34 Comments

• aa

  great article, thankyou

• Shikker vee Loit

  Drinking Mashkeh is sooo old school and Russian (I think the Rebbe wrote that To R Perets Mochkin, it’s somewhere in the Igros).

  Mashpi’im should stop drinking and teach the talmidim to stop too.

  Its unnecessary and dangerous.

  We could cultivate other chasidishe customs instead.

• great article

  Thanks for posting this!! there are many people within our community that sure need to read this!!! how many marriges and familys would of been saved if pple would just realize and quite drinking!!!

• Dont be fooled.

  For all those who think drinking is chassidish, dont be fooled, it ruins families.

• sheichen hashechunah

  My first reaction was to ignore this article but when I saw the tenor of the comments so far submitted I decided that some counter perspective was in order. I feel morally and socially obligated to speak out after witnessing the current turmoil over the growing threat to our civil liberties generated by fanatic, arrogant, soft-headed ideologues who have come to power because no one took them seriously enough to actively rebutt their false claims. First, I must assume that this article was edited as I would expect a psychiatrist who is by definition highly educated and presumably intelligent would not indulge in over simplification, loose logic and sweeping generalizations. This edited version gives the unfortunate impression that its author is some teetotaling puritan who would like to see the revival of the Eighteenth Amendment; prohibition. He probably didn’t mean to but the thrust of the article posits the patently false assumption that all alcohol consumption is a real and immediate threat to mental health and normal daily functioning. Nothing is that simple. Perhaps the alarming rise in abuse among young people has startled some into a panic but I caution everyone to recognize that no solution lies down that road; if it did we wouldn’t have needed the Twenty-First Amendment.

• esther

  my son refused to go to any more frabrengens at yeshiva because he was sick of bochrim throwing up around him.

• yom sheculo mashke

  “Mashpi’im should stop drinking and teach the talmidim to stop too.

  Its unnecessary and dangerous.

  We could cultivate other chasidishe customs instead.”

  in general we can make reforms to chasidishe custioms to be more fitting and appealing, and judaism as a whole for that matter

• Addition

  There is a subtle difference between alcohol abuse and alcohol dependable. Alcohol dependence is by far worse. In alcohol dependence, the user cannot cut down or control use of the substance, despite knowledge of its harmful physical, psychological or interpersonal effects. In addition, the user takes increasingly larger amounts and for a longer period then intended. The user will make a considerable effort to obtain the alcohol or frequent places where alcohol is served. Evidence of “tolerance”, that is the user needs more and more alcohol to obtain the desired feeling of drunkenness and withdrawal. Alcoholism is a substance related disorder just like drugs in which life expectancy is lowered by 10 to 15 years.
  There are two ways drinking problems are exhibited:
  1) A person may need alcohol to function on a daily basis or 2) A person may be able to withhold from alcohol consumption for a period of time but cannot control amount once he resumes drinking. This is called a “binge drinker”

  Obviously the above information is not complete, but it does add to the rather vague references made by Dr Keith.
  Ref: DSM-IV-TR

• reb zalmen

  my best friend is mr glen…sometimes i cheat and deal with mr goose….but they are the only ones that trully understand my neshoma…for the rest of you bored folks get a job!!!

• LCHAIM

  Shekoach I LOVE BOOZE and your quiz rocks I got 100% right(YES) to them all…

  and to sheichen hashechunah so long as we still have our Second Amendment right… Booze I can make guns are a little more complex

  and to great article Booze saved my marriage (and most likely yours as well)

• esther

  i don’t understand why CHI would publish the above 2 {zalmen and lchaim}comments.these 2 individuals appear to need some serious intervention besides the fact that they are advocating a very destructive life style.

• To Addition wrote:

  Just remember that the DSM-IV is not Toras Moshe and that is why we are up to the 5th version already. The author rightfully calls attention to the fact that alcohol may be a real problem and should be treated as such LONG before it becomes a fullfledged addiction. Many practictioners would not identify the alcohol as a problem because the user has not become officially an “abuser.” I think that the point is to recognize the dangers and ill effects of alcohol as early as possible.

• Wake up and Smell the Truth

  This community has a big dirty secret that costs us ruined lives and worse every year.
  Let’s do something about it now!
  The power is in your hands

  Answer YES or NO to the following questions.

