I can’t say I knew either side very well, but I helped raise money for the wedding so I thought it was only right for me to show up and wish the family Mazal Tov.
I turned to the person next to me and asked him who he was related to at this wedding. To which he answered, “Neither side, I just helped out here with money so they can afford the wedding and I felt I wanted to come and say Mazal Tov.”
It then dawned on me that many people that have Parnassah still need additional help to make a wedding.
Op-Ed: What We Can Learn from Satmar
I was sitting at the smorgasbord of a wedding the other day.
I can’t say I knew either side very well, but I helped raise money for the wedding so I thought it was only right for me to show up and wish the family Mazal Tov.
I turned to the person next to me and asked him who he was related to at this wedding. To which he answered, “Neither side, I just helped out here with money so they can afford the wedding and I felt I wanted to come and say Mazal Tov.”
It then dawned on me that many people that have Parnassah still need additional help to make a wedding.
The real question is why do we feel forced to make weddings and Bar Mitzvahs that are beyond what we can afford?
The trappings we can’t afford are not what make a wedding Kosher. For a wedding to be kosher all you need is a Kosher Rabbi, a Minyan and a Seudah. All the rest is not necessary to get married, and for that matter is no guarantee for a happy marriage. It is certainly not part of the mitzvah to go into debt when making a simchah.
In fact, the less financial strain on the couple and their parents, the more likely it is that the marriage starts off on the right foot. When there is so much financial strain and tension the marriage can start off rocky.
There’s the matter of the overdone pictures and video, music, clothing, decor and of course, my pet peeve: the guests.
My favorite line about this topic is one that I’ve often said, “When you make a wedding, you invite those who you feel obligated to invite but don’t really want, they don’t feel they want to come, but don’t want to say no, so they come and then they sit at your wedding and leave before the main course because they don’t feel obligated to you in any way.”
There has been some relief in our communities about this issue with the growing popularity of Simchas Chosson V’Kallah, but a greater change is possible and necessary.
The other day I came across an article that spoke of a change in the Satmar community.
The Satmar community has accepted self imposed community wide restrictions regarding the lavishness of the Simchos that they make – starting from the L’Chaim through the Sheva Brochos. These restrictions were made so that everyone who makes a Simchah still feels on par with everyone else and not inferior. The married couple gets what everyone else gets. I think this change is one that we can all learn from.
Do we really need to go into debt for our children’s Simchah to make our children feel special on the day of their wedding? Is it the menu that makes our kids feel special? The band?
I know someone who gives an equal amount of Tzedaka for whatever he pays for his Simchah. Therefore he’s careful with what he spends. He knows he has to afford double. It also gives him and his children a chance to focus on priorities and remember those who are less fortunate.
In this time that we all feel the strain of paying rent, buying housing and paying tuition perhaps it’s a good time for us to follow Satmar’s lead and as a community cut back on the unnecessary expenses of Simchos we can’t afford.
Rabbi Shea Hecht
This Op-Ed reflects the views of its author. It does not necessarily reflect the views of CrownHeights.info nor of its Editors.
A reader that wishes to make his or her voice heard on any topic of their desire is welcome to submit his or her Op-Ed to News@CrownHeights.info.
The Jewish Press reports on the new Satmar Chasunah guidelines becoming official:
Satmar Chasunah Guidelines Become Official
The Satmar Rebbe, Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum, officially instituted strict wedding guidelines at the annual Satmar dinner held at the Rose Castle on Sunday, January 6, 2008. His words were heard by more than 2,500 chassidim. The Kol Satmar (718-305-6942) and the Kol Mevaser (212-444-1000 and 718-906-6400) hotlines, each of which has a capacity to handle more than 4,000 simultaneous calls, broadcasted the speech live. The hotlines recorded the speech, and it can be heard by calling those numbers and making the appropriate selections. The more than 4,000 calls that came in on each of the hotlines were from all over the greater New York metropolitan area, as well as from California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, Europe, and Israel. Many of the calls were hooked-up so that entire shuls were able to listen.
The guidelines come in wake of a recently conducted survey. Questionnaires were widely distributed in the beginning of December, 2007 with an immediate response requested. The questions had been prepared by a committee of kehilla activists (the Vaad Chasuna Tekanos) who were selected by the Rebbe. The questions were carefully worded and had the Rebbe’s expressed approval. The results were compiled and presented to the Rebbe who then consulted with the committee. Together they formulated the kehilla’s regulations and guidelines.
The questionnaire came in reaction to the spiraling cost of weddings, sheva berachos, teno’ims, bar mitzvahs, and vacht-nachts (meal on the evening before a bris for extended family members, friends, and neighbors, almost always at the new baby’s home or maternal grandmother’s home). The Rebbe had previously tackled the issue of runaway celebration expenses during his keynote address at an anniversary event (21 Kislev-December 1, 2007).
Even earlier, on Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan, October 11,2007, certain takanos (regulations) went into effect for all members of the Satmar community. The takanos regulated that bar mitzvah parties could only be held in Satmar’s Menucha V’Simcha Hall in Williamsburg and at a kehilla hall in Kiryas Yoel. No more than 40 couples could be invited. The affairs would come as pre-arranged packages without any additions possible. Costs were as follows: 20 couples, $800; 25 couples, $875; 30 couples, $1,000; and 40 couples, $1,200. These prices included the hall, waiters, etc., and obviated the need for party-planners, flowers, hired photographers, musicians, vocalists, party favors, etc.
The new guidelines were enacted for shidduchim celebrations, chasunahs and sheva berachos. The guidelines have received wide acclamations from the Satmar community and will surely have wide-ranging effects. The new takanos are in addition to the previously enacted bar mitzvah celebration guidelines. The Satmar chassidishe community is one of the largest and its successful implementation of these takanos will very likely be replicated by the many other chassidishe communities that generally follow Satmar.
Compliance
In order to ensure compliance with the Satmar guidelines, local committees will be organized in every Satmar shul. The committees will meet and review adherence to the guidelines and provide dispensations for special circumstances. The Satmar Rebbe has invested much effort and prestige in the formulation and enactment of the takanos.
