Posted to Communal Matters on
by Sonja Sharp - DNAInfo
Education advocates hope this black and white billboard in Brooklyn will catch the eye of parents in the borough's large Orthodox Jewish community, where more than 84,000 students attend religious schools, many of which do not meet legal minimum requirements for instruction in English, science and math.

Huge Billboard Targets Failings of Orthodox Jewish Schools

Education advocates fed up with a lack of English, math and science in some Jewish parochial schools have taken their frustration to the street — or, more accurately, to a huge billboard overhanging the BQE.

Activists from New York’s Orthodox Jewish community say the Department of Education is failing to enforce legal minimum standards for basic education in some yeshivas.

The activists said that when they tried to buy ads in the city’s prominent Yiddish-language newspapers to bring attention to the shortfall in instruction, they were refused space. So they bought the billboard.

“It’s your mitzvah,” their message read on Prospect Avenue Tuesday. “It’s the law.” 

A DNAinfo New York investigation earlier this year uncovered huge scholastic gaps at many of Brooklyn’s most prominent yeshivas — schools that serve more than 84,000 students, a third as many as attend the borough’s public schools.

Educators continue to flout that law, and officials continue to ignore it, the investigation found.

The billboard includes a quote in Hebrew from Talmud, which says a person must teach his son a trade, said activist Naftuli Moster, whose organization YAFFED (Young Advocates for Fair Education) has spent more than a year lobbying city and state education officials to enforce “equivalency of instruction” rules in the city’s crowded Jewish schools.

“Obviously, nowadays yeshivas should take on that role as messengers of the parents,” Moster said.

At Williamsburg’s enormous United Talmudical Academy, male students receive fewer than six hours of general instruction a week for four years, while Crown Heights’ Oholei Torah doesn’t teach English or math at all, the investigation found. 

“Our strategy has always been to get people from within the community to speak up and demand a change in the current education system, where 14-year-olds spend 14 hours a day without learning a single word of English, math, science, history or geography,” Moster said.

“All are subjects that schools are required to provide by law, and the government is required to ensure that schools do.”

Instead, the city DOE has ignored schools under its supervision that graduate students without Regents diplomas — many of them functionally illiterate in English, DNAinfo New York found.

The DOE did not immediately return calls for comment.

In parts of Borough Park and Williamsburg, it’s common to find young men who were born in New York, educated all their lives in Brooklyn and yet struggle to hold a simple conversation in English.

“Just a few weeks ago I tried putting ads in a few Jewish newspapers. They were rejected,” Moster said.

“It had some different wording, more text. It said, ‘Your son deserves better.'”

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126 Comments

  • Comrade Yossele

    So let me get this straight:

    We have to sign a government form for bris milah
    Our children must have government approved education
    Our mosdos are investigated for terrorism by the IRS for being religious and/or pro-israel
    And we are being observed by the government 24/7 without warrents.

    Is this the USSR?

  • Dovid

    We must give our children what they deserve, and that is a basic education. So many people I speak with agree with me. I’m ashamed that Crown Heights has the LOWEST level of education from any of the other communities around.

    • Milhouse

      You know very well the Rebbe’s opinion on that. If you don’t like it, why do you live in his shchuna?

    • wake up

      we are Jewish. We have a Torah education. So do not go and say we have the lowest level of education! We have the highest of the entire world. It all depends on who you live your life for- hashem or the world?

    • G-d Bless the boys...

      But I think the Rebbe wanted the boys to be fully literate in Hebrew or Yiddish. Most boys going into mesivta can’t write a coherent 3 sentence paragraph in ANY language. How are they supposed to learn the Rebbe’s sichos if they don’t understand Hebrew, Yiddish or English? We are failing our kids, and don’t blame this on the Rebbe!

    • Dovid

      Thank you! Very well said. In your quest to put on extreme tunnel vision you forgot that you don’t educate your kids (“kids” includes all of us) in BASIC SIMPLE education. Fine, so make sure your kids are illiterate and blame the Rebbe, but why is there ZERO Hebrew or even Yiddish writing curriculum?!!

      Go ahead and sweep it under the rug, but Lubavitch has the WORST education system out there. The bucherim learn very little in Yeshiva and any bucher reading this knows what I’m talking about. Even worse Bucherim come out of Yeshiva with very low confidence and zero skill.

      Again, put your head in the sand and then cry why so many kids choose to lead an alternative lifestyle.

  • Anonymous

    Please pay attention, Crown Heights yeshivos! Yes, we certainly want our children to uphold the highest standards of orthodoxy, but not teaching them English subjects limits their prospects and sets them back.

  • Milhouse

    “Activists from New York’s Orthodox Jewish community”

    The people behind this campaign are not from the Orthodox community, they are people who have left – שנה ופירש

    • Chaim

      “Mikabel es huemes m’mi sheumeruh, afiluh fuhn a nit yid”

      -Sicha 16 Tamuz Mem Hey I believe.
      (I am left, a long time ago…)

    • Milhouse

      When apikursim are campaigning for something, that’s the best sign that the emes is the opposite. This is the same project that the maskilim yimach shemom started, and that all our Rabbeim fought against. Why are you calling it emes?

  • it's all an error

    The ad should not have said “emunot” but instead should have said “EMUNAH”. Indeed our kids need to learn and know emunah which can only be achieved exclusively with a Torah true education and not with, lehavdil a thousand times, math and geography

    • CR

      It says “omanut”; literally, a trade or craft. The same phrasing is used in the A”R’s Shulchan Aruch. That “the system” fails to do so means that parents who educate their children in “the system” are, actually, in violation of halacha.

