority. No appointed board has the right to decide whether to change a light globe, let alone take down a sign or hire a rov or dayan. Who appointed them? The ghost of Dave Feiglin AH?!
5. Without regard to any of the above, Emanuel made a powerful point when he asked how it is that a Modim Derabonon sign is absolutely forbidden in a Lubavitcher shul, and a Brich Shmeih sign is likewise forbidden, but somehow a Yechi sign is permitted. (Though one could ask about the original psak, why it is that a Sfiras Ho’omer sign and a Tal Umotor sign are allowed, and how they are different from the Modim and Brich Shmeih signs that were vetoed.)
Poshiter Yid in Melbourne.
As you wrote …”Rabbi Groner took his siddur and threw it at him saying, “If you don’t like it go daven somewhere else.”….
This sums it all up.
And we should still listen to this man. He thought the Rebbes Mosod is his own and put his family in charge of us. A Dayan and also 2 more of his children in the Vaad.
THIS IS NOT cHASSIUDUS THIS IS JOBS FOR THE BOYS!.
elki
I’m lost here. Unfortunately, from everything I read and hear the Yechi etc.. machlokes seems out of control right in NY. How, then, is Crown Heights-based Merkos supposed to solve the problem at the other end of the world?
Igros Kodesh
I read that the Igros Kodesh said to take the Yechi sign down.
So why don’t we just simply obey??
Isn’t the Rebbe bigger than Groner and his son in Law??
anon
The response attributed to Rabbi Telsner conveniently omits one important factor. When Rabbi Groner OBM was running the show the negative results that we’ve seen on Asara B’teves were not clear to everyone. While many of us realized then that it would lead to serious problems others saw it as harmless ‘Emunah’. Rabbi Groner decided to leave the status-quo (which even then had to be done after ‘very serious consideration’ as Rabbi Telsner himself states).
However, now that it’s clear to everyone that promoting ‘Yechi’ is a slippery path (if not for you, than for others), it’s time to change course.
It’s not fair to base something with so much potential for mistakes and disasters on Rabbi Groner who is not here to see and judge the current situation.
Respectfully,
To: Igros Kodesh
ask a stupid question get a stupid answer……If you believe the Rebbe can answer you in the igros kodesh, then that means you do believe in yechi!!! Listen to what you people are saying!!!!
Rabbi G said
Rabbi Groner said the sign should not be removed by stealth. He did not say that it could not come down. I suggest people who believe otherwise should read his letter – there was no psak.
the people have spoken
The Yechi sign will come down in end – whether it by agreement, or the folding of the shule – Yeshivah Melbourne cannot survive if it does not accept this reality – the people have spoken
Who r we fooling
The Rebbe told Rabbi Groner “Shliach shel odom Kemoisio Mamash” twice! if any one was /is mekusher to the Rebbe, it was Rabbi groner! the Rebbe gave him the koichos. everyone in melbourne came to him for support, advice, he had a love for every single person n the community, and when he made a ruling it wasn’t just for fun or machloikes! he si the only one in melbourne who cares about everyone. all of sudden you know better?!?? rabbi groner didnt do anything for himself! he gave his heart soul and health for this community, a fact noone can deny!!!
Brains
Removed. Put up. Change.
Leave things the way the were. Its the wise thing to do.
igros kodesh
To: Igros Kodesh wrote:
ask a stupid question get a stupid answer……
HOW DARE FOR YOU TO SAY THE REBBE GIVES STUPID ANSWERS!
SHAME, SHAME ON YOU!!
yOU NEED TO ASK THE rEBBE mECHILLA IN pUBLIC!
Meir from London
IF TELSNER WAS GIVEN HIS JOB BY HIS FATHER IN LAW, ISN’T HE POSSUL TO GIVE A PSAK FOR 2 REASONS.
(Family & Getting a job)
Sad Melbourne Chabadnik
If I had a dollar for every commenter that said “I heard that…” or “I was told that…” I would be a rich man!
All of you who mention names of people in a derogatory way – whatever side they are on – show that you are childish and uninformed.
Once we start treating each other with respect (even if we disagree) then maybe Chabad will be respected again in Melbourne and around the world.
Twisted Logic
“ To: Igros Kodesh wrote:
If you believe the Rebbe can answer you in the igros kodesh, then that means you do believe in yechi!!!”
Whats the connection?
