Beis Din Rules on Rabbi Brauns Election
BREAKING NEWS: A controversial ruling has just been released over the fate of Rabbi Yosef Braun, who was elected to the Crown Heights Bais Din, and is center of much controversy.
A ruling signed by Rabbi Avrohom Rosenberg, who presided over the special Bais Din, has upheld the disputed election of Rabbi Yosef Braun, despite allegations dishonesty, following 4 months of deliberations.
Rosenberg, the Monsey Dayan who presided over the Din Torah to resolve the gridlock in the community leadership, has released his ruling late Monday.
“It is clear that Rabbi Yosef Yeshaya Braun Shlita was elected by law and it is the duty of the Vaad Hakohol to end the negotiations in regard to his contract no later than this coming Adar Alef,” the Psak stated.
“After the contract is signed – the sooner the better, they should hold a coronation ceremony like they have held for the other elected rabbis.”
The psak stated that “the public should treat with respect and the same is with the other rabbis in the community to cooperate with him.”
Ruling Leaves More Questions than Answers
Questions are being raised regarding why the ruling has only been signed by Rabbi Rosenberg, when after so many months of deliberations, and on a decision this important not all 5 of the rabbis have signed the ruling.
Compounding the issues are the facts that many points that Rabbi Rosenberg mentions in the psak are incomplete, and rather than full disclosure he simply makes mention of the issues, and dismisses them or claims that they are irrelevant according to Halacha.
In conversations with a source close to the issue he said, “I don’t want to get into a dispute whether or not Halacha mandates full disclosure, but amid so much controversy and so many questions regarding Brauns legitimacy, and the limited time to given to research candidates, I don’t see any reason not to be open and honest, unless there is something to hide.”
Despite the fact that Braun initially publicized the document from Rabbi Gavriel Zinner as an endorsement for the Rabonus elections, and only later made the claim that it was actually a Semicha.
Some serious concerns about Brauns credibility have not been addressed, although Rosenberg mentions in a footnote “there was absolutely no trickery on Rabbi Yosef Brauns part…” a bold statement which is not substantiated even once throughout the psak.
Summing up all the arguments made by Braun in his defense, the earliest Semicha he claims to have is from a mere three years ago, which means that he served as the Rabbi of a community without Semicha for over seven years, and even opened a Semicha program, “doesn’t that raise questions regarding his credibility? Questions that deserve actual answers?” said the source.
Others have pointed out that Rosenberg was the only rabbi of the 5 members of the Zabla that signed the ruling, which speaks to a disagreement within the Beis Din.
Meaningless
Rabbi Rosenberg was 100% nogia bdovar, he was paid $250,000 and he didn’t bother to check the candidates qualification.
How can he claim that he has Smicha when the person who supposedly gave him smicha denies it?
This ruling is his attempt to cover-up his mistakes. We will not accept Y. Braun as our rov.
Disgraceful!
Where are the other 4?
How come the other 4 Rabbonim didn’t sign this paper? Are their opinions not valid? Until this embarrassment of a ruling came out all 5 of them sign the rulings of the Zabla?
I for one do not accept Mr. Braun as my Rov. I actually have Smicah!
Eli
A few points..
Only one signature this is very unusual at a case of this magnitude.
We in CH were just snow jobed by a bunch of guys who not one of them lives or comes from Crown Heights.
LOL.
Let the party continue.
Rosenberg, are you seriously just gonna walk away on [potentially] another quarter million like that?!
Mazal Tov!
Thank you http://www.crownheights.info. I’m impressed that you posted this story in the manner befitting the final acceptance of a Rov to the community. (despite your personal opinions)
From today I have more respect for this website.
All the best!
Yeah
So…Rosenberg who is not a luavitcher decides that another non Lubavitcher should come here and be made a rov.
Even though he has no qualifications and zero experience and not to mention no smicha whatsoever.
Rabbi Rosenberg
Rabbi Rosenberg: Please don’t teach me how to learn Pshat in the Rebbe’s words…! I don’t even think you ever saw the Rebbe let alone learn his Sichos and Maamorim
Welcome To Crown Heights R-Broin Shlit a
Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V’Rabeinu Melech HaMoshiach L’Olam Voed!
Chezi
Lol the guy hardly ever wears a white shirt
Terrible example to the Bocherim
We have now shown all Lubavitcher Bocherim that one need not listen to the Rebbe, one doesn’t actually need Smicha to be a Rov!
This psak will not be accepted by the majority of Lubavitchers who went through the system and actually got Smicha.
Resident
The other Rabbi’s didn’t want to sign, interesting.
Even if he comes here, it’s over, hes nothing.
What changed?
If I recall correctly one of the big ‘problems’ with Rabbi Bogomilsky (for those that do not remember he was the highest vote-getter Rabbi that ran in the elections) was, that he signed a psak while the other Rabbonim of the din torah left town…it is so Ironic that the Zabla would put out the same type of letter here.
I wonder if Asimov got to Rosenberg – to the point that he just acted alone.
2 Rabbonim
He signs “in the name of the Beth Din”! Does that mean that Rabbi Yurkovitch and Rabbi Hecht called the Rebbe “Ziya” or “Zatzal”? Wow! It’s about time they did Teshuva!
voter
Thanks for the good news.
Mazal Tov!
Finaly we have some closure to all this nonsence…. Hopfuly this will be a steping stone in a posotive direction, where each of the 3 Rabbonim Shlit“o will focus on servicing the needs of the community, and hopefully, with time, they will be able to cooperate with each other on issues and matters that will benefit the ENTIRE community.
