Baby Diagnosed with Herpes After Metzitza B’peh Bris
The New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene has issued an “alert” to the city’s medical community following a January 2014 case of neonatal herpes following the Jewish circumcision ritual metzitzah b’peh, or MBP.
According to the document, the newborn was the product of a full term pregnancy and underwent the MBP ritual on his 8th day of life, after which a doctor conducting a routine check-up the following week noticed a rash on the child.
After a series of unsuccessful treatments, HSV-1 (herpes simplex virus, type 1) was suspected and specimens were collected and sent off to the New York State Wadsworth Center Laboratories.
The child was hospitalized for treatment after the diagnosis of HSV-1 was confirmed.
According to the release it is the 14th laboratory-confirmed case of MBP-related HSV-1 on record at the Health Dept. since 2000, two of which resulted in death—-while yet another two young boys suffered brain damage.
The issue of MBP has continued to be a hot-button topic for New Yorkers, more specifically New York’s Jewish community after former-Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s implementation of parental consent forms sparked outrage.
At a January 16 news conference, new Mayor Bill de Blasio doubled down on his campaign promise to work with Jewish community members and religious leaders to actively seek an alternative to the consent forms, but said that for the time being they will remain in place.
Archaic
Please publish the Mohels name and revoke his status as Mohel. Until Mohels go through weekly screenings by way of blood tests etc, to determine whether their Herpes virus is Active or Dormant, this archaic Rabbinical law of Metzitzah B’Peh needs to be abolished.
“Live with the times.” In our times 1 child getting HSV-1/Herpes is too much and is unacceptable! The Rabbonim need to issue a Temporary or Permanent Freeze on Metzitzah B’Peh. Or at least make the straw mandatory.
Avraham Avinu gave himself and Yitzchak a Bris… No where does it mention , he sucked the blood.
#outlawmpb #nomoreherpes #saveoursons #nomoresucking #usethestraws #
Ezra
Neither does it mention anywhere in the written Torah exactly what the “orlah” is. So how do you know that it’s not some other part of the body?
You know that from the oral Torah. Well, that same oral Torah tells us that there is an oral component to the bris milah. And the G-dly Torah – and G-d is beyond time – never is and never will be “archaic.”
bubby
no thats like murder embarrassing someone
Milhouse
Thoroughly wrong. Even if this so-called risk were real, we would still be obligated to do metzitzah. It is an integral part of the mitzvah, and even the alleged risk is lower than what we are commanded to accept for milah. In fact it’s lower than what we routinely accept for all sorts of trivial reasons.
And you can see in Sdei Chemed a list of the poskim who did not allow it to be done through a straw.
Avrohom Ovinu didn’t do peri’ah either; nowadays that would be an invalid bris. So even if he didn’t do metzitzah (and you have no idea whether he did or not) what kind of proof can you bring from him?
In any case, the mohel’s name should not be published unless and until it’s established by a DNA test that the infection came from him. That has certainly not been done yet, so there’s no basis for publishing his name and ruining his practice.
SO HOW IS THE CHILD
NOW,I KNOW OF A CASE WHERE THE CHILD HAD IT AND DIED BEFORE THE BRIS,IT’S NOT SO SIMPLE,THE MOTHER COULD HAVE IT AND IT WAS NOT FOUND.A LOT OF THINGS IS HAPPENING TODAY,ONE THING IS SURE THE MOTHER’S HEALTH ISN’T BEING WATCH CAREFULLY,YOU KNOW THE DR CAN BE A MISS TO IT ,IN GENERAL WOMEN ARE USING DRS,SO EVERYONE SHOULD BE TESTED IN THE 8TH MONTH TO BE SURE
Avraham the Mohel
This is woefully missing details. In previous cases, the mother was found to be the source of the herpes.
Has there been an investigation?
bubby
One a year ? what percentage is that ?
And how many patients go into hospital for various treatments and come out with unexplained infections, or other problems ?
Milhouse
One a year, in all of NYC, is what they claim. So far they haven’t proved even one case, but this is the extent of their allegation. So even supposing them to be 100% correct, the risk would still be negligible, and there would be no heter to abandon metzitzah.
