Pesach Chumros: Are Eggplants Chometz?
Books with pages spread wide open, perched on balcony railings and shedding imaginary crumbs of not-kosher-for Passover food. Shelves covered in new paper, and masses of aluminum foil on kitchen counters and the stovetop. Signs on doors warning “Do not bring in hametz” – referring to leavened products – with several exclamation marks. All of these were signs in my childhood that Passover was approaching. Above all I remember the near-hysteria that overtook the women and girls in the house, which mounted as the holiday grew nearer while they pursued to the death every stain and crumb.
I watched my father and the man across the way standing balcony to balcony on the morning of Passover eve to scrutinize in the sunlight the leaves of lettuce that had previously sailed in the bathtub. As part of this essential activity, the two men – whose Passover chores consisted entirely of such washing of heads of lettuce, until the hametz inspection on the morning before the holiday began – made sure there was not the slightest suspicion of worms or other sorts of vermin on the leaves that were destined to grace the seder table as bitter herbs. When the examination was concluded to their satisfaction, they took clothespins and hung the leaves out to dry on the clotheslines.
In truly strict homes, I heard from friends, they began the preparation for Passover on the day after Purim, which falls a month earlier. There they knelt on the floor and scrubbed every single tile with brushes and kerosene. In other households they took a toothpick dipped in rubbing alcohol and cleaned pot handles and faucet cracks with it. The contents of closets were laundered well in advance and the clothes were hung out on lines, with pockets turned inside out, for days on end. There were homes where they ate nothing but potatoes and eggs for some weeks.
Chabad Hasidim, Hasidim affiliated with the Eda Haredit, and especially the Toldot Aharon Hasidic sect are the most scrupulous of all. Shmuel Pappenheim, a former spokesman for the Eda Haredit, explains just how far the limits of strictness reach: “At Passover,” he says, “it is customary not to visit and not to host people, except for close family members, of course, because no one will eat at anyone else’s home.”
While Hasidim avoid eating “soaked” matza – i.e., matza that has come into contact with water – among the Lithuanians (non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox Jews ) this stricture does not exist.
“You don’t want to insult anyone,” explains a Chabad Hasid, who prefers not to be identified by name. “It’s uncomfortable if the host offers you a cucumber, for example, and you don’t eat it because its seeds resemble grains of wheat.”
In Chabad circles, it is absolutely forbidden even to mention bread or bread products aloud during Passover. Prof. Shaul Stampfer, a lecturer in the history of the Jewish people at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, says that observance of customs related to preparing for and keeping Passover is an opportunity to express devotion and piousness in contemporary life, when observing religious commandments has otherwise become relatively easy.
“There was a time that it was impossible [in the Diaspora] to obtain kosher wine or kosher-slaughtered meat. Today everything is prepared, in packages at the supermarket. Proscriptions bring back something of the difficulty of observing commandments. It’s possible to ridicule them, but in principle it’s a human and emotional thing of the first degree,” says Stampfer.
No eggplant
Often the objective of following the Passover rules observed by Hasidim is not clear even to them. Sometimes they avoid various kinds of foods, only because in the past their community did so. “In Russia [where Chabad Hasidism began], there were no eggplants,” says the man from Chabad, “and therefore at Passover, Chabadniks don’t eat eggplant.”
The Vizhnitz and Satmar Hasidic sects originated in Hungary, where frozen fish was imported in winter. Only the heads of the fish were not frozen, because they were smeared with rubbing alcohol. The alcohol is considered hametz and therefore to this day these Hasids avoid eating fish on Passover.
In Chabad they don’t eat radishes. The reason: The third Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson [this was also the name of the seventh, and last, Rebbe], did not eat them during Passover. As a rule, Hasidim do not eat fruit or vegetables on the holiday that have not been peeled, for fear that hametz has adhered to the peel, and customarily remove the peel even from tomatoes. For the same reason, they also will not eat berries, dates and the like. The very strict avoid eating any vegetables or fruit, apart from potatoes.
The disciples of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe noticed that he did not use a knife on Passover, and therefore a minority of them they have also stopped using knives, though they do not understand the reason. On seder night it is customary to eat from glass dishes, but in Chabad they allow the use of porcelain with a gold rim. Why? Because at seders conducted by the Rebbe, the food was served on white china decorated in gold.
In Toldot Aharon, the rule on Passover is that only what people have seen themselves is acceptable. That is, the kashrut of anything they themselves have not closely supervised, anything in the preparation of which they were not involved, cannot be trusted. Therefore they use only new, transparent glass dishes, according to Pappenheim, a member of the sect. Plastic or paper disposable dishes, cardboard egg cartons and metal pots and pans do not enter the Toldot Aharon kosher-for-Passover kitchen. A crumb of hametz might infiltrate the plastics at the factory or the recycled paper on the production line. Contrary to the Lithuanian custom, in Toldot Aharon, they do not immerse anything from the everyday kitchen cupboard in boiling water to kosher it for the holiday. In this Jerusalemite sect, they do not wash dishes at all during Passover and they pile up until the holiday is over.
The dining table at which Toldot Aharon adherents ate hametz during the rest of the year gets covered in several layers of paper, each one separated from the next by aluminum foil. The ultra-strict than lay sheets of plywood on the table. Over all this a white tablecloth is spread. There are those who take care to cover all the kitchen walls in aluminum foil to wrap it as well around doorknobs that were touched by hands that came in contact with hametz. These circles do not use commercially prepared spices, salt and sugar, sweets, cakes, cookies or alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages. And instead of oil, they use chicken or goose fat they have rendered themselves.
“This means that every omelet in the morning is considered to be meat,” says Pappenheim, which removes dairy foods, too, from the menu. Anyone who can, buys unpasteurized milk products from a dairy in advance, at least for the children. At Kfar Chabad, this is not a problem because it has a dairy barn; in Jerusalem there are families that make their living by selling these products in their homes every year. For their part, Chabadniks also prefer to drink homemade wines.
During the holiday itself no allowances are made for hametz: Every microscopic crumb of leavened food brings with it a heavenly death sentence. Hasidim do not even trust the Mekorot Water Co.’s pipes – maybe an insidious crumb of pita has found its way into them – and prepare water for drinking and cooking in advance for the whole holiday in a special tank. They put a kind of white sock over the faucet to filter out any hametz that may have infiltrated the pipes. In Chabad there is a custom of boiling all sugar in water before Passover and then straining it, so they can use the sugar syrup for sweetening throughout the holiday.
Some of the ultra-Orthodox of Jerusalem prefer to collect honey from a beehive or to buy sugarcane and grate it. They also buy rock salt from the Dead Sea and grate it, black peppercorns direct from a farmer, and also ginger for the haroset (the mixture used at the seder that represents the mortar used by the Jewish slaves in Egypt ). Also in Chabad, they cook meat and fish dishes for the week-long holiday in advance.
18 minute cycles
In Toldot Aharon they do not eat fish at all because cleaning the fish properly for the holiday is considered problematic. Eggs are thoroughly washed before Passover lest a crumb of the hen’s fodder stick to the shells. Commercial products do not enter the home during Passover. Only shmura matza is eaten – that is, matza that has been under constant supervision from the grain-harvesting phase onwards, to ensure that the wheat and flour do not come in contact with water, which might precipitate fermentation. Shmura matza is handmade and expensive. The very strict eat matza they have baked themselves. To that end, in Chabad, families rent a bakery for half a day and the members of the family come to work and to supervise the bakers. In other circles “matza groups” are organized, with a number of people coming to supervise the baking.
At the Toldot Aharon bakery in Jerusalem they work in a cycle of 18 minutes, the time after which the sages determined that dough is considered to be leavened. Therefore they measure the time from the moment they pour the water into the flour, and ensure that the entire baking process is finished in no more than 18 minutes. Every two matzas are pushed into the baking oven with the help of a new stick, usually from a broom. This means that hundreds of thousands of broomsticks are purchased for one-time use. At the end of each cycle, the work is stopped and the bakers scrub their hands with soap, and remove any flour or bits of dough that have remained under their fingernails that could turn into hametz – before the whole process begins again. The risks that accompany the baking and eating of matza keep Hasidim awake nights.