Mazal Tov to Rabbi Braun Shlit”o. Yaarich Yomim Al Mamlachto
counting our lucky stars down under
lucky is australia in particular the city of sydney
woa to his poor children who will be dragged across the ocean to a place where they are not wanted
A New Beginning
Now that Crown Heights has 3 Rabbonim, let us hope and pray that each will find ways that he can personally help the growth of our community. and with time, slowly, they will learn to do more things together, as a group.
Let us all help this be a new beginning for our Holy neighborhood – Kan Tziva Hashem Es Hbrocho!
Give Him a Chance!
Rabbi Braun is a young, dynamic Rov. Whether you campaigned for him or against him, mark my word, he will be a tremendous asset for the rapidly growing younger generation (the older generation will never stop bickering…)
Now that he is in, PLEASE don’t put unnesocery obsticles in his way, GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO PROVE HIMSELF AND SUCCEED IN BENEFITING ALL OF US!
# 16
For your inormation: Jewish poeple dont count “lucky stars” – this is against the ways of the Torah (even if only an expression). I’m just pointing out the obvious.
a happy ch member
mazel tov mazel tov welcome to CH hundreds of people are eagerly waiting you arrival with full support and backing
shalom
is he going to bring peace here? can he?
Cheder teacher in Sydney.
I have had the zechus of teaching some of Rabbi & Rebbetzin’s lovely children.
Sydney is NOT going to be better off, we are losing a family of amazing proportions.
The schools that these kids go to, will soon see what assets they have been given.I have always known that the apple does not fall for from the tree…… when you meet these children, the people of Crown Heights will see what type of family they are getting.
let us grow up
I sure hope that we will be wise enough and mature enough to accept this Psak Din, and do everything in our power to assist in the success of this. OUR CHILDREN ARE AT STAKE. let us try to bring some stability to our community.
whether you voted for him or not, let us all try to help the entire Bais Din heal it’s wounds and re-establish itself “Lesheim Ulitiferes”.
..SHAME ON ALL OF YOU
SHAME ON ALL OF YOU WHO ARE SPEAKING LOSHON HORA ABOUT HIM!!!!
THERE EXIST CHANCES YOU KNOW………
Yechiel Cohen
Dispelling one claim after another, Rabbi Resenberg articulately makes his case, and that of the Beis Din he represents, for the validity of the recent Rabbonim elections.
He begins his letter by quoting the four main ‘challenges’ to Rabbi Braun’s eligibility:
1. The ‘inadequate’ time to properly vet Rabbi Braun’s prior to the elections due to his late candidacy submission.
2. Rabbi Braun’s lack of Yodin Yodin ordination (Dayonus).
3. His ‘lack’ of Yoreh Yoreh (Semicha).
4. the Rebbe’s purported dictum banning a serving Rov from leaving his post.
He also makes note that there were other ‘challenges’ which don’t even warrant response.
Regarding the first challenge, Rabbi Rosenberg completely refutes the notion, stating that it’s devoid of any Halachic ‘content’, and it definitely cannot annul the elections.
About the second point, Rabbi Rosenberg is quick to point out that in the 1987 Rabbonim elections two of the appointees did not posses Dayonus.
Regarding the allegations that Rabbi Braun did not even posses Semicha, Rabbi Rosenberg says the Beis Din finds Rabbi Zinner’s Semicha valid.
About the fourth assertion Rabbi Rosenberg quotes a letter from the Rebbe sent to the Jewish community in Antwerp stating only that a Rov wishing to leave his post must carefully weigh the advantages and disadvantages his move will bring.
Based on the above, Rabbi Rosenberg unequivocally rules that Rabbi Braun was legitimately elected and the Vaad Hakohol has until Rosh Chodesh Adar to close on a contract with him, and that a coronation ceremony should be held as was in previous appointments.
I fully accept election results
I voted for Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky, because I thought he was very qualified for the position. but now, I fully accept the election results and the psak din.
We need to have a functioning Beis Did for the benefit of our entire community. We need to see to it that Rabbi Braun is given a fair chance to prove himself to both those who voted for Rabbi Bogomilsky and those who voted for Rabbi Brun.
He is a Rov for the entire community. by badmouthing him, and trying to besmirch his name, we are stabbing ourselves in the back! our wives, children, youth need to see us respect Rabbonim. if they see us talking negatively about our rabbonim, and not accepting their authority – how do you expect them to grow as healthy, frum, chassidishe people.
A rov is not a Malach! He is not infallible. but we still need to respect Rabbonim.
We should learn from the Rebbe how to give Kovod to Rabbonim
Friend
The funny thing is that Braun still want to come here. Well, most of the community will really never have what to do with him anyways. I hope he keeps his contacts in Sydney. Oh forgot, they don’t want him there either. Good luck to him.
Read the psak
In this psak are written very clearly that
1. Rabbi Tzinner’s letter is indeed smicha; and
2. Rabbi Braun has another smicha which is dated one year prior to the elections;
3. In response to the challenges to Rabbi Tzinner’s letter, he has received two other smichas (yoireh yoireh and yodin yodin).
Now let’s all accept the Bais Din’s ruling and ensure sholom!!!
crazy
this is a joke. hel come here looking like a nut
#2
Did you get a toutor to be able to pass the Semicha Test? Did you learn anything beyond the Mechaber, Ram”o and maybe the Bair Heiteiv to pass Semicha?
Do you even know how to learn Gemoro in-depth (without artscroll)? Did you get the Euro-Pass???
just because you got semicha, do you believe you are a legitimate Talmid Chochom? Do you think you qualify to be a REAL ROV in a Frum community (not just a pulpit rabbi with a nice smile…)?
By contrast, anyone that knows Rabbi Braun personally, knows he has a brilliant mind, and is a genuian Talmid Chochom! live with it.
