Posted to Jewish News on
Illustration photo

Seized Lev Tahor Children to Return Home

Two children from the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect Lev Tahor are being returned to their parents, after they were taken into foster care by Canadian Authorities last Thursday.

According to Lev Tahor Lawyer Chris Knowles, the brother and sister were taken from their home by a Chatham-Kent Children’s Services case worker Thursday night after they saw what they thought to be symptoms of child abuse.

“They observed some marks on the child’s face. They commenced their investigation, and sought the assistance of the police. The police ultimately determined there was no criminal activity.” said Knowles. However, despite the police’s recommendations, the caseworkers apprehended the children anyway.

The judge presiding over the case decided that there wasn’t enough evidence of abuse to take the two children from their parents.

Sources told CrownHeights.info that the marks on the child’s face turned out to be stains from coloring markers, though this has not been independently confirmed.

The issue is due back in court for a hearing on January 31. Chatham-Kent Children’s Services requested and was denied a full publication ban earlier today.

Their request earlier this month to seize all the children in the Lev Tahor community was also denied by a judge at the time.

Related Articles

65 Comments

    • K

      Read carefully: “there wasn’t enough evidence of abuse”.

      That means that there was SOME evidence to suspect abuse, but not enough “to take the two children from their parents”!.

      You say B”H, I say R”L.

    • Milhouse

      Without overwhelming evidence, what gives you the right to accuse them of anything? I mean that seriously, what right do you have to accuse fellow Jews of aveiros, without being sure that it’s true? And how can you say R”L that Jewish children are not being put in foster homes where they will eat treif ch”v?

    • K

      Children that are below age of chinuch that are eating insects and treif – there is NO obligation on bais din or the tzibur to prevent them from eating it (Shulchan Oruch), HOWEVER there IS an obligation to rescue a child who is in danger, even if it requires to commit chilul shabbos for the rescue!

    • Milhouse

      Chas vesholom, what are you talking about? Treif will permanently damage their bodies and souls, far more than anything you suspect they’re getting at home! There is no way to undo the pegam of treif, because it becomes part of the person. What did we just learn in Tanya a few days ago? And cholov akum (and stam yeinom) specifically cause sfeikos in emunah.

      One can be mechalel shabbos to save someone who is in danger of being killed, or of shmad. Are you seriously alleging that either concern is applicable here?! What’s your basis for such an allegation? On the contrary, taking the children away is what might lead to shmad, chas vesholom.

    • K

      Trite law: Koton ochel nevelos – ain bais din metzuvim l’hafrisho. If the child isn’t at age of chinuch – father is also not obligated to refrain his behavior.

      A child locked in a room by himself – on shabbos one may break down the door. Enough said on a public forum. V’dal.

    • Milhouse

      Mah inyan shmita etzel har sinai? Ein beis din metzuvin lehafrisho means there is no chiyuv of chinuch on them. They can watch him poison himself and sit back and do nothing. Are you seriously claiming that there is no effect on the child?! That the child is not in fact being poisoned by treif?! Shomu shomayim, how can you imply such a thing? Just this week we learn about Moshe Rabbenu being saved from chas vesholom nursing on a shiktzeh’s milk (which isn’t even treif!), because if he had done so it would have affected him. It’s more important to be careful with children’s kashrus than with adults’. Who has the chiyuv of chinuch is an entirely separate matter.

      And yes, if a child is locked in a room the Shulchon Oruch says it’s a sakonas nefoshos, he could die of fright. Medical science may disagree, but this is the basis for being allowed to break down the door.

    • YMSP

      Unbelievable how anyone can support taking kids. More unbelievable are posters supporting this kind of inhumane cruelty. I doubt anyone here supports Lev Tahor, but one would have to have a heart of stone (and probably a brain of mush) to support this insanity.

      There are cases, mostly not yidden, who starve, beat the kids, etc. There are cases where psychopaths who somehow think they’re doing good try to take kids for no reason – endangering a generation.

