Posted to Communal Matters on

Rosenberg: “Braun Not Necessarily A Legitimate Rov”

CROWN HEIGHTS [CHI] — After we exclusively broke the bizarre news of a staunch supporter of Braun destroying key evidence, Rabbi Avrohom Roseberg clarified his opinion regarding the status of Rabbi Yosef Braun, while taking a jab at Zaki Tamir for his flagrant disregard of the Ikul.

In a ‘welcome ceremony’ in the offices of the Vaad Hakohol on Thursday night, Menachem Shagalow destroyed the Semicha certificate of R. Braun, which was a key piece of evidence in the matter and is vital to any inquiry regarding R. Brauns legitimacy.

On Sunday, March 13th, one of the zabla members, Rabbi Moshe Havlin emailed the other members of the Beis Din repeating his past demands that a date be set for a hearing to properly investigate R. Braun’s legitimacy and check into accusations that Braun forged a smicha document.

Rabbi Havlin also asked that the Beis Din inform R. Braun that his status is yet to be determined, and he should know that any action he takes is at his his own risk, and that he will not be able to hold the Beis Din liable.

Rabbi Rosenberg responded that he has not yet heard back from the other members of the Beis Din regarding the matter of setting a date.

In an ironic twist of fate, Rabbi Rosenberg mistakenly sent his email exchange with Rabbi Havlin, not only to the other zabla members, but to R. Braun as well.

In a followup email Rabbi Rosenberg apologized to the Beis Din for erroneously sending Braun the emails, but said that at the very least it will serve as a notification to Braun that there is still a hearing pending which will determine his status, and it isn’t 100% certain that he will emerge victorious.

After months of silence on the topic, this was the first indication from Rabbi Rosenberg that R’ Braun’s position as Rav in Crown Heights is yet to be determined. Braun’s supporters have repeatedly claimed that the case is closed and they have attempted to sweep under the carpet the allegation of forgery.

On Sunday, Tamir publicly notified the community about his intentions to ignore the Ikul, claiming to have been instructed to do so by Rabbi Rosenberg immediately following the issuance of the Ikkul by the Kraus Beis Din.

Rabbi Rosenberg responded in an email today, Monday March 14th, in which he denied instructing Tamir to ignore the Ikkul. Rabbi Rosenberg further noted “that the fact that Tamir wrote to me last week asking me what to do – which I did not respond to – clearly contradicts the notion that I [previously] gave instructions to ignore the Ikkul.”

Rabbi Rosenberg’s latest email puts Tamir in a position where he is clearly in defiance of a Ikkul/Psak from a Beis Din. He no longer can claim any Rabbinic backing to his actions. As someone who claims transparency and welcomes accountability, it is time for Tamir to step up and confront the issues. All along he has been claiming that he is only following the instructions of the Rabbonim, but now it has become apparent that he is making his own decisions.

The community has a right to ask: “Mr. Tamir, on what basis are you defying the Beis Din’s instructions not to engage R. Braun in any communal matters until the issues are resolved at Din Torah?” “Mr. Tamir, now that both Beis Dins (the Krauss Beis Din and the Rosenberg Beis Din) have clearly stated that R. Braun’s integrity is in question and his position as Rav is far from final, on what basis did you issue a statement that “I, personally, have total confidence in Rabbi Braun’s integrity, talent and his ability to fulfill his position of Rov in a manner that will honor the Rebbe’s schunah.”

As this article was going to press, Tamir addressed the latest Rosenberg emails by saying that he wants to “clarify” that he has not received any instructions from the Rosenberg Beis Din pro or con regarding the Ikkul. He then stated that he is therefore left to determine the course of action all on his own. “It is time for Tamir to realize that he represents an entire community and it is not a matter of his choice to follow or ignore the Ikkul/psak of a Beis Din. Unless he can produce an unequivocal Psak (in writing) from a Beis Din that he need not abide by the Ikkul, he is mandated by Halacha to adhere to the decision of the Krauss Beis Din,” said a prominent halachic authority.

Transparency and accountability dictate that Tamir immediately live up to his pledge before the hachtara that “if there is an Ikkul, of course we are obligated to comply.” He must immediately suspend all engagement with R. Braun and let due process (al pi halacha) take its course.

As far as R. Braun, one need not look back further than the “installation” ceremony where he told the story of the Chofetz Chaim who invoked the ‘shem’ against those who challenged his rabbinic authority. If Braun can not count on Rabbi Rosenberg to undue the Ikkul or that he will get off the hook by having Shagalow destroy the evidence, he might have no choice but to resort to invoking the ‘shem’ on his behalf.

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95 Comments

  • Was wondering where the other 4 were.

    Its about time that we hear from the other 4 members of the Zablah they were awfully silent and i couldn’t imagine that they all agreed with R Rosenberg, the shocking thing is that now Rosenberg seems to be flip flopping, perhaps he realizes that he was wrong and he cant just cover it up.

  • rf

    The story did not take place with the chofetz chaim. It happended with the Chasam Sofers son. Rabbi Braun himself said it with the girsa.

  • BS!!!

    “Rabbi Rosenberg’s latest email puts Tamir in a position where he is clearly in defiance of a Ikkul/Psak from a Beis Din.”