BCH
I guess we will have two botei din from now on. Oh well, it’s just a reflection of the split that is already a reality in Lubavith. Instead of forcing false ‘achdus’ which is in truth no achdus but a perpetual machlokes, why not let the two kehiols just go their separate ways? ONE “to the left”, the other “to the right”, to paraphrase the famous posuk…
Wizard of Oz
I have yet to meet a chabad shliach that does not have a smicha hanging on their office wall or close too it. Yet our new Rov seemingly ain’t got jack. Can’t he just go to Kfar Chabad and get smicha like a mentch? Something is wrong in Kansas Toto and the wizard (who flopped) with 250k seems to done working…
Whats he hiding?
So now Rosenberg is calming that Braun has Smicha but he wont tell us from whom? What are they hiding?
The eaker is to bring moshieach
Can I ask u guys a questoin do u think r Rosenberg is just doing this bec he screwed up really badly and thay fooled him he made a huge mistake and doesent want it to look like he made a mistake and if he admits it will show that he is not that good at what he is Doing .I think it’s a embaresment to him that he is not coming out and saying I made a mistake I screwed up and let’s try to move on don’t u think this is gonna couse more tzoros and u know what I even start to think will these politics about rabbonom ever end it’s been going on for years already this is far far gonna help us bring moshieach isent that our our our only goal right now to bring moshieach the only way by doing that is only only only thrugh achdus one more time achdus is the only way but the huge problom is it’s really hard to do that especcely when there are abunch of old people that thay care more about kobod respect and money then the main point which is to bring moshieach through achdus Yisrael guys let’s do this anybody with any ideas please comment
Rosenberg the Joker
If Rosenberg says it’s true then it must be true!
Ha ha ha ha ha, Really the guy who made a mistake wants to cover his behind says so so it must be true.
The guy who got paid more then must of us will make in five year messed up and now is covering for himself says so so it must be true?
Joke of the century!
antimesira
Turns out that The first “PSAK” didn’t mean anything, this “PSAK doesn’t mean anything as-well.
cma
Did any of the people who wrote negative comments, actually read the psak with its footnotes?
A very worried oserver
To all of Toshvai Haschuna Shlita,
I WILL BE BRIEF AND TO THE POINT!
IF THE COMMUNITY TAKES THIS TRASH SITTING DOWN & IF THIS COMES TO BE A REALITY CH”V,
YISGADAL………
With love and concern,
A very worried oserver
BCH
to # 37:
I did have the distinct ‘pleasure’ of reading this psak (“with the footnotes”). I was horrified to see that very the psak that demands that we give the this man “all the proper kovod” does so by being mevaze a famous talmid chochom (Rabii Tziner) berabim by declaring that “he is not to be believed that he did not mean the letter he gave to Mr(?) Rabbi(?) Braun to be a real smicha”. I now ask you – what good can possibly come from a venture that starts with such a grave sin?
#32
I may have not been very clear. many detractors point to the fact that they have semicha. what are they trying to prove by that, that because the followed the Horoah of the Rebbe, they are now Rabbonim, and Poskim, smarter then everyone else?
Yes, you may have semicha, and that is great. but just because you were tested by Rabbi Yeruslavsky or others, doesn’t suddenly make you a Talmid Chacham. There are MANY MANY Lubavitcher GREAT Talmidey Chachomim and astonishing Geonim. but to be that, you need to LEARN much, much more then just the stranded semicha, you have to learn lots of Gemoro, Poskim – in-depth Shailos Utshuvos etc.
I am not Chas Veshalom puting down any semicha, but the smugness of some of the commentors here and in the recent past – pinting to their Semicha is laghable. someone that can learn doesn’t need to point to his semicha paper as proof of his knowledge, just speak to him in learning for several minutes and it will become abundantly clear as to his knowledge and depth in Torah knowlege.
Bottom line, please don’t show me your signed semicha from Rabbi Yerushlavsky as proof that you are on the same learning/knowledge level as our newly elected Rov Shlit’o.
Is Lubavitch Smicha worthless?
@ 30
So you, like Rosenberg believe that Lubavitch Smicha is a waste of time?
But at least i have this worthless Smicha (like the Rebbe wanted), Braun doesn’t even have that!
Moshiach Now!
Wow, now finally we may be able to have some peace and quite.
I beg all members of our beautiful community: Please give this new Rabbi a chance to prove himself and speak for himself. we need to give him a chance to succeed…
fresh new future
Why all these sour grapes. lets put the elections behind us and focus on a fresh, new future.
i hope and pray
even though i wanted rabbi bogomisly to win, we need to accept the reality and hope & pray that this new rabbi does a good job for all of our shchuna
Can you learn?
having semicha or the lack thereof does not reflect at all at ones level of Yedias Hatorah.
Sure, the Rebbe wanted that all lubavitchers get semicha, but just because you have “only” semicha, doesn’t reflect at all as to your level of knowledge.
If you are a Talmid Chochom then you are (and probably wouldn’t spend time writing on this or any other blog). but it’s not the semicha paper that proves it…
chosid
You people are making me regret the decision to move to “Kan Tziva.” Disgusting. This not what Torah demands of yidden. And there’s no need to speak of chasidim when the basics in shulchan oruch are being completely ignored. Derech eretz kodem ltorah but you like a bunch of cheder children point at your semichos like they mean anything.
Not surprised
I didn’t think that Rosenberg would rule any differently, after all had he ruled that Braun did not have Smicha he may have had to return part or all of the $250,000 he was paid to oversee this election, a job he seems to have failed at miserably.
Nachman Sanowicz
I am overjoyed that the simonim of moshiach are here in full strength Chutzpa Yasga. Here we have a Cashuva Rov Hagoon Rabbi Rosenberg giving out a Teshuva which those that are learnt will appreciate the fine points and here comes the TB’s giving their opinion of Rabbi Rosenberg whether he is qualified to give an opinion. Is there any bigger Chutzpa ???