      When a poster like KKK sees an article that all but shows they were vindicated, ignores the fact that both the press and the social services “system” R”L are out to find any excuse to do their dirty work and are especially suspicious/spiteful toward frum people (especially a group that none of us approve of – but that’s a far cry from taking their kids – HASHEM YISHMOR) and tries to pick semantics of the reporter with an agenda, something’s wrong with people today, far more serious than anything wrong with Lev Tahor.

      These Lev Tahor guys have been gone after in a press that’s happy to quote a third party (an upset brother of a sister who’s part of them – and maybe I’d be upset too, but wouldn’t do this – and who they of course can’t name). At this point I’m willing to say there’s a chazoka of some goodness in anyone who the press goes after. But that has nothing to do with taking their kids based on the most scurrilous of reasons, finding out the reasons were false (at least according to the judge, who is not usually loathe to go against it).

      The best part is, the social service gestapo wanted a “publication ban”:after they lost their case. Trash a community (even a community that we may strongly disagree with) and then when it’s found to be ridiculous hype and lies, seek a publication ban so that no one finds out.

      Sounds like today’s modus operandi, Rachmono Litzlan.

      Kudos to Milhouse for defending the truth.

    • Nachman Rosner

      http://www.bill613.com/news/provincial-police-suspected-lev-tahor-human-trafficking-forgery-documents/#comment-71983

      A 14 page affidavit filed by Quebec provincial police to obtain a search warrant (called an Information to Obtain document), which contains written testimony by two former members of Lev Tahor-known as a CULT, was unsealed and obtained by News Agencies on Wednesday and the allegations in the document reveal that Quebec provincial police suspected Lev Tahor cult of human trafficking and forging documents.

      The document, which was signed by Sgt. Normand Dion of the Surete du Quebec, also describes forced prayer services, drugging and food deprivation. The affidavit also details that the suspicion of forged documents led Quebec provincial police to obtain a search warrant on January 29, 2014 in Chatham, Ontario, after Lev Tahor cult had fled from Ste Agathe to Chatham in the middle of the night. Among the items confiscated were hospital cards, laptops, marriage licenses from Missouri, bottles of medication including treatment for seizures (divalproex) and an antipsychotic medication (perphenazine), and a medicare card. The document was dated January 28th, a day before the search in Chatham.

      The affidavit also mentioned a CD containing documents from 2010 and 2011, which included a forged passport and power-of-attorney documents asserting control over members of Lev Tahor cult in case of incapacity. The CD had been given to the SQ by a rabbi who had received it from a former member of Lev Tahor Cult.

      The list of charges in the warrant issued in January include detailed allegations by former Lev Tahor cult members — including Helbrans’ own son Nathan — of physical force, braking his legs, use of psychotropic drugs, forced marriage of juveniles and sexual assault in a very bad way, according to Canadian reports.

      Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/09/11/news-opinion/world/lev-tahor-sect-trafficked-in-human-cargo-documents-show#ixzz3DKLMcrpx

      In the interview section of the affidavit, a former member alleged that children were beaten with a hanger in the Shul, Ministry of Education documents had been forged by the former member of Lev Tahor cult on direct orders from the men running Lev Tahor cult, children were removed from their families and placed with other families if the parents didn’t follow Lev Tahor Cult rules, members of Lev Tahor cult were ordered to go to the doctor with a list of symptoms and ask for specific medications by name, children were brought in to Lev Tahor cult from other countries for arranged marriages, and mandatory use of medication (one witness said that he had been “forced to take pills with my meals three times a day.”) The witness also alleged that Lev Tahor cult leadership conducted violence of many natures (physical, emotional, etc), and did not allow children to be educated. Another witness added that when 13 and 14 year old girls disobey Lev Tahor cult rules they are tied up in basements, and that all money coming from the government must be handed over to Lev Tahor Cult leadership.

      More allegations came from a January 2014 interview with One who fled Lev Tahor Cult in 2012 together with his pregnant wife after questioning the ethics of Shlomo Helbrans, leader of Lev Tahor cult. According to the affidavit, he told the SQ that he was given instructions to beat children with a belt and that children under 16 were married. He was also forced to forge documents for the Ministry of Education.