  1 – Have you ever decided to stop drinking for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days?
  Yes No

  2 – Do you wish people would mind their own business about your drinking– stop telling you what to do?
  Yes No

  3 – Have you ever switched from one kind of drink to another in the hope that this would keep you from getting drunk?
  Yes No

  4 – Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year?
  Yes No

  5 – Do you envy people who can drink without getting into trouble?
  Yes No

  6 – Have you had problems connected with drinking during the past year?
  Yes No

  7 – Has your drinking caused trouble at home?
  Yes No

  8 – Do you ever try to get “extra” drinks at a party because you do not get enough?
  Yes No

  9 – Do you tell yourself you can stop drinking any time you want to, even though you keep getting drunk when you don’t mean to?
  Yes No

  10 – Have you missed days of work or school because of drinking?
  Yes No

  11 – Do you have “blackouts”?
  Yes No

  12 – Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not drink?
  Yes No
  Did you answer YES four or more times? If so, you are probably in trouble with alcohol.

• What are you Waiting For

  This community is steeped in alcohol. Underage drinking is an epidemic. Every event is an excuse for our young boys (and girls) to drink usually to excess, and evryone turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to it. When lives are ruined and sometimes lost, we say “oh what a shame”, “ad Moshiach”, but do nothing. A week doesn’t go by without a violent incident(mugging, car accident, burglary)always associated with alcohol use, but this is never brought out in the open.
  Wake up Crown Heights, you’ve got a big problem, take your heads out of the sand and deal with it, or it will deal with you.

• Daniel

  this is a silly quiz because said yes to remembering my first drink, and yes to being upset if someone told me that i could no longer have it. the problem with that is the mere fact that i would be upset if i were permanently barred from any food i enjoy, for example i remember my first real stake, if someone told me i could no longer have stake i would be upset, does this mean i have a stake problem? i do realize that too much stake (or any red meat) can kill me. However so long as i don’t over do it on a daily basis i will be okay. Although there may be a problem with buchrim drinking too much, the “Quiz” is not the way to work it out.

• moshie

  alcohol addiction is a desise that the individual is powerless over his intake. the maspiim can stop and it wont have any effect on the true alcoholic!

• T S

  Hey – sheichen hashechunah – well written perspective, though I don’t think the article writer said what you needed him to say in order for you to vent articulately.

  Only if TWO of the 4 Q’s are yes, is there a problem. And if you NEED to, take alcohol out of your life. But those who enjoy alcohol without it insidiously taking it over, are fine.

  And this has nothing to do with someone’s liberties and the constitution. It has to do with mature people doing honest self-analysis and response.

  So though I liked your command of English, it seems you were trigger-happy and just wanted to shoot with your keyboard fingers, regardless of the real point of this article.

  Had you kept your prose focus on the respondants and not on the article writer, you would have been on target.

• Not as think as you drunk I am

  To sheichen hashechunah:

  Actually, alcohol damages the liver- which then leaves the body’s filter less effective in detoxifying…which can lead to diseases including ‘yene machleh’. As far as our religious obligations are concerned, we are told to take care of our bodies- not destroy it. I equate alcohol with poison. We all have the right to choose what to do, but it may be against Judaism. (Luckily I withstood the ‘pushing’ to drink at ‘farbrengens’ as a yeshiva bochur. The Rebbe wrote strongly about it, as well as the Freirdiker Rebbe.)

• VEHEE SHEOMDO LONU ....

  TO ALL EXTREMISTS LEFT OR RIGHT!!!
  Do we ban cars because people are killed EVERY SINGLE day by irresponsible drivers?
  Do we ban cars because people are killed because they have not clicked in their seat belts?
  Do we allow everyone and anyone to drive just because they want to?
  The answer obviously to all the above is NO!
  What we do is put certain rules and laws in effect and try to enforce them. Are they Perfect? no. Do they totally eliminate the problem? no. Do they control and minimize the problem? Absolutely!
  Can Mashkeh be effective at a Farbreingen? Definitely.
  Is looking for a Farbreingen in order to be able to take mashkeh an issue? Of course.
  However, is the latter a cause, or a symptom of a bigger and larger problem? I venture to say it is a symptom and expression of a different problem.
  FACT – Farbreingens are a positive lifeline of a total different dimension in every chassidishe yeshivah, was, is, and will always be.
  FACT – Are there Bochurim / Yungeliet that abuse the concept of a Chassidishe Farbriengen? Unfortunately yes.
  SOLUTION – a Chronic abuse of Chassidishe Farbreingens is actually a cry for help. Menahalim, Mashpiim, Melamdim and Mechanchim have to keep an eye out for these Bochurim /Yungeliet, and through true Ahavas Yisroel and concern win over their trust so that they open up to you. Da’agoh Belev ish yasicheno.
  SOLUTION – Frabreingens in any yeshiva should never ever be allowed to occur for any reason without a Mashpia, elterer chosid, or Chassidisher responsible adult.
  SOLUTION – For some reason, the fact that Mashke after all is said and done is only a ‘Tofel’ and not the ‘ikkar’ by a Chassidishe Farbriengen, has somehow been allowed to get convoluted through the introduction of all types of different exotic Gele Mashkes. Maske in its essence, the Friediker Rebbe says, is a Dovor Mo’us! And at the same time, when utilized responsibly it can bring to positive results. Therefore, the glorification and introduction of Gele Mashkes must cease immediately. It was not until not to long ago when putting on the table A Gele Butel Mashke was poshut A Grobe Zach.
  V’ish es reiaihu ya’azoiru u’leochiv yoimar CHAZAK!
  This is my opinion, what is yours?