    No Ikul was ever sent to Zaki (as he clearly stated in his last post).

  • Wikileaks?

    Where did you get a copy of these private, internal bais din communications?

  • #2

    All we know is that Rabbi Havlin wants the beis din to have a hearing. as of yet, we have not heard of ANY disagreements to the public piskey dinim.

    If I’m wrong, please clarify.

  • consistent?!

    If you are holding by this ikkul from this Bais din, then you have to realize at the same time that this very Bais Din holds that Rabbi Osdoba is mesarev bi’din(as well as Rabbi Marlow z”l).
    In that case you should be working on removing Rabbi Osdoba from the Bais Din, as according to them he is someone who is mesarev bi’ din .
    And if you hold that their siruv on R.Osdoba is not valid, then surely they have no say in any other matters concerning our Bais din….
    In any case, we don’t need another Bais din to validate or invalidate the Rebbe’s Bais Din.

  • Appalled

    You wrote this: “If Braun can not count on Rabbi Rosenberg to undue the Ikkul or that he will get off the hook by having Shagalow destroy the evidence, he might have no choice but to resort to invoking the ‘shem’ on his behalf” Quite a claim to accuse R’ Braun of conspiring with Shagalow to destroy evidence. While he may not be 100 Rov yet, he also isn’t 100% not rov yet, so how dare you level such an accusation at him?

  • You couldnt make this up

    Purim is only once a year, this shpeel is going on far to long and is far to serious. What’s the next twist going to be?

  • Fed Up

    What do you expect of these people? They’re being run by an apikores who eats chazer b’far hesia! The fact that R’ Schwei allowed himself to be introduced by Sam Chanin in their little private ceremony in the Va’ad office brings into question not only the Va’ad, but R’ Schwei himself… And these are the people who you expect to be makpid about following the ikul?!

  • Erev Rav

    I have a perfect solution.

    Let Braun serve as a rov only between shkia and tzeis hakochavim.

  • A longtime community resident

    Perhaps there is yet hope for this community that we won’t have an unqualified, illegitimate, and dishonest individual forced on us by a few troublemakers. In any case, a Rabbinic position for life- that does not make sense.

  • corruption rules in CH

    #2, no, now that he can’t screw the community for any more money (MONEY THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED TO HELP CROWN HEIGHTS!!) he came clean. As long as he was getting paid he was siding with the fraudsters.

    His gravy train came to the end of the tracks. simple as that.

  • yankel der batlan

    i just have one question

    if anyone else (like hershkop or moshe rubashkin) did what menachem shagalov did (tearing up a semicha in front of this hand picked crowd)
    what would have been the reaction of these people….

    they would have had him arrested and then have all the rabbis issue big letter against them..

    and now all we have is silence..

    this was done in front of rabbi schwei where is his voice to condem this action……

  • I agree

    “It is time for Tamir to realize that he represents an entire community“ … a community which in its majority voted for Rabbi Braun Shlit”a! Accordingly, Tamir’s actions are in line with the will of the majority.

  • ahav

    you are all just bored with your lives. he is fine. do your chitas, and some maasim tovim and keep busy with life. he is fine

  • NO PROOF Yossel

    There is no proof that these emails are true.
    Anyone could write an email.

  • Zaki Isaac B. Tamir

    this is the ONLY communication from Rosenberg to show EVERYONE what the REBBE DEMENDED whan a rabbi said something it should be in WRITING.
    so Zaki is just a fraud one of hendel mendels goons.
    the community must IMPEACH zaki send him to lyozna.
    such a criminal have no place in Crown Heights

  • Eli

    What do all the pepole who say that the zablah has last word?? What do you say now? Huh?

  • Thank you

    Thank you so much for reporting this. After all that has been going on its important that we get an honest idea of what’s really going on instead of getting a staged false impression where we are all being fooled into something.

    Theses people are treating the CH community as ignorant people and they think that by hiding true facts we will all go along with it. The realty is that the truth will come out sooner or later, it always works that way, you can’t hide the troth for long.

    I thank you for giving us an honest report of what’s really going on you are doing a tremendous service to us all – The only way a honest resolution will be made is when the Bas Din feels they are accountable to the community who voted and our vice can only come out when we really know what’s going on and we aren’t being fooled.

  • o yes

    o yes i knew it i knew somethink didnt make sence all along. thanks C’HINFO for making everythink so clear. its all in the open now. every one just go back to work and let broin answer to the Bais din.

  • Doesn’t even act like a Rov

    Braun was spotted running around 770 like a headless chicken during Kriyah, alternating between telling people to be quite and talking himself, acting more like a Gabba then a Rov. The man is not dignified and is clueless. No one will look up to him and respect him, accept for a misguided few.
    If his Smicha was so valuable to him, why didn’t HE try to stop Shagalow?

  • sick of it

    the world is on fire and look what where dealing with.people who love POWER.

  • to #9

    According to your ‘cheshbon’ Rabbi Schwei is not worthy either to serve on the Beis Din. Therefore, there is no Beis Din!

  • Something smells...

    How did these documents get leaked to CHI.
    No one is supposed to have them except for the chavrei zablo!

    This is another op-ed.

