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Why Do Hasidim Live Like Saudi Women?

by Debra Nussbaum Cohen – Forward

It looked, this week, like there might be progress for women in Saudi Arabia. King Abdullah granted women the right to vote, and to run for election to municipal councils and be appointed full voting members of the Majlis Al-Shura, a government advisory group. According to a New York Times editorial this week, however, women will still need the approval of a male family member.

And of course women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. As the Times opined:

The list of fundamental rights still denied to Saudi women is long and shameful. Men — their fathers or husbands — control whether they can travel, work, receive health care, attend school or start a business.

Now comes the news that a woman has been sentenced to be flogged 10 times for the crime of driving a car.

Dozens of Saudi women were arrested in June after they took to the streets in a coordinated demonstration of driving. Their legal cases have not yet been resolved.

But it’s not just in the faraway land of Saudi Arabia that women are denied rights that preclude personal autonomy.

There are Jewish women not far from where I now sit whose rights are similarly curtailed.

As I noted in this Sisterhood post in June, the Skver Hasidic community of New Square, N.Y. does not permit women to drive.

In the Lubavitch Hasidic community of Crown Heights, Brooklyn, women are not permitted to vote in the elections that choose representation for both internal religious issues at the main synagogue, 770, and for local communal matters through the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council.

Voting is limited to men. There is a single vote permitted per household, but there are plenty of households in Crown Heights headed by women. So those households go unrepresented in the organizations that have great control over much of what goes on in the Jewish community there.

We could consider it simply an internal community matter but for the fact that according to its 2010 tax filing, close to 94 percent of the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council’s funding came from government aid.

This means that $2,896,752 of the $3,081,651 it reported in income for 2009 came from our tax dollars.

So there is the question of whether it is appropriate for an organization like the CHJCC guided by religious principles that contravene American law should benefit from public funding.

Then there is the larger question of why women permit themselves to be disempowered in this way.

We do not live in a kingdom ruled by an earthly monarch, as we would if we were in Saudi Arabia.

We live in a country where we have freedom of personal choice. Yes, even if that choice is to be willingly deprived of things which are at the core of personal autonomy.

I just can’t understand why any woman would want to.

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48 Comments

  • Woman Voter

    She’s right. Everyone knows she’s right so how come the CHJCC gets away with getting government funds & not giving us any say?

    Some of us are actually educated beyond a 5th grade Oholei Torah level. We are professionals with advanced degrees, business know-how, and as women, can multi-task.

    We can, on the whole, speak, read, and write in an articulate manner. Yet we are still living in the 19th century when it comes to equality & a voice in what affects us & our families.

    She’s also right when she questions why we allow ourselves to be disempowered. My thoughts are we go on strike. No cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands or any services for our erstwhile husbands until the CHJCC constitution is amended.

    If you have any better ideas, I’m listening. Now back to the kitchen.

  • Just like Saudi Arabia?

    B“H
    It is embarrassing to read an article title on a frum ”news source” that compares our community and way of life to the hedonistic, sexist and brutal society in Saudi Arabia. There are no plans for action in this article. This is just an article to stir controversy. This is junk just like what the NYT prints, uninformed, biased and outright ridiculous. Seriously, who is the editor for this site?

  • IF ONLY PEOPLE KNEW!!! theyd love chabad

    if ONLY the left-anti-frum jews were properly exposed to the Rebbe’s teachings on the elevated status of women in jewish life

    how they were entrusted & empowers to to THE most important job on the planet!

    if only they knew, why women are not required todo as many mitzvos (bec they are naturally already more spiritually “there” perfected -mitzvos serve to bring one to a higher level of completion, & women have less Klipa to be Metaken!

    if only they knew how women are celebrated as THE cause foe Geulas mitzrayim … as well as the final Galua,

    If only they knew how the Rebbe empwerd women to be equal partners in all chabad houses

    if only they knew how the laws of tznius are there to cherish & honor the jewish women as special & sacred (not free for all) that they are viewed as Royalty & Must dress in a manner befitting a princes! …the Rebbe encouraged women to get the Nice possible Sheitul! Too look beautiful while not compromising her dignity!

    if only they knew that the reason women are not to be flaunted visually is because we view them as far more to offer than their external beauty!