    • to # 13

      Umanus means a trade or a craft. Just tell me who in the time of the Alter Rebbe had to spend years learning history and geography to learn a trade

  • yossel

    my son wen he got married he cam too holei tora asking for 120 credits so he could go to low school they would not give it to him with a tirutz your father owes us schar limud my son asked for him ? they said no for your yonger brothers pure blackmail so he has a job for 20$a hour in the meantime rosenfelds relatives and vilhelem s relatives and deitch grand children graduated college in 4 years as lawyer and if you take out your kids even a year out of mesifte then for sure they owe you nothing a young bochur noes if he is not going to shliches he is shafted the only way out to get a GED and go to grad school is to drop out by 17 years old maybe that s why we r losing so many children by the hundreds

    • Copper

      Guess where he went to school? Our kids can’t read or write! And if you could, you would definitely be able to understand what he wrote. But since you can’t decipher it, I guess you aren’t very literate either.

  • em

    3# are
    you lubavitch did ever learn one siche about this topic or maybe you embarrassed to be lubavitcher

    • Dovid

      Continue to bring up your kids with the same level of education as a villager in a 3rd world country. This is a great foundation for a community to have illiterate men walking around with low paying job prospects, no form of self expression, and therefore high levels of anxiety that leads to other health problems.

      Please tell me what the Rebbe wanted again?

    • Milhouse

      The Rebbe said what he wanted. You can’t deny it. The Rebbe was against incorporating limudei chol in school. He allowed it bedieved, only in order to attract parents who would otherwise send their children elsewhere.

    • Dovid

      The Rebbe was against teaching ANY language to children??!! Do you realize that the Yeshiva system fails to teach any language?

      Not Yiddish

      Not Hebrew

      Not English (which happens to be the law).

      When a child grown up and doesn’t learn a language, do you know what happens? It affects their cognitive development. Girls learn how to write and we see the positive affect on Lubavitch women. They co-direct Chabad houses, and most either go to college or on a clear path to a career (shlichus or otherwise). BOys DON”T get an education and they sufffer. That’s why you have so many Buchurim who are aimless after Yeshiva NOT because they are lazy, but because they are destroyed by the Yeshivah system that barely teaches anything!!! Not even ANY language.

      Stop using the Rebbe to excuse this corrupt inept bereft education system.

      It’s gonna be overhauled with or without you, because believe me many people in the community really want this.

    • Milhouse

      Dovid, you know very well that the Rebbe was against all limudei chol. He was not against dikduk, but this evil campaign is not about dikduk either. You are waging war against the Rebbe on his own turf.

  • Lubavitch Yeshivah

    Oholei torah was established by the Rebbe as a school al taharas hakoidesh in 1956. But Lubavich Yeshivah is available for any body that can’t live up to this level and does want choil in their education. By the way parnosa is from Hashem

  • l

    3# I guess you embarrassed to be lubavitch
    Because our rebbe was against secular studies
    Open up any siche on this topic get educated its embarrassing
    that a lubavitcher should post such comment

    • Dovid

      Are you telling me that the Rebbe *specifically* did not want people to have any form of secular education? I need to clarify this.

    • Milhouse

      Yes, you know this very well. The sichos and igros about it are well known and easily accessible. As is the fact that Oholei Torah was the Rebbe’s own mossad. The Rebbe wanted chinuch al taharas hakodesh wherever it was practical to implement it. He allowed limudei chol only if it was necessary in order to get parents to send their children to the school.

  • the only thing that matters

    the only thing that matters is YIRAS SHAMAIM, and if this is only thing that the children will get out of Yeshiva, then ASHREINU.

    • to Chaim, #25

      Do you consider yourself “trendy”, living on “2013 logic”? Do you think that the world started and will end with your logic? Do you think that in 1874 people did not worry about their and their children’s parnossa?

    • Chaim

      Please respond with some something substantive. You’re asking if I feel trendy? We are not at an idealistic Farbrengen on with a mashpia that is in charge of education of developing teenagers, but never read a single book on it.

  • To #4

    No one has to send their Children to OT

    You do what is best for your child. The system has been working fine for years. Many children who go to OT read English and do math very well without going to Engish. Many do not. If a graduate of OT needs tools for a living later in life there will be frum vocational schools to fill that void.

  • Every child should get a secular education!!

    No parent should hold back a secular education from their child, Its “child abuse” Maybe when your child grows up they will want to know the basics of math and english and science etc etc
    When a child reaches the age of 18 or finishes mesivta then maybe give them an option but it is embarrassing and sad that kids that dont learn any secular studies have to start everything when there older and it makes life so much harder for them!! There is no reason at all that any one should not learn secular studies! When a kid drops out of yeshiva and turns to drugs and bad things it is also because he had no were else to go! I didnt get a good secular education when I was younger and I hate that!! I wish I did!! And I hope that the law cracks down and makes it mandatory for every child!

    • So is this the reason for crime in the black community

      Maybe they first bring education to bed stuy? Oh I forgot they have the beautiful PS (that so badly failed)

      Interestingly its not wsj (or some conservative group) that’s always sticking their nose In To the frum community it’s always these yuppy liberal groups (that defend all anti Semites, & if someone brought just this discussed claim against Muslims they would cry islamophobia) that are sticking their nose mixing in to the frum community & looking for some illegality with a microscope.

    • anonymous

      A secular education is not the reason for crime in CH.

      A deterioration in moral and cultural fabric is. Many children and adults come from single parent households, abuse, a weak sense of community and a lack of responsibility.

      Just as frum kids grow up thinking their world consists of tradition, family, Judaism, yeshiva, marriage, etc., for Black kids in CH, theirs is an opposite and just as narrow worldview. By narrow, I mean they simply see CH as their world.

      For those here who complain secular studies didn’t help them, it depends on what you chose to do with the knowledge you were presented. There’s a huge difference between someone who goes to school for medicine and someone who goes for advertising. One of these fields is in far more demand than the other. If your job is dependent on consumer interest, well, good luck. Someone here complained about their significant other going to school for graphic design in the 80s. The technology is always changing. If you don’t keep up and expand your skills, you get phased out.