Nevermind
R”L. Look at the depths to which we have fallen – uninformed comments on every side of the fence. Specifically, Mr. To: Igrois Kodesh, I cannot believe that you, as a chosid, would make that comment. There certainly have been nisim veniflaos as a result of answers in the Rebbe’s sforim (not just Igros), and to suggest that the Rebbe is limited in such a way is indicative of a lack of informed opinion on the subject of Rebbe/Chosid.
wake up!!
melbourne wake up!! this is your biggest issue?
your kids are frei-ing out at an alarming rate. boys without beards, no tznius amongst the girls. mixed youth events etc.
what is the problem? tv and internet in the home, loshon hora against rabbonim and lack of koved for piskei halocha. lack of a true desire for chassidishkeit and willing to give up on personal lifestyles!
those making the machlokes cannot boast of children who are shluchim/shluchos or even chassidishe children!
a kehillah must submit themselves to a rov and accept his halocha as binding (merkos too is bound by psak halocha even thought there are those in merkos who may not think so!). maybe then they will have some chassidishe nachas from your children and i”h grandchildren.
RESPECT
It is clear that the Yechi sign causes friction and debate, just look above.
Let us return to a period of no friction, no debate.
Let us take down the Yechi sign, and respect each other, rather than force our views upon other people…this is what we need…RESPECT
YECHI SIGN DOWNUNDER MUST COME DOWN
It is clear from this blog that the Yechi sign is NOT Boeyfen Hamiskabel – therfore THE YECHI SIGN DOWNUNDER MUST COME DOWN
sick of yechi idiocy
Until all these yechi signs are gone, and with them the yechi yarmulkas and pins, I will not step foot into any Lubavitcher “shul” (in my mind closer to “churches”) or support any Lubabitcher institutions. Clean out 770 to start with, and then everywhere else as well.
great stuff
Kol Hakvod to all those who signed the petition for having the vision to draw a line in the sand and refocus Chabad on its maintream – chassidus; kiruv; shlichus; spreading the wellsprings of chabad philosophy etc.
Why Merkos? Who do they think they are?
Respect your Rabbonim!!!
… not boards, organizations, commitees, politicians, baalei battim, mosdos, or corporations…
melb
Telsner is the Dayan. Yeshivah has not appointed a Rov.
the people have spoken
The Yechi sign will come down in end – whether it by agreement, or the folding of the shule – Yeshivah Melbourne cannot survive if it does not accept this reality – the people have spoken
Double Helix
It all seemed so logical, setup a petition, make some noise, get signatures everything changes. Why?
The petition was asking if you want the sign down. Based on what, hergish, halacho, seichel?? It was definitely not a halachic question, so why run around now denigrating the Rov because he didn’t dazzle you with lomdos and halacha. He answered the question in the format it was asked. The petition was also presented to the executive/committee of management, what was the response? Why no backlash directed at the executive. What is the logic in asking the Rov to go a Din Torah or arbitration? What has he done wrong besides disagree with a few people, what issur is being alleged, what wrong needs correcting? Majority consensus supports the Rov, it may be the silent majority but it a majority it is.
The petition lacked credibility with only 120 signatories, which now include many retarctions. 20+% have no affiliation with the shule or moisdos, and we should consider their opinion because…? 30+% don’t consider themselves Anash. Did any of the community leaders, mashpiam, Rabbonim sign. Is this a Chabad anash or a general community debate. Are they significantly attuned with the Lubavitch ethos to have a valid opinion? I would suggest that these same people deride Mivtza Tefillin, Neshek etc, and probably agree with Sam Lipski (baal musaph/baal koreh at the Conservatives) a Chabad sympathiser, who wrote against public Chanukah lightings, something the Rebbe strongly encourages. It’s too confronting, not necessary, do it behind closed doors. Most things the Rebbe asks of us can make us uncomfortable and we didn’t understand the rational initially, but as Chassidim you do what the Rebbe asks/wants. (at least try).
Those behind the petition and those who agitate in whispered conversation should reveal the full agenda. If the sign comes down what’s next? We have already experienced censorship of likutim in shule. Will everything that is put out in shule need vetting by our new age chabad chassidim, who know what is best, which sicha is appropriate, what can be niskabel. We have already experienced a physical assault on people dancing in shule on Friday night. This wasn’t against Yechi per se because it was before the chazzan had started singing, this maniacal display was repeated months later during Hallel. Who is goading a mild mannered peaceful and learned mispallel, albeit with zero appreciation or knowledge of chassidus and darchei chassidus into behaving out of character?
The plethora of comments on this site appear to be generated by the same mind, regurgitating the same old arguments, pushing a few personal hang-ups, someone needs a life something to occupy his time.
This was an ill thought out campaign, naively executed and with a childish response. I didn’t get my way, I’m running to Merkos.
yoda wiseman
melbourne will end up like sydney. broken and fighting. yes sydney fought over a diff issue …. no one cares about yechi in sydney but it was still a fight that broke apart the community …… never to be the same…….. you victorians may regret it one day ….. the bigger they are the harder they fall ….. take action now to make achdus so melb can stand strong in the face of kids going off the derech, tznius, poverty in the community, education etc put that energy into those problems ….
C .Z. is very smart!
I know from a reliable source that the Yechi sign was only approved due to pressure from Chaim Tzvi. The reason Chaim Tzvi wants the Yechi sign in Hotham street as he knows people will leave. And they left- Many to huis Chabad House in Meadow Street-Where there is NO yechi sign!!!!
