The Jewish Daily Forward, a secular Jewish news outlet, recently ran a story about crown heights' women balancing tznius with the desire to 'look good.' While we don't feel that the article in its entirety, nor the accompanying video, meet the appropriate standards for republishing on this forum, a few select paragraphs will adequately demonstrate the article's message.
Forward: Orthodox Women Push Limits of Modesty
The Jewish Daily Forward, a secular Jewish news outlet, recently ran a story about crown heights’ women balancing tznius with the desire to ‘look good.’ While we don’t feel that the article in its entirety, nor the accompanying video, meet the appropriate standards for republishing on this forum, a few select paragraphs will adequately demonstrate the article’s message.
On a recent Sunday, Nechama Silverberg slipped into a vintage skirt at a pop-up consignment store in Brooklyn, trying on clothes as any other hip 20-year-old might, but for one difference: She carefully measured whether the skirt revealed her knees.
Around her in the Frock Swap, an Orthodox clothing business celebrating its first anniversary, were other women pushing the boundaries of modesty: an exposed elbow here, a bare collarbone there, a skirt that ended at just the wrong side of a pair of knees. Many were on the lookout for unique outfits for the coming High Holy Days. Some were engaged in angst-ridden mental calculations about whether an item was tznius — modest according to Jewish law — and if not, how it could be altered.
Tznius is a particularly gray and, it seems, malleable area of Jewish communal life. Rabbi Avi Shafran, a spokesman for the conservative Orthodox umbrella organization, Agudath Israel of America, said there are two ways to interpret this practice. There is the halachically mandated “covering up,” which refers to a woman’s upper arms and upper legs and to a married woman’s hair. Then there are “communal norms,” such as a prohibition against bare feet, which are not “inherently mandated” and are therefore left up to individual communities — and in many cases, individuals — to decide.
“As in every community, there are ideals,” Shafran said, adding that there are those who hew to them as well as those who fall short of reaching them.
“I think that a stroll in Crown Heights or Williamsburg or Boro Park will evidence a good deal more of the former, but, I’m sure, examples of the latter, as well.”
Indeed, this past summer a debate over tznius exploded in the Dear Rachel advice column pages of The Jewish Press, which covers the largely Jewish Five Towns on Long Island.
“Is it a sin for a frum girl to have the desire to make herself pretty?” asked one correspondent, who said she liked to dress unconventionally but always within the bounds of modesty. Another reader railed against married women who wear “enormous, garishly styled custom wigs” and clothes “so tight, it is a wonder they breathe.”
“These women are a disgrace to Orthodox Judaism and should not be tolerated,” the exasperated reader wrote.
Allison Josephs, founder of an outreach website, Jew in the City, said that the problem for women lay in defining the line between style and tznius. Always having taken care of how she looked, and raised in a Conservative Jewish household, Josephs, who is now more observant, said, “It was actually very important for me to see that I could express that part of myself and still feel good about myself while living a Torah-observant life.”
For some women, what other members of the community think is of little importance so long as their husbands, and perhaps their rabbis, approve. But they must also pay attention if they want their child to attend the right yeshiva. Chaya Chanin, a mother of two who co-founded the Frock Swap with her sister, Simi Polonsky, and lives in Crown Heights, said, “There are schools in the neighborhood who will only accept [students of] parents if they dress in a certain way.”
The sisters, who grew up in Sydney, Australia, are daughters of a Chabad rabbi. Chanin, 26, said they always had a passion for finding ways of blending fashion with Halacha. They would take a short dress or a sleeveless or low-cut top and turn it into something modest “while still being fashionable.” Women at the Frock Swap spoke of shopping in big box stores to hunt for tznius-compliant pieces, or of finding inappropriate items and then adding fabric, taking down hems or slipping a top underneath to solve the problem of revealing too much.
Polonsky, 25, lives in Cleveland and flies to New York every four to six weeks for Frock Swap sales. She said that she has to dress slightly more conservatively in Ohio than in New York. She also said that there are some items the Frock Swap never accepts, such as miniskirts or pants. “We want to help people look good and be tznius,” she said.
Polonsky pointed to the racks around the store, which had taken over a Crown Heights florist shop but could just as easily have been set up in a Five Towns living room or in Chanin’s home. There were high-end designers such as Armani, Fendi, Gucci and Marc Jacobs; a 1960s Ports jacket for $565, and a Montclair jacket for $500. Less expensive items, such as pieces by Nanette Lepore and See by Chloe, were there “to keep the price range available to everyone,” Polonsky said.
At the front of the store, a speaker blasted out a range of music from Aretha Franklin to Eminem. By midday the store was alive with about a dozen women — some with strollers, others carrying babies under their arms. Even some girls from a local yeshiva stopped by in their uniforms to flick through the racks of clothing.
“It’s very personal for each woman,” Silverberg said of the mental calculations that went into a decision about what to wear. “I feel that what Halacha gives us is a gift of laws that can outline how to be self-dignified.” But she added, “There’s no law against looking beautiful.” Avigayil Waxman, 19, who looked striking in a baggy orange shirt and a black-and-white pencil skirt that ended above the knee, said it was a battle for every girl trying to be fashionable and tznius. “Everyone defines it differently,” she said.
“At the end of the day, everyone knows if they feel guilty or feel good for what they are wearing,” said another woman named Nechama, 22, who declined to give her surname. “You have instinct, God gave that to you.
“You know.”
Entrenpeneur
It would be great it someone would open a store “lshem mitzvah”
to sell fashionable and 100 percent tznius clothing at cost
price. This would definetly help the tznius crisis since many
people are having a hard time affording new clothes for their
daughters. They go shopping at malls for cheap prices and are
exposed to all the tumah, both the models with untznius clothing, and the terrible atmosphere with the goyishe music hocking away. The atmosphere desensitizes our girls and therefore they don’t even realize how terrible the clothing is
that they choose to wear.We need a glatt kosher low priced store for women’s clothing just like we have glatt kosher meat
stores. Anyone interested in sponsoring such a boutique?.