  • He certainly has guts

    Give him credit. He’s also a brave soul. He could team up with Lipa who has been tooting the same horn.

    • He is a bitter looser

      Your calling him brave, when I doubt you know the person(according to ppl who know him he is a bitter individual that’s wants to cause as much damage possible, aka lhacis)

      Lipa is frum 100% opposite of that looser, lipa is successful.

  • Seriously!

    Last I checked most Shluchim went through this system which you claim deprives our children from a decent Parnassa.

    Guess what, they run multi-million dollar organizations, schools, shuls, they are the best fundraisers, architects, CEO’s, COO’s, CFO’s, administrators, engineers, bookkeepers, accountants, managers, builders, Rabbis, orators, janitors, chefs, internal designers, external designers, public relation experts, and the list goes on, all in one.

    As a rule, most of those who opted out of the Rebbe’s system, they are the ones who forever complain, have no parnassa, can’t afford to give tzedaka, can’t afford tuition, have sleepless nights worrying what they’re children are doing at night, complain, complain, and complain, and they know that its all the fault of the system that they chose to reject.

    The Rebbe said it best: “I went through this education system that you all yearn for, and I tell you that it does nothing to help your parnassa, emuna and bitachon is the only thing that will do the trick”, and this you get from learning Torah & Chassidus.

    Don’t be so smart to think that you will help the eibishter find his way to get you your Parnassa, he’s is smarter than you and he will give you what you need the way He sees fit, if you only believe in him.

    That’s why the Rebbe called Oholei Torah “MY MOISAD”, this terrible Moisad delivered the Rebbe his army to concur the world, bring Moshiach closer and turned us all into leaders instead of schlepers.

    Thank you Rebbe for showing us the way and for showering us with Brochos all the way through.

    Signed: One of the earliest victims of Oholei Torah!

    • wake up

      i admire your passion and even agree with you, however the “system” needs a huge overhaul.
      from overcrowded classrooms to untrained or/and inexperienced staff etc…
      the old way is outdated and therefore more then ever students are falling through the cracks. here for example students not knowing how to understand or to even read let alone daven properly is inexcusable.
      students are more uninterested in studies more then ever before. now tell me whats being done about that?
      secular studies or not education in crown heights stinks you cant wave a candy infront of a child and say i tried. children born into the era of moshiach want more

    • Dovid

      NEWS FLASH! SHLUCHIM ARE SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE THEY EDUCATE THEMSELVES!!!!

      Either by trial and error, talking to other shluchim, taking classes in specific areas (ie public speaking etc). Their wife helps them write for the first few years etc etc.

      Nobody in this word ever did anything without educating themselves first.

      You wrote” As a rule, most of those who opted out of the Rebbe’s system, they are the ones who forever complain…”
      Yeah because people like you who are blind sheep and cannot even question the broken system will of course never complain.

    • Milhouse

      “NEWS FLASH! SHLUCHIM ARE SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE THEY EDUCATE THEMSELVES!!!!”

      Yes, that is precisely the point. So what is your problem? Why do you claim that the Rebbe’s system doesn’t work, when you have all these examples of successful people that the system produced?

  • the REAL AGENDA

    This has nothing to do with education or parnasa. The people behind the ad could care less about this.
    This is just an exercise at social engineering, an attempt TO SECULARIZE the frume velt, in the same tune to those behind the army issues in Eretz Yisroel.

    • reality

      If they could care less then why don’t they? The correct usage is “couldn’t care less.”

      You’re incorrect. A big reason why these folk went OTD is because they weren’t getting the education they longed for in order to realize their purpose despite being told they would fail. Even someone who is frei has positive purpose in this world. Some of these people have gone on to higher education, gaining scholarships, into medicine, science, etc.

      A secular education (math, science, geography) is not bad. G-d hands you an amazing planet, a universe and the response is to not learn about it? Where in the Torah does it say to not learn? Nobody in ancient times would have been able to navigate, to survive without learning about their environment.

      The easiest way to control and manipulate a mass of people is through ignorance. You take away their education, push them toward welfare, dependence on a system and they become too scared to challenge it no matter how corrupt it becomes. If they leave, they stand to lose everything. People end up fearing men more than G-d and that’s wrong.

    • Nonsense

      So you are telling me people shouldn’t follow the law of the land they are in. And they way they are acting in Israel is a disgrace.
      Halacha that obligates every husband to go to work and feed his family. So enough of your social engineering paranoia

    • To reality, #35

      You don’t have the slightest idea what are you talking about. I myself spent 4 years in college ( I do not come from a frum family), 4 year of professional school and 4 years of a residency, and I only learned the skills that I currently use in the last year of my training. NOTHING of what I learned in high school or college was useful.
      On a personal basis, I’d rather be a G-d fearing yid and poor than a successful shegetz.

    • You hit the nail on the head.

      Unfortunately to many ppl commenting here are so disconnected (or distant to begin with) from yiddishleit that they don’t even have a clue of what you’re talking about (some probably don’t even put on tefilin daily, not to mention a daily shiur), or are they’re so out of it that they innocently think the billboard & all behind it well meant & that they have a good point.

  • to #9

    The poor quality of writing, spelling, and punctuation is your comment shows exactly why better education is needed. My 3rd grade students are better writers than you.

  • Shimon Shak

    Interestingly enough all of the members of the board are people that fried out of their frum families and are now secular!! Sure secular education’s done lots for them…:.

  • I went to Oholie Torah

    Although my teachers were great at Oholoie Torah, I was ill prepared for the real world, I agree %100 with this sign that children need and must have some basic normal education.

