I would like to clarify my position regarding holding the elections, that have been discussed lately.
In my opinion one should not vote in these elections (for Vaad Hakohol etc and Gaboim) for the simple reason: the idea of elections is to give an equal opportunity to upstanding and honest individuals to be elected to the important role of Gaboim and community activists. In the present situation there is no possibility to maintain this fundamental provision.
Rabbi Osdoba Clarifies his Position on the Elections, Rabbi Schwei Responds as Elections Draw Closer
The following is a letter that was released late last week by Rabbi Avrohom Osdoba clarifying his position regarding the upcoming elections for the Vaad Hakohol and Gaboim. In response Rabbi Aharon Yaakov Schwei redistributed his letter from the last elections. Last night there was a meeting where the candidates of the upcoming elections got to introduce the basis of their campaigns. An article with videos will soon follow.
To the members of the community,
I would like to clarify my position regarding holding the elections, that have been discussed lately.
In my opinion one should not vote in these elections (for Vaad Hakohol etc and Gaboim) for the simple reason: the idea of elections is to give an equal opportunity to upstanding and honest individuals to be elected to the important role of Gaboim and community activists. In the present situation there is no possibility to maintain this fundamental provision.
During the past four years, three election campaigns have taken place in our neighborhood: 1. Vaad Hakohol. 2. Gaboim. 3. Rabbonim, in which the community let their view be known as to who they deem appropriate to serve in each of the three above mentioned capacities. Unfortunately, they faced opposition from a certain Rav, Who disqualified several of those elected without basis in Halacha. The situation deteriorated to the extent that a schism developed within the Beis Din, (which is an explicit prohibition under the rubric of “Lo Tisgodadu” (Rambam Hil. Avoda Zara 12: 14 where it says: “this causes great controversy”)), within the Vaad Hakohol, the Gaboim, (and the Netzigim). (The three Rabbonim that were elected by the community sent three summons to a Din Torah to the above mentioned Rav (who disqualified them) through a neutral Beis Din, and it is their hope that matters will be settled in accordance to Halacha and in the best possible manner).
The rift among the Netzigim
Amid all the above mentioned disagreements, the one which is currently pertinent is the split among the Netzigim that are responsible to organize the elections. The regulations of the Netzigim, as outlined in the by-laws, is that they appoint upon themselves (through internal elections) a governing board known as the “executive committee”, headed by a chairman, a vice-chairman, etc. The function of this board is to administer the Netzigim, to call meetings etc.
Recently an intolerable situation has developed: there are two groups calling themselves the “executive committee”. (An appalling conflict!). One of these factions is organizing the elections under discussion. The opposing faction has summoned their opponents to a Din Torah, claiming that under the by-laws they have no authority, since they were not voted in by the majority of the Netzigim of the shuls.
Moreover, among the candidates that have been approved, as has recently been made public, there are several that have offended communal representatives in a vulgar manner, thereby being disqualified according to Halacha to be appointed to a leadership position (as stated in Shulchan Oruch Choshen Mishpat 37:22). Is it tenable that these individuals be handed the opportunity to act as lay leaders in the community? [This constitutes a case of the Talmudic dictum] “a violator prospering?!” (Avoda Zara 2b).
The rift in the Beis Din
According to the by-laws of the Netzigim all disagreements, misunderstandings etc that arise between the Netzigim organizing the elections and those running for election, the Vaad Hakohol, the Gaboim, or between the Netzigim themselves, at every juncture during the election process, – which is likely as experience has shown – should be brought before the members of the Beis Din.
In the present situation this is unattainable. There is a split in the Beis Din – one of the members has opened a separate Beis Din in violation of “Lo Tisgodadu”. See Rambam Hil. Avoda Zara 14: 14 “included in this prohibition is that there should not be two batei dinim .. since this causes great controversy, as the passuk states ”10 tisgodadu“ [from which chazal derive] do not make ‘agudos agudos’ [separate factions]”.
When an aforementioned disagreement arises, there is no solution. Because X will approach Beis Din A and Y will agree to appear only before Beis Din B. Elaboration on the fire of Machlokes etc that will rage as a result of this is superfluous.
