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Blog: What the Bochur’s Reference Isn’t Telling You

by T. Cohen

Photo: John O’Dyer

Every parent only wants the best for their child, and every (good) Shadchan only wants the best for their client. But when you guys call me and ask these strange questions about my friend – who put my name on his reference list even though I hardly know him (and perhaps for that reason) – please keep in mind that what I’m saying and what I am thinking might not be on the same page.

The awkward conversation usually begins with me asking who it is; you ignore my question and ask me if I have a few minutes – or is it a bad time? It is, but let’s get this over with.

“Are you a friend of so-and-so?”

Hello!!! I am on his reference list; chances are he isn’t a stranger and most definitely not an old nemesis.

“So, describe your friend.”

You, of course, want me to give a five minute monologue on all the little details and nuances of my friend, but this never happens. I will probably proceed to say: “Ask me! I’m not very good at describing people, but if you ask me questions, I can probably do a fair job answering them.“

“What kind of girl he is looking for?”

Remember, I’m a guy – I may be his roommate, but that doesn’t mean I know what type of girl he’s looking for, or what he would like to do with his life. Guys just don’t talk about these things with each other. Now, if you’d like to know how he likes his steak – well done or medium rare – that I can tell you!

Then the serious questions begin to flow, and the awkward pauses between answers get longer too. No conversation is complete without asking this mandatory one:

”Is he chassidish?“

If you don’t define what the word ”chassidish“ means in your dictionary, then I’ll just tell you ”yes,“ because he is ”chassidish“ according to at least one person’s definition of the word. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s “farchenyukt,” I will be quick point out, but “he has a certain down-to-earth chassidishness to him.” about %98.4 of Lubavitch Bochurim fit into this category, but it’s fine by you because that’s what the girl said she was looking for.

If I don’t explicitly say that he Davens ”on time“ (i.e. before 1 PM), that probably means he has no problem Davening right before (or even after) shkiah.

When I tell you that I don’t sit near him in 770, and would therefore not know how his attendance is, that probably means that he doesn’t regularly come.

I know you’re able to multi-task, but when I hear how you’re working on getting supper ready, and there’s a kid in the background shrieking ”mommy, mommy,“ I know that you’re not really listening to what I’m saying, so I will just drone on incoherently for a few minutes about how much mivtzoim he probably does.

“Does he drink a lot of L’chaim?”

If I don’t know for sure that he’ll still be getting wasted every shabbos after he’s married, then I’ll tell you that he doesn’t drink more than four. If I’m sure that he won’t give up his substance exploits once he’s married, then I’ll just have to redefine to myself what the size of each of those four L’chaims are.

Then the questions begin to get vague:

”What would you say is his most pronounced Midah?“

Please, if you want a Chassidus shiur on each of the 10 Sefiros, I can try to give that to you, but if all you want to know is whether he’s more kind than unkind, just ask that!

After they get vague, they begin to lean towards the ridiculous:

”If he was right for your sister, would you suggest him?“

What’s that supposed to mean? Obviously if I thought he was right for my sister I would suggest him! But the fact is I didn’t, probably because I am still somewhat fond of my sister, so I just ignore that one and talk about what a wonderful husband and father he would be.

Now it’s time to probe for the dirty little secrets:

“What are his negative aspects?”

Um, he’s my friend… Are you really expecting me to say something negative about him?!

But you get clever.

”What’s his biggest Chisaron?“

I go uh… um… errr.. for a while, pretending that it’s so hard to think of anything. “Finally” I think of something insignificant, but after learning so many sichos where the Rebbe takes anything bad and turns it into positive, I am able to cleverly spin it so that it can also come out to be a Maalah.

There is a long pause, I begin to fidget uncomfortably because I know the million dollar question is about to be dropped. The most important question of all, which will ultimately determine if my friend is worthy of dating your daughter:

“Is he a Mashichist?”

My mind goes into overdrive; I try to remember what your name was to see if I can figure which one is the “right” answer. Then I remember that you didn’t introduce yourself. My caller ID tells me you are calling from Toronto so I just assume you’re ”anti.“ I begin by saying that he is very mekushar to the Rebbe and learns his maamarim and sichos and goes to the ohel all the time, but he doesn’t feel it’s important to say ‘Yechi’ (“all the time” I add – just to be safe) because he is against politics and machlokes.

“Of course I am willing to answer your calls if you have any further questions.” You can call me until very late at night, but please don’t call me before 11 in the morning because I’m usually busy with my sleep routine.

”So basically you’re telling me that he’s an amazing guy?“

I’ll tell you ”yup,“ but what I would really love to answer is:

”No, what I’m telling you is that you don’t know how to ask questions!”