“The matza might crumble and the crumbs, heaven forbid, might land on a plate with soup or salad dressing,” says one man from Chabad. “Therefore, our custom is for everyone present [at every Pesach meal] to receive a bag with matza in it and he eats it from inside the bag. Only after the table is cleaned of crumbs do we go on to eat the rest of the food.”
Amazingly enough, many Hasidim refrain from eating matza on Passover in general, except for the olive-sized piece as mentioned in the Haggadah on the first night.
With so many strictures and prohibitions, there is in effect nothing to eat. The Skverer Rebbe, of Monsey, New York, customarily eats only eggs on the holiday. “One egg as a matza, second as a potato and so on,” relates Pappenheim. According to him, the most meticulous Hasidim finish the holiday with heartburn just from the difficult diet they have followed. For children this not easy.
Leizer Peles remembers that during Passover, members of his community ate mashed potatoes and meat, meat and mashed potatoes, every day for lunch and dinner. For breakfast there was something that was called cake but was in fact a kind of wet and nearly inedible mush.
“Everything is hametz. A matza has been forgotten for a moment on the table? Hametz! Haroset with wine in korekh [the so-called ”Hillel sandwich“ of matza, bitter herbs and haroset eaten during the seder]? Hametz! Very strictly kosher for Passover Coca-Cola certified by Rabbi Landau himself? Hametz! The neighbors’ food? Hametz!!! Unfortunately I was destined to be born during the intermediate days of Passover, so I could forget about a real birthday cake,” says Peles.
Milhouse
“In Russia [where Chabad Hasidism began], there were no eggplants,” says the man from Chabad, “and therefore at Passover, Chabadniks don’t eat eggplant.”
What a load of rubbish. There were certainly eggplants in Russia, and since when do Lubavitchers not eat them on Pesach?
Oy Vey
Is this a Purim article?
lubavitcher shaliach
guess what millhouse alot of lubavitcher families dotn eat eggplants… and i heared of alot who dont eat tomatoes or cucumbers either! everyone with there own chumros!!!
Sam
I dont eat carrots b/c my great grandfather from my fathers side one year was not able to get carrots and had to eat celery instead…rks bls
chayaf
I think this is why some very charedi or chabad kids go away from Torah. Do you think this is what G-d really wants? Some families have lost all sense of enjoying the yom tov,being m’sameach, and not starving. Keeping pesach like this is not pesach. This is another religion, extreme, intolerant, deathly afraid of a punishing, vengeful, wrathful G-d. ANyone that would grow up in such a house would leave yiddishkeit, and why not? Who wants to keep Torah like this. There is also a fine line, keeping chumros, and being proud of not eating processed foods, but this is absolutely ridiculous, and not praise worthy at all.
Loving Pesach chumras
Why not publish some op-eds from people who are happy with Yiddishkeit and love to serve the Aibishter b’hiddur?!
forbidden speech?
“In Chabad circles, it is absolutely forbidden even to mention bread or bread products aloud during Passover.” Has the author heard of “Hai Lchma Anya” or “hamotzi lechem min ha’aretz”?
DaasTorah
There are many ridiculous chumras that divide yiddishkeit and are not required by the Torah at all. Kitnoiys is one of them. Where does the Torah say not to eat corn on Pesach? It’s shtus!
forbidden speech #2
Or “Chametz umatza?” from the Mah Nishtana! Such total and utter lies. There is no such “Lubavitch minhag” or Jewish minhag for that matter.
so proud
yes we have these chumros, and i am proud to be a lubavitcher.
to number 5:
the last time i checked, there were many more kids leaving the more lenient homes than the stingient homews. in fact, the modern orthodox have the largest number leaving their fold.
regarding the god you so hate, i am sorry to brake this to you: hashem, in his loving kindness bestowed upon us hundreds of mitzvos, thousands of halochos, and granted the tzaddikim the authority to sancify many more minhogim. you may not like this yiddishkeit, but this is the way the rebbe, as well as all the rabbeyim, showed us.
i am lucky to be a strict chabbad chossid.
Chosid
No amount of foil is going to make a tv kosher lpesach.
for real
there is a difference between pesach and OCD
Milhouse
#7 and #9, you are wrong, there is indeed such a minhag, certainly in Lubavitch if not in the rest of the world. On Pesach one does not say the word that has the same letters as “beard” but in a different order; instead one says “chometz”. As in, “the prisoner receieved a slice of chometz and a cup of water”, or “the people are rioting for chometz”. Some great chassidim even avoided the past tense of the verb “breed” (or in Yiddish, the word for “broad”), because it sounds like the chometzdike word.
Of course the nusach of brochos doesn’t change, and nor does the text of the Torah, but what do you think that proves? In Torah we say the word for a dovor acher, but in speech we avoid it. And even the Torah, when it has to tell us that something is not tohor it uses no euphemisms, but when it doesn’t have to do that it says “lo tehora”.
to #9
First of all learn how to read – #5 never said that he hates G-d.
Second, learn how to spell – “brakes” are on cars
Third – try to be a little religious – the norm is to spell G-d with a capital G
Fourth if you are such a strict chossid, how come you can’t spell “Chabad” (it’s not chabbad)
Fifth, I doubt very much if your “checking” has any value at all. Are you a Sociologist?
While it is true that we generally do not question Pesach “Chumros”,
SOME of this is appears to be just another example of where elements of taliban orthodoxy are headed – irrational one-upmanship.
(I’m better, holier than you because I … etc. I won’t eat in YOUR house because … ( which is really just an implication that you do not keep kosher, in general, or that you are not frum enough for someone of my holy stature etc. You’re not a REAL Lubavitcher because …)
If you want to sit in your house and just eat AIR, or eat out of a bag – fine. Just don’t try to boast and sell it as “Frum”. (FRUM = Fiil Rishus Veinig Mitzvos)
BTW, I am also proud to keep Chabad Pesach Minhagim, but, to be honest, some of these “minhagim” are just anecdotal and everyone knows it.
We just tolerate it for a week. Also most of these customs were based on food preparation at the time ( in Russia, no less – not exactly a bastion of cleanliness)
Milhouse
#3, the truth is that on Pesach there is no real “Lubavitcher minhag” on a lot of things, because there is a real Lubavitcher minhag not to mix, so we don’t really know what our neighbor is eating. Someone once asked the Rebbe whether it was really a Lubavitcher minhag not to have milchigs on Pesach, and the Rebbe said that if so he’d never heard of it! All any of us can say is what we saw in our own families; my family is Lubavitch since the Alter Rebbe’s days, and we eat eggplant, tomatoes, cucumbers, squash, etc. (peeled, of course).
But in any event, it is nonsense to say that they didn’t have eggplants in Russia. It may well be that they were not yet in season at Pesach time, especially if it was early (that is why our ancestors started using chrein for moror instead of lettuce); or maybe they were just coming in and were expensive. But when it is in season eggplant is a staple of Russian cooking!
toshav haschuna
Why did the editorial staff of your web-site deem it proper and necessary to publish this article? Your answer to this question would shed far more light than does a snide article, sanctioned by the editorial staff of an anti-Jewish newspaper, about a hallowed Jewish custom.
For those poor souls who grew to hate the moshihu mishigoss/avodas perech they had to suffer in their parental home – see a shrink, get over it and grow up. Your struggles or failures to thrive are your own affair. On the other hand if you prefer, you are free (b’nei chorin) to devote your life to whining about mommy and totty. It may not pay much but it’s a living.
abe montreal
can we cook gebroktz (MATZAH BALL ) on Friday and eat them on acharon shel pesach (Shabbes )???
i heard Harav Aurbauch aloud in Israel to cook KITNIOT on friday to eat them on shabbos (where in israel is no more pesach)
Common questions that always get asked
“a real Lubavitcher minhag not to mix” Although this may be a “common” practice, Where is this actually written?
Other questions that my kids always ask:
Why can’t I mix Matzah and milk? The Rebbe Rashab mixed Matzah with “Shemurah” milk (“Shemurah” probably, but not definitively meaning “whole” milk i.e. milk w/o water added)
Why can’t we put avocado on Matzah?
Why no lettuce in the salad? We eat it and even put it on the Matzah for Koreich?
(same argument for peeling – we don’t peel the lettuce)
What’s wrong with spices? (cinnamon and ginger etc) They used it for Charoset and it says so in Shulchan Aruch?