PPL JUST DONT KNOW =(
for starters i my self am new to the allways tznius demographic (prmerily thanks to a close friend who brought some information to my attention)
in a nutshel: people simply dont know as to the TRAGEDIES they bring to the community by not following the laws of tznius!
these are not threats made by humans or Rabbi’s
The Boss (g-d) threatens some very harsh courses to Ch“V befall the community whos members defy tznius!
pleeeeees Havant we seen enough tragedies! havant enough families lossed loved ones at an unprecedented number, the tragedies are becomming sooooo freequent R”L
when will we get the message?! its not your private biz! the Rebbeh warned us of this bec he knows his stuff! & he cares for us not to suffer! so lets trust the Rebbe on this..
the Rebbe usually stays away from mussar, yet on this the Rebbeh urged us & warned us!!! (bec its real & he cares to prevent the outbreak of tragedies we now see happening more & more often R”L)
an educated (NON CHABAD) Rebetzin
i have plenty of acquaintances in crown heights
the root cause is SELF ESTEEM!
poh-leeeez! stop trying to intellectualize the issue as being about personal definition of tznius etc etc
i am pretty modern orthodox myself. nd i can tell you that when a women dresses immodestly in crown heights, there is always an underlying self-image issue there! because lets not forget, these ladies were raised to believe that everything the Rebbi teaches is %100 the truth & he was very clear and outspoken about how bad things happen if women dress in immodest attire,
which women would actively geaprodise their family’s well-being, prosperity, health, nachas etc & in public tooo?!
either they dont respect their Rebbi, or they have such a struggle with their self image that they just cant help it!
i know several chabad counterparts who agree with me that many young women feel that their only sense of worth is based on their surface bec they lack any inner dignity or self esteem!
so stop with the speeches & start helping these women get the emotional support (counseling) they clearly need
#3 is spot on
its always a lack of feeling pretty or nice enough… for me i know on days i feel good about my self i have little temptation to expose more skin! its the truth lets face it
to #3 who are YOU!!!!
STOP JUDGING US! the Rebbeh accepts everyone & no im not responsible for anyone elses suffering thats rediculous!
about my self esteem, you are soo dead wrong, i dont think people who dress modern do it because they feel ugly if they were dressed frum! thats obsured!
i dress as i please & sure feel gr8 about my self esteem! and dont need you to tell everyone if i have self esteem problems (which by the way i dont) because everyone who knows me knows that your wrong
3 is right
at least she is right about my friends who have problems with always dressing properly
here we go again
so now we cant blame anyone because they all have self esteem issues!
since when does self esteem issues take away free will?!
i have a strong temptation to eat a cheeseburger @ McD… you still have free choice! especially because your actions hurt others (according to Torah)
dear post #5
i sincerely encourage you to find a good therapist, even if not for your self esteem issues, just in general it’ll do you alot of good! & going to one is very normal & common today! many normal people go -even if they dont have any mental issues or selfesteem problems!
at least try it.
A Man-s point of view
i think that a women who dresses modestly is much more impressive than one who resorts to cutting corners (pun intended)
as an open-minded 24 year-old bochur im eager to find a dignified well-adjusted women who has self confidence & self respect, even if she is otherwise chilled & modern.
simply put, tznius is more cool than signs of desperation
tznius is attractive!
the more the less the less the more!
@#5 being defensive prooves #3-s point
you are too cute!
to number 5
I wont comment on your self esteem – I dont think I can judge.
But for you to say that you wont take responsibility for other peoples suffering:
Well, I cannot say that you specifically are responsible for A B or C
BUT YOU DONT LIVE IN A VACUUM!!
This attitude of I can do what I want and its noones business is not correct. Dont say the Rebbe accepts everyone blah blah, thats a copout!!
The Rebbe (basing it on pure Torah) said many times that Tznius affects the ENTIRE COMMUNITY!!
So dont say its not my business – because actually it is.
For you (and others like you) to think that they can do whatever they want without thought of their neighbour is the exact opposite of Ahavas Yisroel.
Stop blinding yourself to the truth. Your actions do matter!!!!
david
Now i understand why you need a carlbach like shul in crown heights
Spitting in the Rebbes face
All around the world people know that Crown Heights is a non-tznius place. Instead of being the center of Chabads and the Rebbes message, Crown Heights has become an embarrassment for Lubavitch.
To #5, who are YOU?
The Rebbe does not accept everyone. That’s new-age crap. The message of Chassidus and Torah is for everyone. Though the Rebbe had/has (wtvr) tremendous Ahavas Yisrael, the Rebbe made it clear that certain things are unacceptable.
Not keeping with Halacha is unacceptable. You cannot say that because the Rebbe treated the non-observant with love and respect that it is acceptable for you to break with Halacha as well. You cannot fathom the amount of Agmas Nefesh so called ‘Chabadniks’ cause the Rebbe with their excuse that “The Rebbe accepts everyone”. Does that make it OK to be mechalel Shabbos? Or to eat a Big Mac? No. Stop using that as an excuse and realize that neither your short skirt or you exposed elbows are acceptable to the Rebbe.
im MAD! (just got back from a shiva call
i am very hurt & offended at the heartless women who know the harm & courses un-tznius brings to soo many…
where is your compassion?? how many more tragedies must we suffer for people to start trusting the Rebbe’s warning?!
oy vey
oy vey wait to u see the video..
Look, see I am also a real person
“How ya going to keep them down on the farm after they’ve seen Pariee?” These are the words of an old song.
Internet,TV and magazine covers intrigue the young women and tell them they are more then just baby making machines. After staying at home cooking, cleaning and changing diapers 24/7 a young woman has to show herself and the world there is really a beautiful person under the black clothes.
Anon
#5, you do have self-esteem problems because if you didn’t, you would have no problem dressing down. Women go over the top with their looks and materialism. Self-esteem should come from the mind, not the designer handbag, long wig or heavy make-up.