The Rebbe surely doesn’t desire such elections. (See Sefer Hasichos 5747 p. 289: [Hashem says] “what place could be My resting place” – since it is possible to build a house for Me that is not “My resting place” G- forbid, i.e. when the building is connected with matters that are contrary to Shulchan Aruch, [such as] infringing on another’s business and the like, (a mitzva which is achieved by means of an aveira). Hence the requirement to stress that one ought to build a house that will be “My resting place”, in accordance with Shulchan Aruch).
I do not G-d forbid lament holding elections and I have not come to invalidate them. On the contrary, concern should be placed to uphold the elections in the manner fitting their importance, to the delight of those elected and of the entire community that they represent. Thereby no one will disrespect those elected, as we have witnessed in the past few years.
Therefore, in my opinion, as per the ruling of the Beis Din on 3rd Shvat 5769, the above must be rectified in order to hold elections based upon true and solid foundations, for the benefit of the entire neighborhood.
In light of all of the above: until the aforementioned issues are corrected, one should not partake, in these elections. And whoever does participate in them adds to the strife and to the destruction of the community.
In the name of the Beis Din, With prayer for immediate peace in our community, and that we merit to journey along the path that leads towards, the ultimate preparation for Matan Torah – “The Yidden encamped at the mountain -like one man with one heart”
Rabbi Avrohom Osdoba
Rabbi Schwei’s response letter;
To the executive committee of the Netzigim: R’ Yisroel Best, R’ Mendel Schneerson, R’ Yisroel Sandhaus, R’ Yisroel Landa
Peace and blessings,
In response to your questions regarding a letter that was sent by Horav Ozdoba Shlito, to certain members of the Netzigim, regarding the elections to the board of directors for Vaad hakohol/CHJCC and for the Gabboim of 770, I would like to respond as follows:
The letter begins correctly, stating, that according to the Rebbes Sichos and based on Shulchon Oruch, elections should be held for public servants. Based on that, the Community holds elections every 3 years.
However, in a manner that is very shocking, the letter from there on, continues to use distortions of facts and irrelevant issues, in order to overturn the very same Sichos and sources in Halocho quoted in his own letter, and to cancel the scheduled elections this year The real reason behind his decision, which for obvious reasons he cannot admit to, is to allow the people who he benefits from, to maintain power and control over the Kehilas finances.
Therefore, I am making my opinion clear, that there is no basis whatsoever, according to Halocho, to cancel or defer the elections, and to go against the clear directives of the Rebbe. Even if what he claimed was true, that would still have no effect on the elections, since those issues have no relevance at all.
However, because of the commandment to be clean for Hashem and Israel (viheyisem nekiyim mehashem umiyisroel), I will respond to those charges in his letter.
I have never invalidated any of the previous Vaad Hakohol elections, and neither did I interfere in its process (despite my personal feelings that there were conflicts of interests for certain members to run). In addition to that, the Rebbe has issued a clear directive to the Rabbonim in 5746: not to invalidate candidates running for Vaad Hakohol, and not to interfere with the process. Despite the Rebbes clear directive to him, he has just recently issued a letter, to 2 members of the current Vaad Hakohol, and disqualified them from running in the upcoming election. To distort the facts and to say, that it is I who
has invalidated previous elections. when it is he, that disqualified candidates in the upcoming elections, (without a Din Torah, and even without a summons to a Din Torah), is the epitome of falsehood and deceit!
There is no comparison whatsoever in all of this, to the so called ”elections“ for Rabbonim, where it is well known from the Rebbes Sichos that Rabbonim have to approve such a candidacy and not laymen (Baalei Batim). I objected to them then, and still do now, to the corrupt process that took place at the lime, and even had a signed agreement with Rabbi Ozdoba to defer those elections until they can be held by a neutral party and in an honest and respectable manner as befits Rabbonim. However, it was Rabbi Ozdoba himself, who violated his own consent agreement, and issued a letter authorizing the election to continue for 5 days. only a few hours after signing the agreement!