One infection a year (not one fatality, one infection), divided by all the brissen done in NYC, is a far lower risk than that from milah itself, which we are commanded to accept. And it’s certainly lower than the risk from milah before modern medicine; for most of our history milah has been known to carry a real risk, we knew that children would occasionally die from it, and yet we willingly accepted that risk for the sake of the mitzvah; how then can we cavil at this far lower risk (even assuming that the critics are 100% correct)? Indeed, this alleged risk is far lower than the risk in driving the child to and from the bris!
Isn't it possible that....
Isn’t it possible that these babies got this neonatal herpes from the hospital stay?
Is it really verified for certain that it was caused by metzitzah b’peh during the bris milah?
Anonymous
exactly! maybe test the baby at 5 days old and see if there is a virus
No Proof
Where is the proof of causality between the MBP and the HSV-1?
Milhouse
1. How did they verify that MBP was performed?
2. Have they verified that there was no rash before the bris?
3. Have they tested the family members?
Based on the other 13 alleged cases, in none of which was any of this done, I’ll bet it didn’t happen in this case either. This is a political campaign, and the reports are motivated by politics, not medicine.
Suggestion
To test the Mohel before the Bris. Certify them and all babies will be okay!
pregnant mother
would it be wrong to publicize the name of the Mohel in order to safe guard other babies?
Milhouse
Yes, it would be wrong, unless you can be certain that he is responsible for this child’s infection, and you inform him of it, and he refuses to stop practicing. Only then would you be justified in warning people.
For a rash?
Why was the child hospitalized for treatment? Herpes, burpies. The parents should look in the gemoro for a cure.
To Number 10
I’m sorry, but has any medical advances in the last 200 years been based of Gemara? I do not believe so. Moreover, you seem to disregardt the seriousness of this disease. Herpes in fact, can lead to coma, liver faliure, and even death. So please, next time you would like to bash the men and women who actually make a difference towards the health of others, please consider the validity of your claim that Gemara contains cures.
For a Rash?
The Frierdike Rebbe gave out a whole ma’amar proving that Hashem doesn’t burden people with more than they can handle. If Hashem wanted this baby to develop rashes, then the parents must accept these sufferings with love.
To Number 16 by Number 15
According to your belief, the Holocaust should be “embraced” with love and appreciation cv”s. Let me ask you this, If, cv”s, your child becomes ill, will you seek help. Or, will you follow your interpretation of the The Frierdike Rebbe’s Ma’amer by neglecting your own child’s suffering. If so, then when your time to pass on comes, you will tell the doctors trying to save you to stop trying, and you will say “according to my interpretation of a Ma’amar by The Frierdike Rebbe, I must happily die in pain.” If you agree with all of the above scenarios, then you clearly do NOT condemn murder, torture, genocide and terrorism of Jews and gentiles alike. Besides you, the rest of the world is trying to help others. Believe in whatever one’s heart follows. But, just realize that accepting suffering is not a religious ideology, but is, indeed a mental block.
For a Rash?
When a Chabad Rebbe delivers a ma’amar the Shechina is literally speaking through the Rebbe’s throat we believe. If you have problems with the Rebbe’s ma’amar I suggest you take it up at the Ohel (or in 770 if you’re on that madrega).
Milhouse
The Rebbe’s maamar doesn’t mean one should not do whatever one can to prevent or heal sickness! The Torah says verapo yerapei. The Frierdiker Rebbe didn’t just accept his yissurim be’ahavoh; he went to many spas and doctors to seek whatever healing he could get, and only that suffering which could not prevented did he accept.
To Millhouse
Absolutely. It says Rapo Yerapei, we have to mitigate our suffering, so we do METZIZA B’PEH to prevent illness from the bris. Yidden don’t need hospitals and their antibiotic ointments (which, agav, are now showing to cause even bigger super-bug infections.) Regarding the Frierdike Rebbe, we don’t ask kashas on the Rebbe. If the Frierdike Rebbe went to a doctor, that was his chesbon. The Rebbe didn’t go to the hospital … even when he had a heart attack. I heard at a farbrengen that the Rebbe later said that had they not called any doctors he would have fixed his heart attack by himself. For regular Yidden, we stick to the simple pshat. The gemoro says metziza prevents danger, so we do metziza come what may.
Milhouse
We do metzitzah because it’s part of the mitzvah. It doesn’t matter whether medically it’s a good idea or a bad idea, we do it anyway. But if someone gets sick we seek the best medical advice and treatment we can, which in practical terms means taking them to a hospital.