CH focuses so much on tzniut but it’s failing to see the sickness of materialism: expensive living, clothing, cars, summer bungalows, camps, yeshivas that offer a sub-par education but cost more than college tuition, ridiculous real estate, etc. Build it all up and you have an idol.
who cares
So take all this energy that you are using to insult each other and use it to THINK about what you are wearing. Cover your knees, elbows and collarbones. You can still be fashionable and tznius. Just use common sense. You can’t have it both ways. You are either a frum yid or you are not….quite simple. If you are then you know what you must do.
Fed Up
STOP this berating and nonsense. There are a set of rules. You can choose to follow them all the way or take it to your level.
I am dressed 100% tznius, my girls however have it alot harder and push the boundaries bc they see others do it and all the talking and explaining won’t change what they buy but stop them from wearing it outside when I see it.
Look at the young couples who all grew up in Shpitz Chabad homes and all negating tznius because they can, bc their husbands say nothing and do not stop it…
It starts with just one thing and it starts at a very young age, and then ..
So put only tznius stuff in the store and things that don’t have to be fixed before I can wear it..
Stop charging twice the price for the same item I can get in department stores literally
It’s a shame our community has become like this.
Ladies, if you are going to wear a tichel and its half of your head, and if your going to wear a tshirt that is open till your breast, and a skirt so short..
WHATS THE POINT? Skip it altogether.
I know in chabad we tolerate alot, but enough, really.
Crown Heigts Rebbetzin
Many valid points made.
But please, ladies avail yourselves of spell check and the like. You undercut your articulate points by appearing ignorant and uneducated.
And yes, people have no idea about the (Torah stated) consequences of attire that challenges the boundaries of acceptable. Btw, this applies to older women,who should know better, not just the younger demographic.
whats wrong?
we push the limits on just about everything else, but when it comes to women (haztallah, tznius) its “thou shall not”…
It-s Elul (and Tishrei soon)
Maybe this article was published for a reason. Maybe all the argument caused by the comments are here for a reason.
The only reason I can think of is, it is Elul.
Soon it will be Tishrei.
This brings to mind: Teshuva, Tefila, and Tzedaka Maavirin Es Roah Hagezereih
The “Tznius issue” that so many people are talking about is the Roah Hagezeira.
So everyone, take upon yourself a small hachlata within these three things- maybe daven with a little more kavana, or give tzedaka every day/
And for the main thing:
Everyone, forgive each other for posting harsh comments to each other.
Then the Tznius issue will be resolved IY”H this year!
#18- What-s w/ all the stereotypes?
Clearly, you are not from Crown Hts, and know very little about us and Jewish teachings.
Yes, peer pressure is all important, as is the influence of popular culture but you really have it wrong. Women here are way more than cooking, cleaning,and babies.( not to denigrate those ) And black attire is a fashion choice here in the hood,
it is not something that is mandated.
Women want to look nice but anyone raised in Chabad has been taught about where women’s true beauty lies.
Out of Towner
I hate when my girls tell – well, they wear this in Crown Heights… and I have to explain that that is NOT an example of tznius.
A friend told me of her first experience in a Chabad House. She was pulled along to go one Friday night. She tried to back out because she was in pants …, they said – “No problem, Chabad accpets everybody!”
“I got there and I saw that they really DID accept everybody, there was even a prostitute! With a short (just above the knees) tight red leather skirt, a really tight shirt, very high heels and a lush blond wig! I was then introduced the Rebbetzin.”
#12 states it as it is/chassidim know
That is exactly right. The Rebbe demanded much more of chassidim/Anash, Er hut g’mont, and has always stressed Halacha.
The Rebbe spoke out many times, very strogly, about tznius and its’ ramifications. He addressed this issue before almost every summer.
At times of tragedy, such as accidents in the country ( in the early 1960’s) and in reference to the security of Israel, the Rebbe would advise to correct problems with tznius.
Tzinius is a Symptom
An EMBARRASEMENT for Lubavitch it is how “frum” people behave,how nasty they are and how much they lack of achdus ad Ahavas Yisrael,Tzinius is a symptom. Not the cause.
ppl push the limits
because they see a lack of content – what is THERE behind a beard and a hat or behind a very tzinius seitel ,4 what good it is if inside I will be behaving like a nasty person. it is not worth it and upsetting. People give up! you have to stop judging others and focus in yourself!!!!
OY!
I clicked on the link to the Forward. The video made me cringe! I like to dress nice and look good (while being tznius), but it makes us Lubavitchers look so shallow and ditzy!
A tzinuis fashionista in Crown Heights.
This place is round the corner from me? Shut it down. Open it in Flatbush, we have enough problems without flaunting stores that dafka push the envelope. What kind of disgusting music do they blast out? They can’t play classical music or nicely arranged niggunim? I’m sick of this attitude of what the heck, in CH no one cares anyway. YES WE DO! Instead of the williamsburgers protesting outside a nail salon on Kingston WE should be protesting this garbage here in our own backyard.
And one other thing…people can’t afford tuition or money for food, why are they paying $500 for someone’s used stuff? If you tell me the customers are from outside CH then more reason why this store doesn’t belong here. Except they’d get firebombed anywhere else. Other neighborhoods have standards & Rabbonim who enforce them.
Laaniyas Dayti
Perhaps we “excavate” a little, and see if there is a root cause why Crown Heights IS different.
Historically Chabad was always an introspective system. The primary example of this is that when the Mittler Rebbe succeeded (may we use that word nowadays?) his father, the Alteh Rebbe, they were all “in transit” to avoid that little Frenchman, Napoleon. A decision was needed as to where to settle. There were many suggestions and requests. Towns like Vitebsk, Borisov, Mohilev, Bobroisk, etc. were eager to become the permanent focal point of the rapidly growing Chabad movement.
The Mittler Rebbe chose the tiny hamlet of Lubavitch, hidden in the woods, on what appears to be a circular (dirt) road going nowhere. WHY? Because it was a good place for withdrawal from the word, and focus on inner meaning of Creation and Creator, and for focus on self-improvement, refining the middos.