This is similair to the mechutzaf who ridiculed Rabbi G.M. Garelik on Crownheights.info
I am saddened that this is happening in the Rebbes shchuna which the rebbe put so much emphasis in election for Rabonim and we as chasidim can’t seem to give this Nachas Ruach to the Rebbe and once and for all give respect to the elected Rabonim and stop the Machloikes.
To Rabbi Broin Chazak Veemotz
@ 48. Nachman Sanowicz
And what right did “Cashuva Rov Hagoon Rabbi Rosenberg” have in publicly calling Cashuva Rov Hagoon Rabbi Tzinner a liar?
No Smicha is no Smicha!
If Y. Braun really had another legitimate Smicha, why was it necessary for the psak to discuss Rabbi Tzinners so-called Smicha at all?
Yechi Asimov!
Mayby if we say “Yechi” enough times, Asimov will return again….
I’m going to start saying it now…
Far Up
Unless your head is really far up, there is no way these antics will bring moshiach any closer.
Shloimy
I think a new website should be put up that people can sign their name in order that we should know who Rabbi Braun is Rov over. I would be surprised if he represents more than 1000 people.
This is a joke. Rosenberg is a high paid clown who likes ruling in matters that he has a vested interest in.
Braun is not my Rov. Period. Mendel Hendel and his goons are welcome though to spend lots of $$$ for a grand hachtoro party, and help CH’s struggling economy.
Inside-Man
Let’s see…
The Beth Din never had an effect on my life.
The Beth Din will never have an effect on my life.
I have my Rov and so does a good 85% of Crown Heights has their own Rov.
Ye Bruan, No Bruan, it makes no difference to me, to my kids and all the people around me.
This is what is going to happen, I am not a Prophet, I’m just smart, learning from the past.
Just like in the past, it was the so called “Koved HaRabonim” people (the people we know as the Mossrim today) who destroyed the Beth Din and the Rabbi’s on the Beth Din. They got rid of Rabbi Heller, they killed Rabbi Marlow, they lynched Rabbi Osdoba. Now they have Bruan, they will get rid of Schwei and it won’t be long until they fight with Braun.
The fact of the matter: there is no money to pay the other Rabbi’s, they are still owed, there is no money to pay Braun.
The question is:
How did the Mossrim pay Rabbi Rosenberg, did they steal (like they do everything else), from the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council Inc. funds, which comes from government grants?
How did they pay the Rabbi’s all these years, is it from the CHJCC, grant money? How will they pay Braun, grant money?
In any case, the house is coming down. Braun is irrelevant or better yet, hes as relevant as the Beth Din was all along.
Bribery Blinds
… and you shall not take bribery, for bribery blinds the eyes of the wise, and twists the words of the righteous.” [16:19]
$250,000 is a lot of money.
Rosenberg making a mistake means giving up some of that money and once money gets warm in the pocket, its very hard to give up.
This matter should have been taken in front of another Zabla (with Rosenberg as a Defendant).
Cunfused Rosenberg
Page two, foot notes:
I didn’t know that it was a requirement in the first Psak the the candidate for Rov must get along with both current Rabonim.
Rabbi Rosenbergs logic is so upside-down.
If Rabbi Bogomolsky would have won (which by the way he did), even if people would complain that Rabbi Bogmilsky as a fact does not get along with Schwei (which he does), so what, that was never a requirement.
About the mesira thing. Also twisted logic.
If the Beth Din said they can’t run because of the claims of mesira and then we find out they are not mossrim then they have a claim. But the Beth Din didn’t say anything (yes or no), they were allowed to run and they lost (for what reason they lost is irrelevant).
In the Vaads case, the people were presented with all the facts and they decided.
With Bruan the people were not presented with all the facts (they were fooled).
ABOUT THE MESIRA CLAIMS AGAINST CHANINA SPERLIN AND ELIE POLTORAK, NU LETS HAVE A DIN TORAH ABOUT IT. IF THE MOSSRIM FEEL THEY WERE WRONGED THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE A DIN TORAH ON THIS MATTER, LETS FIND OUT IF THEY ARE MOSSRIM.
IF THEY ARE MOSSRIM, THEN THE CANDIDATE THEY PRESENTED IS NOT GOOD EITHER!
#50
It’s pretty clear that you did not read the Psak Din.
It clearly states that it validates Rabbi Tziner’s Semicha, so that it should be clear that Rabbi Braun had Semicha BEFORE the election. because of the whole purposely generated controversy (and pressure exerted on Rabbi Tziner Shlit”o) Rabbi Braun went ahead AFTER the elections and got another Semicha and Dayonus.
The Psak Din also talks about another semicha dated over a year prior to the elections.
To number 50
In case you didnt know, Rabbi Broun ran a Semicha Program in Sydney, and he brought Rabbi Tziner to give Semicha to the bochrim.
Its abundantly clear that Rabbi Tziner know Rabbi Braun very well and had lengthily Halachic discussions with him.
Do you believe that all that is written in the letter signed by Rabbi Tziner is untrue? are you saying that Rabbi Tzinner just signs anything that comes his way?
If this is your opinion of his judgment, would you respect a man that acts this way?
Rabbi Tziner does not claim that even one word is untrue. only (after enoromous presure, he said that he does not want to be involved in any fights and) that his intention with the letter was not actual semich but rather “support” for him becoming a rov in a comunity and testimony that he is a very knowledgeable Rov. but as Rabbi Rosenberg rightfully points out, any objective reader of the letter will conclude that in contains ALL the ‘ingrediance’ for a bona fide Semicha 100%
Politics Wins!