  • Why?

    Why hasn’t Rabbi Krauss followed through with a hazmana to a new din torah?

  • Purim Rav

    What a pity! The ‘hachtara’ was done for nothing. But then again, the ‘hachtara’ crowned him as the Purim Rav, since a Purim Rav is not required to have smicha.

  • chaim

    Zaki you will be a one term elected person so do the right thing and maybe you will get some votes… go away fromt he hendels and spritzers and crooks join the jewish nationl!!!!

  • Yoelish from KY

    I am reading this thread and can’t believe the silence from the masses. The community is a total litzunas. In any other kehilah we woul have redone a few persons bris milah and their dental work. You people act like yekkas! No, I am wrong – even yekkas would react stronger. You act like sheep taken to the shlacht hoyz. People – you are being TAKEN. Everyone together say, Baaaa, baaaa,baaaa…

  • Insider

    I just got off the phone with D.W and he confirmed that Braun wanted to send the documents to Chabad Info but by mistake sent them to Crownheights.info that’s how these private emails were leaked.

  • Ariber Ariber

    A legitimate Question was Asked about Schwei’s reaction etc. The answer is He hasn’t received instructions from his controller’s etc. on what to answer.It is about time that Rosenberg came off his high horse & one of the member’s at least of the zabla finally said something

  • CHLEAKS.COM

    Stop the Corruption Stop the Fraud!
    The Crown Heights Jewish Community Council Inc. Received $6,473,482 (almost 7 million dollars),
    from the Weatherization program (WAP), where and how was this money spent?

    Find out more on:
    CHLEAKS.COM

    All this Braun stupidity and I’ll even go a far as to say the whole Zabla with everything that came before and after is nothing more then a ‘DISTRACTION’, to keep the people of Crown Heights busy with irrelevant and stupid discussion.

    The Mossrim and Ganovim (thieves) DISTRACT us, while they steal millions from the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council Inc. while we like dogs go fetch the bones they throw us.

    The CHJCC is corrupts from bottom up and must be dismantled.

    WHERE ARE THE MILLIONS (IN TAX PAYERS DOLLARS) STOLEN FROM THE NEEDY PEOPLE OF CROWN HEIGHTS?

  • Did You Know...

    Did You Know… That the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council Inc (CHJCC) received 10 million Dollars (that WIS is so far aware of) from governments grants between 2009 and current for the needy families of Crown Heights.

    Did You Know… that none of that money was used towards its true purpose and intent and was only used to fill private pockets.

    Did You Know… That while all this was happening (10 million missing), the thieves kept us quit distracted with stupidities like… Hijacked elections, Hostile takeovers, Shomrim Six Messira, Messira/Lawsuit of Rabonim, Mosdos, Gemachim and many private individuals. The best distractions was the whole Zablo Din Torah.

    Did You Know… That the Zablo Din Torah was a good investment for the thieves and Mossrim. They only had to dish out $150,000 of the millions they were stealing to keep us all distracted. I call that a darn good investment.

    Do you know where that money came from? From the 10 million of-course. (More of this to come).

    Did You Know… (Based on the above) That no matter the results of the Zablo Din Torah the thieves and Mossrim had already won. The checks (of millions) was already in their hand and resting nicely in their private bank accounts. (WIS will get back to this…Coming Up).

    Did You Know… that almost immediately after the Mosser and Ganef Chanina Sperlin was thrown out (by you) from the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council Inc. he went ahead and opened his own 501(c)(3), going by the name: Council of Jewish Organizations Ofcrown Heights.

    Did You Know… that Yosef B. Spielman also runs his own 501(c)(3), going by the name of: Vaad Hakol Crown Heights. (More about this scam coming up).

  • The Farmer

    Zaki,

    When I was a kid, we used to play soccer (our national sport there) in a field full of cow-pats. It was a challenge.

    You are faced with a similar challenge. You have stepped in it a few times, but this time you found another obstacle.

    If we are to understand your clarification correctly, in the absence of direct instructions for you to follow devotedly (a mantra you have used as a fig-leaf until now), you made a decision that (Rabbi) Braun is perfectly qualified and you are convinced of his integrity.

    Mr. Tamir. You have qualified yourself to make such a judgment, unilaterally, for the whole community ? For th scholars etc included? And then acted accordingly? And immediately? Without any “outside” consultation?

    You have jumped headlong, not into a mere cow-pat, but into an operating cesspool. And yes, merubim tzorchei amcha, and you are deep into tzorchei tzibbur.

    It is time for either a referendum of the majority in Crown Heights (the center people) about the total dissolution (and re-election) of all community positions. This could be done in conjunction with a mass rally in 770 DOWNSTAIRS (without the need to beg the gabbaim for a permit.)

  • from out of town

    just for clarity sake:
    i seem to remember in the earlier article on this (i think) rav. braun was shown holding onto a printed smicha (like a deploma). now- rav zinner does not give out such printed smichas. so this must of been a smicha from 770- rav labkovsky. he in turn keeps record of whoever received one. if he gave rav braun smichs then. for sure he can receive another fresh copy like 1-2-3.
    but if he never received one from rav labkowsky, then the one torn up belongs to someone else.
    (i just dont remember ever hearing that he received smicha from rav labkowsy, until this week.)
    if this is true then the whole story is a setup, and all those attending this meeting should be held accontable to the public and especially to hashem tisborech.