He also claims, that after elections were held, no one would have the audacity to interfere with the work of elected officials, thus subverting the will of the people. It seems like he has a very short memory, as he himself has constantly attacked the previous Yoishev Rosh for almost 3 years, and totally paralyzed the previous Vaad from functioning as it should. Therefore, it is he, who has actually subverted the will of the people in the strongest forml
He further goes on to state that I’ve been summoned to a neutral Beis Din by ”Rabbonim“ and that they are awaiting my response and that the elections should be deferred until that Beis Din resolves the issues. This is so absurd for a few reasons. Why should the Vaad Hakohol and Gabboim elections be deferred until a Beis Din resolves the claims of those ”Rabbonim“? Whats the connection? He also conveniently omits, that those ”Rabbonim“ have already been summoned to a Beis Din of a Zablo. and have refused to respond, and are currently under contempt of Beis Din! Now, those so called ”Rabbonim” have suddenly become plaintiffs! Even more so, Rabbi Ozdoba has been summoned by myself to a Beis Din of a Zablo for more than 2 years, and still refuses to respond up until today. This, even after and despite, a petition that was signed by over 1500 members of the Community, asking the Rabbonim to settle their differences by a Beis Din of Zablo.
This is a classic case where the perpetrator is trying to act as the victim (as in the Moshol of the robbed Kozak), and turn the facts on its face, which must not, and cannot go unanswered.
In conclusion, the psak din that cancelled or deferred the elections, as well as the letters disqualifying certain candidates from running, are null and void. Therefore, the elections shall proceed according to the schedule, as set forth by the Netzigim, and no Rov has the right to interfere in the process in any way whatsoever, whether it is by delaying the process, or whether by disqualifying candidates, since these issues are within the exclusive domain of the Netzigim, and are not subject to rabbinical interference, as per the Rebbes clear directives in 5746.
With blessings for Hatzlocho in your work, and for the upcoming elections to take place without any fraud and deceit, through peace and unity in our community, we shall merit the ‘mmediate redemption through Moshiach Tzidkeinu.
Horav Aharon Yaakov Schwei, member of the Badatz
P.S. The injunction against certain members of the Netzigim, from acting in the capacity of Executive Committee, remains in full force and effect, until they appear at a Beis Din of Zablo to answer the claims of the current Executive Committee named above. The same din applies, to all those that were summoned to a Beis Din and have refused to appear, as per Shulchon Oruch (a Beis Din of Zablo is the only way to assure impartiality under the current circumstances). This does not constitute an interference with the Election process at all, as I am only advising of the halachic status of those persons who are in contempt of Beis Din. The final decision remains with the Netzigim, as to who is eligible to be a candidate, and when and where elections should be held.
Awed
Strange. Rabbi Schwey managed to respond to Rabbi Osdoba’s letter more than a year before he wrote it.
Amazing.
R’ Osdoba wrote his letter in iyar 5769 and R’ Schey wrote his letter in Shvat 5768. Not only a Rav also a Navi.
Me
How is Rabbi Schwei’s letter a response to Rabbi Osdoba when he wrote the letter over a year ago????
What a Chutzpah
I would never think that crownheights.info wold have such a Chutzpah to make up what a Rav wort
Big problam
It’s not that one of them is right and the other is wrong, the problem is that they both have valid complaints against each other, nobody is completely clean.
NRN
New Rabbonim now!
Shmuel
Pirud bein Reshaim hanaah lahem Vehanaah laolam
tzvi
A year ago Rabbi Osdoba wrote a psak din after he summoned Sufrin to a din tora. Who was the plaintiff is not known till today. Maybe Moshe Rubashkin or Segal or Rabbi Osdoba himself. So being that Rabbi Osdoba accuses Rabbi Schwei in that psak din Rabbi Schwei had no other choice then to answer.
Basya W
Children, let’s get along now!!! Time to hug and make up! So let’s make one bais din already. I don’t like this split and nor should there be such letter’s to two people in the same position of authority. Moshiach please!!! Ad Mosai!!!
ELIEZER
Lets not be stupid this letter from Rabbi Osdoba is all about not having elections until he has HIS people running and under control. The rest is only excusses. All the 2’s he is refering in his letter were caused only by him himself. He ignored Rabbi Schweis opinion regarding the ‘election’ in the BAIS DIN where both were equal partners, removed Rabbi Schweis name from the stationary and added his new Rabbonim forming a NEW Bais Din. Real ‘lo sisgodedu’. In a letter he instructed Moshe Rubashkin that he has no obligation to participate and work with the netzigim (after many requests to show the books as per the bylaws) so he went and destroyed the netzigim and illigaly create his own new entity. He allowed his netzigim not to show up to a zablo called by the duly elected netzigim, he allowed Moshe Rubashkin and company not to show to a din tora zablo when they were called by their fellow members of the Vaad Hakohol destroying the Vaad and allowing Rubashkin to run the CHJCC/VAAD HAKOHOL in a despot way one man controling all the institutions and the funds without having to give any din vecheshbon. Let no one take away the right to vote the Rebbe gave every resident of CH. No Rov has the right to mix in the election for the kehila as clearly instructed by the Rebbe to Rabbi Osdoba himself for the FUTURE. “DIVRE HARAV VEDIVREY HATALMID DIVREY ME SHOIMIM”? TH EREBBE WILL WIN IT’S ONLY YOU EVERY RESIDENT THAT CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN.