Crown Heights is now the laughing stock of the Jewish world. A community that values politics more than Torah knowledge!
Anyway 770 has a smicha program so Mr Braun can get smicha there whild he is doing on the job shimush with the Rabbonim.
Psak Din
We need to be mature adults. I voted Rabbi M. Bogomilsky. Rabbi Braun won. Lets move on and except it. why are there some that will never concede defeat (can it even be called defeat?)?
We need to move on in life and let the community begin to heal its wounds. we cannot continue bickering forever?
are we frum Jews? frum yiden folow halacha. when there is a dispute (even between the greatest men!) it must be settled in a bais din. once a bais din rules – we MUST accept the psak – whether we like it or not. if we don’t then we don’t follow the Shulchan Aruch – The Torah (and its purely about our ego!).
Stop badmouthing Rabbi Braun! Let him come to town and try to prove to — and earn our respect.
Chaim
I love Rabbi Osdobo and Rabbi Bogomilsky!
Torah mandates that we follow the ruling of a Din Torah and certainly not wage war against it.
Just another Shocked Yid
One point Rabbi tzinner made thats being overlooked is that Rabbi Broun was one of the Masmichim on the buchrim’s smicha in the Sidny smicha program.
This forces two obvius conclusions
1. Rabbi braun giving smicha to others when he himself did not have smicha is very questionable behavior.
2. Rabbi Tziner certainly thought that Rabbi Braun had smicha and the letter he gave to Rabbi braun was on false assumptions.
Milhouse
#25. How does he “completely refute” the first challenge? He doesn’t even refute it a little bit. He simply dismisses it with the utterly conclusory statement that it’s without merit. On the contrary, it’s a strong argument, and Rosenberg’s cavalier dismissal shows what a hack he is. We should treat his decision with the same disdain with which he treats us.
His acceptance of the Tzinner smicha seems to be premised on the notion that even if it was not intended as a smicha, Braun believed in good faith that it was. But R Tzinner says that he did not draft the language, but rather Braun gave it to him to sign. If Braun prepared the language, and they had not already agreed that he was to get smicha, then surely he knew R Tzinner was not giving him smicha, and his reliance on it was in bad faith. Rosenberg doesn’t really address this head-on, instead imputing all sorts of things to R Tziner that are not there in his two letters. If Rosenberg were serious about getting to the bottom of this he would have subpoenaed R Tzinner to testify. Surely R Tzinner would not have ignored the possuk “im lo yagid”.
Milhouse
#28, Yes, I’ve read the psak. I just see no reason at all to obey it, or to treat it with any respect. Not everything that is written is true.
Milhouse
#37, Why would you think we hadn’t read it? If you think it’s so great you’re easily impressed.
It-s not over untill it-s over
Wait a minute.
It’s not over yet.
According to Rabbi Rosenberg’s original Psak Dain (the First one he wrote before the elections) he writes that after the current elections all 3 Rabbonim will need to sit together, deliberate together and sign together.
Rabbi Rosenberg, in his original Psak Din, put TEETH in to his Psak where he says the “OR ELSE”.
He writes in his Original Psak Din that if one of the 3 will refuse to accept his Psak Din and to sit together as a united Beis Din of 3, then THAT RAV WILL BE OUT (and will need to be replaced with another election).
I think we all “know” which one of the current 3 is not likely to accept Rabbi Rosenberg’s current Psak Din and so we can get ready for the next election to replace him.
I think we all understand that there is little doubt that within the next 24 hours, there will be a letter out form Rabbi Osdoba where he says that he does not accept this Psak by rabbi Rosenberg. At that point the verdict of Rabbi Osdoba is already predefined in Rabbi Rosenbegs original Psak din, where he gave these 3 Rabbonim and ultimatum that either they listen to the Psak and all sit together, deliberate together and pasken together OR ELSE he says, that if any one of the 3 says he refuses to do that the HE is out.
Get ready for the next election to replace 1 of current 3 who will most likely refuse to be a team player and will undoubtedly NOT cooperate with this Psak Din.
Toshav CH
To Yossi Braun:
You can always learn Smicha, then when your done with all Smicha tests become the Rav!!!
Rabbi Yadin Yadin
It is inconceivable that a shakran (liar) in public can be a dayan. Rabbi Rosenberg knows that, and he knows that he cannot alter the halacha.
So what is this all about?
He may call the “paper” a smicha, even though the author says it was not an empowering document (which is what smicha is all about.)
That would be acceptable (if nauseating) provided it was accompanied by at least a majority of the Zabla signing onto such a psak.
However, what does he do with the known fact in Sydney, that he didn’t have smicha? That he promoted himself here as a mushmach in order to be elected? That he gave smicha to others – which is a truly audacious fraud (playing with other peoples credentials)?
There must be more to this.
Furthermore, Rabbi Rosneberg surely knows the concept and the halacha of kinyan beto’uss, as very well applied in a case in Siman 25 (at the end) of Hilchos Dayanim in Shulchan Aruch (as Rabbi Kantor pointed out in his psak.). Rosenberg is no fool. If he did not know beforehand, then Reb Yoel and his cosigners informed him that many people voted on false pretenses.
He is also ignoring the fact that the Rebbe wanted everyone to have smicha before marrying, and now we will have a Dayan in the Rebbes daled amos who is a meikal bedivrey Rabeinu? For a Vizhnitzer chosid “eyn hanezek shoyveh”, It is no serious matter even ignoring the Vizhnitzer Rebbe in his backyard, his hoif. It happens. So Rosenberg is no rogue. An “oihev ess hakessef”? Yes. (See Hilchos Dayanim 8:1, at the end, interesting).