The guidelines may possibly be adjusted in wake of their reception and compliance. Additional takanos will most likely be enacted in the very near future for shalom zachors, vacht nacht-brissim and kiddush celebrations. The expressed purpose of the guidelines is to increase joy at simchas, not to diminish it. The following are the new guidelines:
Vort – Teno’im: The teno’im certificate should be read at home during the vort or at the kabbolas panim at the chasunah. At the vort, usually celebrated at the home of the kallah at the time of engagement, only light refreshments (soda, liquors, cake, and cookies, etc.) may be served. No additional event may be held to celebrate the engagement, even if only light refreshments are served.
Gifts to the kallah: Only four pieces of jewelry are to be given: a watch, pearl necklace, earrings, and an engagement ring with a cubic zircona (diamond substitute) stone. The only additional gifts permitted are a machzor, Tzenah Ur’enah, siddur, kerchief and apron. (The kerchief and apron are usually of white silk and ceremonial, used to light Shabbos and Yom Tov candles.) The engagement ring, the first gift, is to be given for the first or second Shabbos after the engagement.
Gifts to the chassan: Only four gifts are to be given: a watch, Shas, kiddush cup, and menorah. These are in addition to a tallis, tallis and tefillin bag, and kittel.
No other gifts: Except for the gifts specifically enumerated, no other gifts are permitted – not to the chassan or kallah, not to their siblings, and definitely not to their parents-in-laws. The Shabbos candelabra, if not received as a gift from other relatives, should be purchased and paid for jointly by both sets of parents.
When to give the gifts: The above enumerated gifts for the chassan and kallah shall be chosen and presented at the following times: The first Shabbos after the engagement, Rosh Hashanah, Sukkos, Chanukah, Purim, Pesach, Shavous, and the Shabbos before the chasunah, all according to the time span of the engagement.
Shtreimel: The shtreimel shall be purchased by the parents of the chassan. In accord with the recent change of attitude to the purchase of shtreimels, only one shtreimel shall be purchased at a cost no higher than $1,200.
Sheitel or head covering: These should be purchased by the parents of the kallah.
Ladies kiddush: This kiddush is no longer permitted – not at the Shabbos aufruf nor at the shul fieren (the escort of the kallah to shul on Shabbos Sheva Berachos).
Shabbos aufruf: All meals during the Shabbos aufruf are to be eaten at the home of the chassan’s parents. Only the chassan’s grandparents and siblings are to be invited. The future father and mother-in-law are only to be invited if they reside out of town.
Bentching at the wedding: Bentching should take place no later than 11:00 p.m.
Wedding celebration ending time: The wedding shall end no later than 1:30 a.m. At the mitzvah tantz before the kallah, the grandfathers, separately, should first dance; then all the brothers and brothers-in-law, cousins, nephews, etc., all at one time together and not individually with the chassan; then the father of the chassan; then the father of the kallah; and then the chassan.
Shabbos Sheva Berachos: This meal should ideally be eaten at the home of the kallah’s parents. Alternatively, the meal should be eaten in a small catering facility. Only grandparents, the kallah’s siblings, and – only if they reside out-of-town – the chassan’s siblings are to be invited. In smaller families, the chassan’s siblings may be invited. Other close relatives, such as those of the kallah’s parents, should eat at other relatives and join the sheva berachos only for bentching. Sheva berachos at Shabbos shalosh seudos should be conducted in shul for men only. For ladies, the shalosh seudos should be conducted at the kallah’s parents’ home with only the grandmothers and the mothers of the chassan and kallah. During the summer months, when the Shabbos day is longer, lady guests who reside out-of-town may also be invited.
Sheva Berachos of chassan’s parents: This meal should preferably be at home only. Alternatively, the meal is to be eaten in a small catering facility. Only parents and grandparents of the chassan and kallah, as well as the chassan’s siblings, are to be invited. In smaller families, the kallah’s siblings may also be invited. No professional (paid) badchan, gifts, music, party planners, photographer, singer, etc. are to be hired.
Other sheva berachos: Other sheva berachos should only be eaten at home and should include only the chassan and kallah, their parents, and necessary panim chadashos. After the meal, guests may be invited and only served light refreshments.
stop th madness!
it’s about time!!!
it-s about time
Yes, there’s much we can learn from them!
Shea-s ol- Hadar Hatorah buddy
I have worked in Williamsburg for a while… There is a lot we shouldn’t learn from. But this is a good suggestion by Shea.
A better suggestion is that we should learn how to deal with the Goyim around us by their example of STRENGTH and not being passive!!! Enough is enough!!
May HaShem bless you all. Moshiach Now!!
In Debt & Flat Broke
As always, Shea talks a lot of sense. I absolutely agree with every word he says, but UNLESS/UNTIL Chabad brings in Takonahs, it won’t change, not for me either.
Why?
Because unfortunately, in all communities, and even here in CH,there’s a certain amount of repricocity…if you’re invited to Reb J’s daughter’s wedding because you live down the block or daven in the same Shacharis minyan, you invite him when your son gets married. That’s the “rule.” I suppose you can call it manners.
And because Oholei Torah, the Razag, & BR are such big halls, any crowd less than 300 looks sort of…well, pathetic.
As far as Takonahs here…our Rabbonim can’t agree or show Achdus between themselves, so who is going to set limits that everyone will stick to? If you follow Rav X & Rav Y says limit the Chassanehs, there’s a good chance Rav X will disagree. So poor (literally!) Reb Yossle doesn’t know what to do. His RAV is against takonahs; his POCKET is for them!
Please do not start harrassing me about Kovod HaRabbonim, that’s not the issue. The issue is that THIS is a perfect forum for our Rabbonim to come together, as I’m sure they ALL feel this way about excessive spending. Once Takonahs are in place and the very wealthy abide by them there’ll be no shame for ANYONE to follow them.
One final point…I love the way these other Rebbes lay down the rules for other people to follow. Did anyone read the reports over Shabbos about the Belzer Rebbe’s einekle’s Bar Mitzvah? I’d like to see what happens with the next Simcha of the Satmar Rav.
Please print this response…I’m sure there’ll be plenty of lively & hopefully respectful discussion.
ceo
it is admirable for all of us to consider pulling back and having this information as a guideline.