itche
The issues at stake are obvious. I don’t understand how can Rabbi Osdoba and his Rabbonim paskn when they are the biggest nogim bedovor here? or even the palintiffs themself?
u all want MONTREAL-S TSAROS?? w/o BD===
who ever thinks that its worth destoying the beis din further
see whats going on in montreal when there is NO NADDA NOTHING of a bes din to talk of!
(the only positive is the women dress with respect)
http://www.crownheights.inf…
Feigie
Uch in Vay
PROUD &OPTIMISTIC MONTREALER &OUTRAGED!!
why exactly are you mixing in montreal’s tzoros??
i read the link, and i dont thin the school faid bc of NO BD! c’mon!
there is lots more good going for montreal besides your cheap compliment!
i can guaranty you that the new elementary school to replace the closing one is gono be better than any of those in your town!
don’t judge us by the present crises!
http://www.crownheights.inf…
this link is proof of immanent change!
Flabbergasted
I thought I was reading a PURIM edition…unbelievable.
shlomo
can rabbi ozdoba leave us alone with his stupid babyish fight. we want to vote and let him mind his own
me
when is this going to stop all thay are doing is turning off the young people who are dying to leave ch
Go Home
Rav Osdoba has destroyed our community enough for his self interes, its time to tell him : “Go Home Mister”
Enough is enough
Alon Friedman
Zaki Tamir for VAAD HAKOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kiddush Ha shem
The Open Forum was a real kiddush ha shem
true unity
meshichistim, anti, lefty,righty, ALL together
I have never seen so many people attend an open forum
Yasher ko ach
CH Resident
It’s time that we called in another bes din from ourside our community to resolve and mediate this cancer.
It’s never going to end otherwise…
a poshite yid
Machlokes that distinguished Rabbonim have between each other-
Web sites like this that fuel and magnify this behavior by reporting it to the masses-
Jewish communities like CH where the peoples have very little respect for one another-
Religious women that dress with no tzinius and very provocative-
at the minimum it is a R’L a set up for great calamaties that the aibershter has proven time and time again to invoke on the people.
With hopes that the aibershter will have great pity and not punish the people
With hope that people (all people, even and especially the leaders ) will cease and desist immediatly from not having ahhavas yisroel.
with hope that web sites stop promoting and spreading loshon horah….
who saya this?
what happens here happens in israel!
its incredible
what bais din??
and then we wonder why we have so many other problems such as kids at risk and tznius. no one has respect for anyone. it all comes down to greed and power. when people feel like it they quote “the rebbe said”. stop that already. you use the Rebbe when it fits your agenda. I refuse to bring my children up in CH because of all this. I will be moving as soon as I can.
happy
what a sad place to live. my son read this and asked me whats going on i said its a crazy place.
what bais din??
and then we wonder why we have so many other problems such as kids at risk and tznius. no one has respect for anyone. it all comes down to greed and power. when people feel like it they quote “the rebbe said”. stop that already. you use the Rebbe when it fits your agenda. I refuse to bring my children up in CH because of all this. I will be moving as soon as I can.
mendel
It only makes sense to have a election once in a while, how ever it is a joke when all you need to enter it is 150 signatures. one of the canidates is a real nebach. I did not have the heart to say no to him when he asked me to sign his paper. there should have been a better process of alimination before the names came out. I wonder how the comedy skit “meet the studges” went on sunday night.
what bais din??
and then we wonder why we have so many other problems such as kids at risk and tznius. no one has respect for anyone. it all comes down to greed and power. when people feel like it they quote “the rebbe said”. stop that already. you use the Rebbe when it fits your agenda. I refuse to bring my children up in CH because of all this. I will be moving as soon as I can.
mendel
lets go crown heights.info shmeir our dirt all over the web good job chilul lubavitch
whe did it start
Since Rabbi SHvei was elected in a election where only he ran there has been machlokos. if he had real emes he would step down and have new elections with shvei segal zirkind and all the new rabbonim. and lets have a 3 rabbonim like every other bes din.