To #5
Its either the mother who transmitted Herpes or the result of MBP. HSV 1 is typically orally transmitted, so I suspect the MBP.
Milhouse
On the contrary, the majority of cases of neonatal herpes come from the birth canal.
where is our emuna?
If Torah advocates metzitza baal peh then no harm will come from that. Nobody can prove it happened from the mohel. Everyone likes to make Jewish traditions look old or unhealthy…..this is all from the side of unholiness to even think like that. These are the challenges to emunah before the coming of Moshiach. Surely Hashem will protect klal yisrael.
Milhouse
The Torah requires milah, and yet over the years much harm has come from it. Babies dying from milah was common enough that the halocho says how to deal with it: it says that even if a family has lost one son they must nevertheless circumcise their next one, and only once they lose two are their subsequent sons exempt. So we know that harm can come from a mitzvah. And we know that if the risk rises to a significant level then we may invoke pikuach nefesh and ignore the mitzvah. But we also know that we may only do so when the risk has risen that high, and not when it’s any lower. The risk we’re discussing here, even if we accept the critics’ worst projections, is far lower than anything that would justify abandoning a mitzvah.
hi
can someone please enlighten me,,, is a bris not valid if MBP is not done??? would really like to know
Milhouse
Of course the bris is still valid; once the baby has been circumcised, how could one fix this? It’s not like omitting priah, where there’s something left to cut, so you have to do it over, Here there’s nothing left; the blood that you should have sucked is gone, there’s no getting it back and sucking it now. So yes, bediavad there’s no need to do a new bris, because there would be no point. That doesn’t in any way justify not doing it properly in the first place.
to milhouse
Sorry but you make no sense. Who says much harm has come from doing brisim over the years??? Harm does not come from fulfilling a mitzvah in Torah.
Perhaps there were babies who were weak and were circumcised too early but that is where the Torah advises how to proceed. There were not many cases of such things. Bris milah has been done for generations and generations with almost no problems, so much so that even the queen of england, lhavdil, wanted her son circumcised by a Jewish mohel because the Jews are experts with a record of almost no ill effects! Why do you MIlhouse even make negative statements??? This is not the way of Chabad or the Rebbe!
Milhouse
Do you deny that מתו אחיו מחמת מילה used to be a real occurrence, not just a hypothetical possibility?! The gemoroh records cases of babies dying from milah. And throughout the ages it used to happen, often enough that everyone was conscious of the risk. That’s why for the first three days after a bris, a baby is considered חולה שיש בו סכנה.
How many cases were there? I don’t know, and neither do you, but even one case proves that a mitzvah can result in harm. But we accept that risk.
In fact I have an incontrovertible proof that mitzvos can result in harm: קידוש ה׳ יוכיח! Not every mitzvah is sweet as honey. Some mitzvos are painful. Again, milah is an example, which is why we Ashkenazim do not say שהחיינו.
Even today, every surgery, however minimal, carries risks, and milah is no exception. Boruch Hashem it’s rare nowadays for a baby to die, but there are serious injuries from milah, even from expert mohalim, just as there are serious injuries caused by expert surgeons, because there is no such thing as 100% safety in life.
Mendy Hecht
I just have one question (well, a few, really):
Q1. How many circumcisions are performed every day in the Orthodox communities of the greater New York City area (from KJ and Monsey through Mt. Kisco and Westchester and Riverdale through the Five Boroughs, Five Towns and North/Central Jersey)? A1: I think it’s fair to estimate a good few hundred. But let’s just say here that it’s 100.
Q2: How many of those involve MBP? A2. Well, that’s a good question, but let’s just say it’s 50/50 (maybe more, maybe less). So out of the 100, you’ve got 50 with MBP.
Q3: Of the 50 daily circumcisions with MBP, how many of those babies get herpes? A3: Even in the worst-case scenario of 1 out of every 50, it’s only 2%. The actual figure is much lower because 1. You’ve got, say, 100 babies a day, x 365 days a year, that’s 36,500 babies; 2. of those 36,500 babies, at most a few dozen get herpes from MBP. So; 3. Let’s say even 4 dozen–48–babies get herpes from MBP out of 36,500 each year. Now let’s do the math: 1% of 36,500 is 365. 1% of 365 is 3.65. Thus, 3.65 babies is 0.1% of 36,5000. Multiply that up to 48 (i.e. how many times does 3.65 go into 48) and you get 13.15.