    True respect is to refrain from casually touching a women for gratification unless you cherish her soo much that you wish to live the rest of your life with her, until then you’ll respect her boundaries, so that she has more profound intimacy with her future soul mate in marriage.
    -You show her that you’ll stick around even without… She is worth waiting for!

    If only they knew how Tora mandates that a man must honor & respect his wife more than his own body & self!

    the List goes on & on

    thanks to the anti-frum-= propaganda by the leftists media & Hollywood, the Truth is a well kept secret.

  • Sam Krause

    Dear Debra,

    Ask any woman in Crown Heights if she objects to not being able to vote. I bet you wont find one. If you studied our religion a little deeper and didn’t judge it from you femmenist perspective, you’d understand.

    We regard women as holy and seperate from the mundane. Women don’t get involved in the dirty business of politics. They are considered too pure, clean and holy….we want to keep them that way.

    Let women be more like women and not stoop down to a man’s level.

  • So much $

    How come everyone I know who has tuned to the JCC for help has been turned away empty handed? Where is all this money going?

  • #7

    I am a woman in Crown Heights and i object not being able to vote, and even more, for not being given the opportunity to do so.
    How much more mundane can you get than housework?!! You cant say whatever suits you in a single situation, it has to apply everywhere. If housework can be elevated by the women, the how much more so politics, something that requires a lot of “elevation”.
    Dont be scared.. its not that bad..

  • If woman ran the world

    Men would be forced to purchase overpriced clothes every season.
    Overweight men would be encouraged to wear girdles.
    Shopping would be considered an aerobic activity.
    Men who designed women’s shoes would be forced to wear them.
    Men would earn 70 cents for every dollar women make.
    All toilet seats would be nailed down.

  • Speaking about Saudi Arabia........

    in our midst. I see these Saudi Arabian ladies asking for money on Kingston Ave. on Erev Shabbos and especially today on Erev Yom Tov the street is full of Saudi women masquerading with baby in carriage as if they are Jewish women! BEWARE we have enough of our own that need our support. We don’t need our streets filled with fakers and takers.

  • Andrea Schonberger

    In my opinion it all boils down to simple misogyny. Why should I hate men? I don’t and that’s because my ego is secure. Mysogynists have insecure egos and are threatened when they feel that women are encroaching upon “their” territory, like driving and voting. I drive and vote and I’m still a woman which proves that driving and voting does not a man make.

  • Woman Voter

    Dear Sam Krause

    I’m combining my answer to you with #11 & the last line of #12. Are your brains are nailed shut in the toilet? You are really out of touch, unless you’re being deliberately disingenuous & facetious, in which case your sense of humor needs an adjustment.

  • Mendy Hecht

    I would doubt whether Ms. Cohen bothered to ask a single Crown Heights woman why she accepts the rules of a private community organization before painting them with a very broad (and bigoted) brush.

    It’s also important to note that no “rights are curtailed” in Crown Heights or New Square. Any woman who wishes to leave is entitled and free to do so. The CHJCC has no power over women as neither does New Square over any woman.

    In Crown Heights, if a woman insists on voting in CHJCC elections, she will be respectfully explained what the rules are. In New Square, a woman driving will be respectfully asked to cease, or maybe leave if she continues. New Square’s rules are no different than, say, a large retirement community’s rules: You don’t keep them, you’re asked to go. And being asked to go is not tantamount to “repression” or “violation of rights”–it’s just respecting local private rules.

    By the way, it’s very interesting that the primary argument against women voting in CHJCC elections–one vote/one voice per family–is the same argument made by the anti-suffragists over 100 years ago; they were concerned for the breakdown of the family.

    Now, granted, that may have not happened (though some would argue the nuclear family of today is not the nuclear family of yesteryear, but the concept of a woman voting through the pen and voice of her man is a sound one–at least on paper.

    One thing we can all agree on is that marriages and families should be strong and united. Does that mean there should only be one vote per family/marriage? I don’t know. But that’s the real issue here.

  • not jewish

    the writer of this article is a feminist first and then a jew.

    They have to stop trying to make their faux religion something it is not.

    Also interesting how she is so concerned with taxpayer money, just because it is going to a jewish org th hat doesn’t follow her religion.

    And all that is without actually gating into voting or the corrupt JCC, which are completely not her business. Liberal noisemakers like her have to be ignored, nothing more.