      He also told the SQ that on Shabbos morning everyone was/is forced to Daven Shacharis for 6 hours followed by an hour of meditation. “he indicated that during the prayers at the synagogue in Ste-Agathe-des-Monts, people were locked in the building … the doors were locked with a key so that no one was able to leave,” was written in the affidavit, according to the Toronto Star.

      The affidavit also reports that in August 2013 police and child welfare officials went to the community where they had to wait over an hour before going into the homes and saw very suspicious things, including a man going door to door carrying a paper bag. When they were finally allowed into the homes, they interviewed some members. One person told them that he had been separated from his family by force upon first arriving in Lev Tahor Cult. Placed with strangers, he had nothing to eat and had to beg. He also shared the story of a Lev Tahor member ordered to slap a woman in the face for refusing to wear the burqa Lev Tahor cult women wear. He also said that any income must go straight to Lev Tahor cult leadership.

      Lev Tahor Cult, who fled to Guatemala, denied all the accusations. CBC Windsor met Lev Tahor cult member Evil Munster Nachman Helbrand ימ”ח (who is also known as a lire) in Chatham as he was collecting things a family had left behind. He told them that the reason Lev Tahor cult left Canada is because they felt their religious freedom rights were violated.

      It is important to note that while Lev Tahor cult members dress like Chassidim, they are not considered Chassidim, let alone Orthodox Jews, by the majority of the Jewish world. they are a “cult” and cold blooded people just like the Nazis, In fact, All Chassidim in Montreal united to support and protect families who had left Lev Tahor this horrible disgusting cult.

      We object to using the term Haredi or Orthodox regarding these people. They are simply a crazy manipulative sect. They do not accept Torah Sheba’al Peh, the Oral Tradition, therefore they are simply “Apikorsim” and do not follow the Torah of Hashem. Why did the Monster, child abuser, Helbrans move away from Jerusalem? Because if he stayed he could isolate his group with himself and manipulate them, they would have been excommunicated even by the Haredim in Jerusalem.

      http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/23/nyregion/rabbi-given-prison-term-in-kidnapping-of-teen-ager.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm

      http://www.bill613.com/news/provincial-police-suspected-lev-tahor-human-trafficking-forgery-documents/#comment-71983

  • stv

    educate us on these people. what are their hashgafas in Jewish life, how do they conduct themselves, what is their history, and current information. When did they start this, how serious and deep is it. Do they bother others, do their leaders have police records…..we need to understand who they are.

    • anonymous

      there was a whole article on them in the mishpach (i think-one of the jewish ones) magazine about them. the women and girls were berkas, the men learn. it is a cult. READ THE ARTICLE AND FIND OUT MORE INFO ON THE CULT.

    • TJ

      To #6

      I have news for your tiny brain: The only difference between “religion” and “cult” is time and population.

      Every single religion and movement on planet earth began small, and unpopular, because it introduced unconventional teachings and practices. Its followers were persecuted and it was labeled a “cult.”

      Then over time, as it gained followers and popularity, it became a mainstream “religion.”

      Christians were persecuted as a “cult” by the Romans. Mormons were until recently considered a cult, but a lot of you voted for one for president last year. Muslims were persecuted as a “cult” in their early days.

      Lihavdil, the Chabad movement was considered a cult by mainstream Judaism a couple hundred years ago. The Jews at the time spoke with the same disgust and hatred, as spread the same rumors, as people are spreading about Lev Tahor and its leader today.

      You don’t have to agree with their way of life to accept that they have the freedom to dress and behave as they choose. And don’t be so quick to forget that you yourself are one of the main beneficiaries of the enshrined right to freedom of religion.

    • Milhouse

      The difference between a cult and a legitimate spiritual movement is easy to discern: if you are required to give everything you have to the movement, and work for the movement or else give it all your earnings, and to live in poverty while the leader lives in luxury off your labor, then it’s a cult. If you have the freedom to work for yourself, and to donate as much or as little as you desire, and the leader lives more simply than you do, then it’s legitimate.