  • um no#15

    ” The system has been working fine for years”, is a total synopsis of the bubble you live in. The system works? do you not look at your surroundings? Even the most ardent chabadnicks know the system is failing…

    And which “vocational” schools do you speak of exactly?

    Who are these well versed/studied children you speak of???

    What you are referring to,”many children” is simply a myth. The only Crown Heights Children who can read and write, at barely a high school level I might add,, are those of BT’s who know you must have rudimentary skills to even survive and home school their children to a point.

    Those who have parents who went to OT do not posses any english or math skills, at best, they posses english skills of a 4th grader, and that’s not even including basic science and history.

    It’s bad enough we have to hear complete ignorance from the reg internet trolls, but your response has no merit or factual backing and is sad.

    Look around you.

  • Happy Parent of an OT boy

    Most parents today, myself included, do home school their boys or send them to a tutor etc. I know I am not the only parent who takes her son to museums etc to learn about the way Hashem made the world, our bodies etc. Any parent in tuned to their children’s needs, don’t rely on the school but on the home and environment to teach daily lessons about the world, money (math), history etc.

  • ignoramuses

    the quote is “es bito umanus”.
    girls should learn secular studies… doesnt say anything in the torah about boys!

    • yeah

      maybe if the creators of the billboard had spent less time with english and more with their gemoras, they wouldnt make such foolish mistakes

    • ignoramuses

      the proper line is “chayav adam lilmod es BITO umanus”.
      maybe if the creators had spent more time with gemora, and less with their english books, they wouldnt make fools of themselves in front of millions

    • Milhouse

      Um, what are you talking about? There is no such quote, you’re making it up. When did Jews ever teach their daughters a trade? Women are supposed to be supported by their husbands.

      The quote in the ad is correct, but it’s being misused. For one thing they omit the next line which says “eini melamed es beni umnus elo torah”. Torah is the best umnus.

      But even if your son’s umnus is not going to be torah, the time to teach your son a trade is when he needs it, not when he’s tinokos shel beis rabon, or chayolei beis dovid. When he needs a parnossoh he should learn one. That is the Torah’s way. Not to teach limudei chol in cheder!

  • the "system' works! (unless your a flake) if you "faif-un" the systems's rules (as many do) it ain't gonna work for you!!

    If a bochur, didn’t just futz around…
    there are two general groups of bochurim who go through the “system”

    Group 1) Those bochurim who dress the dress, but don’t really follow the system on ITS terms…

    Group 2) Those bochurim who take each part of the system seriously, and as a result, reap the rich benefits, be it accumulating and developing many enriching qualities, yedios, skills and habits. that are all useful, enhancing and transferable for real (career) life…

    Just to list a few examples of how the system’s demands of a bochur, (if followed on its terms) enriches those bochurim who took it seriously:

    1. “TIME MANAGEMENT SKILLS”
    Seder, Punctuality, Self discipline, the habit of shmiras hasdorim develops ones time management skills. especially if he takes the other takanos of the Rebbe seriously, such as Chitas, Ranbam, Mikvah, Inyonei geula, etc juggling all these tasks forces a serious bochur to be very good with time management.

    2. “VAST KNOWLEDGE” & “ANALYTICAL SKILLS”
    A bochur who puts in the “effort” to learn as much as his ability allows, will over the years absorb a tremendous treasure-trove of knowledge, wisdom, insight and will have sharpened his critical thinking and analytical skills

    3. “SALES/COMMUNICATION SKILLS”
    A bochur who for years visits offices with tfilin every friday religiously, (& …chanuka, purim parties, pesach etc) will inevitably develop and sharpen his communication and sales skills. not to mention the positive growth towards his self esteem, to develop his ability to interact with the secular world.

    4. “CHINUCH-SAVVY, CHILD PSYCHOLOGY, & LEADERSHIP SKILLS”
    Summer after summer, being a learning teacher, counselor, head counselor, with a sincere effort to always improve one’s skills, (with many many training courses available to the dedicated bochur) these “effectiveness” skills are high transferable to any career. (not to mention parenting and marital health)

    5. “SELF AWARENESS”
    A bochur who follows the Rebbe’s teachings, must routinely focus on introspective, self-development, with brutal honesty, to become ever more aware of his shortcomings and seek out the guidance (of yedidim mevinim) to always grow and improve on yesterday.

    6. “KNOWING YOUR SKILLS”
    “Makir mekomo” By following the system as the Rebbe defines it. one will not only surely discover their innate abilities and talents, (as required by chasidus) but will surely have saayata dshmaya even without college.

    As for the many who “look” chasidish but daven @3pm & are perpetually struggling)
    you cant futz through the whole system, flake around and then wonder “why am i a “loi-yutzlach”?!
    The system works just fine! (but ONLY) for those who work the system!

    if one violated every rule in the system, at every stage, perhaps its no surprise why for THEM, the (Rebbe’s) guarantees, do not seem to apply!

  • Yisroel

    I went through the Lubavitcher Yeshiva system and just graduated from college. My grades, my papers, and my general knowledge were more than on par with the rest of my class.
    Just like kids come out of Yeshiva often knowing very little, the same is true with the secular education they would be getting.
    The education will come if one is interested and pursues it, otherwise one will be left ignorant regardless of their education.
    Who are we kidding. Look around at the non jews in our neighborhood, look at our children’s knowledge of Limmudei Kodesh, etc.
    Complainers complain, and doers do.

  • The Rebbe is right (part 1)

    Bs”d
    Those who think they know better than the Rebbe -how to attract a parnasa from Hashem-good for them, as far as a chossid of the Rebbe is concerned, its all in Hashem’s hands! we must merely make a kosher (natural) vessel approved by Torah and the Rebbe.

    If you really follow the Rebbe’s system in life, (not just lazily cherry-picking, but REALLY seek to live the way the Rebbe requires a chossid to) then, you will surely see the Rebbe’s words fulfilled!