Thus, out of 36,500 babies, 13 will get herpes from MBP. An extremely small percentage. A major health crisis this is not.
Now, run the same math on the percentages of those 36,500 babies who tragically die of hospital-acquired infections (HAIs), and I’ll betcha the numbers and percentages are significantly higher than herpes/MBP.
This is little more than passive-aggressive hatred of “fanaticism” and religion couched in “health concerns” and “social justice.”
Milhouse
Re your #3, the allegation (which has yet to be proved) is that in the entire NYC there is one excess infection per year as a result of MBP. That means one excess death every 3 or 4 years.
This is not only far lower than the risk of hospital acquired infection, as you point out, and not only is it far lower than the risk of milah itself, even nowadays, it’s also far lower than the risk of driving the baby to and from the bris.
Mendy Hecht
Sorry, got the math wrong there. It’s late and I can’t figure it out. But whatever–the point is that out of 36,500 babies annually circumcised, virtually none get herpes. What, 14 babies got it since 2000? I’m not denying the horror and tragedy of it to their families, but again, a major health crisis this is not.
To Mendy Hecht
There’s no horror and no tragedy. Hodu LaHashem Ki Tov we say many times a day. 2% or 200%, (I’m also not a numbers cruncher) regardless of how much herpes develops from metziza, we’ll obey the Torah as it is illuminated through the illumination of Torah, he is Toras Hachasidus, which clearly states that metziza b’peh is obligated.
Milhouse
Not so fast. if there’s a real, proven, and significant sakonoh, then we can omit metzitzah (or even milah) entirely, kol shekein that wen can rely on those poskim who allow doing it through a straw. For instance, the original machlokes about this was at a time when the danger was not herpes but syphilis, which at the time had no cure, r”l. In the face of a real sakonas nefoshos one must do what’s necessary. But in this case, even the alleged risk is not significant; and even that has not yet been proven. We do not alter our mitzvos for the sake of such a negligible (if it even exists) risk.
DaasTorah
Metzitza B’peh is 100% ASSUR! This boy will have herpes for the rest of his life. Can you imagine what his life will be like because of this MAMISH AVEIRAH?! How will he ever get a shidduch?! It’s 100% not his fault.
To D'ass Torah
You sound like you’re learning from the mishna brurah. By Lubavitch and ALL the smaller Chasidim we do according to Kabboleh which comes from R’ Shimon B’ Yochai, mamish when he was hiding in the cave from the times of the Gemorah. Metziza b’Peh dafka is the Rebbe’s inyonim. Please don’t mix what you don’t understand.
Milhouse
Go look in Sdei Chemed for a long list of poskim who insist that metzitzah must be done directly, with no straw. Who are you to argue with them?
The poskim who permit are also great, and you have the right to choose to rely on them. If you want your son’s metzitzah to be done with a straw, nobody is going to force you to follow the poskim who forbid it. But what right do you have to impose your view on those who forbid it? Are you next going to force people to carry in an eruv that they hold is possul?! Or to eat meat that they hold is treif?!
hey
B”H
The Rebbe writes:
“suction must be done by mouth and this poses no danger of disease G-d forbid. experience tells us that we have been doing the suction by mouth for thousands of years, and no sickness was ever caused by it G-d forbid.”
see booklet ‘kovetz minhagim’ – chabad customs regarding pregnancy, childbirth, circumcsion etc… – Kehos. see sources cited there
Weirdo!
Daas torah about 50-80 % of the world population has some form of Herpes. Get over yourself! You sound ignorant and opinionated.
lol "Daas Torah"
“How will he ever get a shidduch?!”
YMSP
How much longer are people going to be loichem against minhogei yisroel that have kept us spiritually – and physically – better off than other nations?
Almost all cases of neonatal herpes come from the birthing tract – nothing to do with metzitah bpeh. Even this case shows no clear correlation between the metzitzah and the herpes development.
So many people think they know better than the Aibershter, and are eventually proven wrong each and every time. Hashem should help that this time it should be bChesed.
my son got it
my son got herps even before the bris and B”H had a complete refuah sheliemah. My wife complained to nurses before discharge that there was an issue but nurses said just go home cause your ok. well they were wrong.
herpes is everywhere, don’t pass around your baby to anyone but the mother until one month passes. baby’s immume sys is too weak and the mohel gets blamed if anything goes wrong.
Stupidity from liberal NY.