Only thing is that we don’t have the same lifestyle as Satmar. We have so many other things in our lives. We need a handbook on how to enjoy such a simcha. I personally would be totally fine with having a reasonable simcha such as is described,and my family would be fine too (that IS the type we do, pretty much). But some people have been indulging in this luxury shtuss for so long, they will need counseling to learn how to enjoy a nice healthy wholesome simcha.
thanks for sharing.
g.z.
whoever wrote this is definitey right.
you cant imagine what the expense of a wedding can do to a person-whatever the writer meant,its much worse than that.
jo
Rabbi Hecht,
We can learn something from everyone, and thankyou for posting this and the guidlines from satmar especially in a time when most families are so hard pressed at best, to make or even dream of making simchas. It is a practical and very mentchlach way of doing things as way as a way to show ahavas yisroel to others and not make them feel that they have to keep up with their friends and neighbors.
Mother of a Bar Mitzvah boy
Kudos to Rabbi Hecht for finally bringing this topic out in the open. I feel that Bar Mitzvahs are also getting out of hand. Why do we have to go into debt to make a a fancy shindig, when we can’t afford it. If people would not expect anything different and everyone would have the same standards,we would all be better off!!
Impressed
WOW! This makes a lot of sense. When can we start?
l.y
i agree with it . how ever alot of it is not practicul
show me the money !!!
my best freind is satmar and she is telling me how much these takanos are changing lives! the situation is satmar was getting way out of hand where families would take out massive loans to cover the costs of their simchas!! they were treing so hard to be like the rich families who make these lavish weddings and bar mitzvahs ! for every wedding in satmar that the family couldnt afford their was another tzedokah auction to help out these familes !! these tokonos are being inforced in a very organized matter and the community coundn’t be happier !!! i think this should be installed in crow heights as well .. we see time and time again .. the contrast we have in our community where the boys from the same class .. so wealthy some not so!! compare their bar mitzvah’s ect.. how can you expect the family of the less wealthy boy to match up ? so they try and go in debt !!! for what ? i think it is the most rediculous thing to waste thousounds of dollars in a bar mitzvah , This community is having so many issues with just treing to survive with tuition ect…. that we should definately get our commnunity together and try to establish some takanos for ourselves as well !
CM
I like the idea in principle, but these guys take it a little too far. This is not kindergarten – you have to give people choices…
Crown Heights Rules
I’m all for it!!!! A Lechayim in the house is the way to go. You just saved yourself 3 thousand dollars. Saving on the wedding may be more tricky but if the community comes together with some sort of resolution we will definitely save somewhere. Lets do it Crown Heights!!!
WS
In short:
“Too many people spend money they don’t have, to buy things they don’t want, to impress people they don’t like.”
sara
Funny, I think the satmar’s cut-down is greater than existing Lubavitch guidelines. ‘4 pieces of jewelery???’ I think most importantly young adults- who feel they are mature enough to get married and start a life of their own- should not have a sense of entitlement and expect from their parents/in-laws presents, gifts, and specific type of wedding. That would really help :)
Chassid of the Rebbe
I thought as Lubavitchers that we learn from our REBBE!! Since when do we take direction from the Satmars? If we want to learn about beating up our fellow Jews and shaving off their beards, then, yeah, I guess you could look to the Satmars for direction in that area.
I find this letter to be SO offensive!
Rony
In my hummble opinion with all due respect these guidlines are for dumb bells, respectively.
It’s undertsandable that not everyone can afford such lavish weddings but that’s at for the contious of every family on it’s own to make weather they would like to have a more modest wedding or not.
Why should one family have to be confined to another rule another burden it’s all to many restrictions and confinments, i actually think it’s anoying and getting out of hand becoming like the old little shtetel, if someone wants more fish more meat bigger band more flowers more people whats wrong with that????
I don’t think that the privalliged should lose out because someone else cann’t afford, for the same price there should be a takoneh on houses, cars clothing, no more buying Gucci,Gap,Prada,salvatore ferrigamo, we are opening up a huge bizare on Kingston and everyone will bye clothing from there, no more fancy cars we will tell leasing direct to only sell minivans, close down all restaurants only one local one, this actually sounds like communism what does everyone else reken???
ashreichem satmar!!!
Halevay ba unz gezogt!
bimheira beyomeinu
what !!!!!!
This is totally insane, you should be allowed to make you wedding how ever you wish, we live a free life.
Good Idea
This is a very smart idea. Lubavitch should adopt similar standards that are for our community. Weddings should not put families into extreme debt.
simcha b-pnimi
thank you so much for coming out with this. i agree with this so much. it just doesnt make sense to go all out and then have the stress later. also, the parents who do have some cash, do not get the help they need to keep up – the one’s that have nothing, end up getting everything paid for. less stress?? than those who have some money tucked away. so those that have some end up in the same situation as those who have none. its nuts quite honestly.
anon
If we can follow suit, it would be wonderful!
If satmar can follow these rules, it would be wonderful.
I do think there should be a few additions. Every kalla does deserve to get flowers for shabbos. The arrangements dont have to be of the $350 variety, but flowers are nice.
also, are you sure of the cubic zirconia bit?
after the wedding gifts are permitted? is taht when the cubic zirconia would be exchanged for a diamond?
please clarify.
who will be the first to follow?
how elaborate is the actual wedding going to be?
what about the $3000 cost of renting a kallahs gown for the one niight?
Proud CHer
why should we copy satmar? we live in a free capotalist society and BH some of us in CH can afford to make a decent simcha with some origniality why should we hold back becasuse others feel a need to copy?!
meir
it sounds good in theory, but the satmer guidliens seem to contradict the chabad way, it really seems to take away from peoples own induvuidality. we cant all aford to make such a huge simcho but some pople can and they should be allowed to celebrate acording to their own means. we shold all try and do hachnoses kaleh etc and give tseduka in any event.
wondering
What are the penalties if these new rules are not followed? Just wondering.
bochur
this is kind of weird
Common Sense
Sounds like a police state to me… It’s unfortunate that a community decided to impose these restrictions on individual families’ personal matters and to dictate what gifts to give and how many guests to invite. Everyone should use their common sense when planning a wedding. If someone has the means and wants to invite lots of guests, it’s their personal decision whether to do so or not, it’s none of community’s business. And if someone doesn’t have the money they shouldn’t have a lavish wedding, but, again, it’s not the community’s business to impose that decision on them. We live in a free country where individuals should use their common sense and not be babysat by the community. Instead of imposing regulations, better sponsor some financial advising classes for the community members. This will definitely be more beneficial.