    So are followers of the Rebbe really poorer?
    Absolutely not, Crown Heights is not exactly populated by careful followers of all (or even most) of the Rebbe’s teachings, the Rebbe made it clear what the keys for Shefa milmaala are, (Zakan, Tznius, Miyin, Chitas, Maaser, Routine Du”ch to a personal mentor “Aseh Lecha Rav” etc) when people try to imply that Crown Heights proves that the system doesnt work (when followed), i say the exact opposite is true!

    some of the happiest and most productive people i know are Shluchim, living breathing chasidus, REALLY implementing all the Rebbe’s teachings, and thus reaping the rich rewards!

  • The Rebbe is right (part 2)

    We need not make lazy generalizations lumping all Crown heightsers as typifying chasidim (followers) of the Rebbe, B”H Crown heights has grown and is today comprised of many types of people, some who are full fledged (uncompromising) followers of the Rebbe;s Takanos, while many many other residents are still in the “process”.

    so “Chabad-styled” people, who dress the dress and are “stylistically” and culturally chabad on the surface should not be construed as representative of “Authentic” chabad.
    nor should their struggles in life be an indictment on the Rebbe’s firm stance against college for our youth.

    Authentic chasidus teaches you to wake up early, Daven b’zman, be organized, disciplined have derech eretz, take care of your health, not to over-eat, not to break the law, to be accountable to a mentor, consult experts, (yedidm mevinim) the list goes…

    Walk into 770 at 6:30am,
    what percentage of “poor people” do you see Davening vosikin, b’minyin in 770 bright and early?
    now contrast those (disciplined) chasidim, with the ones who role into to 770 after chatzois…

    i guarantee you that there is a clear correlation between the late daveners and their socio-economic low functionality!

    in other words, to those who reject the Rebbe’s views re College, its not intellectually honest of you, to lump ALL “chasidic-dressed” people together as portraying AUTHENTIC “Orthodox” Torah true life style!

    A closer more nuanced examination and analyses of the facts, reveals a clear distinction between the AUTHENTIC disciplined “integrated” chasidim, vs the “cherry-picking” lazy types, whose main chasidic practice is the dress code.

    in conclusion, to receive hashem’s blessing in parnasa, one needs only to make a proper vessel (hishtadlus al pi teva) then, surely what hashem has set aside for his parnasa -on rosh hashana- will be fully tapped.

  • chmom

    There are two obvious points, though some are free to disagree:
    1.The ppl who put up that ad are coming from a perspective of criticism and lack of value for the values of our community

    2. Our boys do need not a basic education but a comprehensive, wonderful education!
    Learning how to read is a basic need today, like learning how to cross a street. So is math. Science and history- well those subjects can be taught in a Jewish context. No need to act like they are separate from Jewish things, G-d created the world, and we learn many lessons of value when we study it with the right perspective. Even the articles of the Rebbetzin on scientific topics, which can be found in any Talks and Tales show that.

  • Sholom Einstein

    If a young man wants to become a doctor lawyer or similar which path does he take?.
    Not every bochur will become a Shliach many do not have family business to join.
    Without proper skill one cannot support a large Chassidishe family.

  • Milhouse

    This is the Rebbe’s shchunah. I’m shocked that people feel so comfortable ignoring him, in his own palace. If you don’t understand his position completely, say so with respect. Or keep your opinion for some other forum, not one that by its very name is identified with Crown Heights.

  • to # 8

    if you would of had an education, u might have had something better to do then sitting there commenting all day under the namei millhouse.

  • yossel

    when a bocher Finnish t yeshiva and can not get a shlichois give him his 120 credits that’s all what do you want him to be a shleper for asartmerer a truck driver or b n h

  • Common Sense

    In other words, you’ll drag your heels, try to weasel out of every agreement and cheat as long as possible in order to keep your children ignorant and obedient.

    If they knew Halacha they would know it is actually a Halachic requirement to teach your children in a manner that they can later work and earn a living, regardless of the fact it is also civil law which must also be obeyed according the Halacha.

    And halocho teaches that derech eretz, literally, the way of the land you live in, must be followed.

    You wouldn’t think you’d need the Gemara to teach common sense, but we see otherwise.

    • To #54 and all halachists

      So you feel that a parent is halachically obligated to educate their children, Fine, but this is THEIR problem and not yours. Just because you think they don’t follow halacha, they need not be forced to educate their child in ways they don’t believe in.

      And by the way, how aye you holding regarding the halachos incumbent on YOU and not others!!!!!!!!

    • Milhouse

      Excuse me, how dare you say that the Rebbe was against halocho? What do you know about halocho? There is no such halocho as you quote. Civil law?! Lubavitch is built on defiance of the civil law. We defied the law in Russia, and when the Rebbe came to America he said America is nisht andersh. Here too he insisted on chinuch al taharas hakodesh, and if the law has a problem with that then so much the worse for the law. We do not bow our heads to the law, or put it ahead of the Torah.

      Yes, you have to teach your son an umnus, when he needs it. And the first choice of umnus is Torah. If that won’t work, then when he grows up and needs it he should learn another umnus. Not in cheder! That is what the Rebbe said, and you have no right to claim that the halocho says otherwise. He knew halocho better than you do.

  • Berel

    “Activists from New York’s Orthodox Jewish community say the Department of Education is failing to enforce legal minimum standards for basic education in some yeshivas.”

    Wicked fools. Full stop.

    They are pushing, whether by design or in effect, to make yeshiva education too expensive for the community to administer. They are pushing to have the government educate our children, either directly or indirectly via ropes attached public funding.

    That government education is an embarrassing disaster, and that the link between government education and livelihood erodes by the day is completely beside the point.

    These people are moisrim.