Why no vinegar? The Alter Rebbe used vinegar. It says in the hagaddah salt water or chometz (vinegar)
Why not garlic? http://www.chabadtalk.com/f… (some actually permit garlic)
Why not sugar? The Alter Rebbe used to make nut brittle. They used to pour it on boards and leave it in
the sun to dry ( this implies that they used sugar) (Sefer HaSichos)
Why boil sugar. (Mevatel issur lechatchilah? C.f. ARSA)
Why not Chocolate? We heard that the Rebbe had Shmerling’s in the house
Same for Milk
How come they never make Chabad KFP potato starch (I believe Landa does make it)
Why cottenseed oil. Don’t some say this is kitniyos? (Same for peanut oil)
Why not qinua? R. Moshe paskened that it is Asur to add to the list of kitniyos
Milhouse
#17, what comparison do you see between kitniyos and gebrokts? Nobody has ever suggested that kitniyos are chometz; we are explicitly allowed to own kitniyos on Pesach and have hano’oh from them. For instance we can light lamps with kitniyos oil, even on the seder table. And if we have a sefardi guest we can cook kitniyos for him. The only thing we are not allowed to do with kitniyos is eat them ourselves. So it makes perfect sense that on Friday, if we have made an eruv tavshilin, we may cook kitniyos for any hypothetical Sefardi guest that might perhaps show up 10 minutes before licht benchen, and if any is left over we may eat it on Shabbos (in EY, where it is no longer Pesach).
Gebrokts is completely different. We don’t eat gebrokts because of a chashash chometz; so how can we possess it on Friday? True, once the 8th day has arrived we no longer have this chashash, for reasons explained by the Rebbe. But right now we are still in the 7 days of Pesach, and we do have it.
Milhouse
1. “a real Lubavitcher minhag not to mix” Although this may be a “common” practice, Where is this actually written?
It doesn’t have to be written anywhere. NOBODY disputes that this is the official minhag of Lubavitch and almost all chassidim. It’s probably written somewhere too, but being written is not the sine qua non of an official minhag.
2. Why can’t I mix Matzah and milk? The Rebbe Rashab mixed Matzah with “Shemurah” milk (“Shemurah” probably, but not definitively meaning “whole” milk i.e. milk w/o water added)
I don’t know about the Rebbe and milk, but the Rebbe Rashab had shmura wine, and he did mix it with matzah. Shmura milk probably doesn’t exist, unless you have your own cow. Commercial milk is GUARANTEED to contain water.
3. Why can’t we put avocado on Matzah?
Who said you can’t? The Alter Rebbe says EXPLICITLY that there is no problem of gebrokts with mei peiros. Since this teshuvah is the only mokor and the only reason why we don’t eat gebrokts, anything it explicitly permits is of course permitted.
4. Why no lettuce in the salad? We eat it and even put it on the Matzah for Koreich?
We don’t have a choice at the seder. Just as even those (such as Reb Itche der Masmid) who don’t eat matzah all Pesach do eat it at the seder, because they have no choice, so we also eat lettuce at the seder but not otherwise.
5. (same argument for peeling – we don’t peel the lettuce)
We don’t peel the lettuce because it’s impossible. If it were possible we would do it.
6. What’s wrong with spices? (cinnamon and ginger etc) They used it for Charoset and it says so in Shulchan Aruch?
They come from afar, so who knows what they put in it? Nowadays of course there are hechsherim, so we do know, but this falls under our general reluctance to rely on hechsherim when we can do without.
7. Why no vinegar? The Alter Rebbe used vinegar. It says in the hagaddah salt water or chometz (vinegar)
Sorry, I’ve never heard of this chumra.
8. Why not garlic? http://www.chabadtalk.com/f… (some actually permit garlic)
It’s a regional thing. There’s no official Lubavitch minhag on it, but in many places the local minhag was not eat garlic for a number of reasons. This is recorded in the Pri Megodim and the Mogen Avrohom. But in many places they did eat it.
One reason could be from the fact that there are growths on wheat which are chometz, and the wheat has to be checked before Pesach to remove them. These growths are called in Yiddish “knoblach”, presumably because their shape is reminiscent of garlic cloves. It’s obvious how this would lead to a minhag not to eat knobble.
9. Why not sugar? The Alter Rebbe used to make nut brittle. They used to pour it on boards and leave it in
the sun to dry ( this implies that they used sugar) (Sefer HaSichos)
We do eat sugar, if it’s boiled and filtered before Pesach.
10. Why boil sugar. (Mevatel issur lechatchilah? C.f. ARSA)
Not a problem. The bittul happens before it becomes ossur, so it’s 100% muttar to be mevatel it.
11. Why not Chocolate? We heard that the Rebbe had Shmerling’s in the house. Same for Milk
It’s a manufactured product, and we don’t use any manufactured product that we can live without. If you have determined that for you chocolate is hechrochios and not moisros, as the Alter Rebbe determined about sugar, then go ahead and use it. But for most of us it’s moisros. As for milk, there is no Lubavitcher minhag not to use it. The Rebbe said he had never heard of such a minhag, and that’s good enough for me.
12. How come they never make Chabad KFP potato starch (I believe Landa does make it)
As above: it would be a manufactured product, and we avoid these as much as possible. Those who consider it a necessity have many brands with good hechsherim to buy; there’s no need for a Chabad brand.
13. Why cottenseed oil. Don’t some say this is kitniyos? (Same for peanut oil)
Cotton is a tree; therefore it can’t be kitniyos. Those who say that it is are relying on a mishneh in Kilayim that implies that cotton counts as a plant rather than a tree. Peanuts are kitniyos.
14. Why not qinua? R. Moshe paskened that it is Asur to add to the list of kitniyos
With all respect for R Moshe, lo mipiv onu chayim. He is not our posek, and we don’t follow him on this as on almost anything else. It seems never to have occurred to him that if the list of kitniyos were really frozen as of the 13th century or whenever, then corn would be permitted! And yet it is clearly forbidden. QED. Quinoa is no different from buckwheat, which is definitely kitniyos. I don’t see grounds to permit it.
Milhouse
The important thing to remember with all these chumros is that that’s all they are: extra chumros to make our observance special. Don’t drive yourself too crazy with them. Remember that simchas yomtov is a mitzvah de’oraisa, and if not having lettuce seriously interferes with that, then go ahead and have some. Wash it carefully, while check it for insects you can look for chometz too, and then enjoy it, and don’t feel guilty.
Milhouse
That should, of course, be “while checking it”.
abe montreal
to #20
chabad.org allows Quinoa?
abe montreal
to # 17
where does it say that you cannot have gebroktz on pesach
#1 the Shulchan A permits it as you are saying about kitniyot
#2 there is a maaseh with the Firdiker Rebbe that somebody ask him if you can own the square pesach during pesach? and he replied him for sure your are allowed Chas Vishalom to passel All the yden thath eat it
so the same argument we could (AND should ) say it about gebroks (not to eat it but to own it)!!
#20
Hi Milhouse
Thank you for your answers. However, the issue is not really the answers, but that these questions come up every year and yet people refrain from these things, despite the answers.
My two cents:
1. “It doesn’t have to be written anywhere. NOBODY disputes that this is the official minhag of Lubavitch and almost all chassidim. It’s probably written somewhere too, but being written is not the sine qua non of an official minhag”
Sorry, but this is pure baloney!
If it is not written somewhere it is pure conjecture even if the whole world does it. (And it is possibly Am Aratzos)
We COULD possibly rely on “puk chazi ma amar debar”( go and see what everyone does“ but this is sketchy. However, as a support for your theory, although ”Lo raeenu aino rayah“, Shach in Hilchos Shechita does say that it is a proof regarding Minhag). However, the fact that people do something does not automatically make it an ”official Minhag“ and certainly not an Official Chabad Minhag
12. ”there’s no need for a Chabad brand“. Sorry but using your ”It doesn’t have to be written anywhere“ reasoning, the “official minhag” of Lubavitch (that I have seen) is not to use any product on Pesach (if at all) that does not have a Chabad hechsher
13. Minchas Yitzchok (III:138:2) suggests that cottonseed oil is kitnios, but in a subsequent teshuvah (IV:114:3) he reconsiders this position (see also Mikra’ai Kodesh, Pesach II:60:2); in the United States cottonseed oil is generally not considered to be kitnios but in Eretz Yisroel there are those who refrain from using it. (From OU site)
14. Sorry, but this ”lo mipiv onu chayim“ is again baloney. In the absence of a psak from a consensus of Chabad Rabbonim, we must follow daas Torah of Gedolei Yisroel. The Rebbe sent people to R’ Moshe to follow his advice and in many cases accepted his psak.