    • K

      A cult is an organization with deviant and novel beliefs and practices.However, whether any particular organization’s beliefs are deviant or sufficiently novel is often without a clear or consistent definition.

      “Cults like other deviant social movements, tend to recruit people with a grievance, people who suffer from a some variety of deprivation.”

      Cults are protected under the First Amendment. As Milhouse knows.

    • Milhouse

      That’s why the only useful test is whether the leader is out to get your money and effectively enslave you for his own benefit. The first amendment protects that too, but that only binds Congrefs, and you and I are not Congrefs.

    • K

      Their women folk don’t dress like yiddishe yiddenas, just as the women on Kingston don’t dress like yiddishe yiddenas. Better a burqa than a mini skirt!.

    • Milhouse

      There are no burkas. They’re wearing shawls, just like your elter-bobbe probably did.

    • TJ

      That’s exactly what every Jew in Lithuania said about Chabad, and how they justified persecuting the Chasidim and locking up the Alter Rebbe.

      Stop judging people because their way of life makes you insecure about your own religion.

    • let's be careful not harmful

      do they keep shabbos? etc ! you are in Kaas (angry) and lost your Daas!

    • K

      In Islam countries, the burqa is the body covering, whereas the head cover is the niqab, or face-veil. These woman ARE wearing burqas.

  • let's be careful not harmful

    I more than agree with Citizen Berel: Government taking Jewish Children from Mommy and Tatty is wicked. The less Gov is involved in Idishkait the better.

    But look: so many Jewish organizations collect $$ from Gov. Guess what, the cheese is free only in a mousetrap. We should advocate that Gov should collect less taxes, give money to nobody except Defense Dept etc, and stay away from our lifes.

  • let's be careful not harmful

    KKK: Mishne: Hispallel bi’shlom malchus! You KKK turn things upside down. Gov job is to defend us so other people would not forcefully mix in our lifes, and that’s the only VALID reason to TAX us, and that’s REAL shlom malchus, and that’s what Mishna is really saying.

    Milhouse wrote: We only need [BAD] government help because it burdens us! 100%

  • CHT

    I was in the train with my daughter and she was not in a good mood. One woman approached me and asked, in investigative tone, what is she upset about.

  • elki

    Hey Milhouse, If you’re being provocative by design, ok, that’s your agenda.
    However, if you believe that this cult and its clothing and teaching methods are no different that our great-grandmothers, and Yiddishkeit in general, and if others agree, we have a problem with chinuch and perceived hashkafah today.

    • Milhouse

      You tell me the difference between this mode of dress and that of our great-grandmothers. What makes this mode of dress not Jewish? What makes its teaching, or its teaching methods, not Jewish? In what way do they contradict Judaism?

    • K

      Do you think Sara Imeinu wore a Sheitel? Did Moshe Rabeinu wear a shtreimel (or a Borsalino)?

      So Milhous is “right” except it is a red herring!

      Sara Imeinu indead wore a burqa (veils wrapped around her in layers) and Moshe Rabeinu wore a turban!

      HOWEVER…minhag yisroel EVOLVED. An example, all men wear a kipah covering head at all times (which is NOT a historic chiyuv but became one due to minhag as Jewish dresss), and women wear “normal” clothes.

      Breaking from this minhag is going AGAINST Jewish dress.

    • Milhouse

      Since when? What is so great about “Jewish dress” anyway? Especially if you just mean the fashions that happen to be adopted by most Jews. Well, these are Jews too, and they have adopted this fashion, so by definition it is “Jewish dress”, to the extent that there is any such thing and it is of any value.

      (Don’t even bother citing שלא שינו את מלבושם. In Mitzrayim Jews were just another kind of bnei noach, and had nothing to identify them as Jews except the usual ethnic markers such as language, names, costume, cuisine, dance, etc. At Har Sinai we became a new kind of people, with the Torah to identify us, so we have no need for ethnic shibboleths such as these.)

  • SoCal shliach

    You’re the Idiot with the Tiny brain. Chabad was NEVER thought of as a Cult. (look up the broad definitions of a cult- the basic condition is you cannot leave) that wasn’t the issue. It was other things I have no interest in getting into.