  • Professional

    Im happy to live a torah life, and if that includes not voting in kehillah elections, I have kabolas ol and respect for halacha.

  • #5 agreed!

    you shouldv mentiond the Rebbe’s rule to hubands, in all matters of the house settling down, kids etc man must consult & deffir to his wife’s comforts, OPINION & POINT OF VIEW.

  • #13 IS RIGHT!!! ITS VERY SUSPICIOUS!

    they are ARABS! infiltrating CH to observe… they are using babies in carriages to play on peoples compassion, ive watched her make $10+ in 5 min!!

    they use the tzdaka as a pretense to survail!

    just my hunch!

    try offering them follow up assistance they declined my offer to have an agency provide them food & rent… WHY??

  • to #1, i know who you are,

    you have used these exact words verbatum,

    for the rest of you… this is she is not a local, nor is she chabad!

    not very nice to misrepresent yourself, just to vilify & spew your resentment issues

  • To Andrea 14

    Why do you feel stop compelled to put the hate label on anything that does not agree with you? You claim to be so secure with yourself, so try for a change to consider that just because someone does not she with you, out doesn’t mean they ‘hate’ women.

    A vast majority of people I know want nothing to do with the JCC (myself included), and could care less who votes. Remember that this is a communal and not governmental election, taking place within and to represent a community that chose this way notwithstanding radical feminism.

    have a happy, healthy, sweet new year.

  • moshe

    i thinks its about time woman should vote. or one vote per household man or woman…there is nothing untznious about voting having a say.

  • To #13

    You’re a little misinformed, but that’s forgiven given the fact that you’re from CH, and most people are uneducated. People who have their kids collect money are gypsies.

  • Proud Religious Jew

    A Jewish woman chooses to live a Jewish life. She is not forced to do so by barbaric punitive measures as is the case in many middle eastern nations. To compare the two is a desperate exercise in futility by some extremist ‘liberal’ factions. These so called ‘liberals’ have issues of obsession with Jews who choose to live in accordance with their tradition. And, may I suggest, more than a little jealousy is involved in their constant attempts to attract the attention of religious people with rude, uncivil behaviour? – After all, who wouldn’t want to be confident, beautiful, and beloved as so many of the women in our community are? I guess when you are too lazy to make the effort to become a decent, civil human being- it’s easier to use as a target the very people who are living the life you want to live.

  • to #12

    You’re a fool. The last thing you would want is having toilet seats nailed down. A spring might be smarter.

  • moishe

    the most stupidest article ive read in a long time maybe we should have women rabbis in ch also

  • women should vote

    I cannot believe that there are still educated, semi intelligent people who think that it is okay for women not to be allowed to vote.

  • proud woman

    AND GLAD THAT I DONT NEED TO GET INVOLVED IN DIRTY POLITICS! YES, MY HUSBAND DOES IT AND IM HAPPY TO BE OUT OF IT!!

  • BCH

    One vote per household is OK, kinda. But then what about widows and divorced women? Why should they be denied the right to participate in choosing communal leadership?

  • disappointed

    So, as a nice Jewish girl, you would write an article that would put the idea in people’s minds that Crown Heights should not receive government funding? Are you willing to take the responsibility for that? I think this article is irresponsible and vindictive. I don’t understand how you could write such a thing. And Jewish women are not publicly whipped for their independent behavior. How you could equate the two is mind-blowing. It shows how far you are trying to score points or else just expressing yourself as a self-hating Jew.

  • TO MADAM NUTTBAUM - COHEN

    all you people are a bunch of brainless twits. The Jewish nation is here today not because of twits like you but because we followed a set of rules set down by G-d in his Holy Torah. and mini little Crown Heights still tries to abide by those rules and that includes laws of Tznius including voting etc. True their are unfortunately a number of women here who have decided their own set of tznius rules but that sure as hell doesn’t make it right or legal. so before madam nussbaum – cohen goes shooting her mouth off let her do some learning and find out what G-D (the one who allows her to breath and walk and talk and write her nonsense) decreed – NOT LUBAVITCH!!!!

  • proud to be a frum Jewish woman

    All you women’s lib people – please get a life! It’s not the 70’s anymore!

    I’m a Jewish, frum, single-again mother, who’s well-educated, and baruch HaShem earning a very nice salary from my professional position (even after taking a more than a decade long leave of absence to be a stay-at-home-Mom and raise my children).