  • Clean Change

    To 37:

    Very well said.

    I would like to add.

    Being that the CHJCC is corrupted from bottom up, every single person who was ever part of that organzation, as a board member or employee must be thrown out.

    The place must be shut down and started over.

    i would ever suggest they get some Gentile kids straight out of collage to work in that office. Kids that will go by the book and won’t do any Shtick and diffidently will blow the whistle when corruption and fraud takes place.

    Out with the Old (everybody) and in with new

  • Observer

    This whole thing (especially ripping up the Smechia) looks like a skit straight out of “Professional’ Wrestling

  • Kinus for Change!

    Learn from the Arabs – when the people potest, they can make change, even from the harshest dictators. Are we stupider than those protesting Arabs????? Learn for Obama and vote for CHANGE…YES WE CAN!

  • Supporter of Rabbi Deutch

    #21 above wrote: “the community must IMPEACH zaki send him to lyozna” — and from time to time I have seen similar sentiments expressed by commentators here, seeming to imply that they are both off the derech and should be scorned.

    However it is crystal clear that Rabbi Deutch, “Lyozna Rebbe,” who went his own way out of disgust with Lubavitch due to the Meshichistim, would never condone Braun as acceptable for any position in any community, and certainly not for Rov.

    Indeed, it is about time for Zaki, along with everyone else in the community, to come around to appreciating the courage of Rabbi Deutch for pointing out the many obvious faults of the Meshichistim, and for refusing to cooperate with their fraudulent ways.

    Thank you Rabbi Deutch.

  • BigBen

    This whole story does not pass the smell test (in any sense of the phrase). I’m glad CHinfo is getting out the truth to the public.
    Zaki – please step down now.
    R.Schwei – vos darft eer dos hoben?
    R.Rosenburg – please refund all the money to Crown Heights.
    broin – get out your crayons & start making another semicho.
    shagalow – immediately take acting lessons.
    chanina/kadanr/polterek – get lost.

  • TO #38 - MIKE BERMAN

    PLEASE POST PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT TO DO ABOUT THIS WORRY.

  • TO #44

    Excellent comment – well stated.
    But regarding R’ Schwei – you should realize that there’s more to it. He is completely under the control of the terrorizing goons.

  • Der Echter Deutsch

    Lasagna Deutsch did not go his own way because of the meshichistim. He went his own way because he wrote a scurrilous and poorly researched biography of the Rebbe as a way to launch his career as a historian. Then, he used the meshichistim and teens going OTD as an excuse to find a shtible in Boro Park and declare himself…The Lasagna Rebbe.

    He is as fit to be a rebbe as Brownie is to be a rov. Only one publication, an extreme Hungarian rag which still fights the battles that both we and Satmar have forgotten long ago, refers to him as the Liozner Rebbe.

    Others, even fans of his museum, just call him by his name.

    I know for a fact that Deutsch cannot consume any alcohol whatsoever as he depends upon psychiatric medication which reacts with alcohol, especially wine. Were it not for that medication, he would indeed have to move his hoif and his museum to a suite of padded cells. Of course, any chassidim he has probably do come from padded cells, with the exception of his brother-in-law C. P. who is considered the largest scale crook in the online camera business.

    Indeed, in any other chassidus Deutsch would have had “his bris mila redone”. As it is, I have seen him at simchas in Crown Heights, ignored as he should be since we don’t even consider him worthy of a laugh in his face. The only death threats he ever got were the ones from the voices in his head.

    However, we risk becoming lasagna if we don’t completely reorganize. If it means having two community councils and two batei din until the old shells disintegrate, so be it. But this nonsense cannot continue unless we want to lose an entire generation in CH.

  • Gimpl

    How covenient to forget that the Liozner also feeds hundreds of families every week in CH.I’m sure failure to mention this was nothing more than an oversight among his many
    “admirers.” If he is so evil tell everyone not to take his especially generous Pesach packages which will soon be arriving.

  • sam

    lubavitch needs to be like williamsburgh and boro park and DO SOMETHING, make for them a “new bris mila”give klep. its a joke that zaki is in vaad hakohol, this isnt miami beach or LA, this is CROWN HEIGHTS, GET LOST ZAKI

  • Supporter of R- Deutsch

    Hey #47, your facts are ALL WRONG about Rabbi Deutsch.

    His books are not “scurrilous and poorly researched.” You just don’t like what he wrote (have you ever even read the books you condemn?).

    Nor is he out for kovod.

    Meshichistim and teens ARE going OTD.

    He didn’t “find” a shtible in BP, he FOUNDED one.

    He didn’t call himself “Lasagna.” His point was that Lubavitch as a whole is going OTD, and it was time to get back to basics (You will probably keep fressing chulent and “lasagna” though.

    If you are not a fan of his Museum then it is surely YOUR LOSS.

    Your comment about medication is totally irrelevant, and based on your track record for truth there is no reason to believe you. Even if true that he takes a medication, what is wrong with taking medication if one needs it? It sounds like you and most of the commentators here would benefit from medication, if you aren’t on something already.