• This is not real Judaism

  Unfortunately,the drinking has become a way that people can feel like they are “chassidsh” without doing anything else that requires true effort and action for the religion.

  Years ago,people farbrenged,but they farbrenged about different topics,such as maamarim and vertlach that they heard.That is far from the rantings,profanities and vulgarities that come out of those “farbrenging” today.

  If you want to kill your bodies and families by drinking,that is your choice.Noone can make anyone do anything.

  I know countless children who do not admire their father for his farbrenging.

  While the father who drinks weekly,may think.he is setting an example of chassidish and righteous behavior,the children grow up and end up without a father figure to respect.Purpose defeated.Children grow up with resentment and anger, and are embarraseed of their father’s behavior and may not even want to associate themselves with such a father.

  Please don’t think that the youth of today will buy this sort of nonsense.

  So go ahead and decide which relationship you prefer.

  Bottle versus child.

  If one has issues to escape from,get professional help or find other means of numbing your pain.

  It is about time time people focus on the real thing.

  For those that used alcohol to numb their pain in Russia(besides the Chassidim who actually didn’t miss a davening) after farberenging)that was their escape from the persecution or what have you.

  In 2009,there are options.

  Russian drinking is history and can remain just that.

• Addition in reply to To addition

  I am terribly sorry. Did I offend you in some way by quoting from DSM-IV or is the reference slightly above your head? I am trying to unravel your simplistic viewpoint of the dangers of alcohol, but I must admit you seem to have made up your mind. Alcohol sneaks into ones life through the back door at our most joyous moments and before one realises the bottle becomes part of their life. Many alcoholics will not even admit a problem to themselves never mind the doctor. There is no line marked “alcohol problem”, or a labels marked “abuser” or “alcohol dependence”. The first line of defence is knowing one has a problem. I will not bore you or confuse you with the pros and cons of DSM-IV, but before you make sweeping statements of issues you obviously know very little about… think… Do you have a problem? After all the first line of defence is to know that there is a problem.

• Reply TO THIS IS NOT REAL JUDAISM

  Can we have an open minded discussion?
  How do you differentiate the difference of taking l’chayim based on the cause (persecution in Russia or other problems in the free world)? Are the symptoms not the same nevertheless? Why have we never heard of this phenomenon that “Children grow up with resentment and anger, and are embarraseed of their father’s behavior and may not even want to associate themselves with such a father” before in Russia?Is it not possible that here in the free world the children are being encouraged , directly or indirectly, by a Parent to look down at their father for this? In fact, almost every incident where children “on their own” know to look down at their father for farbreingens etc. there is usually a huge lack of Shalom in the Bayis. Hey, maybe it is time for these bashers to stop and reflect if maybe they are actually the cause to these mashkeh farbreingens. If not 100% then maybe 50%. Remember! Maskeh farbreingens are always a symptom of a cause. I suggest that if it was truly pleasant in the home, most of these mashke farbreingens would be nipped in the bud without the need for “professional help”.
  This is my opinion, what is yours?

• hey red wine is good for you....

  OK here you go…the reason why people drink is because they are self-medicating. That is right they are big babies and do not want to look in the mirror deal with what is looking back at them. Sorry there are no short cuts. It is a fact that this so called culture of the bottle only started when our Yeshiva system broke down. I hope & doven it becomes fixed. I am sorry to say that now the “boys” who never really learned are in their mid 70’s are starting to go. I hope we see something more positive.

• on shlichus

  CH is only a part of the problem. How about Shluchim who drink too much, are regularly drunk and think they are OK when under the influence. The chilul Lubavitch is terrible. Sometimes they just make fools of themselves, but then, too often they are seen as representatives of the Rebbe… I heard from one gvir in a community that the Shliach offered to learn with him privately but “it never really happened. He would start off the class with a small L’chaim and it was basically over”. Alcoholics need help and rehab no matter where they live or what hat they wear. We need good examples and abuse or dependence is NEVER ok.