Regarding: ”as of the 13th century or whenever” – this is not relevant to the topic, it is one of introducing new chumros. We ourselves have a maaseh Rav from the Alter Rebbe ,in that he permitted potatoes where others forbade it, despite its physical properties. (ain can mekomo lahaarich and BTW I don’t like qinua)
Gut Mo’ed
questions
Retraction:
“there’s no need for a Chabad brand”
Milhouse, You are right, and a proof of this is that we use salt etc without a Chabad hechsher. I think this all depends on the level of processing involved and the type of food.
This goes back to my original post of questions (de feer kashios).
Question: How come you are so strict with other foods, yet you have coffee, tea etc. Don’t these involve extensive processing?
Regards
to millhouse
comment #11 the rebbe never had chocolate on pesach, cottage cgeese and sour cream yes but not chocolate, as per rabbi sb gansburg
Milhouse
#24, Your comment is so garbled that it’s impossible to make much sense of it. Next time please try writing in English, not in French or Quebecois or whatever that is. However, if you want to know where it is written that we should not eat gebrokts, it’s in the Alter Rebbe’s ShuT #6. And since it’s a chashash chometz, of course we shouldn’t own it, just as we shouldn’t eat it. I have no idea what you mean by a “square pesach”.
#25, Minhogim are by definition not written down until long after they’re established. The primary source for minhogim is not writing but practise. Not everything that you see around you is a genuine minhog, but SOME of the things you see are, and it’s usually obvious which is which. That chassidim don’t mix is so well known that it doesn’t need a source; hamefursomos einom tzrichim ra’ayoh. So is the minhog to peel everything that can be peeled. Surely you don’t dispute that, or demand a written source.
Whereas it’s obvious that there is no minhog to only use a Chabad rov’s hechsher, since there was no such thing until recently, and why should a Chabad rov be any better than another chassidisher rov? The main thing is that you know whoever is giving the hechsher is a yerei shomayim, and is applying the standards you use yourself, or as close as possible.
People’s reluctance to “brok” even with pure mei peiros, avocado, etc., needs no complicated explanation; it’s obvious how such a thing could have developed purely from amhoratzus, and that’s the simplest explanation. All you need to know to dismiss it is that the only reason we avoid gebrokts in the first place is the Alter Rebbe’s tshuvah, and in that very tshuvah he explicitly permits matzoh with mei peiros, so on what basis could anyone possibly forbid it?
As for coffee, tea, etc., who says we use these either? Again, it depends on how much you need them. If for you they are hechrochios, then use them gezunterheit, since it’s difficult to make them at home. But recognise that that is a compromise on the standard, not a built-in exception that requires an explanation for mah nishtana. (The same applies to wine, matzah, oil, and the other few products that most people do buy; they’re necessities that most people can’t make at home.)
Milhouse
#27, what have I got to do with comment #11? And what did I OR #11 have to say about chocolate? Why are you addressing this to me, or to #11, which is about TV?
Milhouse
#25, I forgot to address your point about R Moshe. The fact is that we never follow his psokim. We don’t drink commercial milk, which he paskened has a din of cholov yisroel. We don’t have mechitzos that you can see over. I can’t think of a single psak of his that we DO follow. Lo mipiv onu chayim.
And in this case we have clear proof that he is wrong, since corn was no more known in the 13th century (or whenever gezeras kitniyos originated) than quinoa or peanuts; if the list was frozen at that time, then how can corn (aka “terkishe veitz”) be ossur? I can only guess that he was unaware of this. The fact that corn is kitniyos destroys the entire premise that the list is frozen in the 13th century, so on what basis can you permit quinoa.
About potatoes, where did you get this story about the Alter Rebbe? As far as I know no posek has ever forbidden potatoes. It’s just an old rumor.
#28 Milhouse
In the context of Chabad Minhogim there has always been a sort of murkiness
We have the Rebbe’s sefer HaMinhagim but even in that there is this “Minhag Beis HaRav” business that one supposedly should not keep but many keep anyway.
In the later years there have been tens (hundreds?) of minhagim that have changed from the official “version”. In fact in the new Shulchan Aruch, there are annotations that state how the Rebbe practiced, often differently from what we thought was the minhag. Even on Shabbos HaGadol, the sefer Haftoros changed the minhag based on a “Kach nohag Rabbeinu”. It seems that nowadays, everyone is an “expert” on what the Rebbe did or how he acted ( with no actual reference or source to back them up. Ein l’davar sof)
So I therefore disagree with your statement:
“Not everything that you see around you is a genuine minhog, but SOME of the things you see are, and it’s usually obvious which is which”
The issue here is what defines a genuine Chabad Minhag. We do a lot of things because of a “herd” mentality or because we assume that that was practiced by the Rebbes.
However, in reality, just because something is done by a majority, even for many years, does not make it a “minhag” unless it is endorsed somewhere.
Note that we’re not talking about someone’s personal custom or family’s custom. But I am pretty confident that a lot of our so-called minhagim are carry-overs from other Chassidim (someone actually printed a sefer comparing the minhagim between chassidim)
The issue here is reliability. I have heard many times “The Rebbe did this or that etc” only to have someone else tell me that what I heard was baloney: “The Rebbe NEVER did this or that”. And we know that the Rebbe mixed it up, sometimes doing it one way and sometimes another – like when to pour the Kos shel Eliyahu etc.
I peel the vegetables because I PRESUME that the vegetables were peeled in the Rebbe’s house. I never saw anywhere that this is, in fact, a Chabad custom. And the truth is that there are many customs that are “around” that I never heard of, but who am I?
The question is, if it is so important, why is it not printed in the sefer HaMinhagim? And if the Rebbe left it out, it must not be that critical to our Avodah.
I still do it because that is what everyone does and it has some minute logic (since there could, possibly, be some molecules of leavening on the peel) but , at the end of the day, who knows for certain?
Rashba that says we should not dismiss even the seemingly silly and eccentric customs that are passed down from generation to generation through the “Babbas”, or old women.
At the same time some “minhagim” are shtus and even against halacha (even if practiced for many years and by many big chassidim)
I’m sure you know the famous vort: Minhag has the same letters as Gehinnom
Milhouse
#31 You have it backwards. Minhogim do not originate in books. That which Lubavitcher chassidim have done midorei doros is minhag Lubavitch. I’m not talking about those who came down with the last rain, and have no tradition of Lubavitcher minhogim, I’m talking about those who know what was done 100 years ago, in Lubavitch and in Dockshitz and Beshenkovich and Chaslavich and Paritch, etc. Peeling and not mixing are of course common to all chassidim, so the fact that the old Lubavitch famlies all do likewise just reinforces that they are minhag Lubavitch as well.
“Minhag oisios gehinnom” is from the Tzemach Tzedek, regarding the “minhag” of showing some hair on the edges. (Agav, Reb Moshe endorses this “minhag”; yet another example of how lo mipiv onu chayim.) “Minhag shtus” can be found in Tosfos Bovo Basro 2a.
Peeling
Milhouse,
Other than milk which was already permitted by the Pri Chodosh because of Mirtas, you are ignoring the entire body of hilchos Ishot and Geirus that R’ Moshe paskined on and that the Rebbe SENT people to for psak dinim. Thus in many situations we do indeed rely on his rulings:
Regarding the Mechitzah, you are also wrong in theory albeit correct as to the actual height amount. R’ Moshe ruled that the Mechitzah is not just for separation (unlike R. Soleveichik), supporting the height concept. (I would also venture to say that many do not celebrate Thanksgiving because of his psak (unlike R. Soleveichik))
Regarding potatoes:
Aruch Hashulchan (O”H 453:5) writes: It was explicitly stipulated that in the event of famine or severe economic conditions, the local sages, led by the chief rabbi, are permitted to temporarily suspend the minhag of avoiding kitniyos on Pesach. However, today, when potatoes are so readily available, there is no such need to be lenient.