    Yes, to the shallow, degenerate general public. Ie the permissive single parents who cannot keep a family unit together, who allow their kids BF’s at ten and tattoos at eleven and dress themselves and their kids like sluts,they perceive and view any frum yid with suspicion and disdain, they think he is brainwashed and kept in terror because he/she has to dress modestly and attend long hours of school and can’t even go to movies or talk to boys.

    The simple difference is we know better. We know the truth.
    Anybody who has an inkling what and who helbrans was/is. Anybody who understands the torah culture of the value we hold our wives/mothers/daughters knows something is very wrong here
    And no Milhouse, they shouldn’t of been taken to goyim they shouldve been put in a jewish foster home.
    And NO, milhouse that is NOT how our bubbys dressed that is how Muhammed wiives dressed. This is not yiddish.

    This situation is NOT a healthy one. Not good for the kids. I can feel it in my bones

    Someone just sent me a video as he was walking in yerushalayim meah shearim (!!) 2 weeks ago a 9 year old boy was leading his little 6 year old sister completely covered in black (even head) by the hand!
    Is this yiddishkeit??! Is this normal?? Will this poor child lead a normal productive yiddish torah true life??!
    Idiots

    • TJ

      “Socal Shliach,” allow me to sum up your arguments for the English speaking people on this thread:

      Paragraph 1: No you’re stupid! I’m right and every history book is wrong, but I have no interest in proving it.

      Paragraphs 2 and 3: secular people think of my children exactly the way I think of Lev Tahor children, but I’m right and they’re wrong. Trust me. Because these girls dress like Muslims, and my grandmother definitely did not dress that way.

      Paragraph 4: I have a bad feeling in my bones about these people. Therefore, obviously, the government should rip their children from their mothers’ arms and place them in the abusive foster care system. It’s for their own good. My bones are never wrong about these things.

      Paragraph 5: Someone once saw something somewhere completely unrelated to the people we are discussing about. But the sky is going to fall because people are dressing more modestly than my daughters. Obviously, the sky will also fall if people dress less modestly than my daughters (as so eloquently explained in paragraph 2). In short, every girl in the world must dress exactly like my daughters, or else my bones will declare that they should be kidnapped and placed into foster care.

      Summary: There is obviously no minimum IQ threshold required to become a Shliach.

    • Milhouse

      Please tell me how our elter-bobbes dressed, and in what significant way it differed from the way these women dress.

      Also please explain what this has to do with those crazy burka women, who are opposed by all the rabbonim, and by their own husbands and fathers

      Hamotzi mechavero olov horayah. If you call these people outside Yiddishkeit, and especially if you claim they are so extraordinarily abusive that there is no choice but to steal their children from them, you have to have strong evidence, clear proof, not innuendo and rumor.

    • K

      כת הוא מונח המתאר קבוצת אנשים, שאמונתם הדתית או מעשיהם אינה עולים בקנה אחד עם המקובל
      בזרם המרכזי (האורתודוקסי) של אחת הדתות המרכזיות.
      There are various definitions to “kat” from being part of the mainstream to all the way far-fringe. Do not label all birds under one name.

  • SoCal shliach

    As one (famous) example that this is not Torah. The halocho in SA re buying your wife bigdei tzivoinim on chag.
    See also rashi in ki seitze re the difference between bnos yisroel and the yefass toar
    Also, see the Rebbes letters re complete shaving of head that it is NOT advised due to the prohibition of not being “ugly” nimass To your spouse. The last thing tzniuss means is wearing a black aveilus type garment.

    Bnois yisroel yoffos hein

    • Milhouse

      Bigdei tzivonim are to be worn only indoors. The yefas toar is to make herself ugly to her would-be spouse. I have seen nothing to suggest that these women don’t wear nice clothes at home, and don’t make themselves up nicely for their husbands.

      The Rebbe’s opinion about head-shaving is all very well, but the fact is that huge kehillos (i.e. Hungarians) have a different opinion. The minhag in Hungary was to shave, for whatever reason. We are not bound by that minhag, and we have good reasons to reject it, but we have no more right to impose our view on them than they do to impose their view on us.