Bluma B.
There are families in our community who do not have a lot of money and they make modest parties for their simchas that are very nice. Nothing fancy, but it’s just nice to get out and be with your friends and participate in other people’s happy occasion. And then there are people who have a little bit more money or have parents who can afford to make a fancy party and everyone looks forward to a fancy party. Because fancy parties are a little bit more interesting. There are more complicated centerpieces and the food is often just a little bit better. The venue is different than doing a party at the shul or chabad house. Of course, everyone judges the people who make the fancy parties, but that just comes with the territory. As long as people understand they aren’t EXPECTED to make a big, fancy, expensive party, then it’s not necessary to make everyone do exactly the same thing. I appreciate where Rabbi Hecht is coming from, but doesn’t he have balai baatam he has to impress?
Common Sense
Rony, you’re so right. This does sound like communism…
Just to add, a lot of my friends had very lavish weddings, whether they could afford them or not. We had a modest wedding with about 45 people. If we wanted to we could’ve spent lots of money and also have a lavish wedding, but we chose to save the money for the future family expenses. We never copied anybody. And we enjoyed our wedding, it was fun, and we could afford it. If we could make a choice not to copy anyone and have a wedding we could afford, why can’t other people make their choices, without laws or guidelines? I think imposing these guidelines should be offensive for people, like they don’t have their own brains or something…
Very Upset!
I can assure you that I can not afford a fancy wedding. However, I do NOT believe in the concept of a “nanny government” that micromanages one’s activities and restricts one’s freedoms!
We have no leadership!
What we should learn from our Satmareh brothers is that they have leadership
and we don’t!
what !!!!!! said
“This is totally insane, you should be allowed to make you wedding how ever you wish, we live a free life.”
The definition of a FRUM yid is one who adheres to Torah and Rabbanim.
You are more than welcome to “live a free life” aka frie. But if you’re honest and true to you’re friekiet then why bother with bris, Bar Mitzvah, Wedding and funerals. Try alternative life styles and parties they are more fun.
sencible
The reosen why rabonim started burying in tachrichin was exactly for this reosen. Jews used to be buried in fancy clothes and everyone tried to outdoo his neighbour. I am sure when they started that takono there were those who said dont tell us what to do and what about kovod hamais etc. etc. but it is now accepted by EVERYONE noone has to go into debt and EVERYONE IS HAPPY
Satmar Shea
They have a Rebbi or a manhig. Depending who you ask. We are in an after Gimmel Tammuz state. In that case, perhaps we should start opening our eyes towards the great pearls of wisdom from other Rebbi’s. Perhaps we can retain something of the yirai shmayim, chasidishkait and levush that even Lubavitch used to take pride in. Is Shea hecht insinuating a new direction? The idea of jumping ship. Salvaging what ever we have left in being chasidim. Learning and living with a Rebbi basar v”dam? Or is the yellow flag philosophy the new Chabad?
Well, someone beat us to it. Breslov perfected that approach.
to Chossid of the Rebbe
One time i am not sure if it was erve yom kippur or hoshanah rabba they ran out of lekach and the Rebbe told them to go call satmar apparently “they” thought it was a joke but the Rebbe asked a few minutes later nu did you call satmar yet… so dont be so hu hah hu ha we all are very proud that you are chassidish etc.. but you should learn some history,
Secondly in my opinion lechaims in the house are much more fun, however there are b’h shluchim that dont have a house to make it in,
In regards to weddings we are not and will never be like satmar b’h. nothing against satmar but we are chassidim of the rebbe and without a rebbe do lemata nothing unified can be accomplished we are not a “community” we are children of our father… the Rebbe. and shluchim have to make nice partys because they have balebatim and the way they make their weddings/bms etc are the way their respective communities percieve a “frum” simcha
Fed Up
1. The majority of our community is not as well off as the majority of the satmar community and they feel the need for takonos but we can afford to go into major debt for extravagant simchos. The minority who are gevirim in CH can spend the money they want to make lavish affairs, they can afford it and all know who those families are. The middle class that cannot afford it and that feels the need to impress others should be able to refer to limits set by the Rabbonim to avoid going into debt. This way there is no fear of “losing face” with the neighbors or friends. Everyone is equal. This would also make it easier for the Yesomim and BT without family who have to rely on Keren Chosson V’Kallah. They would have a chassuna just like everyone else and the Keren would not have to raise so much extra money to make their chassunes’s match the rest. And what about Bar Mitzvah’s that are now reaching the levels of Chassunas? What about the ones who cannot afford to make such a Bar Mitzvah but how can they let down and embarrass their son in front of his classmates?
2. Chas V’Sholom we should learn something positive from someone else. Ben Zoma says: who is wise, he who learns from everyone. Obviously there are a lot of unwise residents in this neighborhood.
3. if you skipped it read what In Debt & Flat Broke wrote above. Much of what he says is right on.
opinion from argentina
i totally agree with rony…i think the dumb one is the one who is worried on what others are gonna think about their wedding and invites people who he doesnt even get along with and has debts after that.. each one has to do the wedding he wants without thinking what others are going to think
What about shluchim?
What about shluchim who make beautiful simchas that the people in their communities can enjoy and appreciate?
If limitations would be put into place, A LOT of considerations would have to be made. Perhaps there could be SUGGESTED limitations?
Anonymous
Chassid of the Rebbe wrote:
“I thought as Lubavitchers that we learn from our REBBE!! Since when do we take direction from the Satmars? If we want to learn about beating up our fellow Jews and shaving off their beards, then, yeah, I guess you could look to the Satmars for direction in that area.
I find this letter to be SO offensive!”
Chassid of the Rebbe???
30 years have past since then and Boroch Hashem we now get along with them just fine. If you want to find Jews beating up Jews you can also find that today in 770- Infact you can get beaten up and nobody will say a thing or come to help you etc..
And one more thing…
Get over it, live with the times!
Plenty of our young guys work/have friends in Willemsberg…
yep
Hmm.
Yep, communism makes sense in theory, on paper. But thats about as far as it goes.
As we all know. It does not work in real life.