Who-s on third?
What ever happened to Rav Heller? He was elected to the original bais din.
humbeled
B“H
Rabbi Osdabo is a yeira shemiyim. He gives Jews the courage to follow halacha with strenth and dignity. He does not allow us to cater to the yeitzer horah of another yet he is maikel where it affects the well being of another. It is such a beautiful art. I am so thankful to be able to show my children a true pillar of strength, especially in such confusing times. ”AND IN A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE NO MEN, STRIVE TO BE A MAN”
RESPECT
By the last rabonim elections, Rabbi Schvai said don’t vote and Rabbi Osdibo said vote. Rabbi Heller said its better not to get involved in machlokis(ie don’t vote). I wonder what he says this year (probably the same). Is there a minimum amount of votes required? What happens if most people will listen to Rabbi Odoba and not vote?
In any case, we have to act with more respect to each other and all rabonim especialy durring sfera. This is a Machlokis Rabonim and we should go according to the rove. ie Rabbi Heller.
Frustrated?
MaN-OH-MaN!
Wev’ve got ourselves a mess!
I agree with ”whe did it start wrote:
Since Rabbi SHvei was elected in a election where only he ran there has been machlokos. if he had real emes he would step down and have new elections with shvei segal zirkind and all the new rabbonim. and lets have a 3 rabbonim like every other bes din.”
We know how Rabbanim have an obligation to help their people; if the people are havving issues then you guide them! and don’t argue and knock another-Ye I believe if the Rabbanim were REAL they would have made shalom-for the sake of the community
Menachem
Rabbonim should have no role in the CHJCC. It should be a secular organization. The rabbonim can do all they want with the Vaad Hakahol. That’s a different matter.
In the meantime, the CHJCC is into bupkes, nobody is running it. Robashkin had no right to place his family on the staff- he should have been removed totally from the CHJCC when he plead guilty- but Lang didn’t have the moxie to listen to the Met Council, JCRC, UJA, etc.
Crown Heights is the most politically irrelevant Jewish community in the city. Voting numbers are low and the politicians know it. The easiest way to buy the community is to invite Sperlin to an event where he can have a photo taken. Then Sperlin’s happy, the pols think they have an “in” and nothing ever becomes of it.
Unless some new group of men and women step up to the front –people with no record with the Bestites or the Shufrinites–nothing’s going to change. And the community suffers.
Dovid
Aren’t the moderators of this website equally guilty of spreading lashon hara and hotzaat shem ra as all the people who leave the nasty comments? If this website is allegedly run by Chabad Chassidim, then why are the comments so the opposite of Chassidut? Before you post something, ask yourself if it is something you would say in front of the Rebbe… (and if you are a moderator of this site, doesn’t that mean that you look at the comments before you allow them on the site????)
yossi yosevich
what’s the deal.. I don’t know the history behind all this.
Right on, Humbled!
B“H
I agree with ”Humbled“:
When a Rov, in this case, Rov Osdoba, takes a stand on Halacha, and provides that example to the rest of the Yidden, then we don’t ”fall“. If we don’t stand for something (i.e., upholding halacha), we’ll fall for anything!
PS — I also respect Rov Schwei very much. He is known to be very knowledgeable, and also has good advice. I talk to whichever of these two I can reach first, whenever I have a ”Rov” shaaloh; I respect Rov Schwei and Rov Osdoba equally.
I’d consult with Rav Heller, if my Yiddish were better . . . .
Boruch N. Hoffinger
BS“D
I was at the Vaad HaKohol Candidate Meeting at Beit Chaya Mushka on Yom Rishon, May 18th, ’09. The speakers were marvelous and seemed like wonderful Jews, B”H.
After reading Rabbi Aharon Yaakov Schwei’s, SHLITA, letter I was thrown in one direction from my previous sentiments. I voted for Rav Schwei and have always respected him and all the rabbonim.
The whole affair causes me much pain. I want to see Shal-m in our community. This is The Rebbe’s, MH“M’s desire and this is A PROFOUND ISSUE!
My wife and I raised, B”H, six Chassisha children here and we both take GREAT PRIDE IN THIS COMMUNITY.
I’ve known Rav Osdaba for over 30 years and have the HIGHEST REGARD FOR HIM AS A RAV AND AS A YID.