  • To all first get some info' on this mo(n)ster

    These orthodox community ‘activists’ that are quoted are not at all anything we would associate with, they not orthodox, not ‘community’ activists.

    Ask someone in BP who is naftuli moster.

  • Lulav & Nachmanson also just wanted a better education

    It’s this time of the year 12 tamuz when we celebrate the birthday & redemption of frierdiker rebbe,

    Why was the rebbe in jail who put him in jail?

    Lulav & nachmanson were two yeshiva boys that wanted to better the education.

    • Chaim

      If your yiddishkeit can’t survive basic education then it is very shaky indeed.

      In Addition, where did you get those facts from? (Curious).

    • Milhouse

      It’s not a matter of whether yiddishkeit can “survive”. You can survive being locked up and fed on bread and water for a month, but does that justify doing it? As the Rebbe said many times, the world survives on tinokos shel beis rabbon – why are you trying to diminish that, and deprive the world of its sustenance? Al tig’u vimshichoi!

      Are you really not aware that Nachmanson and Lulov came from Lubavitcher families?!

  • Dovid

    I went to a Yeshiva that did not teach English, and it was a big mistake. Because I am a rabbi, and I am very embarrass when others see my hand writing, and spelling mistakes. B”H I am making sure my children get a full secular education in addition to Hebrew and Jewish studies

    • Milhouse

      If you’re embarrassed at your poor English, improve it! Read seforim in English, read kosher books, read kosher magazines and newspapers. Plenty of people learn English as adults; why don’t you? But instead of teaching yourself what you need to know, you make your children take time away from Torah to learn it, when right now it’s useless to them, and if they ever need it they can learn it then.

  • 68 very well said

    Chasidim have always trusted the Rebbe!

    Chinuch al taharas hakodesh!

    Find your child an Umnus, Yes (within the parameters of Halacha and the guidence of our Rabbe)

  • to#64

    “if you would of had an education, u might have had something better to do then sitting there commenting all day under the namei millhouse.”

    I just want to know what does Milhouse do to be commenting so much. This is the same person who got defensive because someone else used his name by a mistake. smh.

  • Andrea Schonberger

    Excuse me fellow Yidden but it seems that many are forgetting something. While the Rebbe, obm, was a great Yiddish scholar he also excelled in secular studies. He passed his exams that qualified him to enter gymnasium in Russia, studied at the University of Berlin for several semesters, attended a technical school in Paris where he received his degree in electrical engineering, and furthered his education at the Sorbonne, still one of best universities today in the world. Obviously the Rebbe proved that one could combine Yiddish and secular studies and be faithful to Yiddishkeit while at the same time be a well-rounded individual.

    • Milhouse

      And the same Rebbe was 100% against introducing limudei chol into cheder. As you say, AFTER he was an adult, and married, had become familiar with the entire breadth and depth of Torah, THEN he felt the need to complete himself by learning other subjects, so he went to university, with his father-in-law’s support, to learn them.

    • to Andrea

      You are incorrect. Your story only proves that it is ok to go to college but only after you reach the madrega (level) that the Rebbe had reached before going to college.
      Are you ready to be tested in most of the gemara and and you ready to solve the most intricate problems in Halacha??????

  • FYI

    The Rebbe sat in class with an open Sefer on his lap. When the professor asked him what he had just
    taught, the Rebbe ZY”A repeated the entire lesson
    verbatim..

  • CHana Rivka

    I do not believe teaching english as a language in school is considered a secular subject.

    Think about it. Years ago most Jews were immigrants who spoke yiddish and had reall Jewish culture. Why destroy that with american secularism?

    But today, with the majority of the frum community (at least in CH) being BTs english is the language spoken at home and the only language alot of children speak. There are also children who have a hard time with languages.

    So, teaching english as a language doesnt have to be a secular thing. Knowing how to read and write english is fundamental to a Jewish education. Kids can take notes, kids can look up their chumash or gemara homework on their own if they are having trouble.

    Another thing is english doesnt need to be taught with secular govt books. It can be taught with jewish story books like label for labels, etc…

  • 78 I agree with u

    Listening to the Rebbe,

    Chinuch al taharas hakodesh till 12 yrs old “was a big mistake”

    If obeying the Rebbe is a big mistake,

    What about since twelve years of age?
    Why haven’t you done as many responsible friends of mine have (instead of making excuses and blaming your Batlonus on everyone else) and learn to read and write, w/o college and without compromising on Yeshiva etc

  • 78 obeying who was a big mistake???

    Really, the Rebbe said to avoid limudei choil till twelve, and college is not an option for us.

    Do you think that’s a mistake??

  • oposite!

    im trying 2 understand why girls need an education to cook and do laundry! when boys get married turn around and say “hey what have i taken with me these last 20 years that will help me in the future! in most case scenario this doesent happen until their 40. and then they start the system at 40 years old instead of 4 years! wake up crown heights! there is a world around us! filled with obligations! such us teaching our children secular studies.

  • this is shocking!!

    The rebbe tried to teach you how to be individuals, leaders, come up with ideas, learn from everyone, and here we are using him and abusing his words. Grow up and find your way, find your God! Or, just keep saying “The rebbe said” and see how that works for you. The rebbe did not say, he taught to help us think for ourselves. There are many answers, find the people who are open minded and willing to learn or ones that need to be told what to do without thinking.

  • #82

    you did not answer him. fact is, the rebbe was there and passed. You say that he had an open book, OK, so he heard what was being taught as he was reading. I dont get what you are trying to prove, please explain.

    God bless you my brother. I am just here to learn.