The Chayei Adam includes potatoes in the category of kitniyos, although he notes that in 5531 (1771) rabbis permitted their use on Pesach due to famine (see Nishmat Adam 20).
Regarding corn
Iggeros Moshe explains that the minhag to not eat kitnios can be dated back AT LEAST until Maharil, who died in 1427.
Europeans brought corn back from the New World, starting with the Spanish around 1500 (which isn’t such a stretch and could have been known of at the time)
However, to support you, Mishnah Berurah 453:4 and others rule corn is kitnios even though it was introduced to Europe AFTER the minhag had already begun. Potatoes didn’t come to Europe until the 16th century, so potatoes were a “new” vegetable which wasn’t included in the minhag.
Thus, In practice, someone DID indeed forbid something after the decree, and this is acknowledged, but as a general rule R’ Moshe states that we should not add to “chumros”
I’m not sure who you are referring to by: “those who came down with the last rain”. but most of Chabad today “came down with the last rain” including many of those who claim to be Chabad Chassidim from the start.
If you want to imply that peeling was a regional minhag that was adopted by chassidim, I’m ok with that. I’m also ok if you have a specific tradition going back 250 years.
I also agree that “Minhogim do not originate in books”. But at some point in time it becomes “officially” adopted, and more importantly recorded and sanctioned, which this never was, in Sefer Chasidim
Finally, I also cannot fathom the Rebbe stating that chasidim should “not mix” on Pesach as a “Chabad custom”. This is totally antithetical to Chabad and Ahavat Yisroel.and would seem to be elitism.
Please note that all this is just for arguments sake.
Happy Pesach
Milhouse
1. The Pri Chodosh is irrelevant; we (including Reb Moshe) do not accept his psak. But nor do we accept Reb Moshe’s psak.
2. Your claim that “R’ Moshe ruled that the Mechitzah is not just for separation” is exactly wrong. He rules that it IS only for separation and not to block the view, and therefore allows it to be shoulder-height.
3. The Oruch Hashulchon you cite is a raayah listor! It supports my claim that potatoes are not kitniyos, and nobody has ever assered them.
4. Your statement about the Chayei Odom is completely wrong. You have clearly not seen it inside. He does NOT include potatoes in the category of kitniyos, and does not forbid them at all. He merely repeats a rumour that in some other country far away they forbid it. That’s the pattern we find consistently about this: it was always forbidden by someone else, somewhere else, not here. To the best of my knowledge there is no first-hand report anywhere of a ban on potatoes, so I don’t believe there every was such a ban. (The Nishmas Odom can be found here: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfp… )
5. Wait a minute, are you claiming that the Igros Moshe says corn is not kitniyos?! Where does he say such a thing? I don’t believe it. I don’t think he even knew that corn was unknown when the gezeira was made. Had he known this, he might not have written what he did about peanuts.
6. What are you proving from the Mishneh Brura? That corn is kitniyos? Of course it is! Nobody disputes that, which is my point.
7. Reb Moshe’s claim is that the list of kitniyos is fixed as of the time the gezera was made; this is clearly not true.
8. I’m referring to those who came to Chabad recently, and have no family traditions in Chabad, and thus no direct way of knowing what is a Chabad custom except by asking others. Of course this is the majority of Chabad today. And so practises develop, which might one day be considered minhag Chabad, but not every such practise automatically gets that status, especially if it can easily be explained by ignorance or confusion. In the case of not mixing matzoh with mei peiros, this contradicts the very source from which we get the issur on gebrokts in the first place, and also contradicts maasei rav, and therefore it is not a minhag no matter how many people ignorantly keep it. But in the case of peeling, everybody who has does have roots in Lubavitch going back to the Alter Rebbe’s times will tell you that it is so — and so will all other chassidim.
Not mixing is also the minhag of all chassidim, and is definitely minhag Chabad as you can easily verify. I don’t care if you find it hard to believe, the fact is that it is so, and has always been so. It is established Chabad custom, and if it is elitist so be it; Chabad has never been against elitism. In fact the most careful chassidim avoid mixing even during the year, as much as possible. Chassidus is hiddur in mitzvos, not bringing oneself down to the common denominator.
To Mihouse
Milhouse, this is my final post.
It’s been fun
BTW , as although correct about the Tzemach Tzedek, the actual source is from Rabbeinu Tam, who I believe was a few years before the Tzemach Tzedek.
Concerning the milk. R’ Moshe’s entire tshuvah is based on the Pri Chodesh’s concept of Mirtas (fear of government etc) so you need to read up on that, if you can bear to open up Iggores Moshe. The point is that he is actually not really being mechadesh here yet I agree, his tshuvah could have changed Kashrus today.
Concerning Chayei Odom, he wrote: “I have never heard that this is permissible” etc “and if so how, we need to really examine how we can permit it” etc The gist being that he would like to have prohibited it, but that others allowed it.
I have also not found a “first-hand report anywhere of a ban on potatoes” but I don’t see your basis of it being a “rumor”since you are disregarding the comment in the Chayei Adam etc. Also, if it is just a rumor, what is this story of the Alter Rebbe being meikal about potatoes versus the Chayei Adom? If no-one EVER prohibited it, whats the basis for this story?
Regarding the Mechitzah, You are correct in that his major basis is one of separation. My point was that he was not as lenient as R’ Soliveichik and made the de-facto standard shoulder height, otherwise it could have been much lower.
In the case of qinuoa. R’ Moshe paskened that it is Asur to add to the list of kitniyos. I never said that anyone said that corn is not kitniyos, What I suggested was that it is conceivable (albeit unlikely) that corn could have been in the original gezeira, if not for the Mishneh Brurah who states categorically that it was not in the original list, yet nevertheless forbidden, which is proof for your view that foods could be added to the list.
Yet, this is problematic. Did R’ Moshe not know of this Mishneh Berurah? Therefore, one must say that despite the fact that CORN was added to the list (as a Maaseh rav?), we should not any other chumros and the list is now finalized.
And even if there should be a food that arises has the properties of Chometz, it would be permitted, just like potatoes, which have the same properties yet is permissible.
I’m not a chossid of R’ Moshe. It’s just that concerning his teshuvos, with me it’s a matter of Lav Dafka and not your viewpoint of Davka Lav. Also the fact that you are ignoring the many psak dinim of his that we follow and the fact the Rebbe sent people to him, in effect disregarding him, which I do not approve of.
This issue of peeling and mixing is, again, that it is not mentioned in Sefer Chassidim. It is also not a directive of the Rebbe like Mivtzoim etc. therefore it is not an “official” Chabad minhag. Same for mixing. That people have done so for generations is fine and could be considered a “de-facto” Minhag or a minhag “chassidim”. But unless it is endorsed it is not “official”. Don’t you think that if it so critical or widespread that it would be written? Every little prat of the seder is written down yet this is not!
Again, don’t get me wrong, I also peel the fruits but I only do so because I PRESUME this was done in the Rebbe’s home, not because some old family, or group of families, did so. Because if that’s the case I also would do a lot of things that elterer chassidim did, (Like R’ Hillel etc). Perhaps they were doing “Chabad” minhagim. (like the candle-making for Yom Kippur which seemed to be a big thing).
Also, according to your reasoning, Yechi kippot and Rambam menorah’s are minhag chabad, since people have done so for “generations” (twenty years?)
Please note that I am ignoring your “mixing” comments for obvious reasons.
Part 2 to follow
To Milhouse Part 2
Part 2
Some issues here are:
For those foods whose peels are edible, how do we allow Bal Tashchis (peeling edible produce) just for a sofek of chometz?
Why isn’t it ok just to wash the fruit? Where do we find that cold fruits “absorb” from cold and/or dry materials?
And even if you say that the chometz could be hot, it is a sfeik sefeika ( doubt of a doubt) maybe it’s chometz and maybe the chometz was hot?
And if it was hot, how does peeling help? shouldn’t we require kelipah (which is more than just peeling)?
Also we have a real life occurrence in that sometimes toxins are sprayed on fruits. Yet we say it is good enough to wash them. If it’s good enough for poison where “Chamira secanta m’Issura” (dangerous poisons are more severe than prohibitions) why is it not good enough for the doubt of chometz?