Chaim Tzvi is smarter than most of us think. It is Rabbi Telsner who is being taken for a ride as soon he want even have a minyan!
Levi
Why do we in Melbourne need this nonsence. Nowhere in Europe or in the states (outside CH) would they tolerate this shtus!
Aussie Kishke
Putting pressure on R’ Kluwgant and R’ Gurewicz to withdraw their names from the petition is exactly the opposite of what the Rebbe meant B’Oifen Himiskabel!!!
It seems the Groner family must continue to rule!
???
The people have spoken…..
What is that?? A threat….
So if they don’t take the sign down, what will you do…..put a horses head in each of the committee members bed?
PLeeeeeease…. grow up and get a life!
Mottel
We read that the Rebbe said through the Igrot to take the sign down. One nutty Moshiachist wrote “The Rebbe gave a stupid answer”!!!
This is a disgusting comment.
This is proof that these people are very sick. Not only are they ruining our community but they have the chutzpah to bad mouth the Rebbe.
That comment should not have been published by the blog master.
Ad Moisa
“The people have spoken…..
What is that?? A threat….”
NO It is not a threat. It just proves what the Rebbe said. If even one person feels uncomfortasble then don’t! Here we have the vast majority, (although not the loud mouths with their chutzpah!)
————————
As most of the fellows who want the Yechi sign are much poorer than the ones who don’t want it- The question arises! Are they poor because of the sign? or Do they want the sign as they are poor and bitter?
[Comments appreciated!]
Mendel the Melbourne Cohen
When Yossel first tried to open his Chabad house Rabbi Groner wrote to the Rebbe to ask the Rebbe as Head Shaliach not to allow it. The Rebbe ignored Rabbi Groner and gave Yossel his Brocha. So who do we follow Groner or the Rebbe.
do your maths Double Helix
“Double Helix” – have you counted how many seats there are in Yeshivah – 230 maybe? have you counted how many of those seats do not have names on them (i.e. no one wants them because people have left due to lack of leadership) 50 maybe? then on this basis 120 people who signed the petiton represent a significant majority of members – 120/180 = 66.67% = beofyen hamiskabel
conspiracy?? don-t think so
Why the conspiracy theories – can’t people want the sign down without a larger agenda?
Chani
To Ad Moisa
I never thouight about it, but you are 100% right!!
It is poverty that brings them to become Meshiachistim.
It is well known in all religions that poverty breeds extremism.
Annon
Why doesn’t CZ put a sign up in Meadow street?
Purim
“….It is well known in all religions that poverty breeds extremism…..”
So don’t we send them to Gaza??
Double Helix
Of the people that signed most, including the initiators were not seat holders(in Yeshivah Shule). B’ofen Hamiskable by defintion assumes that we agree in principal but disgree only in how we market the idea.
Are we turning away people?!
I spoke to a few non lubavitchers in Melbourne and they say they try never to set foot in Yeshiva because of the Yechi sign.
A few people said if there were no yechi sign hanging in Yeshiva and it was a few “escentric” people screaming yechi it would not bother them.
However having a yechi sign in a beis Medrash is a policy statement uncomprehendible to them.
One cconfided me that he has rarely walked into yeshiva since the sign went up.
And the very few times he went into yeshiva because of a simcha or event. He felt very uncomftorable and tried to avoid eye contact with the Yechi sign.
Yechi sign come down: Yechi anounced
Pishora: Yechi sign taken down as a change of policy.
Tolerance of others saying Yechi after each minyan. “Live and Let Live” “Agree to disagree”.
If any outsider comes in you could tell him that Yechi is the opinion of a minor yechi group not the shule policy(he will believe you since he won’t hear too many people announcing or declaring yechi and he won’t see a yechi sign encouariging Yechi.)
Who Seed Watt
Moishele darling:
Judiasm is NOT a theoracy. Read your Shulchan Orach. Many issues are dvar reshus and the halacha mandates certain communal affairs follow “k’rotzon rov ha’kahal”. That’s rov as in “Majority” not The Rov!! We appoint rabonim to explain and educate on the issues of halacha, not to impose their own PERSONAL opinions. A good Rov can distinguish between his own feelings, and Das Torah. He opines in accordance with the latter even when against the former. On several occasions I asked shailos of Rabbi Dworkin A”H regarding customary behaviors in 770. In most cases he said things should be done as most people agreed, and that the issue was not dictated either way by halacha.
to double helix - check your facts
Double Helix…check your facts re Seaty ownership of those behind the petition…i think you may have erred. as for theose who want to keep the sign, most are freeloaders who have never paid for a seat, let alone pay school fees or gan yisroel camp and or the like, rather they live off the system…be honest
cant take it
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh this is horrible all these arguments about a silly sign just tear it down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!