• to vehee sheomdo lonu:

  so with this excuse, you are going to down a bottle of cyanide, saying people ANYWAY die of cyanide or whatever your point is??
  should we continue killing ourselves?
  we haveto do our hishtadlus: stop drinking. just like we have to do our hishtadlus in driving carefully etc.
  idk enough on this subject, but someone out there does
  to that someone: please, here is an individual (the one who called us all trying to stop alcoholists “extremists”)who would proabbly go on killing his liver if no one stops him or anyone else in his situation

• esther

  to reply to this-did you ever stop to think that perhaps the alcoholic’s drinking and associated character defects(that’s a term used in recovery)are the cause of the shalom bayis problems to begin with?
  ‘

• A RABBI, A PRIEST AND A MONKEY

  IT IS FUNNY TO HEAR THE SAD TALE OF THE CHABAD HOUSE RABBI WHO CAN’T USE BOZE ON CAMPUS….

• sheichen hashechunah

  VEHEE SHEOMDO LONU caught the essence of the problem and its solution as well when he referred to the Frierdikker Rebbe’s description of drinking at a farbrengen. People should first read the original sicha and then begin their discussion from there. But tell me would some of you commenting here have muttered your disapproval had you been present when our Rebbeim or authentically Chassidishe moshpi’im “took moshkeh?” Go ahead and look at the original sicha where the matter of who is taking moshkeh, why he is taking moshkeh and the way he takes moshkeh is presented to remind us what it means and how to be a Chassid. Our Rebbeim are kedoshai elyon and the derech of Chassidus that they taught us is holy even down to its prottim but as with any davar goshmi m’klippas neigah it can be used or abused; the crux of the matter is tolui al hagavrah not the cheftza. If we as individuals and as a unified community would revive a sincere chassidishkeit then most if not all of the problems would be prevented in the first place and the exceptions would be all that much easier to solve.

• In recovery

  Alcoholism whether it is a weekend kiddush club “thing” or every farbrengan that one is drunk IS an addiction and shouldbe treated as such…The frum community should not push alcoholism under the table, there is help for this and rehab done in without compromising ones anonymity.
  Chatsworth Pavilion located in Montreal is a 3 week program that even has a complete seperate kosher kitchen under lock and key. Call 1-800-931-2999…you are not alone – get help

• 96 bottles of 96 on the wall

  My dear reader,
  The drinking that goes on every weekend is not necessarily a result of marital distres!I know many couples who are quite content,amd the husband can be found under a bench in 770 on a weekly basis.It has become a social hanit as well.The point being that one should be able to define what it is without placing spiritual blankets upon the habit of getting together and drinking for the sake of drinking to get plastered.
  If a farbrengen does not improve one’s spiritual growth or permeate one’s soul with refinement,it can not be justified as a holy habit.
  I am not talking about a shot or two.The consumption is way out of range.Full bottles of 96 are not available for sale at your local bar.

  Perhaps 770 should have liquid Listerine stations set up for Shabbos so one can go home and explain to one’s family that they were simply davening baarichus or got very engrossed while studying a maamer.

  Maybe one can place an extra pushka in their home,and put the twenty dollars (or more- for those with picky taste buds)before licht bentchen into the pushka ,and with that money help people that don’t have clothes and food for their growing families, instead of just wasting it on getting wasted……

  It is 2009,let us put on our thinking caps and figure out who we really are and what choices we are making and exemplifying.

  I have good ideas.Let us not talk,let us act.
  It is not the alcohol that makes you religious,unless it rubs off on you……. Pun intended.

• stam

  alcohol is actually a depressant. the opposite of an antidepressant. check your medical books. do whatever you want with your lifes, but dont try to justify it.

• How alcohol affected my (innocent) life

  Alcohol was involved in the crash that killed someone I loved more than anyone in the world (my loved one was not the one who had been drinking). It caused another loved one to lie to me to a point that I cannot ever trust a word he says (quote from Rabbi Dr. Twerski – how do you know when an alcoholic is lying? his lips are moving). It destroyed my marriage and my family. This list goes on and on. For you who are making comments ‘defending’ alcohol I hope you never have a single one of the experiences I live with daily!!! If you can defend anyone drinking to excess for any reason (civil liberties included) then you are simply a fool!!!

• Shazaam M

  The pro-active L’Chaim (LIFE) recipe:

  Torah & our Rebbeim impart positive spiritual benefits from L’Chaim. Clinical studies impart positive health benefits from L’Chaim. Torah & our Rebbeim impart who, when, where, how & why to drink any alcohol! Clinical studies try too.
  Factors are relative.
  Seek an objective perspective.
  Be mindful of the balance.
  Adjust & correct gradually.
  Review as necessary.
  Be well!

• yeshiva bochur

  i think yeshivas have to cut down on mashke but should give alittle so the bochrim shouldnt get mad at hahala