Like one comment said: “whe did it start wrote:
Since Rabbi SHvei was elected in a election where only he ran there …”
I’m not blaming Rav Shvei, but since Rab Osdaba is the Av Beit Din and he was there first, the second rav should be bittle to him.
I don’t want to get involved with this problem and get into a ‘machlokes’ G-d forbid, so I won’t vote.
I know and trust Rav Osdaba. A few important people here told me to listen to Rav Osdaba and wait. They will strighten this mess up.
So, with pain in my heart and a hope for a wonderful future let myself and all my brothers and sisters in Crown Heights, be patient, trust Rav Osdaba, who’s been here many years, and sincerely work towards making Crown Heights a community that The Rebbe, MH”M, can be proud of.
Don’t let the ‘yetzer’ defeat you. Be strong and proud.
Let’s all put a joy and happiness in our ‘avoda,’ relationships, etc.
Moshiach Auchshov!
b. hoffinger
A child
Congratulations you all. The community has been destroyed, we kids want nothing to do with it, we are all trying to make lives for ourselves where none of this happens.
Are we naive in believing that we can?
I hope not. And i hope that nobody convinces us that we are.
And i now ask you, what are you doing this for if it isn’t for us?
nachman
Shvei is not a rov after he gave haskama to the shalita book
crown heights
first- I’d like to commend crownhheights.info and other such blogs for telling us what is going on in our own community. If people are poskining that this is loshon hara then why are they reading it. I think it is important to hear both sides of the story in order to make an informed decision about what to do- in this case -vote.
second- the way people are talking about the election in which Rav Schwei was elected you would think that Rav Osdoba did not participate, which he did, and that he was not given a shtar Rabbanus- which he received. If Rav Osdoba and Rav Heller had the authority to give a shtar Rabbonus (in a large ceremony in 770) why is there a question as to the legitamacy of Rav Schwei’s appointment. It isn’t as if Rabbanus is a cushy job where he makes tons of money. It is a lifetime 24/7 position where he had to give up his job to take and has to rely on handouts to live. Why does he do it- He cares about carrying out the Rebbe’s orders to follow H-shem’s will! Why are people trying to kick him out of that position- when he was appointed by a 97% approval rating! I think the only people who voted against him cared more about him than the scechuna. – the reason people are trying to get him out is because they thought they were getting a yes-man who would quietly and obediantly go along with whatever they said instead of a lion who would fight for the truth and Torah and not be swayed by the amount of money people have in their bank accounts.
Therefore let the facts stand.
Elie
Let all those who attack Osdoba now admit that he erred in his machloket with Chabad Organizations, endorsing the messianic school in Chicago and other unforgivable actions.
Renegade
to all those saying R’ Schwei’s election was illegitimate because he was the only one running:
1. There was an option to vote “no” for those who did not want him.
2. He needed (and got) the majority of ELIGIBLE voters, not just the majority of votes cast. Meaning anybody that didn’t show up to vote in effect casted a “no” vote, A majority of the community’s eligible voters came out specifically to vote for him.
3. Just because the Machlokes started when he was elected that doesn’t mean he is the one to blame -nor does it invalidate his election.
another Montreal
Why Montreal? What in the world does that have to do with anything?
And what new school?! I live here and there is no new school being started any time soon. The school is restructuring, needs support, and is getting it from many, but some want to stab it while its weak.
Nachman
Shvei’s Haskama on the stupid book “shalita” which embarasses the Rebbe, disqualifies him from being a Rabbi.
Vote Shea Hecht for Rov!!
We need change. Someone with sechel. We need SHea Hecht!
rabbi Azdoboh fan.
To all those foolish people out there writing against our Morah de`asroh rabbi Azdoboh:
know that he was here for 23 years and that the rebbe spoke about him together with the other two rabbonim rabbi heller and rabbi marlow A“H, and quite a few times the rebbe spoke that you should specifically respect rabbi Azdoboh shlitah.(see shabbos parshah sichos, Shlach TOV SHIN MEM VOV and chayei sarah tov shin nun)
whoever writes against rabbi azdoboh is having a huge CHUTZPAH and RISHUS and is starting up with what the rebbe said!
and whoever says that rabbi Azdoboh CH”V destroyed our community? just look a bit deeper and youll see who really destroyed our community… i wont say B/C its lashon hara :)
just an opinion
IMO, the only way to resolve the underlying machlokes issues would be to bring in an outside, impartial board of directors to run the community council with transparency and impartiality until things settle down and there is proper structure and accountability in our major communal organization.