  • secular

    My wife got a degree of graphic design in a University in the 80s and now is obsolete
    The same happened to many of my friends who learnt in Universities in Israel, and now they are working in fields completely unrelated
    My personal experience is that I don’t use anything that I learned in my secular education for my business
    BH I used some math in the first dapim of Eruvim or for very fast calculations in Nidah and Birkas Hachama in Brachos as well of the mazalim and constellations also for Kiddush Hachodesh
    Chassidus in gral, teaches us how to see the world with a different perspective and this opens up incredible our vision in business and all our interactions as well the idea that absolutly nothing is impossible to accomplish,If Hashem is our partner, there is no way to lose
    Also Gemora gives us a powerful connection with Hashem that allows us to succeed in anything we do and reflect a menschilchkeit in the people around us
    BH All my success, bli ain hara, I owed to the Rebbe,to My SHLIACH and to the geshmak in Torah learning instilled by my teachers, (Rabbi Goldberg in Hadar Hatorah, Rabbi Wichnin Haha, Rabbi Fitzy Lipsker, Rabbi Dubinsky) Thank you thank you thank you!
    I am 100% sure that I never would have succeeded if not for them

    • Ari

      Aggressive national and international competition in every field, as well as overcapacity in many — preclude the pricing freedom necessary for capital-attracting profit margins.

      Accordingly, on the other side of the ledger, cost containment becomes essential to maintain competitiveness: that means personnel!

      We must face the fact that businesses have incentives not to hire workers in an effort to curtail costs in order to be competitive in growing markets overseas; for example, the Chinese have 300 million middle-class consumers (roughly, the population of the United States), and they have another billion potential customers coming along.

  • shmayonki

    CH deserves what it has. It’s quite simple. If the parents all demand something it’ll be there. All have been hoodwinked into thinking it’s holy to be illiterate. The schools don’t teach ONE language. They don’t teach ANY skills. They only teach memorization.

    so WHY does CH not demand better? because they don’t know better. That might change as the current generation has kids and doesn’t care much about how the old generation distorts things so that they don’t have to do what they can’t do.

  • Concerned in MA

    To #81….
    Well said, Andrea. Yours is a calm, thoughtful comment of a subject that has created so many passionate responses.
    To anyone else: With no disrespect intended, I have a question. It would seem that most of you live in CH. Do you think that all your children, or their children, will be living in CH? Some will be on shluchim, yes… but most will not. Is there enough room in CH for these children to be able to stay in CH when they grow up & start their own families? The population multiplies but the physical area does not. Yes, the children can move to other areas where there is an established frum community, but odds are that it will be a smaller community. Frum areas in large cities face CH’s dilemma; an increasing population in a limited space.( Another issue is will there be adequate employment to maintain the costs of a family?)
    Worcester MA where Rabbi Fogelman, OBM, worked so hard to build a vibrant community is an example. Without the basic English, the job market is all but closed unless you have so-called connections or can survive on a minimum wage salary . It has room to move, to live, to grow but in order to do this, you need a roof over your head, food to eat and good schools for your children. All this costs money.
    I used to live here and miss the area very much. Now I am in NH, but the scenario is the same.

  • the Rebbe explicitly forbade College

    to 81

    A chossid follows his Rebbe’s instructions!

    The Rebbe has supernatural connections

    Dozens of Multi milionairs today merely raised their hand at the famous farbrengen where the Rebbe distributed brochos to those who raised their hand! to be rich.

    nature as you know it is not the rules by which the world (as a chossid) really works

    nature is symbolic

    Hashem is the real source of who will succeed and who wont

    A chossid follows the Rebbe’s explicit guidelines to parnasa

  • Zalmanson

    The term “Secular Studies” is a misnomer. Learning math, science (al tahras hakodesh, as taught in Talks & Tales) and how to write is NOT “secular,” it’s part of being a functional human being!!!
    Many suggest that the Rebbe was absolutely against ALL non-Judaic studies. Please clarify what you purport is the Rebbe’s position.
    Does it include teaching your child to ride a bicycle? A buchur taking the written test to obtain a Drivers License? Instruction manuals? Counting from 1 to 100? How would you apply it to this scenario: Walking home from shul with your son, He turns to you and asks. Tatty, how does a tree grow? Shhh! “Secular Studies”!!!
    There is a terribly misguided secular ideal; that to be a Mentch you must receive a well-rounded SECULAR education. It is this ideal that the Rebbe fought against!
    The way to educate your child so that s/he grows up to be a Mentch, is to teach them torah al taharas hakodesh. However, this in no way excludes teaching them basic skills! Surely they must be taught al taharas hoakodesh. However, basic skills are not inherently secular.
    Another consequence of labeling basic skills as “Secular” is that it causes our children to perceive these skills as a contradiction to yiddishkiet and that for them to be functional the must secularize c”v.
    I know the people behind this ad. They are not against the frum community. Don’t kill the messenger!

  • Hashem provides

    Who is rich and who is poor is in the hands of g-d, we need to make a proper channel to recieve our parnasa from Hashem

    The proper vessel must be within the guidelines of Torah (and for a follower of the Rebbe, it must also be within the parameters the Rebbe taught)

  • Dovid

    Fine, “The Rebbe said”. I choose to live a normal life and not be illiterate. I’ll choose the same for my children (iy’h soon).

    If me learning how to write is “against” the Rebbes wishes then so be it.

    I see two communities here. One has their head in the sand and is against any form of education or the dreaded concept of change, and the other one is more rational and normal (excuse my profanity I know these terms can be offensive to people who wish to idealize “chassidishkeit” as their way of life.

    Good luck.

    • it is not true

      it is not true that the rebbe said do not go. look into the words he said, you will find that you are very right in educating yourself. good luck and try not pay too much notice to extreamists.

  • Dovid

    Let us go back to what the sign says; we are obligated as parents to teach our children skills. By not teaching them how to write, math etc. are you going against Halacha?