And thats about all.
realistic and poor
I think people should know themselves how much they can afford… If they are spending more than they can afford to keep up with the Joneses, making rules for a simcha is not going to solve their problems. What then? Make rules on what clothes they can buy? Which supermarkets to shop in? How many times a week you can have fleishig? People have to spend what they can afford. If you can only afford fake flowers, then you won’t have real ones… and you’ll survive, and your neighbor will have real ones. How is stoping your neighbor from having real flowers going to help you????
Kol sasson v-kol simcha
i’m pretty sure that the majority of the commenters are taking the letter too literally. i believe the point that shea makes in his commentary is that we should limit ourselves and not spend beyond what we can afford for whatever reason.
i don’t believe that the intent of this letter is to suggest that chabad adopts similar guidelines and restrictions (because, really, if such happened, it would not be followed). but, rather, is just a message that we should get a hold of ourselves.
as for “chassid of the rebbe”, chill.
Y M
This needs some further research however I remember seeing once that the Rebbe was asked about making such takonos for Lubavitch and the Rebbe refused. Can anyone confirm/ deny?
related to CEO
to the person who wrote this below:
YOU may not have any issues w/ being the best chassid of the Rebbe you can be, but some others do. WE can learn from everyone. As long as we do it with the Rebbe in mind and we improve, its fine. Its not like we’re chasvesh giving up chassidus to do it. Lighten up, they’re Jews and if that will help us do our avodah and come closer to Emes, then so be it.
Chassid of the Rebbe wrote:
I thought as Lubavitchers that we learn from our REBBE!! Since when do we take direction from the Satmars? If we want to learn about beating up our fellow Jews and shaving off their beards, then, yeah, I guess you could look to the Satmars for direction in that area.
I find this letter to be SO offensive!
also related to CEO
to the one who wrote below:
ORIGINALITY? Are you insinuating that MONEY makes originality?
I know someone who had her kids’ Doctor at their Bar Mitzva. It was a very decent, not too low budget but not overdone simcha. This very accomplished and respected Doctor wrote to her afterward that after all the overdone and off the track simchas he has been to lately, this one was indicative of what the concept of Bar Mitzva really is. Whats original? its not enough that we have family that can attend and be together in health? Halevai. Give me a break. Money does NOT make a unique simcha that is remembered or that is special.
Proud CHer wrote:
why should we copy satmar? we live in a free capotalist society and BH some of us in CH can afford to make a decent simcha with some origniality why should we hold back becasuse others feel a need to copy?!
Very smart!
*The expressed purpose of the guidelines is to increase joy at simchas, not to diminish it…*
With chochma. A rebbishe horaah.
It’s a shame this needs to arrive here from outside the community.
simcha
The takanos about 4 pieces of Jewelry would increase
the financial debt for the Chossons
family. Unless I’ve been out of crown heights too long…In Lubavitch there’s
an exchange of jewelry & watch at the
L’chaim. Other than that there’s no offical pressure to give more than that during the engagement period. Also, as far as the Kallahs familys gift to the
Chosson…a watch and Shas are the norm
but a Kiddush cup and Menorah is something that young couples purchase with their own money..(we did).
There’s one more thing the Satmar Takanos don’t mention and that’s the parents buying an apartment for their newly married children. We don’t need that extra pressure. I don’t think all of their Takonos apply to our community.
Don-t Be Narrow Minded
Chassid of the Rebbe wrote:
“I thought as Lubavitchers that we learn from our REBBE!! Since when do we take direction from the Satmars? If we want to learn about beating up our fellow Jews and shaving off their beards, then, yeah, I guess you could look to the Satmars for direction in that area.
In fact the Rebbe has told people that Untz Kenen Lernen foon Satmar Voo Tzu TuN In Gemilas Chesed.
the Geesh
very satmar like!
ps – it was the litvaks who came up with this idea first! but they said it in a more freindly manner.
you can be creative and yet affordable too.
Confused
Beautiful but howcome the satmar Rebbe can’t seem to follow any of these Takonos he has thousands of people at his simchas and they are very lavish??????
Shainy W
I just want to point out that, people a Bar Mitzvah is not supposed to be like by reform where its just a show………..who cares if they serve chocolate chip cookie or a cream puffs…. we are frum jews and we do not need to show off our money.
if you have extra money and you could do more, support a fellow jews simcha.
The reason the Kallah gets a nice gift is b/c we want to show the Kallah we are soo happy to have you join our family. So who cares if its $200 you are showing you care you dont have to buy $1000…..ahh but all the kallahs will show each other… and you dont want her to feel like she is worth less…….PEER PRESSURE
HASEM DIDNT GIVE MONEY TO SHOW IT OFF! and thats what you do, when you have to make a nice wedding bec……hey I have the money why shouldnt I?
Yitzchak
Thank you Rabbi Shea- as always your concerns are about your neighbors and community.
its quite clear that a rabbinic ban wouldn’t work, because of……., but how about people coming together on their own initiative and signing a pledge???
Really love Shea, but...
Just 2 questions:
1- Do the rebbeim themselves follow ANY of these “guidleines”?
2-Shea, great idea, did U cut down on your kids weddings?
In theory, doing things within our OWN means is a great idea, and we shouldn’t feel pressured, but I can learn this from others, not a group of people that are totally intolerant of other Jews, have denigrated MY REBBE (dont tell me to forget old times – I know from whence I speak), and wouldn’t hesitate to do it again
Shea, I love you, and you are the best this community has to offer, but I was a little surprised by this one….
Me
I’m not suggesting that it is a great idea that must be followed religiously, but for the losers who have issues with this just because the satmar are doing it, better watch yourself tomorrow. You might just walk into a pole, lol
tired of the pressure
all you nay-sayers are a bunch of grossly inconsiderate meshuggenehs who are completely missing the point. takanos have existed for thousands of years. why do we cover the challah when making kiddush? so that we develop sensitivity to PEOPLE’S feelings. yes people, ESPECIALLY children, are EXTREMELY farshmatted when their simchas are noticeably different than the rest of the group. in communities all over the world, where people have ACHDUS and consideration, simchas are made according to community guidelines. i am shocked and disappointed that people think it’s perfectly fine to trample all over their friends and neighbors like this.
Miriam
I was under the impression that the Rebbe was not in favor of ostentacious simchas. Photography and videography together can run close to 10K.
Remember that the Rebbe was against wall to wall carpets and Hollywood kitchens. I don’t think that making takanos would be against the Rebbe at all.