Also if the “minhag” is not to wash eggs, which really could have chometz on them, then why are we so particular about the produce.
And if you say we don’t eat the eggshells, which is true, so it’s not comparable to produce, there is still the possibility that a piece of eggshell with chometz on it could fall into the food when cracking it etc. So why don’t we apply the same standard to produce and not wash or peel it?
Also, how do we peel the fruits on Shabbos? If you allow a peeler, you are being meikal on the issue of Borer on Shabbos which is m”doraisa because of a sofek of Chometz and a “minhag”.
And if you take away some of the actual food with the peel, you are still back to the issue of Bal Taschis, especially since you would normally eat the peel, but here you are just peeling it because of some “minhag”.
Again, this is my final post. Gut Mo’ed
Avrohom
awacs
34. Milhouse: “Your statement about the Chayei Odom is completely wrong. You have clearly not seen it inside. He does NOT include potatoes in the category of kitniyos, and does not forbid them at all.”
Am I missing something? I just read your link inside, it seems to say (translating): “(due to a famine) the Ashkenaz permitted bulbos [also: erd appel, clearly potatoes or ‘tapuach adamah’ in modern Hebrew] because in Ashkenaz they don’t eat bulbos as they can made into flour …”
That sounds like he’s forbidding (or at least approving of the ban of) potatoes even though the next sentence: “ … and they also permitted kitniyos … ” seems to indicate that potatoes are separate from kitniyos, albeit forbidden.
So, some non-kitniyos vegetables could be forbidden? Color me confused.
Milhouse
1. You are again wrong about R Moshe and the Pri Chodosh. I have indeed learned that set of teshuvos inside, many times, which is how I know that he explicitly REJECTS the Pri Chodosh. If you have also learned them inside, how did you miss that?
2. You have completely misrepresented the Chayei Odom. He says no such thing about potatoes! I gave you the link; if THAT’S how you read it then either your Hebrew needs serious work, or you were just lazy or dishonest and picked out some scary phrases without bothering to read what they’re about. I’m not trying to be insulting, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to read that teshuvah and come up with the summary you did.
3. The comment in the Chayei Odom is of no use whatsoever, because he is merely repeating a rumor. And *what* story about the Alter Rebbe? Where did you hear such a silly story? I’ve never heard of it, and don’t believe it.
4. You said R Moshe rejected the view that mechitzos are just for separation. As for the height, if it’s much lower than shoulder height then how does it prevent socializing across it? But your point was that we follow R Moshe, and we don’t.
5. How is it possibly “conceivable (albeit unlikely) that corn could have been in the original gezeira”, when as you yourself pointed out the gezeira is AT LEAST as old as the Maharil, who passed away before Columbus was even born? Are you even thinking? How can corn, which was unknown until the 16th century, have been included in a gezera which was already well-established in the early 15th century? Why do you need the Mishneh Brurah to tell you that?
6. Did R Moshe know that corn was unknown until the 15th century? I wouldn’t bet on it. There are many places in Igros Moshe where he displays misinformation about the real world. Would he have picked up this bit of information in the Mishneh Bruroh? Maybe not.
7. Potatoes are not very like kitniyos. The Alter Rebbe says the main characteristic of kitniyos, for which they were banned, is that they are kashe, and if an am ho’oretz knows that kashe is permitted on Pesach he might make one from barley or wheat berries. Potatoes are not kashe, but quinoa is.
8. Reb Moshe is not “davka lav” by any means. But “lo mipiv onu chayim”; he’s not one of the poskim we look to for guidance. As for the Rebbe’s cheshbonos, that’s no basis for anything. We don’t know why the Rebbe sent one person to this one and one to that one. Would you conclude that Dr Seligson was some amazing medical expert, who somehow unjustly went unnoticed by the Nobel committee, just because the Rebbe sent so many people to him?
9. I’m puzzled by your reference to Sefer Chassidim. Maybe you mean Sefer Haminhogim. But that’s not a definitive or official list, and it doesn’t list things that everyone is expected to already know about, e.g. because they’re common to all chassidim. Do you even know who wrote it? Maybe if the author is still alive you can ask him why he omitted peeling and not mixing. My guess is that he’d say it was because it never occurred to him that anyone would need to be told them. And of course it was not a directive of the Rebbe, because it’s far older than him! But really, it is ridiculous to doubt that it is the minhog. I don’t understand how you can possibly doubt it.
Oh, and twenty years is not “generations”. Nor are Yechi yarmulkes or Rambam menoros universal even today, let alone generations ago.
As for the question of bal tashchis, anything that is done for a good purpose is not bal tashchis. The Gemoro in Shabbos says that destroying something because you’re in a bad mood and need to let out some destructive energy is considered constructive work. So is destroying something to make people afraid of you. Kol shekein if you’re doing it to fulfil a minhag yisroel that we have received from our ancestors for many generations.
Milhouse
#37, He is reporting that in *Germany* they don’t eat potatoes, for the same reason that we don’t eat kitniyos. Of course he was not in Germany, and had no first-hand knowledge of what they do and don’t eat. There are plenty of documents from Germany in that period, and none of them mention any such minhag.
Milhouse
#37, note that he also separates legumes from groats (groipen); the actual issue in the teshuvah is whether to permit groats in a time of need, and he says not to permit them even if one does permit legumes, because the potential michshol from groats is greater. This is where he mentions potatoes, repeating a story he had heard that, 30 years earlier, when there was a famine in Fürth, the rabbonim there had permitted potatoes and legumes but not groats. To make sense of this story, he supposes that they must normally forbid potatoes in Germany, and speculates as to the reason.
Milhouse
Correction to #38, paragraph 6. “15th century” should of course be “16th century”.
To Millhouse #38
“1. You are again wrong about R Moshe and the Pri Chodosh. I have indeed learned that set of teshuvos inside, many times, which is how I know that he explicitly REJECTS the Pri Chodosh. If you have also learned them inside, how did you miss that?”
He didn’t, you missed it. He clearly rights “af”, EVEN not according to the Pri Chodosh. It is a rhetorical statement. He does NOT reject it; he only says that he is claiming a CENTRIST position (even if one is stringent when there is NO non-kosher animal in the vicinity…). It is funny that MF quotes the Mateh Yohonosen later in his opinion, because the MY holds like the Pri Chodosh (See YD 116, Seif Alpeh).
“2. You have completely misrepresented the Chayei Odom. He says no such thing about potatoes! I gave you the link; if THAT’S how you read it then either your Hebrew needs serious work, or you were just lazy or dishonest and picked out some scary phrases without bothering to read what they’re about. I’m not trying to be insulting, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to read that teshuvah and come up with the summary you did.”
You seem quite dense. He quotes a “rumor” as you say, and instead of disputing THE REASONING, he just moves. Either he endorses it, or at WORST, he does not dispute the reasoning.
In my opinion, for a minhag to be official Chabad, it either needs to be written down or publicly endorsed by a major figure and accepted by all (preferably stated in an official Chabad document). A good sign that something is accepted by all is if it is written down, and in our times with a large diverse population, I believe it is mandatory. Just because a small band of people in some crap town in Russia did something in a certain way, many years back, does not make it an official minhag Chabad. Ironically this reasoning is EXACTLY what the Chayei Odom’s reasoning was why they were allowed to temporarily lift the prohibition.
To Millhouse #38
*writes (Dyslexia; Facepalm)
Milhouse
“Mishnah Berurah 453:4 and others rule corn is kitnios even though it was introduced to Europe AFTER the minhag had already begun.” … “Did R’ Moshe not know of this Mishneh Berurah?”
I didn’t remember the MB saying this, but I didn’t have one handy and was too lazy to bring it up from hebrewbooks.org, so I took your word for it. I should have known better. I have now looked it up, and the MB says no such thing. Shame on you. Now there is no question why R Moshe didn’t remember it. It remains entirely plausible that R Moshe, even if he was boki in MB, did not know that corn is native to America, and was unknown in Europe until the 16th century.