“Ask me how I think he would react in specific situations, you’ll probably get a much better understanding of the type of guy that he is.”

“And remember, I’ll probably tell my friend that someone called about him, and I’ll tell him what I thought of you!” (Yes, I know it’s not fair to judge a girl based on how her parents sounded on the phone, but life isn’t always fair…)

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29 Comments

  • A mother who is still looking...

    Well said! In “checking” on guys for either my daughter or her friends, I know that even though you (all the guys I call) are giving me the answers you think I want to hear (after all you are his friend and don’t have a clue who I am – so why would you tell me all the little dirty secrets?), I am reading between your lines, trying to hear some bit of truth. I so wish there was a better way to get to the real stuff. Often I will ask if you know anyone else who knows him, then ask that person the same thing. But most often I try to find someone whom I know and trust and who will give me the real scoop on the boy. Of course, if everyone (including the boy) would tell the real truth to begin with, then no one’s time would be wasted.

  • shlomo

    cool! was in this story form other side. get a list a q about midot. i came to one my geza frend and answer to all q. next day man call and want explanation. he even don’t knew words!!!! so why ask?:) lol
    for my experience in CH so many really stupid persons think that they real shadhanim(especially geza wife) and really only explore theys ego. nothing more……
    also all people so easy giva references, that it literally cost anything

  • Awkward Turtle

    I don’t get why people can’t introduce themselves on the phone. Just because your calling doesn’t mean it’s for your daughter. It’s very possible it’s for a friend’s daughter. It’s extremely uncomfortable for the bochur when the person your speaking to presumably knows who you are and you are speaking to some nameless person asking personal questions about your friend!

  • chaim

    To #2: If someone you never met came over to you randomly and asked if your brother was a good student in high school, what would you say? Would you say yes? I don’t know? I think? would you make him look better than he may have been?
    I don’t think you would lie but you might not be the most honest.
    Shiduchim is worse. You are asking questions that don’t have a correct answer to people that want to get the question right. They don’t want to lie. They want to protect.
    B”H I am married and have children of my own but when I was dating I did the interviews. I would call the references and even the prospective girl as well. You get a much better picture that way. (I did not reveal my identity{until the second date}).
    So good luck hunting and don’t expect good answers from anyone.

    To #3: what did you say?

    To the author: AMAZING article!!!

  • Annonymous callers.

    If i dont know who i’m talking to, i am NOT giving any real information, especially if its negative! i just dont go saying things about my friends just because you called and asked me nicely.
    if your calling as a stranger, i’ll answer like im talking to a stranger

    to #2, start by saying your name, and theres more of a chance that you wont be the one wasting anyones time

  • one of those mothers

    I sure hope I don’t sound that way. I think parents are hopefully smart enough to read between the lines. I can usually tell by how enthusiastic the bochur is when he answers. If someone is truly nice, or keeps seder, etc, you can tell by the response of the bochur if its true or if he is just trying to sound nice. But since you are so smart, perhaps you want to prepare a list of intelligent things for mothers or fathers to ask…

  • Sarah

    This article is really funny and an enjoyment to read! Well done and so to the point

  • anonymous

    People can’t handle the truth!
    No one is perfect, abd everyone has a secret…

  • shidduchim

    When making phone calls to people and asking questions about a prospective shidduch, logic should tell you that you aren’t going to get real information about this person’s personality or behaviour
    1- because they don’t want it to be involved in saying anything negative- (ofcourse its loshon hara – but if it was their kid they would want it told)
    2- if you aren’t apart of any special gesha group, or have enough money to throw around so that they will be impressed and help you, you aren’t going to get anything but the standard answers and doubletalk.- you’d also have to be a relative or a close friend of a close friend to know whats really going on in the community.
    3-Don’t believe negative information that is easily given over – chances are its distorted and was passed around until it no longer resembles even a particle of the truth.
    4-You don’t know who your really taking too so be carerful asking or mentioning what you heard because undoubtably the person you are taking to is somehow related to them and won’t offer that info so they can see what info you have to spill so they can relay it over.
    (you cannot believe how many people are connected by marriage within chabad or within the Jewish community its self- its a small world)
    5-someone once gave me a good piece of advice – you should look in your “own back yard ” before looking out side of it. At least you have more of an inkling about those who reside within your own community- probably why people married their kids off to cousins- not an advocate of inbreeding its not good for the genes.

  • Brasil!

    Comm´on go on stand up comedy!
    You´re amazing!!!!
    And, btw, it happens to me all the time… the same ridiculous questions. I never asked those thing about my wife and neither did she!!!

  • AshMan

    Do parents not trust their adult children? Why are we trying so hard to “prequalify” a date? Let the daters decide. Encourage them to take as much time as they need to date someone.