Balabatim of shluchim are not impressed when they see a shaliach blow a year’s salary on a one-night event. They are impressed by a freilech simcha, not by an elaborate one.
moshe der goilam
TO REB SHEA
great aritcle, but i would have wrote it woth a different headline, because the actual amount of money now spent in satmar after the takunois they have is still way more then we spendie the furniture they buy the other gifts the shabbos sheva brochois etc..
but if we really want to have a great way of saving the community money and avoidinng the peer pressure, i have heard of this idea
let us start with bar mitzvahs.
have you ever met a person who told you he is excited of going to a bar mitzvah ? even to a close family member or a close friens one? i have not.
now if the yeshivahs had the guts they would impliment the same rulse as the girls schools have in place for bat mitzvahs. (no fancy halls only in home or shuls) etc.
i say there are over 200 bar mitzvahs a year just in crown heights the average bar mitzvah cost upwards of $10,000.00 ( i say average because i know of alot that costs 20 and 30 thousand) you need to inclde the music pictures band hall food and all the clothes a family must buy because o the affair. we as a small community are spending over 2 million dollars a year just on this (and there is no money for tuition )
now the only reason i think the yeshivas are afraid to institute is. because they are the ones making the money from the hall rentals (how sad) and the only way this can work is if al the yeshivas in crown heights get together and impliment this by haveing parents sign a paper knowing the rules before hand. and if they break it they know the consiquenses.
yes the cateres and the music and photo and others may not make so much buisness. bh we are growing and there willbe more wedding and other ways to make up for that
anyway the only way the above will work is we a person like shea or some other who has the guts to take on the issue and get parents involved and the yeshivas to know what the parents want.
and by the way up until now there have been no letters or answers that the maveenim know of from the rebbe against this idea.
chazak
spent what I needed on my wedding...
hey, has anyone considered the plight of folks who make THEIR parnassah working at weddings and simchas?? hello? bands, caterers, photogs, etc??? by instituting such drastic cuts, you’ve just put several folks families out in the cold.
Alrighty Then
Firstly, let’s keep in mind, Shea Hecht does not know eveyrthing… in fact, i believe, it is far from that…
Learn from Satmar… reediculousness! Lubavitch has enough good people to learn from… lets get real… i work with a satmar, and still until today, you should here the jabs about lubavitch! Its amazing how they do that, and yet – Shea Hecht wants us to learn from them.
Totally shocking!
ZALMAN
The rebbe spoke out about lavish weddings but he never made takonos. So who are we to make takonos
Chaiya
The only way Moshiach will come is if we have Ahavas Yisroel towards ALL yidden. Even if they slight us it is no excuse to lower our standards and we should certainly not treat them as if they are an enemy!
Another Hecht says look to Shulch Aruch
Why not look to the Shulchan Aruch? This has been mentioned briefly in one of the notes, but it bears both repeating and explicating:
In the times of the gemara, people used to have “lavish” funerals, including very expensive burial shrouds made of bejeweled cloth etc. One of the great tanaim, Rabban Gamliel, decided to implement that from that time forward ALL people were to be buried in nothing more than simple linen shrouds. And, the great rabbi had the curage to be the very first to implement his takanah and at his funeral there was no extra money thrown away, and this pillar of Judaism was buried in but simple linen shrouds. The reason for the takanah, he expalined, was so that there be uniformity in the ceremoney which would ensre equal kavod for all emebers of the community – rich and poor alike. For this takannah and its origin, see Talmud Bavli, Kesubot 8b. See also Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah, 352:1. See also Talmud bavli, Moed Kattan, 27b where we see that Rabi Yehudah Hanasi himself (the person who compiled the Mishna), followed the view of Rabban Gamliel and was buried in simple shrouds for the reasons stated above.
Clearly, that same logic should (and perhaps DOES) halachaclly apply. Our halacha is imbued page after page with ensuring respect for ALL things in this world, own to a tiny insect. Should we not stand up for the respect of those who currently go into debt to pay for weddings and implement something to protect them? should we not honor chassanim and kallos whose parents – or they themselves – cannot afford?
The gemara in Moed Kattan and Kesubos makes note that poor people would actually not even bury their dead, since they could not keep up and were emabarrased to make a poor funeral. Thus, in its poignant way, the gemarrah says that “a death was harder on the relatives, than on the dead person himself”.
Yidden: we have a major issue here. Is not a chassan and Kallah entitled to the same respect as a dead person? don’t we so many requirements of being mesameach the chassan and kallah? Then why DON’T we eforce such takanos laid out above (or a modified version)? Doing so would enhace the kavod of EVRY chassan and Kallah, including those who don’t have thousands of dollars. Having takanos would also ensure shalom bayis for the ew couple, since a major bone of contension is where one side or both is still paying wedding debts off long after the wedding (especially when doing so from the wedding gift money itself).
So that people will not just dismiss me, I will address the two major concerns raised against this type of proposal:
1. “Nobody is forcing people if lesser means to follow the more wealthy among us, so why make everyone suffer just because SOME peope cannot afford.”
A. Well, I’m sure that many people made the same claim against Rabban Gamilel. However, he saw fit to include RICH people ALSO in his takanah because he KNEW that notwithstanding what LOGIC dictates, many poor people WOULD IN FACT follow the rich (or at least attempt to) so as not to embarrassed by their lesser means. In sum, like it or not, “poor” or even middle class people will be tempted to take out exorbitant loans to follow what richer people do to save their pride. Rabban Gamilel recognized this issue with regard to funerals, and its logic may, and probably should, apply to other Jewsih life cycle events as well.
The Gemarah cited above also explains that spending so much on such a ceremony causes undue waste – something definitely true of some weddings today.
2. “Why even consider following this idea – it came from satmar (ewwwwww)”
A. I am tempted to not even reply to this, since it clearly indicates immaturity from any peon writing it. Chazal tell us “Kabel es ho’emes mimi she’omro” – “Accept the truth from whomever says it” We also told that “eizehu chcham…halomed mekol adam” – who is wise, whomever learns from ALL persons“. Thus, people who do not want to learn from this idea merely because it came from Satmar, or from the yeshivish world is obviously not a ”chacham – wise person” according to our tradition. If Jews are anything, they are an open people who are willing to accept a good idea when it is presented to them, especially when the idea comes from a place recognized by torah itself – another communities’ Rov/Rebbe.