The first conscious move away from that focus, was after the Bolshevik consolidation of power, which more or less coincided with the histalkus of the Rashab. Under the oppressive circumstances, the Rayatz turned the focus of chassidim to undertake responsibility for Klal Yisroel, which they did bimessirass nefesh. Later (after a 10+ year break in Poland) in America, with his dwindling energies, and barely double digit numbers of dedicated foot-soldiers, this focus was refreshed. Schools (chadarim) Shabbos, Kashrus awareness, were included in the focus of the chassidim that were here.
The Rebbe expanded this undertaking. However, in the process, he also changed the whole mindset of chassidim. It would not be too innaccurate to say, that the Rebbe kindled the fire of entrepreneurship into the framework of chassidus-in-practice. Shluchim (by the 1980’s) were a breed of super-entrepreneurs, coming into town and going straight to the top. The Mayor, the Governor, etc. Mivtzaim were equally valid with the wealthy and the magnates, and were persistently pursued.
A “side effect” of all this, was that chassidim who did not go out, for whatever reason, were also drinking the spirit of entrepreneurship, but in different ways. One way was that various people established their own little fiefdoms in Crown Heights, and in 770. (It is amazing how many chazokess there are there. Lockers, rooms, cubby-holes, and what-not, all defended with the natural zeal of property preservation.) There were (are) many tight holdings of power in the shchuna, in local shuls, mosdos, and sundry boss-type niches, such a gabboim, communal leaders to the outside, etc.
Another expression of this was the “enablement” of the feminine gender, in a manner not shared in other communities of similar halacha observance. In many instances, the kalla could be saying a maamer at the wedding just like the chosson. (Push the nose forward and ask: “Why not?” Indeed, why not.)
So the young generation of Crown Heights is effervescent with the spirit of “get a life.” College, business before marriage, and fashion. (A decade ago, the spectacle-frames changed in style often, Crown Heights was the first place I noticed the new fashion.) But feminine fashion has a different flavor. The doyens of French fashion, or of Italian imitations, were/are projecting a different feminine “animal”. (Feel free to finish the paragraph yourself.)
This little exercise in excavation has opened a rich archeological pit for people to ponder. Especially all those young couples waiting to go on shlichus, when positions are difficult to find. It could take some serious introspection, as to whether this desire is motivated by their need to express their “growth” and hispashtus behay alma as spiritual entrepreneurs (with flamboyant influences). Perhaps it is time for a section, namely this swelling group, to find a little hamlets (figuratively, or even actually – again, Why not?) and reintroduce the Chabad of yesteryear as a viable derech bechayim.
@12 well said
took the words out of my mouth
agree with #19
and #26, i agree, as an out of towner first coming to ch, i was horrified by the tznius. and it only keeps getting worse. about thatrebbetzin – lol
T0 # 5
please be compassionate to other people!
haven’t enough people died young?! havent we seen an unusually high increase in calamities just as Torah (our Rebbe begged) warned us…
by the way tznius affects your own parnasa, health & nachas not to mention its a walking advertisement of how desperate you are for the wrong kind of attention
do you really wanto broadcast to the whole world that you don’t feel good about yourself as is, and must resort to cheap easy self denigration just to feel pretty??
think about it, you’ll see its not worth it, the Rebbeh looks after our happiness if you want his blessings heed his plea
we have seen the tragedies increase when the Rebbe was dismissed unfortunately
watch the video
it wants to make you cry!
its just soo embarrassing & sad!
just watched the video = (
its a must see!
i know the ladies interview in the video, they are the nicest people! its soo obvious what the problem is, its share ignorance!
the video is a MUST WATCH
if you watch it you see exactly the extent of ignorance & cluelessnes that exists out there
forward is out to make all ch look bad!
why did they only interview BT families from out of CH?
they chose their interviewees carefully to make our women seem shallow & bimbo-ish
why did they choose inarticulate women only who were dressed hypocritically??
this was a nasty reporter with an anti-orthodox agenda
she could have found at least one properly dressed lady who is well spoken
soo embarrassing
good people = bad chinuch
cant blame these ladies they seem genuinely sweet & cluless
someone has t kindly educate them, they are clearly not the rebellious type just not educated
i know yocheved
she was not raised chabad, its pretty disappointing that they singleout a-typical women for their interview,
yocheved is the nicest person you can meet, she just doesnt know! soo lets not rush to judge! she didnt study in chabad
i dont judge people (just actions)
its ok to judge ACTIONS as wrong but not the PERSON
we must be DAN_LEKAF_ZECHUS, the person doesnt really know or appreciate the importance of tznius,
dont condemn the person, rather lovingly educate them, encourage them, thats the Torah-way!
she needs a mashpia
the Rebbe promises many blessings for people who periodically consult a mentor in all areas of life (it musnt be the same mentor for all areas)
a mashpia keeps one in-check
why did they interview A-TYPICAL ladies?
they couldn’t track down one Rebbetzin?
most women in CH would know better than to agree to interview about tznius while dressed in a tichul & low collar-bone
they only post the interviews that make ch women seem unprincipled & rebellious
shame on the forward for always producing a gotchya piece on orthodox jews!
shame on us for making it soo easy for them
To 41
I wasn’t raised in Chabad either, but I know Tznius from slutty.
In the know
“why did they only interview BT families from out of CH?
they chose their interviewees carefully to make our women seem shallow & bimbo-ish”
I hate to break it to you but the so called “boutique” portrayed in the Forward and it’s owners that are interviewed may be shallow and bimboish are not of BT families but are born and bred Lubavitchers.In fact one of them is married to a member of a well known extremely Meshichide family.Even gezhe is afflicted with this malaise.
Agree with 11
Was gonna say that! :)
people just dont know
i feel soo bad for these young women, the interviewers are trained to make you feel very relaxed and off guard, without realizing that millions of viewers will dissect your every word
these ladies didnt know the reputation of the forward
to do lynch articles on frum people to make them seem hypocritical
they chose uneducated out of towners who were not raised in proper chabad schools
someone who is close with them Teach m-
ahavas yisroel is to kindly teach whats right to those who dont know or were taught wrongly
in this case they came from schools which spend less then 5min on the importance of tznius (and its huge impact)
it always boils down to education or serious self esteem problems
#11 yeh exactly
its sad and amusing at the same time
i like the Honest sister
at least she’s not playing games (see video)
honesty is step one to self improvement
I love designer fashion but .......