    • K

      Last time I was in Lakewood EVERY SINGLE woman was wearing ONLY black clothes. ONLY Black skirts, ONLY black sweaters etc. (not even navy blue or gray – just black), Hmmm,,, the Lev Tahorniks also only wear black…

    • YMSP

      SoCal – R”L. The Rebbe gave a derech for us, not to be used to take kids from frum parents…. I’m no fan of Lev Tahor but they’re closer to Judaism than the Modern Orthodox are (would you criticize them on a thread if their kids were ch”v vch”v in danger l”o vl”a) and in any case, taking kids from parents absent full iron clad proof of danger is a makah asher lo kasuv baSefer HaTorah. A shliach (all but) supporting it a double makah shelo kasuv basefer HaTorah.

      I’m sad for this generation when a shliach sees fit to post stuff against parents whose kids were taken and goes so far as to almost justify it. Really, it’s beyond belief.

    • YMSP

      SoCal – If you’re quoting Shulchan Oruch in some twisted attempt to take away kids from parents, there’s really not much that can be said.

      Other than:

      Your hashkofos seem to be coming more from mein kampf than from Shulchan Oruch.

      If you are a shliach it reflects even more poorly on SoCal than one would think.

    • YMSP

      SoCal

      Were these photos taken on YomTov?

      Does it say that someone who does not wear bigdei tzivonim should have their kids taken, R”L??

      You write this and you say that THEY are not following Torah???

      I’m no fan of theirs but I don’t adhere to Pirush Tzar Nikolei al HaShulchan Aruch either.

  • let's be careful not harmful

    you can call it jewish taliban, so what’s so bad? I as a chabad man would be fine to marry 1 of those taliban ladies if otherwise she is normal and speaks yidish.

  • Anonymous

    unmarried women are supposed to keep their hair uncovered. They are not following Halacha. Halacha has a lot of leeway for us to find how wecan fufill each mitzva, but when we get too meikel or too machmir we violate the halacha. There are limits on the left and on the right to how far a Jew can go and still be keeping any given halacha

    • Milhouse

      So now unmarried women are supposed to keep their hair uncovered?! נייע תורות הערט מען דאָ. Where on earth did you get such a bizarre idea? The Shulchon Oruch says they must cover their hair; we don’t pasken that way, for good and sufficient reasons, but how can you pasken the exact opposite, how can you forbid what the SA requires?

  • SoCal Shliach.

    TJ like all peabrained miscreants you can’t take what you dish out.

    Mulhouse : do I really have to tell you that The hisnagdus to Chabad was due to the perception that chassidic are not frum. And are ignorant. And that they believe the Rebbe is an intermediary. And to the early misnagdim it was also very much about Busch hatfillo.
    Surprised I have to explain such basic stuff to such brilliant people.
    A Kat is not a cult. A Kat is a group. Albeit derogatory one, similar to notzrim. Did u really need a low iq simple Shliach to explain that?
    This group is related to a guy called Helbtans. Google him. Ask peoe from Montreal who know these people. They have been around them. It’s not just how try dress. It’s the whole structure.
    Our bubbehs dressed tzniusdik not hideous as These creeps make their women into
    I am very aware and friendly and related to the more extre groups of chassidishe Yidden like satmer and toldoa aaron and it’s nothing like this. It’s widely unassuming and understated.

    To say that bigsei tzivonim on yom tov is for private bein ish leoshtoi doesn’t become you. It was obvious for women to proudly wear on yom tov. And I highly doubt that these people have a different dress code on their private areas.
    Again, it’s not only about the dress it’s their whole warped controlling attitude.
    As I said a pity on the children.

    • Milhouse

      SoCal, you misquoted the Shulchon Oruch. It doesn’t say בגדי צבעונין, it says בגדים ותכשיטים. If you look in Hilchos Ishus the Rambam describes what תכשיטים a husband must provide for his wife (not on yomtov, but in general) and they include בגדי צבעונין. But the purpose of תכשיטים is explicitly to wear indoors for her husband, not outside! Just like cosmetics are (in Chazal’s view) for home use only, so are the בגדי צבעונין. A woman whose husband is away is not given any money for תכשיטים, which presumably includes בגדי צבעונין.