    You also seem not to be aware of all the great chesed Rabbi Deutsch does in providing essential physical and spiritual needs to thousands of people.

    You are wrong again about his followers and supporters. They do not come from padded cells.

    Your slander of C.P. is to be expected. Seems you are jealous of any success of others.

    Again you’re wrong about what would happen “in any other chassidus.” BTW, it appears that Lubavitch today is in absolutely no way similar to any other Chassidus. In point of fact, Lubavitch today IS NO LONGER A WAY OF CHASSIDUS. The movement has been hijacked by impostors with very little being done to stop them.

    As for what you wrote, “we don’t even consider him worthy of a laugh in his face” — it is not your opinion that counts. He has done tremendously good things and deserves a yashar kochacho.

    The death threats and other illegal acts of terrorism were very real. The terrorists are still plying their trade all around you, have you not noticed? (Get your eyes and ears checked by a professional please.)

    At the end you finally started to get something right, a complete reorganization is definitely in order, and it is long overdue.

    However your solution sounds like it was conceived by someone who belongs in a padded cell.

    The only solution is to remove the Meshichistim from any and all positions of power and influence in Crown Heights and throughout the Lubavich world. This nonsense cannot be allowed to continue.

  • Burikes

    Why not put and end to the meshichistin , the lack of leadership , the chaos in one bold stroke , Let the elders sit down and choose a new Lubavitcher Rebbe, Ad masai ?

  • deliberate in judgement

    Unfortunately, this is what happens when we have forced on us a sham two week election of only TWO choices

    It’s not whether this person knows how to learn or miraculously “finds” his “Smicha”

    The fact is he misrepresented himself and misled the community. (Which shows how “erliche” he is)

    He was elected on false pretenses.

    He has therefore lost his credibility “chezkas Kashrus” (For what else will he fabricate in the future?)

    Furthermore, a Rav must be impartial. This person has demonstrated that he is under the influence of certain individuals and that is grounds for immediate termination. (This applies to any Rav, even the present Rabbis)

    Real Kovod HaTorah and Kavod Rabbonim demands that the person serving our community be free from all negative traits and influences. We need a person of exemplary character, not one who used subterfuge to gain his position.

    How can anyone now not wonder who or what, is influencing his decisions?

    At this time, we have had at least 5 candidates who have already been “elected”

    Let’s have a RECALL election where MULTIPLE candidates are eligible, and all have the true qualities and credentials that a Rav must possess, as well as being acceptable to ALL members of the community

    Let every candidate be “vetted” by an independent board of respected Rabbonim (not troublemakers or party hacks)
    Let every candidate openly disclose his supporters
    Let this person also run, with full and honest disclosure, of his credentials.

    And finally, let us be “deliberate in judgement” and take the time to decide properly, once and for all!

  • Shimmy

    There has been a lot of comments about Tamir.
    Guess who he’s related to?!

  • chaim pikky

    CH>info please do not post any posts about the lasagna rebbe he is not worth writing about and has left chabad ( BH ) and let him be he has caused alot of pain for himself and his family.

    His books were condemned by all gedolei israel and no store will sell it..

    He will have a day of reckoning when he dies !!! he wrote against the rebbe after he passed… he will suffer some day for that

  • Pessach Cleaning

    When is a non-Rov a Rov?
    When the fox guard the hen house;
    When the inmates run the asylum;
    When the dead are alive;
    When the chazer fresser is rosh hakohol;
    When we let them!

    Our true leaders, those who had the guts to sign a letter questioning the infamous P’sak that a non-smicha is a smicha – they should call a community meeting and we, the silent frightened majority should attend and support change.

    We should attend the meeting with brooms in our hands to sweep out the old corruption and start clean.

    Pessach cleaning starts at home and CH is our home!!!

  • The Lyozner Potz

    Zaki Isaac B. Tamir
    just said what rosenberg told him ?
    we dont know the thruth if rosenberg said or not.
    but we know for a fact that this rosenberg is not a real dayan. he is bending rulles or making them as he goes.
    if the rul was to be older than 40 this broin is not 40 yet.
    the deadline for candidates was x and he accepted him after the time.
    a candidate need smicha broin has NO SMICHA.
    how in the world can such a fraud lowlife be a Rabbi ?
    maybe all rabbis are like him ?
    i did not hear many Lubavitch rabbi,s screeming about this fraud.
    Broin is Hendel Mendel is SHASDY-Broin
    website creators against real rabbi’s.
    please mr broin take your hendel mendel and sam mamzer chanin to williamsburg where you belong.

  • From La La Land

    # 53
    Right on target. There were not even 2 candidates and you speak of many. Where is the otcheret (waiting line) for this position?

    On a practical note:

    There should be a new election – at least for a Rov. But we need to give the guy “due process of the law.” So we wait.

    One candidate is enough, BUT in order to make the position more attractive, and elicit candidates, the current 2 Rabbonim should be on the slate NOT that their position will be taken, but that out of 3+, whoever has the most votes counted becomes the Av Beis Din.

    This would smoke out the cobwebs.

  • Der Echter Deutsch

    Yes, I know Zaki is related to Deutsch by marriage. Let him become the Lasagner Rosh haKohol.