VIDEO IS A TOTAL EMBARRESSMENT !!!
It shows the ladies as ignorant , hypocritical and clueless ! They are not even in “sync” with their theories contradicting eachother and stumbeling over their words . And the words sexy and tznius being used together is just poor poor taste ….
Really sad and pathetic
#48 low selfesteem or education?
thats all problems not just the urge for immodesty
To #31
Right on!
The Forward exploits issues in order to sell more of their trashy newspapers.
embarassing video =
spot on! these people are soo nice and sweet, just wont compromise on how they look for anything, and it is not because they are being rebellious or disrespectful, its just because the most important thing in their life is how they look and their clothes. its shallow of course, but each person has things they wont give up on and for these girls it is how they look, it wouldn’t occur to them to give up a great outfit just because its not tznius- because they don’t care that its not. doesn’t bother them at all! its a struggle but its not always malicious its just lack of care and it doesn’t actually bother them if they don’t care. the point is that you have to admit when you’re not dressed proplery that its not tznius, don’t try to justify and twist it to make yourself look ok. just say that i struggle with it and i know its not necessarily right but i can’t give up on how i look. don’t make it out like its ok- its not, be honest and realistic!
the video makes them look like fools but they are sweet, just soo clueless and dont mean to be disrespctful just trying to make some money and have some fun!
Refreshing Change
As a visiting shlucha from out of town, who was in ch this week. I shopped at the frock swap for the first time and found that the friendly, courteous,respectful attitudes and customer service of the frock swap proprietors was a refreshing change and one that other store owners in ch could take a fine example from.
I was fortunate to have purchased 2 completely tznius outfits at a very reasonable price that i will proudly wear in my chabad house this Rosh Hashanah.
Please remember that tznius is not just in your outwardly dress but in your speech and tone. Clearly the comments posted above do not reflect a measure of tznius.
Crown Heights Resident
As a mother of a large family KA”H and several teenage daughters,I can say I am a happy customer and satisfied consigner of the frock swap. My daughters are all very tznius and have sold and bought beautiful tznius garments from the frock swap. Keep up the good work girls!
a modern orthodox prospective
i live near CH for most of my life, have friends who live in crown heights, its upsetting & traumatizing to see how MANY YOUNG PEOPLE LACK SELF RESPECT
why is it that there seems to be a connection between intelligence & dress standard,
the less refined the mind the shallower the dress style?!
its very strange to observe!
dont these “so called” chabad women realize that the world outside of CH is disappointed with their total lack of grace & self respect?!
frankly the video made me blush! i tell my friends that each community has its fare share of love-starved women who take their personal problems out to the open!
please if you are suffering from self worth issues & feel the urge to gain a sense of importance by violating your own dignity, please get help! its sad to see how many of you seem desperate for attention so much so that it overrides your values & principles
RH
Maybe one should be spending the days before RH in better preparation, than trashing a wonderful initiative. Kesiva V’chasima Tova.
Surprised
I was a shopper at the frock swap sale at mimulo on sunday. I was asked by the interviewer from the daily forward to photograph myself and child, which was subsequently not used. The interviewer and the non-jewish photographer were more than impressed by the respectful manner of all the women and the store owners and it was in fact a Kiddush Lubavitch. I hoep he does not proceed to read all the horrible comments written here.
Good People = Bad Chinuch
Good people=The sweetest girls i know. Bad chinuch=What do you want from these girls, they were educated in Rabbi Pinchus Feldman’s mosdos in Sydney!!
to quote the rebbe
“WHEN A WOMAN DRESSES UNTZNIUSDIK SHE IS IN EFFECT MAKING A STATEMENT THAT SHE HAS NOTHING ELSE TO SHOW FOR HERSELF. DO YOU WOMEN WHO MAKE ME AS A WOMAN FEEL EMBARRASSED NOT WANT TO BE SEEN AS SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN AND PERSONALITY RATHER THAN JUST A BODY WITH PERHAPS A DECENT OR GOOD FIGURE????
Amazing ...
Amazing how 30% of the comments here were written by the same person. Dear sir/madame, if you want to fool us into thinking you’re not some single nutjob, try varying your writing style.
The problem is...
In the video the women say tznius is a very gray area, so if someone doesn’t say that’s not ok, we will do it.
That is not a good frame of mind to be in, especially in this aspect.
OY!
The video is just sad.
The vulgar hint in their shirt tag-line?
The spewing “sexy” every five seconds?
Since when is tznius only in dress?
What happened to aidel speech?
And Jewish halacha aside, what happened to classy and chic?
This is not classy. This is not chic. This is not even sexy.
This is trash and no self-respect.
Oy!
Sick of these trashy Crown Heights Women
Just read this article: http://forward.com/articles… It says it all! It’s a shame that outside people don’t know the truth about Lubavitch, and Crown Heights gets portrayed with all the trashy families that become the so-called “spokespeople” for all of Lubavitch! This is not the way Crown Heights should be behaving! I am ashamed for these people and even more, that the Rabbonim of Crown Heights don’t get involved and stop this kind of store! Tznius and sexy??? Who do these 2 women think they are??? Sick! That word should not be allowed in our vocabulary, nevermind in the same sentence!
Check out this video!
<iframe src=”http://player.vimeo.com/vid…” width=”629″ height=”354″ frameborder=”0″ webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
Frum women should always look nice.
Big difference between attractive and provocative.