If someone would like to respond, no problem. However, please respond with LOGIC and not simple emotional harangues. Also, if you don’t agree with me personally, I have no problem. However, please do address the gemara cited above (as it applies to every Jew) and explain why its logic should not apply.
MW
We absolutely don’t need rules. It is every individual’s prerogative to make their own guidelines. If you know that you cannot afford a lavish party, then DONT send out 800 invites. Who are you keeping up with?? Seriously, nobody is impressed at how many piece orchestra you hired. And even if people do give two hoots (which sounds totally vain to me!), since when are we living for everybody’s approval?? You will only put yourself into greater debt. The problem I find is that people are so into keeping the “standard” that they totally overextend themselves. Yes if you can afford a huge lavish party, do it gezunter heit. The fact is that we live in a free country.. nobody is going to be thrown out of the neigborhood for making a party within their means!! stop trying to impress everbody!
Ariella Schonberger
Rabbi Hecht is definetely on the right track so YOU GO RABBI! My husband and I were married 25 years ago in a very, very small wedding and had no regrets that we didn’t put on more of a show.
tired of the pressure
perhaps the Rebbe wanted this to come from us. the truth is, that there wouldn’t be a need for takanos, if the wealthy and influential would lead the way on their own. what a relief and a brocha that would be. i’ll bet none of them have the guts to do it.
Boruch
ZALMAN wrote:
The rebbe spoke out about lavish weddings but he never made takonos. So who are we to make takonos
====
Zalman – a Lot has changed in 14 years. If the Rebbe was here with us physically there is a good chance he would lay down rules. We cannot keep on going on about how the Rebbe never did this or that. Times change. We need to look upto our leaders (please let me know when you find them), and listen to them, as they (I hope!) would lay down the rules using the Rebbe’s ideals.
point taken - start with Purim
Anyone notice the irony of all these comments interspersed with ads for very lavish, overdone shalach monos?!?
Now, there’s a place to start, and I for one, am sticking to the Achdus baskets this year – I am so much more relaxed about Purim, and I hope to have time to go on mivtzoim instead!
anybody to join me?
MR. PRACTICAL WRITES...
what about shluchim – they are either part or not part of the community but if they do a wedding in CH it must live up to their community’s standard.
also – i didn’t like the part about restricting gifts – i believe that all gifts help couples financially and shouldn’t be restricted!!
The Rebbe-s View?
I have heard that the Rebbe responded, we don’t make takanos on simchos–but I don’t have a definite source. However, it is definitely verifiable that the Rebbe was very against lavish displays. Many people (I don’t know if they want their names mentioned in a public forum, but I have heard them speak publicly about this) have had personal haroas from the Rebbe to make their simchos more simply, although they were very wealthy and could easily afford it (and wanted to!).
All the same, the specific takanos are a bit much. (It seems some communities have much more of a need to be told to hold back; CH is a LOT less megushemdik than many other communities, believe it or not.)
And the Rebbe never did make takanos–surely, 14 years ago people struggled too, as there were takanos in existence in other communities at the time.
In conclusion, we all must bear in mind that we have a responsibility for our fellow man, and to keep things tasteful yet not ostentatious (=showy). There are many families in CH who already are careful about this, though they can afford more. I think starting with the schools making new rules for bar mitzvah is a wonderful idea, and far less severe than making extreme takanos on the specifics of weddings.
May we all celebrate simchos only!
Sarah M.
To be honest I think that probably the Satmar community does need it. No need to criticize them!!!
Being recently married, I do know the cost of a wedding. Personally, I think that if the parents and the soon-to-be-wed think about really what they can afford and set themselves limits- honest limits- then people would not spend money they do not have. Parents also-in my opinion- need to set limits and tell their children “this is up to what I can afford” and if the child really wants it then pay for it, if you’re old enough to get married- you’re old enough to think maturely and work for it. People can have a beautiful wedding and not pay a lot. the important things are the photographer and video because THAT stays after the wedding. Who cares about food: pp complain anyways, and who goes to wedding to eat!!!
A wedding is just the beginning, and married life cost a lot of money- put money then, to help them start their life- not on the wedding. However, it is pp’s choice and we’re free to think and do what we want.
a proud Lubavitcher
Those guidlines are not followed inWilliamsburg – but rather where Reb Arele lives – in monroe – where he can controll his crowd! Parents should learn how to tell their children no! If they are old enough to get married then they are old enough to know what their parents can and cannot afford for their wedding.My son’s bar mitzvah is coming up next year – and all I am having is a party for his friends and a Shabbos with our extended families.
U R Missing the point!
Key word here is LEARN from, NOT COPY!
Rabbi Hecht is not saying we should make rules – just scale back. And incase you were wondering things got crazy recently, I know for a fact that the Rebbe was not into spending tons of money – he was even against entire families traveling over seas for weddings.
out-of-towner
i heard about a family in toronto who, for their son’s bar mitzva, made a kiddush in shul shabbos day and then made a seudah in their home for the boy’s class and some community members. that’s the way to go!
as for takanos, i don’t know one way or the other. i think people need to stop trying to be so fancy and do what they can afford, and not feel ashamed or less-than. chassidisher weddings used to be in people’s homes, after all. the point of the wedding is the ruchnius, not the gashmius.
my family lives within its budget, and when it comes time to make big simchos, we’ll continue to do so.
CP
There are some very valid points here on both sides.
I do not think it was Shea Hechts intention to copy satmars list , as some people think, rather to set our own guidelines.
However , while I think it is a great thing, I do not believ it is something yo can force people to do – we are all adults- not in playgroup where morah has to share th etoys evenly or some kids will cry. that is how life is – some have more money than others- just deal with it!
I think a more effective approach would be to create an awareness ( which I believe this article has succeeded in doing) so that we can stop focusing on the gashmius part of a simcha so much.
I also want to point out that it is not just an issue of keeping up with the joneses when it comes to simchas. In CH the focus is so much on gashmius- what brand names you and your kids are wearing, what designer you are using to do your house, what car yo drive etc.. There is a tremendous pressure to “keep up”
Lets try as a community to focus on more important things in life like chinuch of our children rather than what they are wearing, like sholom bayis rather than what decorator you use etc.
Proud Lubavitcher
Absolute arrogance!