So what is this “psak”? How does it make sense for an erlicher yid (lefi erech) to ignore this fraud business? (O.K. so in Rumania where Vizhnitz is rooted “fraud business” is … but in a Beis Din or a Zabla?)
My theory is something else. We need time to see.
Meanwhile, the Alter Rebbe left prison, chassidim were absolutely and hysterically elated, So he wrote the Igeress Kotointi (#2 in Tanya.) So what did he write? First of all, he demanded humility towards the misnagdim (who would endanger a yiddishe life, let alone that of a Gaon and a Tzaddik.) Do not go poking them in the nose and laughing. Secondly, he demanded “emess la’amitoy”, which lost him thousands of chassidim.
There are those who are beseeching an atmosphere of sholom. All the way from Melbourne (Australia),where it is said of the Lubavitcher community there that “ein bayiss asher eyn sham…” with kids leaving the derech, even they proffer their wise advice, “Emess vesholom”.
My sentiments exactly. But NOT “sheker veshalom”. Their fellow travellers will be stirring up “didan natzach” victory slurs. (Would this have happened if the shoe fell on the other foot?) Sheker can not lead to emess vesholom, and all the other beautiful phrases and slogans commanded so well by the “flower generation” of Chabad.
My suspicion is, that there is a private “deal” between Rosenberg and Braun.
He will clear his name, pasken that he is Kosher; and Braun should exit by asking an exhorbitant amount which will not be met. The issue will thus be resolvd. Lechatchileh Arunter. Who knows, maybe Rabbi Rosenberg offered a taste of the loot? Just to resolve the debacle he may have shown generosity. Vizhnitz is known as the chassiduss of ahava vochessed.
mordechai
to #38, it is well known from Gemara and Seforim, about besmirching Talmidie Chaochmim.l IT does not qualify anywhere if he is MIshechist or Anti, you are oblogated to respect him. If you have a problem, move to Flatbush, there you can say what you want, how you want, when you want.
In lubavitch we follow a shulchan Aruch, not ourselves.
The Rabbonim have spoken!
B”H now that the Rabbonim have spoken. Anyone who is a Chosid or Jew or has Yiras Shomaim knows, They have the LAST WORD. And no one DARE to open their mouth against a Psak Din. PERIOD
Yankle
Below are comments from an intellectual, motivated (and modest) Oholi Torah graduate, who has over the years developed chutzpa, survival and social skills; upon Smicha completion, proceeded to university, and from there honed skills to form the honest, objective, critically-thinking opinion he has today.
Obviously this is not a pleasant issue, and secrets should not be kept from those who need to be informed, but the embarrassment that such actively is brining to Rabbi Braun is inappropriate for any decent person, but especially for people who claim (and naturally don’t always act) to be religious.
I am most certainly not going with the false assumption (calling it false kind of gives it away) that being frum means one’s perfect, but this kind of publicity in against everything our holy Torah stands for.
I know Lashan Harah, for ridiculous reasons, is considered a “snag fixation,” but the reality remains that it’s a lav d’orysa.
Think of Rabbi Braun’s family, and the family’s of the other people made mention.
I naturally don’t have the answers, but some things just stink. With our level of education (I am assuming most readers have gone through what’s known as the “system”) we are empowered to be aware of the truth. As a child who covers their eyes, assuming others can’t see them, we should not do the same by claiming such violations are for the betterment of the community.
Granted, it is frustration, but nonetheless inappropriate, and most importantly—wrong by ALL measures.
The story about the Rebbe Rashab (I think) in regards to giving his haskama on a Lashon Hara sefer. He denied the offer, for he explained that even the twitch of the nose is considered lashan hara (there are more details, but I’m sure you get the point).
If we don’t believe these precepts to be true, than ultimately, what follow them? What the heck are we doing here?
Granted there are convinces to continue in the ways of our parents, and to that which we’ve observed our entire lives. But one hopes that we have developed an appreciation and truth to our teachings. There is great incentive to stay in the community (including the community at large), but I sure pray that is not what is happening here (yes—ruach shtus—but we’ll get there).
The bottom line……….Im l’baal–l’baal. Eem L’shem—L’shem.
Again, we are not perfect, but l’chatchila is very different from bidieved.
I am no longer a resident of Crown Heights, but if I was, I would have voted for someone other than Rabbi Braun. This is not an emotional appeal in order make my comment appealing. For reasons which don’t matter, I would not have voted for Rabbi Braun, and Boruch HaShem we have the freedom to make such decisions (this isn’t Iran or Iraq).
So while I do have reason to be upset at the situation, that does not justify behavior as such presented here, and on many other websites.
Remember the story about the Chosid and Litvack discussing lashan harah and beard shaving (again, the very short version)? The chosid responded of course lashon hara is wrong, but shaving is harder to rationalize for it [the lav of shaving one’s beard] is done l’chatchila.
We do not expect perfection, but discussions as such should be dealt with appropriately.
Thank you for reading.
tipshim
The same respect that we have for the Rabbonim now , guaranteed we will have for this Rabbi too. Zilch plus Zilch equals Zilches.
Brilliant does not equal Rov
can you learn and others: you completely missed the point.Lomdus l’chud and Rabbanus l’chud. You can say a great pilpul and still not be a Rov. There are plenty brilliant minds all over the world,doctors, lawyers, businessmen and yes, even Rosh Yeshivas. that does not a Rov make.
R“L, I see Reform coming to us here in CH. All you people who have no concept of halacha think that it’s enough to be a bright scholar to be a Rov. Don’t you care about the next generation? Do you really want a ”Rov” with no smicha, no experience or knowledge in practical halacha to be responsible for gittin and kiddushin, geirus, kashrus, schechita? Dinei Torah?