    And all of my information regarding the self-appointed rebbe can be corroborated with a bit of research. I did read his so-called book. It was not even written using proper grammar or sentence structure.

    Braun would be a perfect rav for the Lasagna kehilla (of 100 or so lost souls on yom tov and barely 10 on Shabbos). He could keep his smicha in the museum with the rest of the artifacts.

  • another dissatisfied CH resident

    #54…who???

    #36 – GREAT POST!!! These scammers need to be prosecuted just like they prosecuted the Shomrim Six. We need a full accounting. The books (not the cooked ones) need to be analyzed by an independent auditor…a goy from Wyoming or Podunk, IA who has no shychus to anybody here.

    You know what the real problem is? The squeaky wheel gets oiled. None of us “truthers” squeak, not even a peep. So the Shagalovs, Hendels & other sick people get away with everything.

    It may not be a direct connection, but I really believe that if Aguch would have stomped down on these lying, thieving animals on Daled Tammuz we would have a warm, healthy, financially secure & PEACEFUL community. Now we have nothing except abuse & machloykes.

  • Der Echter Deutsch

    58 has the best idea yet. Rav Marlow was the Av Beis Din, was he not? Given the present situation I do not think that Rav Osdoba has automatic claim to the title without it being affirmed either by an election or by an impartial Beis Din.

    What scares me is that I do not think an election would be fully impartial, and I wonder who would run for the rabbonus this time after the Braun debacle.

  • reuven

    for how long must you publish trash on this jewish rav. you say he isn’t legitimate; well, you are not legitimate either. just a flash in the wind. how bout some crap on ezagui or shvartza for a change…

  • OY VEH

    I HATE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN’T WE JUST HAVE TRUTH, DOES IT EXIST?
    IS EVERYONE JUST A BUNCH OF REACTIVE, EMOTIONAL, SICKOS???
    ALL OF YOU WHO ARE THE ABOVE, ARE REALLY MAKING A NEGATIVE DENT IN EVERYONE ELSES LIVES IN CROWN HEIGHTS.
    ITS
    SUCH
    A
    SHANDA
    TO
    THE REBBE

  • I thought the pish was gishmei brocha

    Ah groisen yasher koach to CHI for the public service of keeping us informed with the truth. The other site makes no mention of all this dreck. We, as a community are getting dumped on and many of us are cheering! Rabboisai – ez shtinkt! Keep us informed with the truth CHI!!!

  • Rabbi Rosenberg is Lucky

    The fact that the smicha was ripped up gives Rabbi Rosenberg the perfect excuse and reason to back out of this whole drama so easily. There are a lot of questions marks in this whole election and on his psak. Rabbi Rosenberg now doesn’t have to bother it with it anymore, he can easily back out.

    Rabbi Tzinner said that it wasn’t a smicha. Rabbi Rosenberg argued that there was a signed document which he considers good enough for smicha. Rabbi Osdoba’s side questioned the legitimacy of the document. Now that the document is gone and was ripped out — Rabbi Rosenberg and his Beis Din can close this whole din Torah hassle free without bothering to answer all those questions against his psak.

    I think Rabbi Rosenberg has his start shining that he can get out of this huge mess so easily. He had so much at stake before.

  • Chelmer chachomim

    This entire episode belongs in Chelm.
    Perhaps a movie should be made of this. It is guaranteed to win top prize. All you need is for all the roles to be played by the real people.

  • ANyway this is a mistake

    Technically speaking, there’s no way to “comply” with the ikul. It was issued after the hachtara. And apparently Krauss has made no further demands.

  • Roger & Mickey

    Can anyone substantiate the rumor that the Liozner will be throwing out the first ball on opening day of softball season?

  • Cheerleader

    Tamir won the elections – and we all cheered.
    A Din Torah – Zabloh was organized – and we all cheered.
    Elections were ordered – and we all cheered.
    Are we still cheering now??
    What are we – a bunch of cheerleaders??
    As a community – do we keep on cheering? Is this the “peace” we hoped to achieve? Is this our “dream”?
    This is a true “ad dlo yoda” – we were drunk with hope for a better future and we let down our guard.
    WHAT A LET DOWN!!!
    Tamir – YOU LET ME DOWN!
    Za-bloh Din Torah – YOU LET ME DOWN!
    Va’ad Hakohol elections – YOU LET ME DOWN!
    Stop the sheering and everyone do SOMETHING!
    Crown Heights Info – rally the masses!
    Ad mosai! Enough already! And enough with Chanin!
    If you are reading this, read out LOUD:
    I am mad as hell and I won’t take it anymore!

  • Rabbi W

    I just wanted to inform the public that my many attempts to respectfully present the Osdoba view on that other site failed. The censor of their site pretends to be an editor but what he really is, is the propoganda arm of hendel that carefully selects the pro Braun comments and censors out the anti Braun ones. Not once have a written a slander of Braun or a curse word, yet of my dozen or so comment submissions, not one of them were published!

    So when you see so many pro braun comments on collive, that’s because they censored out 95 percent of the anti braun ones. I used to actually be a fan of that other site until I noticed how they were an active propoganda arm of Hendel posing as a neutral and objective outsider. That’s where the danger lie, when people believe that the moderate and mainstream view is what that other site propogates. that other site are lying scum posing as journalists.