One of the fundamentals of Chasidisim is to learn something in avodas hashem, from everything you see.
Refusing to draw a lesson from fellow yiddin, especially from a Rav’s Takonoh is downright ARROGANCE!
A true “proud” Lubavitcher chassid can learn from anyone! Satmar, or whoever!
Thats a little nuts!!
After seeing the “horse ‘n’ buggy” at tonights wedding in Crown Heights, how can one not agree that guidelines must be set. That was complete ridiculousness. how can i a person still be comfortable with himself after wasting money on something so silly?
Rebbe Takonoh?
Rebbe make a Takonoh?
Takonos are for rabbanim to make not the nassi hador!
Theyre locale and need to be addressed locally they’re in the rav’s domain.
Did you forget what a rebbe is, or you Just never got it!
Bernie Gross
In many communities they have many expensive parties leading up to the wedding like henna parties,l’chaims,vorts, showers…. and we all know they dont like showers in satmar
CS
I think it’s only slightly unfair to question Rabbi Hecht as to what he does for his children’s weddings. The reality is that there are currently no such guidelines in place, and therefore what Rabbi Hecht’s children’s weddings were like is irrelevant. I’m sure that if gudelines were to be implemented, Rabbi Hecht would follow them.
It irks me to no end, when people call themselves Chassidim of the Rebbe and then proceed to talk about fellow Jews in the most disrespectful terms. The Rebbe was all about Ahavas Yisroel, so respect for fellow Jews should be a priority for Chassidim of the Rebbe.
I also think it is arrogant to believe that we cannot learn anything from other sects of Chassidim. Again. The Rebbe was an example of humility and i think as Chassidim of the Rebbe we should bear this in mind too. It’s possible to learn from every person.
I think too, that we should not assume that Rabbi Hecht is suggesting that we follow the Satmar Guidelines as stated, I believe that Rabbi Hecht is merely suggesting that as in Satmar,we too should impliment guidelines SPECIFIC TO OUR COMMUNITY.
Crown Heights IS different
What CH needs is some competition, that underprices OT and the Razag. Other communities, like Monsey, have multiple Yeshivas who provide their own catering, throw in the hall and mashgiach for free, actively compete and pursue clients for business. Here in both halls, you either take it, with all their inflated prices and add ons, because if you want to get married in the Rebbe’s Shchuna, you can’t leave it!
to another hecht
KOL HAKOVOD,that was the BEST answer.
to all those who say “let those who can’t afford, do it more simply”, i have to tell you that it takes literally moving mountains, just for a bar mitzvah. and i don’t even know if you’re ALLOWED to do it to a chosson and kallah, because of their kovod.so THINK AGAIN
Hirshel
Actually the Rebbe DID address this very issue many times, and therefore we don’t need to copy Satmar, but rather look into the Rebbe’s Sichos (yes also after gimel tamuz we don’t need the pearls of other rebbi’s as one poster here wrote), and we will find that the Rebbe made the following points countless times:
1) NOT TO FEEL THE NEED TO COPY THE “SHOCHENTE” AND “THE NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR”
[i.e. the Rebbe didn’t say that the rich neighbor can’t have a bigger Chassunah just so that the poorer shouldn’t feel left out, but rather that the poorer should live within his means like yidden lived for hundreds of years, where the richer lived a richer lifestyle and the poorer lived a more restricted lifestyle. Until America noone knew of the concept that everyone is “entitled” to have EVERYTHING, and if that’s not possible then it’s not RIGHT for anyone to have it – btw we witness the same insanity in our chinuch system here in America – copied from the public school system – that it’s not politically correct to have classes for smarter children and classes for less smarter children, and we can’t gear the class to the smarter kids because then the others loose out (that the smarter kid looses out that’s ok) and therefore the entire nation is becoming dumber and dumber, but that’s for another discussion.]
2)THAT HATORAH CHASSA AL MOMOINOM SHEL YISROEL, AND THEREFORE MONEY SHOULDN’T BE SQUANDERED, BUT USED RESPONSIBLY, AND PEOPLE (ALSO THE RICH) SHOULD MAKE HUMBLE SIMCHOS, LIKE NO BIG VORT JUST A LECHAYIM ETC.
[i.e. the richer could make richer weddings but within reason, and it is for sure not chassidish to SHOW OFF, and one should remember that money could be used leshem shomayim or leshem taive and the difference between them – either raise to kedusha or to lower to kelipos -, but that’s not our business to tell him how to serve his Master, just like we won’t forbid anyone to eat an icecream, veda”l.]
$1300 Money Saver
I just want to say that I totally agree with Rabbi Hecht. Instead of using real dishes by my wedding, we used plastic and saved ourselves $1300 which was then given to us to use to pay our rent. What is the thing that people will remember from the wedding? Yes, you can say that they’ll remember the food, but the ikkur is the simcha, the dancing and the whole ruach. For days after my wedding people kept telling me what an amazing wedding it was because of the leibidikeit and the fact that I took the time to dance with everyone and even every once in a while to wave to one of the men on the other side. This is what makes the wedding, not the flowers, the 5 piece band, and all that other stuff. So what that I got all my stuff from Ten Yad – does that make me a loser? People have to be aware that a wedding is not money it’s the simcha. Thank you Rabbi Hecht very much for writing this article. I’m very happy that someone finally thought about speaking up in the Lubavitch community
attention hirshel
kindly read “Another Hecht says look to Shulch Aruch”
your comments are well-intentioned, but somewhat off the mark. as for chinuch, we’ll leave that one to matzliach mechanchim.
yacov
the spirit of the takonos is what’s important.the gerer chasidim have limits on number of ivitees + the type of food served in the simcha and it works!
Chatzkel
Was it not the Alter Rebbe who said that what is permitted, one should not do in haste? Was it not in during the Alter Rebbe’s imprisonment that Chabad began the custom of not wearing tallis clips because all of the anash sold their tallis clips to ransom the Alter Rebbe?
Just because we might B”H have the money to have a lavish simcha doesn’t make it INCUMBENT on us to have a lavish simcha. Let us let the Alter Rebbe’s words guide us here. No one’s saying we should adapt the Takkonos Satmar; we should, though, let the idea of modesty certainly guide us.
Gut’n shabbos.
Neomi gniwisch
Love the general concept of this!! My father-in-law sheyiche loves this way of thinking too…. I