By the way, did anyone investigate Rosenberg’s semicha?
ashamed to live here
I think he got Smicha online or maybe one of these correspondence courses. Sydney is laughing like hyenas at our stupidity, they are delighted he’s going. They despise him & blame him for all the machloykes over there.
Who decided this Rosenberg was going to pasken on his own decisions? L’havdil it’s like that witch Judge Reade deciding if she was biased during SMR’s trial. Why is this the end of the road? Go back to the Beis din & demand they paskern on WHEN this guy got Smicha. Remove Rosenberg, sue him for the money (report him to the IRS, make him declare it as salary) He has a hell of a nerve saying there was no time to investigate the candidates. LIES!
Well, this is ONE PERSON who definitely won’t listen to a thing braun says. If he says its sunny I’m packing an umbrella. No Crown Heights Beis din for me, I don’t trust any of them.
We’re finished. get me the hell out of here.
Daniel
Paying Rabbi Rosenberg $250.000 for his “services” is disgusting by any standard!
A Resident of CH
Finally this doubt is over. Ain simcha kipisron hasfaikos. Mazel Tov Rabbi Braun and Mazel Tov to CH. We look forward to your arrival.
Hwye Knott
Dear “ashamed” (#74):
Frought, gezunta heit! (bevackashah)
the sky-s the limit
According to Rabbi Roseberg Mr Braun who has been making outrageous demands in terms of salary can make the sky the limit because the Vaad is required to settle with him no matter what. And the community is required to pay no matter what. If he is realy smart he’ll ask for a million dollars a year.After all, if he can out politic a community of politicians he deserves it.
You notice that no where does Rabbi Rosenber hold Mr Braun accountable for anything, since he’s a man without smicha, what do you expect
chaim dovber
Braun simply does not have semicha.
he cannot avoid that reaality.
he served a community without qualifications.
let him rectify the situation and then his name forward for whatever position he desires
please do not come th CH and add to the already high level of chaos
mordechai
Since everyone here is quoting the Rebbe (had the Rebbe not told us that G-D exists, we would all be Kofrim Chas“V) the Rebbe certainly never condoned besmirching and Talmid Chochom like the way it is being done over here.
I would like to add, whethere you like it or not, and Rov (presiding over a Bies Din Zabl”A) has Paskened its P’sak. Now granted that does not force you to listen to their P’sak (being you did not sign the Shtar Bierurin), you are Mechuyav to listen to the Rabbonim of you Town that you reside in, and certainly not do something (B’Machshava, B’dibur, B’measeh) that contradicts the Rabonim in your town. If, for whatever reason you dont like the Rabboim in your town, you can get up and leave, Hlacha does not make you live in a certain town (although does require you to live in a frum town!).
With all said and done, it seems to me, that people are not happy with the the fact that the current Status Quo is about to change, from lawlessness to a functioning Bies Din with three sitting Rabbonim. To some people they preffered that they could do all they want with none daring to say a word to them, and that is changing, and to these people, this is the last thing they want.
Asimov Rants # 1 Fan
the reason he gives as to why Rabbi Tziners letter counts is hilarious! He says that you wouldnt write such a loshon for chizuk unless he was deserving of smicha! otherwise he would have just written plain words of chizuk!
There Is Nothing New Under The Sun
There Is Nothing New Under The Sun
whoever thinks that Moshiach is here. look at Brun,
dose he looks like the moshiach?
25 years this community is fighting.
since the young rabbis were elected. and r schwei
was elected and than 3 new rabbis elected and
now the Braun is elected what changed ??????
all are special interest Groups thinking about
their own agenda and prapeganda.
i promise you all MOSHIACH IS NOT HERE YET!!!
only hadel memdel has now 2 Puppets intead of one.
and let the Puppet show continue ……..
yossele
how do you know that rosenberg asked for 250k?
he definately wasn’t paid anywhere near that amount.
al eile ani bochiho
OK guys “kan tzorich livkois” time is over turn to next page.
why should the others signe?
If you looked at the original Psak you would see that the Bais din wrote that Rabbi Rosenberg will run the elections. Here there was a question about the election NOT a din Torah. so there is no reason for them all to signe. If rabbi Ozdeba’s side feels there is a problom he will need to pay to call the Bais din together to pasken on a Taneh. untill that happenes this is a formality that is part of rabbi rosenbergs job.
Crunch
Did anyone think of asking to see Rabbi Resenberg’s smicha?
Join the movement!
Appealing a Case
Question:
How was Rabbi Rosenberg allowed to appeal or not appeal his own decision/Psak in the first place?
Where is it heard of that a Judge decides on appealing his own decision?
There is a reason that an ‘APPEAL COURT’ was put in to place.
Must of the complaints against Bruan were based on on Rabbi Rosenbergs ‘Psak’, which would also make these complaint be against Rabbi Rosenberg himself, so how was it that he was allowed to decide his own case?
This matter (all the complaints against Braun and Rosenberg) should have been taken to a different Beth Din or Zabla.
An unbiased observer
A Zabla is a Zabla!!!!!
Chilul Hashem Gadol for all those which are besmirching the ruling of the Zabla Beis Din irrelevent of your personal opinion. Is this Lubavitch. Shame onto us. The fire of Machlokes is spreading wide and far. Black on white: If you can not accept the ruling of a Beis Din you have no Cheleik with our holy Rebbe, and are simply part of Korach Veeidaso. Woe on to us that the Rebbe has received such a mutated form of Chassidim who hav no Chassidus or Ahavas Yisrael and are rather a burning trend of their own oversizes ego.