    Rabbi W from CH

  • Nachman Sanowicz

    Did Harav Rosenberg give you permission to publish these artifacts ???
    Can we know who did give you these memo’s was it some mechacherai riv that has access to sensitive Info which he should be removed from.

    My point is it is looking sloppy on both sides.

    This din torah is going for way to long it is time that we have a final verdict. It is causing to much Loshan Hara and rechilus and heipach of Nohagu Kovod Zeh Lozeh.

    One more point can all you brave people put names to your comments so it does not go in the category of a pashkvill ??? and for more oractical reasons.

  • Deliberate in Judgement 2

    #58

    I mean that we previously “elected” 5 Rabbonim (Raitport, Zirkind, Segal etc)

    They were, to an extent, disregarded because of politics etc.

    If a recall election was held under the guidelines mentioned- We could avert three problems

    1) We would have full disclosure of who is supporting every candidate. Everyone would then know the political leanings of the candidate, and make their decision accordingly

    2) We would insure that every candidate is truly qualified, for we would know the requirements beforehand

    3) We would not have any rash of rush decisions. Where is the fire? We have gone without a three member Beis Din for over 10 years.

    A third member will not equal unity or even shalom, for that matter. The reputation of the Beis Din is in shambles, of their own making.

    They have internal discord, and many have minimal respect and even derision of the entire Beis Din process. And our kids are scoffing at the entire show.

    The Beis din needs, for its own sake, to restore credibility and to restore to our community trust – that, instead of rushing to court, we can have trust that our rabbis, are honest and not under a particular influence, that they are not money hungry, and that they will give us rulings based on Torah, Yiras Shamayim, and Chassidus.
    And that they are respectful to the community, approachable and realize that they serve the community

    On this topic, why must these Rabbis get elected for life?
    Why not give the Rabbi a term like three to four years or, at least, a probation etc

    If he really is qualified and beloved to the community he will certainly get re-elected and if not…

    Finally, I truly believe that the women should have a vote in this. They are the Akeres Habayis, where a majority of questions arise, and they are the ones that most need a sensitive approachable Rav

  • to #67

    What hachtara? There was no valid hachtara. R’ Osdoba shlita said it was not al pi halacha.

  • TO #70

    Thank you! It’s about time someone exposed the bluff of that other site to the community.

  • From La La Land

    To # 72
    WHere are you. I don’t see you here in this land. Are you still in the admissions office.

    1) How does anything you say relate to what I wrote?

    2) Why does a candidate need to be supported by a group, or faction?

    3) If your suggestion is taken, and a Rov is elected for a term, then he will spend that term leaning towards the power broker. The foundin g fathers were deliberate in making Supreme Court judges a lifetime position (They can retire; in esssence a rov cannot. People may stop comig, bet he ia, by HALACHA definition, for life. Term-Rabbonim is an American concept.)
    4) By having existing Rabbonim appear on the ballot, without the intention of removing them, but so that their popular image can be guaged, would be a move in the direction of “term” Rabbonim. It would also make a mre attractive position for someone more qualified than this porcelain doll we now have to deal with, without breaking it. (He has a life and a family; but little sechel and too much ambition.)
    I still say, Let Braun have his due process; let the slow thinkers (who give their names or who son’t) have their say, and then there shouls be a rally or referrendum as someone suggested here.

  • to # 72

    I agree with you that there should be 5 rabbonim and women should vote.

    I would also suggest that they anyone involved in the beith din for the past 20 years should be disqualified and most impotently that all rabonim should agree not to have any backer and anyone else telling then their opinions and they should be 100% independent of the vaad hakhol.

  • The Fat Lady

    To # 70

    You have the wrong gender about who is the decision maker.

    The opera ain’t over until I sing.

  • The Fat Lady

    To #76 and 72

    No. We do not need to vote. We need to influence our husbands. Tell them how to vote. Just like we tell them what is tzniyudike dress. They lap it up.

  • Eyer und zvibel

    In the middle Ages and even in modernity , a scape goat was needed for the problems of society like the plague , poor economy, wars that went bad etc and who was blamed The JEW.
    Now CH has more thna its share of issues lack of leadership, conflicts, scandals etc So why take responsibility blame someone like Shimon Deutsch .
    Why doesn’t someone grow up and either accept responsibility or examine the situation for the truth.
    But don’t forget to accept those Oneg Shabbos packages !

  • Deliberate in Judgment 3

    # 53

    1) “How does anything you say relate to what I wrote?. There were not even 2 candidates and you speak of many”

    I answered you that there are multiple candidates who could again conceivably run. Some that have actually been previously “elected”

    This would insure an election with more than two candidates and give the community more of an actual choice.

    Let me know if that is that too hard for you to understand?
    2) “Why does a candidate need to be supported by a group, or faction?”
    They don’t need to be supported by a faction, but de-facto are. We have 2 distinct influences here, but we also have other power brokers with their own agendas, each one who will gravitate to or put up their own candidate

    I am just suggesting that the candidates own up to who their supporters are, something that we all know anyway, albeit through slander and pashkvilim. But I concede that it is not critical to the election process
    3) “If your suggestion is taken, and a Rov is elected for a term, then he will spend that term leaning towards the power broker.”