“He didn’t [reject the Pri Chodosh], you missed it. He clearly rights “af”, EVEN not according to the Pri Chodosh. It is a rhetorical statement. He does NOT reject it; he only says that he is claiming a CENTRIST position ”
What are you talking about? I am looking at the Igros Moshe right now, and he says explicitly that “all Ashkenazi Jews are careful not to take milk from a goyisher farmer, NOT LIKE THE RADBAZ AND THE PRI CHODOSH, and see Chassam Sofer ch 107”. How more explicit can he get that he is rejecting the Pri Chodosh’s heter?
As for the Matei Yonoson, R Moshe quotes him as being *more* machmir than the Shach. And where do you see that he holds like the Pri Chodosh? On the contrary, he concludes that the Ramo goes like the Mordechai that it is ossur.
Now the Chayei Odom. Of course he doesn’t dispute the reasoning of the Germans whom he assumes to have forbidden potatoes. Why on earth would you expect him to dispute it? What business is it of his? And what is wrong with their reasoning? On the contrary, the reasoning of these hypothetical Germans is perfectly sound; a chashash exists, so they made a takanah. However, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THESE GERMANS EVER EXISTED. We have plenty of documents from Germany of that period, and not one mentions such an issur. Therefore it didn’t exist. The Chayei Odom was merely repeating a rumour. Which proves my point that no rov anywhere has ever forbidden potatoes. It’s merely an old rumour, that people have been repeating for 200 years. And the Chayei Odom certainly never forbade them, and those who claim that he did have never seen it inside, or are so incompetent that they misread it as you did.
To Millhouse
“An important “exception” to the aforementioned rule that “new” vegetables aren’t included in the minhag, is corn/maize which Mishnah Berurah 453:4 and others rule is kitnios even though it was introduced to Europe after the minhag had already begun.”
http://www.oukosher.org/ind…
Still it is hard to believe that a major posek would not know/investigae this fact before issuing a psak.
RM obviously considers it an “exception”.
Milhouse
#45, As I suspected you never looked inside. The MB of course says corn is kitniyos. We don’t need him for that; we already have plenty of earlier achronim who say it! He does not mention a word about it having been introduced after the gezeira, WHICH WAS YOUR ENTIRE POINT. So your claim is completely false.
As for Reb Moshe, I find it completely plausible that he didn’t know this. Igros Moshe contains many false statements of fact. R Moshe’s research methods, whatever they were, seem to have been faulty. Just two examples: his confident statement that there are more than 3 million people in Brooklyn, and more than 600K in Flatbush and Borough Park alone; and his description of the way veal calves are raised, which is the exact opposite of the metzius.
So no, I see no reason to think he considered it an exception; on the contrary, if he thought it was an exception he would have mentioned it. That he didn’t indicates that he didn’t know about it.
To Milhouse from Avrohom
Milhouse
I enjoy you posts and could not hold myself back, so here goes:
Unfortunately, your basis for all of this is your belief that “peeling” is a “official” Chabad minhag.
That it is not recorded anywhere is of little importance to you. To that end, you then go on to disparage R’ Moshe, Chayei Adom, the author of Sefer Minhogim and others to support that claim.
You even seem to go as far as to claim that it has the status of a “minhag yisroel” and that being (sofek) meChallel Shabbos is actually a mitzvah in this case (“Kol shekein”) since it is such an widespread established custom).
Surely even you must realize that this “foundation” of yours is quite shaky.
(BTW, What is your source for this “Kol shekein”?
If it actually was a “Minhag Yisroel” I could possibly support your position. Since the issue of burning clothes (Bal Tashchis) on Lag B’Omer has been sanctioned by some because it is a Minhag Yisroel to honor the Rashbi. But there, it is not on Shabbos, and indeed many were/are against it. Also you just can’t blindly say that anything you think of is actually “constructive”)
)
Again, I do peel fruits. I presume the Rebbe’s household did so. I presume that older chassidim did so. Do I know for sure – NO!, Do I know the reason – NO!
So why do I do it? Is it rational? sentimental? more careful or chassidish? – I’m not sure, Yet I do it anyway because that’s the way everyone SEEMS to do it.
But is it a 100% bonified minhag Chabad? To that end what constitutes a chabad minhag?
You appear to suggest that if it was done in “olden times” by a group of chassidim than it must be so.
Again, I am suggesting to you that that is not good enough.
Because based on this, someone in a few years could claim that quite a few other things that the Rebbe or other groups of chabad chassidim supposedly did is authentic “Chabad”. My example was the Rambam Menorah which has been used for over twenty years and you dismissed. Yet, indeed some have actually questioned the use of any other menorah as being disrespectful of the Rebbe’s shita.
Sorry, I did mean Sefer Minhagim. But your statement that
“it doesn’t list things that everyone is expected to already know about, e.g. because they’re common to all chassidim” is to use your phrase “puzzling”. Is that in the Shaar Blatt or do you have a special connection to the “author”, or ESP?
The actual author is somewhat irrelevant. The fact that this was designated as the official sefer of Chabad minhogim is good enough for me.
If you are suggesting that it is not official than we’ve no entered a no-man’s land where everyone “acts on their own”. Indeed, We are, in fact, there today, since many of the customs have changed. And this is the whole point.
To be honest, it could be actually written somewhere that we “peel” but this would not render the discussion moot. The issue is doing something, as a supposed minhag, that is not written down)
(BTW, as 38 (who is not me) replied you are missing the entire point that although R’ Moshe rejected the lenient view IN ENTIRETY, he nevertheless adopted a CENTRIST position. I have seen this explanation and it is quite obvious. Yet you can argue this with the veltishe yeshivish crowd. Again I am not his chossid, but he deserves honor.
You are missing the larger picture in these issues, but that is just my opinion
I really think that this will be my post and I will let you have the last word. I will enjoy reading your rebuttal, if you have one.
BTW, no reply to the other questions?
Gut Yom Tov
Avrohom
To Millhouse #44
“And where do you see that he holds like the Pri Chodosh? On the contrary, he concludes that the Ramo goes like the Mordechai that it is ossur. “
You didn’t bother looking up my citation and you ask for a source. How academic of you.
Nevertheless I will translate roughly: “But in a time when they made the gezariah with a caveat, such as the prohibition of drinking milk from a goy so that a Jew must sit and watch the milking because he [the goy] mixes in non-kosher milk, and therefore if the Jew watches from the beginning it is not prohibited. NOW, that there are no non-kosher animals amongst us, therefore, IT IS AS IF THE JEW SAW THE MILKING. Because even during the gezariah this was not prohibited.” (See YD 116, Seif Alpeh).
This is exactly the opinion of the PC (IM pg. 86), and the MY clearly endorses it. I would like to see you turn this around. It can be argued that this is even the position of the Mordechei where there is no non-kosher animals in the area period, which is highly likely in these large milk plants (See page 84 and 86 in Igros Moshe).
MF was saying that even if you do not accept all these positions [and the MY was arguing for the Mordechei], it STILL might be as if a Jew saw it because of the gov’t etc.[Again, a CENTRIST position].
As to you PC quote; please give me a page number, as I looked multiple times and can’t seem to find where he rejects the PC outright.
As to the CA you write: “why on earth would you expect him to dispute it? What business is it of his?”
Really? His whole commentary is talking about what is and what is not allowed, and he does not bother to discuss such a blatant issur? Why not say “we do not prohibit this…” or any variation thereof? In my years of learning, if a posek mentioned something and did not dispute it, it was logical to conclude that either he endorsed it, or did not dispute it.
I do not have proof of this reading [although in the American legal education, this would also be the standard reading of a court’s dicta.]
Having said that, the other commentator certainly does not need help reading Hebrew; Keep your snide comments to yourself. And don’t ask for a source, when it is clearly given to you, just shows you are lazy and dismissive.
Milhouse
#47:
“o that end, you then go on to disparage R’ Moshe, Chayei Adom, the author of Sefer Minhogim and others to support that claim.”
I have not disparaged any of the above. (Though it is strange that on a chassidisher blog we are discussing the Chayei Odom *without* disparaging him, since he is not tofes mokom by us at all. But here we are not discussing him as a posek, but merely determining whether a rumoured psak of his exists.)
“You even seem to go as far as to claim that it has the status of a “minhag yisroel” and that being (sofek) meChallel Shabbos is actually a mitzvah in this case (“Kol shekein”) since it is such an widespread established custom).”
Stop making up stories. I said nothing about chilul shabbos. Your dishonesty is astounding.