Please stop this batterig and do Teshuvah
The king is dead long live the king
looks like Crown Heights is dead issue.
you had elections for Vaad and 7 months later nothing improved same old stupidity. now you have a new “Rabbi/Mr”
will be crownd as hendel mendel right hand men and nothing will change.
only the young girls and ladys will be his fans when he will flash them with his iPhone.
have fun Crown heights the boy with iPhone is on his way.
chutspah has limits
chinfo should close itself down for having the chutspa of posting comments which are disrespectful to our newly elected rov shlitah
Anti fraud
I do not plan on accepting him as my Rov. I will not ask him shallos or sell him my chometz or pay tax money to the schuna as that will benefit this fraud.
When are we voting next?
I hear that Rabbi Osdoba already has a letter ready, stating that he will not listen to the Psak, he is only working out the wording before releasing the letter.
As per Rabbi Rosenberg’s original Psak din, any 1 of the 3 who refuses to cooperate is out by default, which means we are now headed for another election to replace Rabbi Osdoba, the moment Rabbi Osdoba makes public his letter of non-Cooperation, with Rosenberg’s Psak Din.
It’s time to start thinking about new candidates. We can still get Rabbi Bogomilsky elected, as soon as Rabbi Osdoba makes his resignation official.
Rabbi Heller was Rav and he quit. Rabbi Osdoba is no worse than Rabbi Heller and he may quit if he so chooses.
I will vote for Bogomilsky to replace Rabbi Osdoba.
End the madness
I voted for Rabbi Bogomilsky, and my vote did not win. I did not vote against anyone, I just have immense respect for the man. However, he lost, and another reputable individual won.
The community must unite, ignore the defamation and slander, and allow Rabbi Braun to enter his position in a suitable manner.
The current members of the Beis Din must (not by my orders, but by those of the Zablo to which they are legally bound) welcome Rabbi Braun to his position and help him gain the respect of a community recovering from the disaster of Machlokes.
Two words for Braun
STAY HOME!
to Mrs Braun
Perlong the life of your husband keep him out of crown heights.
if you want to loose him, send him to crown heights.
Toras Emes
As Frum Yidden, we are bound by the Torah! Halacha states clearly that we all MUST follow the Psak Din of a Kosher Beis Din!!!
Whether we like it or not. If we chose not to follow, and to attempt to sabotage and railroad the results – we have nothing to do with Torah/Halach or even the Rebbe!
The Rebbe stated countless times that Lubavitch follows Halacha 1000% and if you don’t – don’t call yourself Lubavitch (or at least claim to speak in the name of it)
old timer
this community has been full of machlokes from the very beginning when osdoba and co. became rabbonim. I live here from Rabbi Dworkin’s time. There was no machlokes. We had a rov, If someone didn’t like something he did, he kept quiet for kovod harabonim. He was accepted by everyone in CH and out of CH. Since the original 3 rabbonim were elected, machlokes started and has not stopped yet. Braun will make it worse.why come to a place that you are not wanted? We need a new slate. new vaad hakohol, new rabbonim etc.
hashem yishmor. you are right kan tzrichim livkos.
ENGLISH PLEASE
Why isn’t the pask being translated into English for the many who want to read what the psak says?
Rabbis
#97 I doubt you here since Rabbi Dworkins times and you don’t know that the first and biggest machlokes was in his times. Parshas Fisher is known to everyone. The story with the Union Street mikve was in Rabbi Dworkins times.
Where is Rabbi Kantor?
In the last article about this issue, Rabbi Kantor was courageous enough to post his insightful comments, using his name. Who, may I ask, has now terrorized him into silence?
#100 Re: Rabbi Kantor
Maybe Rabbi Kantor is an Ehrilech Yid, who ACCEPTS A PSAK DIN whether he likes it or not.
It doesn’t matter how YOU think about it. Torah mandates that we all ACCEPT the ruling of the Zablo Bais Din – regardless of our emotions on the matter. (one does not need to agree with a Psak – but we must FOLLOW! the psak)
To Toras Emess
You are correct.
Follow the psak of a Kosher Beis Din.
The issue here is the matters Rosenberg conveniently overlooked. Like, how come Sydney didn’t find out that Braun had finally received smicha? Could it be that ….
He overlooked tht besides Brauns being meikal in the Rebbe’s’ shitah of a Rov not moving (a policy he most likely did NOT have in 1954 – 9 years after the Holocausst when priorities were different; and the Rebbe did not yet have thousands of Rabbonim who DID listen to what he said.) If you think that Rosenberg is a Kosher Dauyan Yechidi to sign off on that, which on oits own was known before the election, but creates a pattern when we learn that he didn’t do the moost basic (ad to him sim0le) request of receiving smicha, THEN is this the Kosher Beis-Din-Zabla to tell us we were dupoed. He is not for the Rebbe’s shchunah evei=en if he is not lying.
Contradiction
From what R’ Rosenberg states about R’ Tzinner’s document, he is basically invalidating R’ Tzinner’s insistence that the document he signed is not a smicha. In that case, the entire document is invalid, since R’ Rosenberg has invalidated R’ Tzinner’s opinions! So the candidate did not have smicha, and ran on a false premise, so the entire election was invalid!
Replty to #101
This psak was not from the Zabla Bais Din. It was R’ Rosenberg’s document to answer himself up and cover himself up. He was the only one who signed – no other member of the Zabla Bais Din signed, as was the case with all other documents emanating from this Bais Din. There is therefore no reason for R’ Kantor or anyone else, for the matter, to accept this.
Insult to the sicha
Since when does smicha mean someone who is worthy of having smicha? It’s obvious to anyone reading the sicha that it means someone who HAS smicha. (Even to Rabbi Rosenberg this was obvious until he had to answer himself up.) Why are Hendel and his followers not protesting this insult to the words of the sicha?