We need to regain our own self-respect as a community and earn the respect of those outside the community. Unfortunately we aren’t doing a very good job of it ourselves.
cleanup costs
The very fact that after 23 years a rov needs a kovod rabbonim campaign is sufficient indication of utter failure. Has he so little respect earned by his actions that we need to waive flags and post quotes from the Rebbe just to maintain his dignity?
This alone is more than enough reasons for him, or any person with self respect, to step away. Perhaps all he needs is a severance package, and the askonim should put together just that. For more even handedness, they should do the same to the other rov [and a half?]. Well, their shares are worth less, so it is not quite even handed; so r. Osdoba will be more distinguished in that way.
It will then be feasible to elect an entirely new beis din. Until then no progress is possible, and any election will surely be contested.
Those in power have too much invested in the current system, and will never give up peacefully. It is ultimately cheaper to buy their stake, and ensure that none of the rabbonim or their proxies have control over revenue in future, including CHK. The new beth din will need a financial receiver, a manager hired preferably from outside Crown Heights who would provide regular statements to the Vaad.
Collectively, we need to pay reasonable salaries to the new rabbonim and audit finances publicly if we do not want the beis din to become corrupt again. It appears that few are really interested in a functioning beis din. There are slogans repeated quoting the Rebbe that we need rabbonim, but in real life nobody cares enough. It will already cost quite a lot to save the institution from further disgrace.
chossid
Is it at all possible to leave the Rebbe out of this? it seems as if he’s being pulled from both sides. Can no machlokes causing statement be validated without the Rebbes ‘haskomah’ on it?
Chutzpah Yasgei
to chossid and to cleanup costs: im just a teenager, yet i realize that you do not take the Rebbe’s words seriously because unlike the other posters who quote the rebbe without sources, “rabbi Osdoba fan” gave two obvious sources which you would have looked up if you really cared. to say to keep the rebbe out of this is so stupid cause the rebbe was into it.its like saying keep the aibishter out of this. look up shabbos sichoh chayei sarah tov shin nun where the rebbe says that whoever says that a rov should do teshuvah, its a chutzpah Hachi Gedolah and if you care enough to find out the story youll see that it was talking about rabbi azdoboh
To add:
To cleanup costs. Re: your respectful invitation to R. Osdoba to leave. Your intentions are unabashedly to destroy the Badatz, what do you think “reconstructing” it means?. And you’re proving what these elections you want are about. and why all of the agitators of the last eight years are demanding them. Of course these elections should be assured!
Very often, at farbrengens the Rebbe would exclaim “Yesh Baal HaBayis l’Birah Zu”. Just wanted to remind you that everything goes is not the way G-d. Where did you learn to speak the way you do about a Rov, YOUR Rov, under whose authority you were for 23 years before you decided it was okay to undermine him with a “replacement”? Do you think you will never have to give an accounting? DO you believe there’s an Aibershter?!!!!
one thing i know is that when moshiach comes and if the rebbe asks me why i respected rabbi asdobo ill just reply: rebbe, you told me to do so” but if the question is asked opposite to you, tell me what will you answer?!
there are people that crown the rebbe as king Melech Hamoshiach, yet when it comes to following one of the rebbes clear horaos… yes a rov does have Bechiroh and so on, and the rebbe knew that. but its none of a baalabostehs business to tell a rov with a chutzpah, he should do teshuvah.
The Rebbe said clearly that the Rabbonim(referring to Rabbis, Marlow, Heller and yes R. Osdobo) don’t need Daas Baalei Batim advice, (even when you, the baalabayis think they are wrong, THEY are the Rabbonim.) And Kal V’Chomer, Daas Baalei Batim so extreme as to want to UPROOT a Beis din, and not just any Beis Din, but one that has been standing for 23 years as you yourself say, is diametrically opposed to the way of the Torah, as is any attempt that has shamefully been made to divide it, in the most recent years.
just remember, the world is not Hefker,
cleanup costs
“rebbe, you told me to do so”
That is classic… You are holding the Rebbe responsible for this mess? You can dump everybody else’s faults on him as well. Go on, waive your flags and yell the Rebbe’s name as an excuse for all. You will have to answer for yourself, the Rebbe or r Osdoba will not do it for you there.