Hashem yiracheim
I don’t know where to begin! How dare anyone insinuate that the rachmana litzlan tragedies that have occured are because of any one particular womans dress? Did you not hear the rebbes outrage at shach after he blamed the holocaust on non-observant Jews? It was moiradik how angry, yes infuriated, the rebbe became. The most important principle upon which our entire mrsorah stands is veahvta lireacha hammocha. Who are we, mere mortals, to judge and assign blame for what goes on in oilam hazeh. Yes ofcourse this article is misguided, but the reactions printed here are horrifying. Lashon hora and motsei shem rah galore. Singling women out by name, discussing which parts of the body they show in the video… How could we? This opportunity for anonymously commenting is ripe for cowardly attack. Shame on anyone who publishes personal attacks without signing a real name. And the idea that you know why things happen, well you must be the almighty because I was taught only HE knows.
shocked
The video is an unbelievable Chillul Hashem! What’s really pathetic is that the lady in the beginning “supporting” Tznius isn’t dressed remotely Tznius herself.
The Shallowness of Tznius
For those people looking for example of the tznius crisis issue and scanning the crowd for a bare knee or a low collar bone has chosen to judge a person by what he or she wears without further thought at who the person really is. The block in the mind of the self-proclaimed higher authority on the ways of modesty is limited to the outwardly appearance of a person and has no regard to discover what lies beneath. If the person for instance is truly a good person who spends time helping and invalid or who looks after siblings for hours on end without complaining, and who wears a skirt above the knee, she will be viewed as a “disgrace to the community.” Is she a truly a disgrace? The unfortunate back lash of the tznius issue is the shallowness of it all. You can reprimand what I am saying with stern pointed fingers and shocked dismay, but next time you see someone who is dressed in discordance with your perfect portrait, try for a moment think beyond the dress and look into the person… who knows you may be in for a surprise.
THE REBBEH HIMSELF MADE AN EXEPTION
THE REBBEH ATTRIBUTED TRAGEDIES IN OUR (CROWN HEIGHTS) COMMUNITY TO:
1) LACK OF TZNIUS
2) LAX TAHARAS HAMISHPACHA
#68 in general you are right
when it came to tznius the Rebbeh begged us very clearly to Dress modestly lest Hashem’s protection be removed from our community Ch”V
Mina
Hey isn’t that morah yochie from Oholei Torah???? Nachus
to 68
you cannot pin point a specific tragedy with a specific violation perse!
but many Torah sources predict that G-d stops his divine protection from a “machaneh” aka community whose women break tznius
re post #68 -in general you are right
the one who insinuated that tznius affects tragedies is our Rebbeh!
yes the Rebbe cares ssoo much about us, that he’ll tell us how best to protect ourselves!
instead of getting so defensive, why not do a little reading up on the Rebbe’s words on the topic! you’ll be amazed! i know i was!
trust me my tznius wasn’t the best either till i stumbled across the Rebbe’s dyer warnings re the dangers of immodesty by women of our community
90% of the time the Rebbeh focussed on hilighting all the positive blessings a women brings to herself children etc by mesiras nefesh for tznius! (especially sheitul…)
3 points
“to the people who claim they know yocheved”
a-you have no right to make fun of someone like that on a public forum- that is real lashon harah and i am sure yocheved is insulted.
b-please do not write that we should not judge bt. you are insinuating that they are inferior to the rest of lubavitch. once we accept bt in our community they are one of us
c-it is not an ignorant point to wear a tichel but a choice. every lubavitcher knows what the rebbe said about sheitel. maybe it was irresponsible on her part to wear a tichel while being interviewed but do not blame it on being a bt. there is no connection.
#26
#26 LOL
on a serious note.
do you know if they did a bochur to lain for shabbos :P
Tayare Bridder
These girls are doing an amazing job — times are tough, the
economy is shaky and money is sparse….
What we have here are two innovative, driven young ladies who are making a difference.
Certainly making life easier for husbands who don’t have to shell out thousands on the latest prada…
Kol Hakavod
D.N.
What saddens me most is how far the reference point on tzniut has moved. One need not be a prude to become slightly uncomfortable listening to the interview. People will do what they will, but we really must leave the word tzniut out of it. Tzniut has everything to do with ones thoughts, speech and mannerisms, and has halachic guidelines to determine its external expression through dress. What was caught on camera at this venue was a violation of both. Simply put, things that are halachically supposed to be covered, were exposed. The words sexy and tzniut Are an oxymoron. They just don’t support an environment where people are supposed to be developing and nurturing Yirat Shamayim and adinut. This discussion was anything but subtle. It’s just sad that people are so, so far away from and confused about what it means to be tzanua.I think any woman who has even minimal knowledge and some level of honesty would agree.
Who wrote #32???
I would like to read more of your work.
Yocheved Sidof endorses this???
She directs a new school called Lamplighters!!!
Isn’t the fear of Hashem the foundation of chinuch?
to # 1
You are a genius! This is the first, 100% to the point, and accurate post on he subject I’ve see in ages!
I hope some people wih $$ will make this a reality
you don-t have to be so smart to know
Hello people – you don’t want to be tznius? Then say so. The problem is so many of you are total hipocrits! You wear a mini shirt but cover your elbows? WHY???
And why pay $3000 for a sheital when half your chest is falling out of your too tight tee shirt?
If you don’t want to be tznius, then don’t. Admit that you are not frum and fartick. Don’t play games and pick and choose what you cover, (unless you are a newbee baalas teshuvah who has to slowly incorporate each aspect of yiddishkeit into you life)
A dominao’s pizza is trief even of you get an all cheese without pepperroni version. Your clothing is also treif is it’s not 100% kosher.
And a woman who dresses immodestly blocks the flow of brachos to her entire family. No brachos = no protection. Rashi says so.
Needs a few changes...
It’s really important that a shop that claims to be supporting tznius, should make sure that those serving in the shop and the owners themselves keep to the basic standards of tznius.
Also, why can’t they put on Jewish music? I’m sure most people in C.H would be offended by that in a public arena.
Finally, what’s the idea about being sexy? I don’t remember learning that Sara, Rivka, Rochel and Leah were sexy – who exactly are our role models?
Other than these points, I like the idea of a frock swap, it would be nice to have something like that with very reasonable prices for those who can’t afford the regular and high prices.