    I am happy to live in CH, and actually CHOSE to move here from a black-hat, litvish community.

    I have no need or desire to prove myself, or to vote in the CH elections, just as I have no desire to put on tefillin or lain from the Torah while wearing a pink tallis R”L.

    I am a Jewish woman. I am proud to be an akeris habayis. I am happy to live my life the way the Aibishter wants me to live my life. Oh, and I feel much more fulfilled than Debra Nussbaum Cohen, or the sympathisers of this rediculous article can ever hope to be.

    G-d put the Jewish woman on a pedistle – and you would jump off into the mud? So sad.

  • by the way

    You’re headline suggests that Lubavitch woman would be sentenced to flogging for driving, please don’t compromise your credibility for the sake of sensational headlines like some other local news sites..

    Note how they dedicate one line to New Square but go into depth about Crown Heights (I’m assuming the New Square Community Council receives quite a few tax dollars themselves). I guess we set ourselves up by claiming to be an organization of universal values

  • I feel sorry for her

    From the tone of her diatribe, this is a woman with a personality or mental disorder. I seriously doubt that she has any real friendships or successful relationships. I really feel for her. She clearly doesn’t respect herself or other women and, therefore, can’t accept the fact that women actually make their own choices about religion and community and lifestyle; that they are not going to change their direction in life and a happy and fulfilled existence simply because this poor, obsessed woman wants everyone else to be as miserable as she is. Why are you publishing her tirades?

  • a crown heights resident

    Please take this article with a grain of salt. Mrs. Nussbaum Cohen is married for many years to a man who is a former Lubavitcher.

  • #38

    yup shes clearly struggling inside, & projecting her insecurities & out on others

  • not in CH

    The NYT as a rule when criticizing ANY group , makes sure they connect the story to observant Jews, its the politically correct thing to do at the NYT

  • FINALLY!

    I’ve wondered about this for years. I’m glad this article is bringing this important point out for discussion. There is absolutely NO reason why women in CH should not be able to vote!! Shame on us!

  • just like the good ole days...

    even if you disagree with Ms. Nussbaum Cohen, there is no need for baseless attacks as many of the responders do agree that it is 2011 and woman should finally have the right to vote in their neighborhood council.

  • Why should women vote?

    Women should be on the ballot. If women would ran the Community Council – most or all of the community problems would be solved. Allow women to be elected!

  • to #43

    “Many of the responders do agree that it is 2011, etc.” Such an interesting comment. First of all, who is posting here? Do you know if it is a true representation of all the chassidim in Crown Heights or a handful of people who respond over and over again…. or a group of people who have time to be on the internet as opposed to others who are busy with other things. And second, since when does majority rule when it comes to determining the customs of the chassidim? What does 2011 have to do with it?! Are you saying that women did not have the right to vote in community elections in 1843 but now in 2011 they have suddenly earned the right because…? Chassidic life is not determined by vote but by what has been passed down to us by the Rebbeim, in this case, whether for tznius or other spiritual reasons. I was once on a board of directors in Crown Heights and heard that the Rebbe was against a woman serving on a board with men. When I heard that I was thrilled to get off the board. When we start blurring the fences, we insensitize ourselves, and the rest is history. But it takes a Rebbe to make it clear to us.

  • Aviv Imanuel

    @36. proud to be a frum Jewish woman

    Well, I am also proud of you. It takes a very secure and intelligent person to make a statement like yours.

    Yes, G-d put the Jewish woman on a pedistle – and, unfortunately millions have decided to jump off into the mud, it aches me when Jewish women do that. No wonder the world is so messed up.

    Bottom line is this, and ironically, Ms. Cohen basically proved at the end what a waste of time and space was her article when she wrote…“We live in a country where we have freedom of personal choice. Yes, even if that choice is to be willingly deprived of things which are at the …”

    In a free society, we live and choose, that simple.

  • Women are able to vote

    Just to clarify some of the ranting that is going on here- women are able to vote. Just not in the CHJCC elections. There are plenty of women’s organizations here that do not include men and you don’t see them clamoring to join.

  • rg

    Knowledge is power. Women with knowledge have power. Powerful women are scary to men of any culture, creed, or belief. It is time for women to realize that strict religion, corrupted by patriarchal moldings, is oppresive and not chosen but dictated by those who do not represent women at all!