There is no disrespect; any public leader can fail, including a rov. He is a person, not just a machine installed by the Rebbe. And a rov ought to have respect of the kehilla in his own right. If he cannot manage even that much after so many years, that is called a failure. It may not even be his fault. Great rabbonim have failed in the past with their communities and found other kehilos or occupations.
The conflict, to my grober baalabatishe mind is mostly financial and is a consequence of mundane corruption. I am suggesting exactly the same for the other rov as well, and a respectable severance compensation for both. There can be no other sane reason for the rabbonim to hold on to such despised and humiliating positions.
The only other explanation that a rov would have so little self-respect is that he is held there under duress. All the more reason for the community to rescue them.
yainkel
sorry but i see in rabbi asdobo’s letter lomdus, mekoros and reasonable questions.
in shver i mean shvei’s letter i see a nice long drusheh with a bunch of lies and a hack Arein of few scraps and peices of a sichoh. he doesnt even answer rabbi asdobos questions.
Chutzpah Yasgei
yes cleanup costs, ill put it on the rebbes shoalders.
believe me the rebbes shoalders are broad enough.
Divrei Tzadikim Kayomim Lo-ad, what the rebbe said then still applies now. people like you thought the same things then.
now lets see how you can twist this around. oy hashem yishmor!
Chutzpah Yasgei
sorry “cleanup costs” im not putting it on the rebbes shoalders.i meant: the rebbe took it upon his shoalders. it wasnt me.
kay now i wanna see an answer with some sechel in it.
cleanup costs
Chutzpah Yasgei,
How do you know what I think now or then?
And why would you bother about elections or fairness if you think anyway that this is the way the Rebbe intended, with an inept and dysfunctional beis din that has no authority?
At least you could show some respect for the Rebbe, and not dismiss his injury just because tzadikim can handle any abuse, as you say.
Chutzpah Yasgei
to answer your questions:
#1. i corrected my self in the second comment i made:“i meant: the rebbe took it upon his shoulders. it wasn’t me.” it wasnt i that put it on the rebbes shoulders. i just found it clearly in the sichoh.
2nd. your not even counting in the fact that the rebbe says its none of your business even if you think the rov did something wrong,thats why you say that its a dysfunctional B”D b/c you think that everything they do is wrong. ( and thats why im telling you , chochom, that it is a very functional BD and the rebbe approved of that and you are one of those simple Ballabatim that thinks he knows a bit better than the rebbe and has this chutzpah hachi gedolah. and the BD DOES have authority but its people like you that want to destroy it (and from the way you write, i see your a big hack a cheinicker)
cleanup costs
Well, I guess it is useless…
The beis din is disfunctional simply because it commands little respect, whether the rebbe approved of it or no, and no matter who did something wrong. Any psak is disputed or mostly disregarded.
I have no idea what is that wrong that you say r Osdoba did, but must be ignored because of a sicha. I think you are thoroughly confused. Rabbonim have to deserve some respect in the community, and should not need spokesmen for this. The fact that you and others scream tautologies is enough indication of a major failure. Maybe it is not their failure, and the kehilla is not up to them, but the institution has failed. RZSh, who they were chosen to replace, certainly did not need campaigns to heighten his kovod.
And what is so special in the way I write?
Is publicity always beneficial
You ought to be ashmaed of yourself for dividing an already divided community. WHY IN THE WORLD DOES THIS DISCUSSION HAVE TO HAPPEN AND END UP ON OUR HAITERS BLOGS AND WEBSITES. YOU SHOULD REMOVE THIS AND DON’T PUT SUCH NEWS ON YOUR WEBSITE. Genug Shoin.
If this goes on and on and on, then.....
Perhaps the only beis din that all will listen to is a secular court. Let the secular courts work out a compromise and then let’s move on — together.
Hanni
bs’d Such a chillul Hashem, to bring Rabbi Osdoba to a Din Torah!! I don’t know the dynamics of it, and it’s sad that my negative experience with Rabbi Shvei has formed my obvious opinion of him, but the Beis Din was hand picked by the Rebbe personally, and he said that this is the Beis Din until Moshiach comes….. So Rebbi Shvei was brought on when they needed a third Rov, and now he seems to be spreading Loshon Hora about Rabbi Osdoba, and amaaaaazing person, amazing Rov, shocking!