      (Chazal also instituted that women should wear בגדי צבעונין so that if they see a kessem it won’t be tomei; obviously that refers to clothes worn near the skin, not outerwear that they would wear in the street on those occasions that they went out at all, which wasn’t that often. When they did go out, they wore a redid, which is like a talles that covers the whole body, and would presumably also cover their בגדי צבעונין.)

  • SoCal Shliach.

    And the rebbes letter was to prove that a wife should be careful not to make herself mouss (ugly) to her husband.
    I believe the rebbe was actually criticizing this practice.
    But of course it is their minhag like it or not.

  • Just a random Joe

    there was absolutely grounds to take away the kids. if there is any chance of child abuse it is the job of the people neighboring the suspected family to take action. if they can honestly say that they are not chas vshalom abusing their children then they should be able prove it, and the simplest way would probably be to get the proof from the children, but then again, nobody asked me.
    yes, chabad was considered a cult. if you don’t know that you haven’t learnt your basic lubavitch background.
    and for gods sake, no, i’ll leave god out of it, for my sake, let them dress how they wanna dress. we interpret torah our way, let them do it theirs and stop saying the whole time that “we are right we are right” cuz for all we know they are right.

    • TJ

      You are placing the burden of proof on the defendants. That’s a terrible idea.

      If the government came to take away YOUR children, based on wild accusations by people who don’t approve of your religion, wouldn’t you want them to have to prove your guilt beyond reasonable doubt?

      Taking away one’s child is the worst form of punishment a government can bestow upon someone. Just ask any parent and they will tell you so. The burden of proof – beyond reasonable doubt – must be on the government’s shoulders for them to do something so drastic as to separate a mother and child.

  • Diane Smilanick

    Do you ever think that these people are really Muslim Taliban, trying to infiltrate to United States to bomb us again? I don’t believe these people are really Jews. This is a sneaky way to do terrorism. Don’t always believe people are as religious as they say. People lie all the time and guess what, Hashem knows all.

    • Milhouse

      Don’t be silly, these people didn’t spring out of nowhere. We know who Rabbi Helbrans is, and whatever he is he’s no Moslem.

  • CH

    For all of you so certain about the clothing your alter-bobbies wore, or what is or is not Yiddishe klyder, I suggest that you read עולמות של טוהר. Then compare what you or your wives are wearing today, and ask exactly who Sora Imainu will recognize as a Yiddishe shevester when she returns.

    Also, I remember very clearly that the Rebbe aussered granny and granny-length dresses, because they went after the goyishe styles. Imagine what he would say, today. Who cares, right?

    Please look at yourselves before evaluating others through diseased eyes.

  • SoCal shliach

    My life is BH very fulfilling B’geshem u’beruach.
    Get out into the real world and see it’s evils and the nutcases that inhabit it. Google shlomo Hebrans. Read the stuff that is written by objective people.
    True we live in a free society. But if anyone can honestly compare this group of people to early chassidm then you need to read the history of early chassidm.

    And…. milhouse. bigdei tzivoinim or tacshitim (all this is written on the road without any acesss to souces) the torah mesora is not to make a spouse ugly and in black. Even the most “chareidi” groups like toldos Aaron wear nicer clothing on shabbos and yom tov. Takeh B’darkei Tznius.
    Black all over isn’t yiddish it isn’t torah it isn’t normal it’s grounded in a control freak.

    Be well

    • YMSP

      Like a control freak who believes in taking parents from kids because their rabbi is a bit out there? That kind of control freak?

      Because if wearing black has anything to do with a control freak like that, then that’s a serious problem.

      I agree that your life is very filling bgeshem ubruach (miloshon poost). Try some ruchnius, or just some basic humanity to start with. (Not feeling good writing a personal attack, but some opinions are beyond the pale).

  • syl

    I actually live in chatham ontario where these people ran to and everyone here accepts them. I am guessing that is why they came here.