    My rabbi’s wife had a pretty simple and effective idea. You need a short list and a long list. The short list is 4-5 things that are deal breakers, the long list is for stuff you want, but can live without if it’s not there.

    Your short list needs to be honest, and between you and your potential soul mate. It should include things like (1) I do / do not want to be on shlichus, (2) I do / do not want to live a kollel life. It could even be things like (a) I do / do not want to go to night school, (b) I want / don’t want internet in the house, or (c) I will tolerate / not tolerate coming home every shabbos at 3 pm smelling like vodka and herring.

    Parents, if your adult kids are not capable of making adult decisions without you, they are no where near ready to get married. Treat them like adults, expect adult behavior, and you will get good results.

  • Ashman great!

    13# is Very much to the point!
    instead of making ur own deal-breakers etc let your daughter or son go out and decide for themselves!
    maybe after meeting each other your so called deal-breakers wont matter anymore!
    there are so many people i know who if they would have gone out would have been a perfect couple, but one of the sides parents decided for some stupid reason, that its not suitable!’its really sad to see these people not being able to find there bashert because of silly things like the above.

  • ADVICE from the WISE

    The friends don’t realize that there are no “right” answers – so they are best telling the truth.

    Is he chassidish? Lie and say “Yup” and you may have killed the perfect shidduch because the girl is also totally very non-chassidish.

    Same with, Does he watch movies, listen to non-Jewish music and read non-Jewish novels? You DON’T know what the “right” answer is, and its usually not the one you think it is, so best: Keep it real!

    And if you DO know something that you don’t want to mention, at the very least tell them to ask others out it. You cannot judge if they should or shouldn’t know about it and if it will impact the shidduch or not. Don’t be the one held responsible for a broken engagement or c”v a divorce. I know because it is a very heavy guilt trip to carry for a lifetime!

  • A Parent

    When I call you, a bochur from the references – I am checking YOU out: To see if you can hold a conversation? To see if you are polite (to a total stranger bothering him)? To see if you have “attitude”, snarkiess, impatientce, derech eretz, mentchlichkeit etc.?

    The questions I ask you are not noygeya – it’s how YOU speak and interact.

    I have 3 daughters who found their shidduchim by me calling the references and being impressed with the bochur from the references!!

  • no one special

    Can’t go wrong when you tell the truth. “I don’t know” is also truth.

  • To #17 I don-t know!

    How can I say “I don’t know” when I am the bochur’s roommate and chavrusa?!

    Does he snore at night? Truth is – yes, but “I don’t know!”

    Is he a bed wetter? Truth is – yes, but “I don’t know!”

    Is he on meds? Truth is – at least 6 pills a day, but “I don’t know!”

    Is he considerate to his roommate? Truth is he usually opens light in room no matter what time it is or who is sleeping, and then listens to Matisyahu without earbuds, but “I don’t know!”

    This is who used me as his reference!!!

  • funny!

    I might not call you for references, but I would definitely call you for a good laugh! This article is entertaining!!!!

  • Mother, should be open

    When i get a call and i dont know who it is im talking to, theres no way im giving real info. how can i?
    but when someone calls me and says,
    Hi, this is “so and so” and i was told to call you about your friend… please tell me… etc. then i feel comfortable saying the whole truth.

    this is just the way i feel…

  • Realistic parent

    If people told the truth no shidduchim would be made! The Aibishter leads you to hear what you want to hear when it’s the right one. The couples figures out all the rest after the chasene when all those silly protim are irrelevant.
    For guidance on how to tell or not tell important and critical info, consult your local Chassidhe Rov.
    Moshiach Now, use your talent for more of the same!!!

  • In a nutshell :)

    This is so true it’s scary. And I’m on the girl end of it. Not exactly the same, but pretty close!

    People also are not very thoughtful about the fact that the person they are calling about is my friend! I had a young girl, I would venture to say still in high school, call me and ask all kinds of inappropriate and rude questions about one of my best friends. The she asked if she was pretty and if I could send a picture. I was so upset and I told her I would have to ask my friend first and have her ok the picture (which is what I would want someone to do for me) the girl on the phone just said, “nevermind, I’ll get it from someone else.” I was so disturbed by the call and so happy when that shidduch didn’t come to fruition. My friends deserve better! Please people don’t have your 16 daughter check out shidduch refrences, they’re 16!!!!!!!!!!

  • #2 here..

    To #6: I ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS identify myself. And if someone calls me for a reference but doesn’t identify him/herself, I won’t talk with that person. I think its quite unreasonable to think that someone should/would give out personal information to anyone who doesn’t even have the decency to say who he/she is.

  • Reference reflects candidate

    Honestly, I am going to judge him/her by you! You are what he/she came up with for a reference. That has got to say a lot about him/her.