PROUD
I know the two girls that run the store, and contrary to what the forward decided to portray, they are not stupid, ditzy and ignorant. the video cut out a huge chunk of the real interview. the girls seem like they weren’t on par with each others views because the interviewer made it more conversational not formal so it was more of a discussion then question/answer.
they want to provide tznius fashionable clothes so that girls do NOT have to go out and buy UN-tznius clothes in an effort to look nice. Alot of you are saying that girls need help if they go out wearing nice clothes…i think YOU need help. the rebbe encouraged women to look nice and NOT dress in rags. many would be turned off chabad/religion if that were the rule. the reason so many people are turning to chabad these days is because of the freedom to grow and become a better person at your own pace. we cant all be the same and on the same level. so all of you that are complaining about this “travesty” should really pull you head back in your own homes, encourage your daughters to be tnius and your boys to stay in yeshiva and leave the punishing to Hashem, if it is warranted.
How low can we go?
“Like I Give a Frock.”
That sums up this crowd’s attitude toward tznius.
How low can we go?
An out-of-towner-s perspective
I am an out-of-towner. The video made me cringe.
I do not know these women or their store. They seem genuinely nice. However, I thought I would pass out watching that video. I am not angry. Just so, so sad to see how much we have fallen.
We need a revolution. We simply need a revolution. G-d have mercy.
#86
LOL
TO # 5
i happen to agree with you. At the end of the day, it is between you and god and no one else.
To #32
Wonderfully written – I wish comments had a LIKE button.
hurts to say this... but LET MY PPL KNOW
re comment #89 you wrote:
“IT is between you and god and no one else”
most mitzvos are like that, (between man & god)
some mitzvos are very much (between man & man)
such as:
1. Noise levels that reach the public domains
2. Odors …
3. Visual-Sites brought to the eye of the public
4. If a THIS SIN is proven to bring suffering to the public (see comment #27) is it still ONLY “my private biz” -what i show to the public?
exposure of body parts that are (halachacly) covered is (according to Torah) harmful to the entire community!
how then do you say “its ONLY between man and god” when its known to impact the entire community!!
i sincerely apologies if any part in this comment insinuates that someone is bad or inferior! the truth is that we can ONLY know which ACTIONS are inferior we can never know which PERSON is inferior bec that’s really only know to Hashem
Sarah
Well…I think it’s a great idea, BUT I would have located the store in Manhattan, not Crown Heights. I think CH is a place to become “frum or frumer” not less frum. I’m a baal teshuva, and I think a store like that in the city would have been very useful, because the city is very untzniustic. But a store like that in Crown Heights… In my case… it’s like a “temptation”…I lived 24 years under the “sexy” mandate, I don’t want to hear it anymore. And now, I hear it in CH?!?
Don’t take me wrong, I think it’s important to be moderate and have stores like yours. And to open the doors to non religious Jews is the most wonderful mission of Chabad. If it wasn’t for Chabad, I would be married with a goy or so. Of course it took me a few YEARS to start dressing tznius. But if Chabad wouldn’t have accepted me with my pants first, I wouldn’t be wearing a long skirt now, keeping Shabbos, Kosher, etc.
I am sure you have a stronger “Ahavas Israel” than any other and congrats for that. So just a humble suggestion, go on with the project and your beautiful tznius clothes, just relocate the store to the city and don’t use the word sexy! Every other store uses it…
Respectfully,
Glad to not be living with all of you
The interviewer pushed them into saying “sexy”. they didnt just use that word on their own, and they dont publicise the frock swap as a ‘sexy’ shop. almost ALL the clothes there are tznius and they give tips on how to make the clothes MORE tznius if it is needed.
congratulations to ‘the forward’ for creating controversy. all of you crazy people fell for it. im so glad i left crown heights. the Rebbe would be ashamed of all of you people judging and shaming a fellow jew. may hashem judge you all with the same harshness on rosh hashana.
i agree w/everyone ; ) no real dispute
according to american secular law, how you dress in public
is governed by secular laws of “quality of life” & “public safety” & “public sensitivities” its not a free for all. -yes despite the 5th amendment.
yes even the secular world wont consider how you dress in “public” as private personal matter.
what you decide to show & expose to the public street, is tempered by “public nuisance & safty laws” that means that even secular common sense recognizes that we must take the impact we have on others into consideration.
secular law recognizes that there are certain “limits” (albeit much lower standards than those of jewish law)
yet these limits are there to protect the public interest.
the rational for those limits imposed by secular law include:
A) exposing areas that should be covered maybe offensive & a visual nuisance.
B) preserving a visual culture that is wholesome & safe for children to view & be raised in…
C) what one chooses to reveal in public to the eyes of the public in the shared space of the public, is NOT (private nor) an absolute right covered by the 5th amendment.
these common sense principles are remarkably relevant to Jewish laws of what may be exposed in public…
when we dress with dignity & self respect (as defined by Tora) we bring great blessings to our family & community.
When we fail to dress modestly it is hardly private business…
A) Public-Nuisance: untznius by a frum person is certainly offensive to many who value jewish law
B) Children learn from our actions more than from our words… if we show children that its ok to violate halacha due to personal issues… it follows why wont they apply the same to their own temptations?!
C) Choosing to show everyone (halchacly private) portions of the body brings calamity to a community, (at least according to Many Torah sources)
if you take this idea to its logical conclusion, this would mean that a public violator of tznius is similar in a sense to a predator who is a active threat to the public, by selfishly doing what they want even if it hurts others in many ways…
its the epitome of selfishness without consideration to the harm caused to others, this is the essence of all criminal acts… todo whatever I WANT regardless on how it affects others
conclusion:
i believe most frum tznius violators are NOT i repeat ARE NOT selfish or inconsiderate etc, rather its human nature for people to gradually loose focus… it is for this reason why all over Tanach we see this pattern where Hashem Jults us awake until it hurts too much & then we refocus (& hen the pattern starts all over again)
the question is, do we really want to test Hashem on this Ch”V?
since tznius was never taught properly in our schools… (go test any average graduate on the topic) hence there is a real need to educate the public as to the critical impact that tznius has on many areas of life & how tznius was one of THE defining virtue of jewish women for 3000 years without interruption so far…
apologies, this was not meant as an op-ed, cut.