  • Andrea Schonberger

    Dear Millhouse and #89, Of course the Rebbe was an adult when he pursued higher education–most people who attend the university are adults. I meant to say that if the Rebbe was out and out against secular and higher education he would not have pursued advanced studies in various subjects or gotten a degree in electrical engineering. How can we deny the fact that the Rebbe was a man of great learning, both Yiddish and secular?

    • to answer your question

      After you know as much as the Rebbe knew and after you are married and after the consent of you mashpia then you can do as he did and go to college

  • Dovid

    Anyone who does not teach his son a skill or profession may be regarded as if he is teaching him to rob. Talmud Kiddushin 29a

    • to Dovid

      And how do YOU hold regarding all other mitzvos written in the same Talmud that apply to you??!!

    • the Rebbe explicitly forbade College

      according to halacha & chabad traditions, a couple is prohibited to get engaged, until they’ve affirmatively established and met all three prerequisite stages!
      1, Pre-date research to ascertain “good character” & “fear of heaven” compatibility of values, interests and goals (once this is clear can they move to meeting)
      2 The dating stage focussed primarily on discover if there is mutual attraction and chemistry
      3. Love is not necessary, only attraction and compatible goals

      Love grows under these conditions inside the marriage

  • False dichotomy

    Some secular types are trying to perpetuate a fallacious conflict between the Rebbe’s view on how to find a proper chanal for parnasa vs resorting to college

    There is no inherent contradiction between making sure that your children (by the time they go out into the world) have the basics “skills” necosary for life.
    and the Rebbe’s poit of view (of Exclussive Chinuch al Taharas hakodesh)

    It’s a false dichotomy promoted by the misyavnim shebikirbenu,

    They deceptively point to disfunctional black hatters to advance their claim that those who truly follow the Rebbe (for real) get messed over.

    The fact is that those who truly follow the Rebbe’s teachings, do succeed in all areas of life not just financially

    Too many “so called” followers, don’t follow and thus don reap the benefits

  • Yossel

    B”H

    Back when the Rebbe advocated Limudei Kodesh only, Shlichus was WIDE OPEN and a Bochur with the energy and drive could easily get a position in Shlichus.

    Today, Shlichus is essentially CLOSED unless your father is a Shliach. We have so many young men wandering around, some married, unemployed or underemployed, on the dole getting food stamps, Medicaid, and other handouts. Where is the dignity for a young family in that?

    Perek states that Torah without Derech Eretz, interpreted as a legitimate Parnassa, is wrong. So many of our young men (and even women) can’t read or write English, or even Yiddish and Hebrew. Jews have always prided ourselves for being intelligent. A man is required according to Halacha to train his sons in a trade, and if Shlichus isn’t an option, he shouldn’t want his sons to become illiterate schnorrers. Ad kan.

  • i agree following the Rebbe (re not going to college) doesn't = failing in parnasa

    same re chimuch al taharas hakodesh, many pears of mine went exclusively to tahars hakodesh all their schooling, and today they are more successful and well adjusted than their “enlightened” ocean pkw counterparts

    if you follow the Rebbe fully, (not just pick and choose)
    then you will surely succeed in all important arenas of life!

  • yossel

    a fraind of mine asked oholei tora for rhe 120credits he needed it for a special curs in hatzolo corse and did not get it becose his father owed sxchar limud wake up they give it only to thear family members etc

  • learn English on the side

    most Oholei Torah-nickes too the initiative to learn how to write and read on the side,

    many have even over compensated due to the OT stigma, and are thus doing just fine

    as for the lazy, batlonim,
    those you’ll find in any demographic!

    again, the real disciplined chasidim, (as post #64 put it) who really apply the Rebbe’s teachings in their lives, are very successful in all areas that matter

  • Mendel

    WAKE UP!

    Learning how to write and how to calculate is not against the Rebbe’s wishes. What on earth happened to this world?

  • 116 is correct

    even if you went to OT all your life and never stepped fppt into college, there is no reason not to study how to read, write and a good trade

    rgere are numerouse examples of those al taharas hakodesh who are doing very well bec they have put in the time and effort, instead of making excuses for their laziness or blaming their school

  • Rochel

    LOL and we let you vote? No wonder this country is such a mess. Stop blaming the Rebbe for your stupidity. Go learn something useful and contribute to society instead of sucking from it.

  • As a supporter of Taharas HaKodes my self, I say you should Learn English on the side!

    116 is right!

    most Oholei Torah-nickes are very well off and even over compensated bec they took the initiative to learn how to read, read etc on the side,

    They managed to catchup on the reading and writting front as well as aquiring an impressive command of the english language,

    if there’s a will theres a way, no need to saturate a child from kindergarden on with ABCs in order for him to have the tool by the time he goes out into the world

    As the Rebbe himself suggested, if for parnasa reasons, one can beging teaching secular studies after 9 years of age, 12 years of age and even later without compromising the child’s readiness for the work force as an adult

    Note worthy:

    The basics of reading and writting were not a contradiction to Taharas hakodesh per se.

    as for the lazy, batlonim-types who even by adulthood haven’t taken the initiative to obtain the basics of reading writing etc, lazy irresponsible types you’ll find in any demographic!

    again, the real disciplined chasidim, (as post #64 put it) who really apply the Rebbe’s teachings in their lives, are very successful in all areas of life, not just financially.

  • great

    soon we will have signs saying dont take any benefits from the government!!!
    then they will say stop dressing your kids in the old standards!!!
    till they will say you must have coed schools!!!

    we are losing are morals and standards just because these fellows after yeshiva were not able to find a job.
    what is wrong with us!?

  • David

    Let’s look at what the Rebbe did.

    He attended the University of Berlin as an undergraduate.

    He attended the Sorbonne Graduate School in Electrical Engineering.

    The world of today is more complex than ever. While very few people have a mind as extraordinary as the Rebbe’s, still the halacha is clear.