    Don’t be so melodramatic. This is not the supreme court! It is an election for community Rav.

    By using term limits etc, it will insure that the Rav realizes that he is ultimately responsible to the community who will have the
    collective opportunity to re-elect him (not allegiance, as you claim, to the power brokers. Just the opposite)

    Term-Limits for Rabbonim is NOT an “American concept”. It is utilized in MANY communities today, and has been employed for HUNDREDS of years.

    Some of the greatest Rabbis were dismissed by their communities
    and have you never heard the term Rabbi Emeritus?

    4) “By having existing Rabbonim appear on the ballot, etc so that their popular image can be guaged etc, would be a move in the direction of “term” Rabbonim. ”

    So what? Would you rather have a Rav who, being so confident in his life tenure, abandons his responsibility or treats the community with disdain? (and all this while still getting a paycheck?)

    If you are so concerned, then add a grandfather clause etc for the present Rabbis, or some other criteria etc. I just added the “term” business as an aside, but to be honest, I think it’s a good idea. If a majority of the community is dissatisfied with a Rav, I think he should resign.

    I’m all for due process. As I said let him run also. If the community really loves him they will re-elect him.

    Why do have such little faith in our community? We are G-d fearing Chassidim.

  • To # 71

    The first Rov who showed an example of “Lo nohagu kovod zeh lozeh” was our dear Horav Yankel Shwey, who sent out a letter to EVERY house in CH that Rabbi Ozdoba is a “Ganof” and his Hechsher is the worst in the entire world- Hachi Gorua mikol hoolom kulo“…..it’s not only ”lo nohagu kovod“, but rather ”Mevazeh“ the Rov (with shkorim)and spits on him befarhesya etc…etc…
    so how could you come with a Taanoh to peshutei amcho that they are ”lo nohagu Kovod“, they had a GREAT teacher…Horav Hatzadik Yankel Shwey who says its Mitzvah to do so ”vaani hamas’chil”…. Ahh Nachman??

  • Winston Churchill

    #80 “The deliberating shvantz in training”.

    You arrogance is only superseded by your ignorance. Check the multiple Saalos Utshuvoss on Rabonishe hissues.

    Your haste to respond to critique of your “deliberations” has caused you to misread.

    So kid, have it your way.

  • Deliberate

    My dear friend.

    Despite your lame insults, it is you who is misinformed.

    Everything is not black and white

    If you hire a Rav with a contract, then his position and TENURE is dependent on the terms of the contract, subject to renewal

    I know you are naive, but that is the simple reality in this world and it is according to Halacha.

    There are many case examples that prove this and it happens all the time.

    Happy Purim

  • You can-t respect without self-respect

    The issue is: If a rov is like an eved ivri – then he should have a term contract (like an eved ivri of 6 years), if a rov is like an eved knani – then it is a job for life (l’olam bohem ta’avodo, avodas perach).

    But the REAL issue: When is a rov not a rov? When he doesn’t have smicha! Let’s get rid of this phoney!

    Before anyone says, how dare I speak without respect, I shall answer them: Let us first have a bit of self-respect.

  • rebbe

    see also Igros Kodesh Vol 20 pp 210 regarding the Rebbe’s position on removing rabbonim

  • Rebbe-s letters

    Regarding removing a Rov from his position – something debated on this forum, please look up these 2 letters from the Rebbe.

    Igros Kodesh Vol. 20 pp 28-29
    Igros Kodesh Vol 20 pp 210

  • Zakis stupid claims

    Zaki Writes:

    “In fact, the ikul itself was not appropriately served to the Vaad Hakohol, but instead a copy was faxed to the Vaad Hakashrus office.”

    This coming from the mouth of an attorney (?).

    1. This is not the secular court of law.

    2. Zaki Tamir (almost immediately) posted the Ikul on his very own web site.
    http://votetamir.blogspot.c…

    This would be like someo0ne posting a lawsuit that he “didn’t receive” , on his facebook page and then coming to court and claiming he never received it.

    3. The Ikul was posted on CrownHeights.info and on Collive.com

  • king messiah

    this is real purim.
    yossi broin has a note from ???
    his father
    yay ya ya le le le la la la

    Hendel mendel is the king messiah

  • TO #87 and #88

    If your comments are referring to “Rabbi” Braun, then your comments are irrelevant, because he is not a Rav.

  • to 80 and 81

    To 80: In the very begining the netzigim wrote that the Rabbonim will be for a term of 3 years and the Rebbe said no. Closed case.

    To 81: Got news for you the first to write a public letter against the other was rabbi Osdoba against Rabbi Schwei this was proven at the Din Tora by the dates of the letters.

  • Peerimer Rov

    Ah – so MH”M is Mendel Hendel Moshiach – is that what you are trying to say?

    good Purim Torah!

  • Yodeah Hakol

    To # 93
    TO the great Deliberator it is irrelevant what anyone wrote.

    He ksows that it’s done all the time.
    Same as shaven beards, untzniyusdike dress. It’s done, so it’s done. All the time.