Maybe....
I didnt have the patience to read all the comments, so maybe someone has already said what Im going to say. I think in many cases self esteem is an issue, but not always and not only.
Again, as someone already said, nothing happens in a vacume, so before any1 starts blaming not tznius women for tragedies in the community, just make sure that its not the community that has helped give birth to the warped value system that stresses the importance of the external…Im surprised that in many very frum community’s almost as much emphasis (if not as much)is placed on looks, money and a person’s last name as anywhere else….wierd.
I could be wrong but thats an important aspect of the issue, I think.
i like how u reconciled both sides NICE!
finally after 93 passionate comments, you decided to speak up & blend the valid points made by both sides of this issue,
on the one hand
you manage to clearly & UN-apologetically restate the bitter Tora-warnings re immodesty, no white-washing or diluting the Harsh truth (sometimes truth hurts)
so you said it as it is great!
then you smoothly switch gears..
and end off NOT judging the “violators” as being cruel “self-absorbed-heartless”… etc
instead of labeling them with all the stereotypes associated with the tznius-violators (desperate, immature, rebellious, shallow, low-self-esteem, doesnt-care-about-her-kids etc etc)
you chose instead to be “melamed zechus” that they are decent kind people who would never hurt a fly, you postulate that they innocently lost focus & never in a million years intended any lack of consideration, respect…
my only question for you is this,
do you also NOT judge those who judge the “violators” as “heartless predators to society”
i say that if you are consistent about not judging violators of Torah than you ought to extend your NON-judgmental “Limud zechus” to ALL misguided violators, yes even the (fabricated -i think) hypocritic who is said to checkout & harass slutty-ladies on Kingston Ave…
i offer the following “Limud zechus” nextime you see someone anti-immodesty -pro-halacha (wtvr) goes-too-far perhaps their bitterness is not Talibanic-hate but rather frustration about all the preventable Tragedies which keep escalating in frequentcy & severity!
The radical extreemism of Pinchas was motivated by compassion for all the suffering of the ongoing plague back then!
perhaps in the context of 27 years prison, countless young fathers & mothers dying leaving babies behind… perhaps in light of Bachurim dying one right after the other without a chance for “shiva” to catch its proverbial breath…
perhaps in this “Plague” context
perhaps to seek an end to the suffering is Compassion not radical-extreemism!
after all it was the Rebbe who always linked frequent tragedies with the need to fix up a decline in women’s modesty & Taharas Hamishpacha
(FYI: Taharas hamishpacha includes shmiras habris & negia vda”l)
perhaps in the obove context it is fathemable how a Ohev-yisroel would be bitter, disponded & willing to shout from the hill tops PLEASE PLEASE TRUST THE REBBE HE KNOWS HIS STUFF & HAS ONLY OUR BEST INTEREST IN MIND WHEN TEACHING US THE KEY TO STOP A SURGE IN TRAGEDIES…
lets all put our personal issues aside & strengthen our tznius etc one step (up) at a time! yes even a small step up is applauded by the Rebbe, because thats the most realist way to internalize the positive resolution, one small step at a time is the chabad way.
unbelivable.
These comments are absolutly ridiculous!! The tznius issue in crown hieghts is abhorrent, but this is not the way to fix it. you do realize that tomorow is Rosh Hashana? Hashem judges us tomorow, while your sitting here on the computor judging others today. how can you sit here critisizing these women who did genuinly try to make a more-tznius store, not exactly to the standard of halacha but they never claimed to. How many of you on here are completly tznius right now? Are your knees, elbows and colarbone covered? if not, you are a massive hypocrit. Im sorry, but judging people is for Hashem to do. Leave them alone. Their hearts were in the right place even if they did make a mistake.
really everyone? really.
i know almost everyone in the video, and therefore it is probable that i am biased. but i just want to say that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. how would u like it if you had every mistake of yours broadcasted, nitpicked, critisized, and disected. They meant no harm whatsoever! Who gives you the right to sit here juding people? especially when tomorow is yom hadin! how many of you sitting on the computors are even tznius!!? is your skirt riding up? are your elbows exposed? is your collorbone showing? if any of those answers are yes. you are a hypocrit, and you should be ashamed that you think you have the power to judge people.
To #22
Concerning the “self esteem” theory that so many people bring regarding this article.
How can children brought up in a community in which a massive percentage of said community relies so heavily on government funding/welfare, have self esteem. Perhaps teaching the children something they can actually make a living at when they become adults will instill a sense of pride, and alleviate this supposed crisis of a lack of self esteem.
Speaking of “evils” that destroy a community….. I hear that loshon hara is in no short supply in Crown Heights.
#99 u crack me up LOL
YOU WROTE “I hear that loshon hara is in no short supply in Crown Heights.
that is THE FUNIEST comment ive ever read!
im not sure you meant to be funny but it reminds me of the quote ”i told you a million times not to exaggerate”
#99 where does self esteem come from....
try this experiment, do something kind for someone else, or some good deed which is true to your inner most self!
when your actions are consistent with who you really are deep down when your true to your core beliefs, when you behavior is aligned with your inner sense of right and wrong
THIS is where true SOLID self esteem comes from!
any self worth based on superficial extrinsic (non achievement) qualities is like a shooting star, it vanishes in seconds & leaves you feeling even less adequate about yourself!
2 more documented sources of self esteem (for women at least) is to be in a deep loving communicative relationship with the closest male family member,
for un-married girl she needs a solid relationship with her Father
for a married ladies her self esteem is significantly dependent on how open & deep the relationship with her husband is, the more he cherishes her & makes her feel special & desirable the less she will crave cheap shallow a attention on the street!
bottom line:
Dads, give lots of love to your daughters.
Husbands, make her feel desirable at home… she wont be needy on the street! ….
RE: # 101 very well said!
i fully agree!
a women who gets plenty of love at home does not feel the need to attract unhealthy attention from others on the street