“(BTW, What is your source for this “Kol shekein”? ”
No source is needed – kol shekein is by definition a matter of logic, not authority. Why would you think it needs a source? And again, what has Shabbos got to do with anything; who brought up Shabbos?
“You appear to suggest that if it was done in “olden times” by a group of chassidim than it must be so. ”
Yes, that is the only definition of a minhag. That which Lubavitchers have done midorei doros is by definition minhag Lubavitch. She’al ovicho veyageidcho, zekeinecho veyomru loch. Provided that ovicho and zekeinecho were in a position to know; if they weren’t then you need to ask those who were.
“The actual author is somewhat irrelevant. The fact that this was designated as the official sefer of Chabad minhogim is good enough for me. ”
Who designated it thus?
“you are missing the entire point that although R’ Moshe rejected the lenient view IN ENTIRETY, he nevertheless adopted a CENTRIST position”
That is meaningless. Because on some question you can find someone who is more machmir and someone who is more meikil therefore he is a centrist?! His shita is what it is, and doesn’t depend on anyone else’s. And in this case what was written about his shita was a lie. He explicitly rejects the Pri Chodosh, so it is a lie to say that he accepts it. Oh, and I have no idea what you mean by your reference to #38, since that is MY comment!
Milhouse
#48:
“You didn’t bother looking up my citation and you ask for a source. How academic of you. ”
What on earth are you on about? I looked up everything you cited, since I’ve already learned the hard way not to trust you.
“Nevertheless I will translate roughly: “But in a time when they made the gezariah with a caveat, such as the prohibition of drinking milk from a goy so that a Jew must sit and watch the milking because he [the goy] mixes in non-kosher milk, and therefore if the Jew watches from the beginning it is not prohibited. NOW, that there are no non-kosher animals amongst us, therefore, IT IS AS IF THE JEW SAW THE MILKING. Because even during the gezariah this was not prohibited.” (See YD 116, Seif Alpeh).”
I’ve looked through the entire Matei Yehonoson on this siman, and this quote does not seem to be there. On the contrary, he takes the exact opposite position, that lo plug rabbonon, and it is ossur even if there is no dovor tomei. If you continue to maintain that the quote you gave above is there, tell me exactly where it is.
“This is exactly the opinion of the PC (IM pg. 86),”
I’ve just looked through the entire page 86 and there is no reference to the Pri Chodosh.
“As to you PC quote; please give me a page number, as I looked multiple times and can’t seem to find where he rejects the PC outright. ”
Page 82, second column, line beginning “delo kradbaz upri chodosh”.
“As to the CA you write: “why on earth would you expect him to dispute it? What business is it of his?” Really? His whole commentary is talking about what is and what is not allowed, and he does not bother to discuss such a blatant issur? ”
What blatant issur? What issur at all are you talking about? There is no issur. He reports that in Germany they banned potatoes. Why should he express an opinion on that?
“Why not say “we do not prohibit this…” or any variation thereof? ”
We all know that we don’t prohibit it. He doesn’t have to tell us that. That’s precisely why he has to tell us that in Germany they do (or so he heard). Without that his story about the beis din in Fürth suspending that prohibition would make no sense.
“In my years of learning, if a posek mentioned something and did not dispute it, it was logical to conclude that either he endorsed it, or did not dispute it.”
Then your years of learning were wasted. There is no logic whatsoever in your claim. It was not up to the Chayei Odom to endorse or dispute what they do in Germany. He reports it as a (rumoured) *fact*, not as a halacha of any kind.
If I were to tell you that in Belz they don’t eat carrots on Pesach, do I have to tell you what I think of that? Of course not. It’s none of my business. I’m simply reporting what I’ve heard — and the important point here is not whether I approve or condemn this supposed Belzer minhag, but whether it’s true. Since I’m not a Belzer, and don’t know any Belzer chassidim, what I heard is very likely to be incorrect. It’s entirely possible that they do eat carrots, and my impression that they don’t is untrue. So if someone were to cite me as proof not only that they don’t eat carrots, but that I also would at least like to forbid carrots, then that person would be an idiot. And if he were to claim outright that I forbade carrots, then he’d be a liar.
“I do not have proof of this reading [although in the American legal education, this would also be the standard reading of a court’s dicta.]”
Garbage. I know very well how to read dicta, and this is not it. If you tried such a trick in a brief it would be rejected.
Avrohom to Milhouse
Milhouse
I really am not defending the CA, but negating a stance that a posek would repeat some “rumor” in a teshuvah without validating it – which is ridiculous to say the least. Nevertheless, you can argue with most of the other ppl’s consensus that he would indeed assur potatoes if not for the Maasei Rav.
BTW, I heard that “silly story” repeated for years and even found it on the web (albeit attributed to the Tzanzer Rebbe). I heard it from those guys who peel all their veggies, so it must be true.
I apologize for the Mishneh Berurah (I assumed the OU site was valid) But the logic is sound, it was an honest mistake, and did not warrant the reply.
“destroying” is assur on Shabbos. You know that. There is the heter that you mentioned but you are extending the halacha based on your own “Kol shekein”. I asked for a source – you reply that none is needed. If your logic is faulty, than your extension is faulty. I guess that anything you deem “constructive” exempts it. (BTW, I heard that some rabbonim permitted the peeling on Shabbos, but again I would ask them, just as you – where is the source for this?)
“olden times” by a group of chassidim etc.“. We’ve gone over this numerous times. In fact that was my first objection – You are just repeating yourself, without adding anything of value
I cannot believe that you are so facetious to deny or question that Sefer Minhogim was/is the official Chabad list of Minhogim. Seriously? Perhaps you have been too busy following your own set of minhogim? It is now my turn to say ”Shame on you“.
My reference to #38 is to that other poster who is arguing with you. I have for the past few posts been signing ”Avrohom“ in order to distinguish myself from him (Also my tone is a bit more deferential) (Note to other poster – could you pls use a name)
However, I do agree with him regarding the PC as I initially stated.
Also, while technically you are correct that any shita may be deemed centrist – You either do not seem to grasp the concept or are just denying it with sophistry.
Also for the record, I have been trying to put aside RM ever since you have qualified the ”lo mpiv“ statement and I do not feel like rehashing this. You can argue with the other guy.
However, I stand by my original statement. ”Peeling“ is not a “minhag yisroel” by any means. It
is not in sefer minhogim, and it has almost no rationale in halacha. I presume it was done in the Rebbe’s household, but have never seen this WRITTEN. Since you learn the ”hard way”, perhaps you can share a source for this, since you claim it to be a 100 year-old minhag from before the “last rain” .
(BTW, after reading R’ Chana’s memoirs, I actually now find it hard to believe that they threw out edible peels when they were starving)
Regards,
Avrohom
To Millhouse #50
To 50. Milhouse
Why I am spending time on this I do not know, but for academic reasons I will point it out to you with links.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/…
MY on the RIGHT: Paragraph begins “And now that snakes are not found”, middle of the paragraph. It is clear – hope you read the WHOLE “MY”.
This is the opinion of the Mordecei and PC. MF is a brilliant opinion (with very interesting distinctions between “in the barn” or “amongst us” – which you might argue is the opinion of the MY, but as MF points out, that could be the opinion of the Mordechei and even the Machmirim (87 end of Page – Rashi in the S”D.)
“I’ve just looked through the entire page 86 and there is no reference to the Pri Chodosh. “
See page Pey Ches (88) first column.
“Page 82, second column, line beginning “delo kradbaz upri chodosh”. “
Very interesting in light of the MY above and the above distinctions. I am not sure which part of PC he says we do not abide by [PC allows it even if the price of non-kosher milk is more expensive, or not in the barn (PC YD 115 Seif Katan (6). Hard to know, but MF and Ashkanazim may agree with the PC, Rashi, and the Mordechei when it is not amongst us at all.]
“We all know that we don’t prohibit it. He doesn’t have to tell us that. That’s precisely why he has to tell us that in Germany they do (or so he heard). Without that his story about the beis din in Fürth suspending that prohibition would make no sense.”
I honestly think you are being disingenuous. If the Rebbe or AR said something of the same sort, there is not a doubt in my mind we would not be able to eat potatoes. Again, it is a reading. To say that it is precisely as you say it is, is quite foolish.
Aharon